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Power Transportation

Becoming America's #2 Seller of Electric Vehicles, Ford Passes Kia in November (cnbc.com) 73

Posted by EditorDavid from the car-pace dept.
CNBC reports: Ford Motor said Friday that it has achieved CEO Jim Farley's goal of becoming the second best-selling automaker of electric vehicles in the U.S. The Detroit automaker, citing third-party industry data, narrowly topped Hyundai/Kia to hit the goal....

Ford said its share of the electric vehicle segment was 7.4% through November, up from 5.7% a year earlier. Ford reported sales of 53,752 all-electric vehicles in the U.S. through November. Tesla, which does not break out domestic results, reported global deliveries of more than 908,000 EVs through the third quarter.

Hyundai's sales do not include the Nexo hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. The company says with that vehicle, it slightly outsold Ford in battery- and fuel cell-powered vehicles of 54,043 units through November. The sales come after the South Korean automaker lost incentives that gave buyers of its EVs tax credits of up to $7,500 under the Biden administration's Inflation Reduction Act, which took effect in August. Vehicles such as Ford's EVs that are produced in North America still qualify for the credit.
The article notes that General Motors — America's second-largest automaker — also "plans to significantly step up EV production in the coming years."

Although so far, through the third quarter of this year, "it reported sales of less than 23,000 EVs."
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Becoming America's #2 Seller of Electric Vehicles, Ford Passes Kia in November More

Becoming America's #2 Seller of Electric Vehicles, Ford Passes Kia in November

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  • So they are REALLY a bargain.
    Ford expects its electric vehicles to generate a positive Gross Margin only by 2026.

    • Re:They lose $11000 on every car (Score:5, Informative)

      by MikeDataLink ( 536925 ) on Saturday December 03, 2022 @05:11PM (#63099844) Homepage Journal

      So they are REALLY a bargain. Ford expects its electric vehicles to generate a positive Gross Margin only by 2026.

      You can certainly spin it like that. But its disingenuous at best. It costs money to build factories and infrastructure. They are not free.

      If I spend $200K building a sandwich shop and the first year I am paying back my original investment, then yes... I lost $10 per sandwich sold. The next year though I am profitable.

      And that's exactly what Ford has said. They plan to be 8% up in 2023 instead of 25% down. You have to pay back investment costs. And that's not really losing money unless you need to paint a political picture.

      • they lose money on every car but make it up in volume... ha ha

        Seriously, on the news: good for Ford. They seem to be the only non-luxury EV (not worth discussing Porche, etc) brand that seems to have a real chance at being competitive against Tesla. Rivian and Lordstown stuff don't have a chance. Leaf seems determined to only sell to econerds. Bolt had a bit of a chance around 2019 when Tesla's rebates expired but wasn't that great a car. I think it's going to be a slaughter once the tax incentives are reap

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by hey! ( 33014 )

          they lose money on every car but make it up in volume... ha ha

          No, what MikeDataLink is talking about is captured by the old accounting riddle:

          Q: When are fixed costs variable and variable costs fixed?

          A:When they're *unit* costs.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Junta ( 36770 )

          They seem to be the only non-luxury EV

          Things look promising for GM with their Equinox, Silverado, and Blazer. Things look pretty likely that GM will beat Tesla to the punch in EV pickup too.

          I think long term Ford may be making some mistakes long term by copying *too* much from Tesla. Splitting EV and non-EV into separate business concerns seems premature, given how much commonality there is between ICE and EV vehicles. Forcing dealerships to spend a *lot* of money to become fast charging stations both aggravates the dealerships, and doesn't n

          • I'm hopeful for GM. People hate GM, but I have a Malibu and an Acadia (both with over 100K on the clock) and like them a lot. Everything is where it should be, and parts are cheap and available. We also have a Mini, and it's too clever by half. So many things made odd just to be different.

        • The new Bolt looks pretty good, actually:

          https://arstechnica.com/cars/2... [arstechnica.com]

          That and the new Prius Prime; if the automakers could fix the supply chain issues than 2023 looks like it could be a standout year for range-extended EVs.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Maybe it's different in the US, but in Europe there are lots of affordable brands that are doing better than Tesla in that segment of the market. Well, Tesla doesn't even have an affordable model in Europe. The Model 3 is expensive.

          You have the Korean manufacturers, Kia and Hyundai. There is Nissan and Renault, the pioneers. The Leaf is showing its age now, but the 40kWh and 62kWh are very practical cars and heavily discounted. They have their new Ariya out too.

          MG, which is a Chinese brand, are doing really

          • "There's also VW with their ID line."

            They lose even more than $11000 per car.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              Do you have a citation for that? It seems unlikely, they have been pushing them heavily and rapidly expanding the line. The sale price seems reasonable to make a profit on them.

              • "Do you have a citation for that? "

                Most of the articles are in German only, sorry.

                Generally speaking, it's around 10% loss of the car's value.

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  I can read German, so feel free to post those articles.

                  • https://www.focus.de/auto/elek... [focus.de]

                    Sorry, don't remember which keywords I used yesterday, I seem to find today only the one above.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                      Thanks. It's not clear how they are losing money here, maybe it means they have not recouped the R&D cost or new production line build cost yet. In which case that would be normal for a new car platform, they have extremely expensive to develop and for that reason most are decades old. The move to EVs is a bigger shift than most.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          They seem to be the only non-luxury EV (not worth discussing Porche, etc) brand that seems to have a real chance at being competitive against Tesla.

          Actually, Ford is fairly lusury given the only EVs ford makes are the Lightning and Mach-E. Both of which are on the high end scale of things, unless you go with the base model which at least isn't as stratospheric.

          The non-luxury EVs, are what Ford has beat - Hyundai/Kia with the Ioniq and EV6. The only reason they don't sell that many is their production is con

      • If I spend $200K building a sandwich shop and the first year I am paying back my original investment, then yes... I lost $10 per sandwich sold. The next year though I am profitable.

        That's not how P&L accounting works.

        I spend $20k to build a sandwich shop and now I have an asset worth $200k, so it didn't cost me any profits. The shop is then depreciated over some time (10 year, 20 years, depending on how long the equipment and building lasts) and that depreciation DOES reduce my profit.

        • Typo: that first $20k should be $200k.

        • That's not how P&L accounting works.

          It most certainly is. It's called Cash based accounting. What you described is accrual based accounting.

          • You think Ford uses cash-based accounting for its factories? Really?

            • You think Ford uses cash-based accounting for its factories? Really?

              No. They are simply two ways of looking at the same data though. Do you think just because you accrue something you magically have more (or less) money?

              • My point remains: when companies talk about making a profit, they are working on the basis of asset depreciation, and are not using a cash basis when accounting for equipment.

        • Seems to be the only other guy who took accounting 101

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by trawg ( 308495 )

        GP post aside, this is almost too obvious for words, but it made me wonder about Tesla - I know one thing about Tesla that everyone always says is they make a healthy profit on every car sold. Is this because they have already paid back all the investment capital they borrowed & does it take into account whatever debt they're holding?

        Obviously if you look at it from a pure cost of input materials and labour perspective it's much easier to turn a profit on the cars. I always assumed Tesla's profitable ca

  • A notice that further updates to the cars software was a $150 subscription

    As I said before. No more fords for me

  • Ford is just in second place dealing with supply chain issues, dealerships are devoid of many new models and the wait times are up to and exceed a year. Dealers can’t sell what they don’t have, at least legally in many areas. You manage to buy one and drive it off the lot and it goes up $5-10k, not like the last 70 years where it dropped in value driving off the lot. At this point it’s very hard to buy a new car that isn’t being scalped, It’s not just EVs.

    • I am sure all those dealerships are just thrilled to have all these customers come in trying to buy EVs they can't deliver or make a profit on even if they could. And in the process diluting interest in all the ICE product in inventory.

      It wasn't long ago that a dealership network was considered essential for a car brand. On top of that in many states it is still legally mandated. Now it is pretty much a liability.

      • And in the process diluting interest in all the ICE product in inventory.

        What ice inventory? It’s across the board, and extends far beyond just automakers. Dealerships in my area are devoid of most of the models they are supposed to be selling, and that is the average case nation wide.

        • There are waiting lists for all kinds of cars all over the world. It feels like the good old days when the waiting time for a Trabant was 10 years or more.

    • The FED has a plan to fix all those issues: keep pushing up interest rates until there is a recession.

      • People just recite this as if it were a fact, but you know it's an exaggeration, right? The Fed is seeking the balance point between recession and inflation.

        • The Fed has said that they will keep pushing interest rates to "fix" the "problem" of people having too much savings. That sounds like a recession to me:
          https://www.npr.org/2022/11/02... [npr.org]

          "We see today that there is a bit of a savings buffer still sitting for households, that may allow them to continue to spend in a way that keeps demand strong," said Esther George, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City. "That suggests we may have to keep at this for a while."

          https://www.politico.com/news/... [politico.com]

          Bu

          • Trillions given for Covid related corporate socialism, filtering down to a handful of people but when it comes to bring balance to supply and demand the middle class and below is squeezed to make up the difference. It is the pump of inequality in action taking from the poor masses (from which all of the American economy actually arises) to give to the rich few.

        • Saw this today. The Fed has history in creating recessions:
          https://www.politico.com/news/... [politico.com]

  • Don't buy Ford or GM. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I used to work for Hyundai. I know who has good warranties and few issues. I'd go for a Hyundai or Kia, otherwise a Toyota. Domestic cars are shit nowadays. It's sad because they used to be good.

  • My dad sold Ford for 33 years (Score:3, Insightful)

    by p51d007 ( 656414 ) on Saturday December 03, 2022 @07:25PM (#63100172)
    I've driven nothing but Mustang's since 1984. I wouldn't have an EV of any kind unless a couple things are solved. QUICK charge, close to or equal to the time it takes to refuel a gas vehicle. LESS expensive battery replacement. RANGE increase. And by range, I mean in ANY weather condition. Night, day, hot, cold. What's the use if you can't use the AC, heat, lights without a huge decrease in range. Also with a full load of passengers. FIX the "infrastructure". Charging stations are too far away. EV's aren't the answer. Hybrids SHOULD be what they use now, until the above are fixed. Until then, I'll stick with a gas powered vehicle.

    • Re:My dad sold Ford for 33 years (Score:5, Insightful)

      by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Saturday December 03, 2022 @08:46PM (#63100342) Journal

      I won't buy another ICE until I can have it refuel itself overnight while parked overnight in my garage.

      It's easy to come up with a set of unreasonable requirements to justify your biases.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Duds ( 100634 )

        This is something that occurred to me this morning. Yeah an EV might not do the 400 miles my car does, but right now my car will do 50 unless I stop to fill up.

        If I had an EV, 250 miles would be sat out there right now.

        • If I had an EV, 250 miles would be sat out there right now.

          Never having to go to the gas station is an incredible convenience.

          Even on long journeys, stopping somewhere that I can get nice food while the car charges is much nicer than stopping at a gas station, then taking the choice between going somewhere else for nice food (total time stopped is greater than in an EV) or eating the gas station's disgusting hot dogs.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      QUICK charge, close to or equal to the time it takes to refuel a gas vehicle.

      For some folks, this is a problem, but for homeowners, it may take hours to charge but you plug it in and leave it alone. I prefer the 'not have to go to a gas station' experience of EV. This is why I think a bigger win would be more residential charging instead of gas station style charging places. On the occasion that I'm going over 300 miles in a single trip, sure that's somewhat less convenient, but mitigated by that being relatively rare for me and being able to run the car as it charges, maybe eat.

      • Quite. My ford has had 2 cam belts and a clutch replacement, and it's coming up time when it'll need the clutch doing again. The clutch especially is not cheap to replace.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Junta ( 36770 )

          Ah yes, when I bemoaned the cost of a clutch replacement, someone accused me of lying because clutches are cheap.... Timing belts, water pump, power steering pump, oil changes, various gaskets going... so many things I don't miss... Thankfully I've never had to deal with a timing belt going in an interference engine, or with a cracked block...

          Still love to see more durable EV batteries, and especially better energy/weight ratios. Hoping *at least* economies of scale will produce more reasonable supply cha

          • Ah yes, when I bemoaned the cost of a clutch replacement, someone accused me of lying because clutches are cheap..

            To be fair, clutches are cheap .... it's the labor to replace them that is expensive!

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Duds ( 100634 )

        Battery replacement will be needed in longer time than an ICE replacement anyway so we can discount that.

        But the ICE car needs to be taken to a garage to refuel, the EV does not. The ICE car requires constant servicing and (If you like in the US) an oil change every 15 minutes. The EV doesn't.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Charge times are already down to 20 minutes, but the real kicker is that you will save far more time charging at home than you would waste going to a petrol station and pumping it. Once you get used to not having to divert to petrol stations and getting ripped off on dino juice regularly, you never want to go back.

      Battery replacement is irrelevant, the battery will out last the car in most cases and by the time it is necessary decades from now the batteries will be cheap anyway.

      Range is already better than

    • I've driven nothing but Mustang's since 1984. I wouldn't have an EV of any kind unless a couple things are solved.
      QUICK charge, close to or equal to the time it takes to refuel a gas vehicle.
      LESS expensive battery replacement.
      RANGE increase. And by range, I mean in ANY weather condition. Night, day, hot, cold.
      What's the use if you can't use the AC, heat, lights without a huge decrease in range. Also
      with a full load of passengers.
      FIX the "infrastructure". Charging stations are too far away.
      EV's aren't the answer. Hybrids SHOULD be what they use now, until the above are fixed.
      Until then, I'll stick with a gas powered vehicle.

      What the hell are you talking about? This sounds like someone who's spent a lot of time being uneducated listening to Sean Hannity. None of the stuff you said makes any sense!!

      A gasoline car is something like 20% efficient. Most of the fuel you burn is wasted as heat rather than pushing the car down the road. This is why stuff like towing and weather conditions don't affect your range as much. Your only affecting 20% of your fuel burned!

      Your battery is most likely going to far outlive your ICE engine.

  • You've managed to mention Ford, General Motors and Hyundai but not that other one /s

    • You've managed to mention Ford, General Motors and Hyundai but not that other one /s

      Uh, what?
      "Tesla, which does not break out domestic results, reported global deliveries of more than 908,000 EVs through the third quarter."

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      I mean, they say Tesla right there even in the summary...

      • I mean, they say Tesla right there even in the summary...

        For the true Musk Fanboi, any word other than "Musk" or "Telsa" is simply a wasted opportunity which could have been better used to include another "Musk" or "Tesla".

        It's a lot like Smurf talk, actually.

    • That other company had to reduce their prices to meet their sales goals for the year and keep the manufacturing lines running full. It won't be #1 for much longer because people are realizing better cheaper options are now available.

      Oh, and the leader is losing his shine.

  • ... pretty much everything passes Kias.

  • "The article notes that General Motors — America's second-largest automaker — also "plans to significantly step up EV production in the coming years."

    They've been saying they're going to start producing an assload of EVs any day now since 2019. The dragons, er, "EVs" are coming and they're gonna be great, you'll see!

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