E-Bike Batteries Have Caused 200 Fires In New York (theguardian.com) 60
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Guardian: The powerful lithium ion batteries used in small electric vehicles are responsible for a growing epidemic of fires. This year, there have been about 200 fires and six deaths, according to the New York City fire department. This month, an e-bike fire inside a Manhattan high-rise apartment became an inferno that injured nearly 40 people and forced firefighters to evacuate residents using ropes. These fires can spread quickly and suddenly: "We have a fully formed fire within a matter of seconds," the chief fire marshal said at a news conference.
As the densest city in America, New York is a micro-mobility haven. Here, small electric vehicles aren't toys for weekend jaunts but vital tools for the estimated 65,000 delivery workers trying to scrape a living through low-paying apps. There are thousands of choices today if you want an e-bike, e-scooter or e-moped. Some of the high-end, name-brand machines are sold in beautiful downtown showrooms for well over $5,000. But many of the vehicles used by New York City's workers come from unknown manufacturers and are sold online or through small shops for between $1,000 and $2,000. Nearly all of these vehicles are powered by lithium ion battery packs, which contain tightly bundled cells that store energy as flammable chemicals. Typically, the cells are kept in sync by a piece of electronic circuitry called a battery management system, or BMS, which makes sure that the cells don't overcharge or release too much energy at once. But that careful balance can get disrupted due to damage, wear or faulty manufacturing, sometimes with dangerous results.
Lawmakers are worried too. The authority that manages New York's public housing proposed an e-bike ban on its property this year but backed down after an outcry from low-income residents. On Monday, the city council held a hearing where legislators touted bills to combat the battery fires, including a proposal to outlaw the sale of secondhand electric vehicle batteries, and another to ban all batteries that haven't been approved by a nationally recognized testing lab. If passed, that measure would force riders to use batteries such as those certified by the Illinois-based Underwriters Laboratory (UL), which subjects e-bikes and their batteries to rigorous testing on issues ranging from their performance under extreme temperatures to how easily fire spreads between cells. Manufacturers have to pay a "nominal" cost to undergo testing, said Robert Slone, UL's chief scientist, but "we see a lot of manufacturers showing interest in certifying the batteries". UL sent a statement to the city council supporting the proposed measures, though it said a total ban on used batteries could be overkill: "When done correctly, batteries can be safely repurposed." Something else that would make a big difference for workers is better intel. "Each fire happened, they say it's an e-bike, but we don't know which one it is," said Gustavo Ajche, the founder of Los Deliveristas Unidos, a prominent delivery worker labor group. "There's a lot of missing information."
What would be more useful, he said, would be if the fire department committed resources to testing and sharing details about which batteries were safe to use, so that workers could make more informed decisions.
As the densest city in America, New York is a micro-mobility haven. Here, small electric vehicles aren't toys for weekend jaunts but vital tools for the estimated 65,000 delivery workers trying to scrape a living through low-paying apps. There are thousands of choices today if you want an e-bike, e-scooter or e-moped. Some of the high-end, name-brand machines are sold in beautiful downtown showrooms for well over $5,000. But many of the vehicles used by New York City's workers come from unknown manufacturers and are sold online or through small shops for between $1,000 and $2,000. Nearly all of these vehicles are powered by lithium ion battery packs, which contain tightly bundled cells that store energy as flammable chemicals. Typically, the cells are kept in sync by a piece of electronic circuitry called a battery management system, or BMS, which makes sure that the cells don't overcharge or release too much energy at once. But that careful balance can get disrupted due to damage, wear or faulty manufacturing, sometimes with dangerous results.
Lawmakers are worried too. The authority that manages New York's public housing proposed an e-bike ban on its property this year but backed down after an outcry from low-income residents. On Monday, the city council held a hearing where legislators touted bills to combat the battery fires, including a proposal to outlaw the sale of secondhand electric vehicle batteries, and another to ban all batteries that haven't been approved by a nationally recognized testing lab. If passed, that measure would force riders to use batteries such as those certified by the Illinois-based Underwriters Laboratory (UL), which subjects e-bikes and their batteries to rigorous testing on issues ranging from their performance under extreme temperatures to how easily fire spreads between cells. Manufacturers have to pay a "nominal" cost to undergo testing, said Robert Slone, UL's chief scientist, but "we see a lot of manufacturers showing interest in certifying the batteries". UL sent a statement to the city council supporting the proposed measures, though it said a total ban on used batteries could be overkill: "When done correctly, batteries can be safely repurposed." Something else that would make a big difference for workers is better intel. "Each fire happened, they say it's an e-bike, but we don't know which one it is," said Gustavo Ajche, the founder of Los Deliveristas Unidos, a prominent delivery worker labor group. "There's a lot of missing information."
What would be more useful, he said, would be if the fire department committed resources to testing and sharing details about which batteries were safe to use, so that workers could make more informed decisions.
Is this a lot? (Score:4, Interesting)
While that sounds like a lot of fires I can't really say how big a problem this is. We're talking New York and there are a lot of people living in New York. As the summary points out, we need more information to know why this is happening.
Do these fires happen while the bike is sitting in storage? Is it plugged in or not? How cold or hot is the storage space getting? Is this happening while the bikes are being actively used?
E-bikes kind of seem cool but are they as easy to steal are regular bicycles? Depending on how the e-bike is started, it probably wouldn't be that difficult for someone to make a tool that could start a specific make and model.
I'm sure they will figure it out one way or another. They definitely sound like they have their perks as a delivery vehicle for small parcels. You would think New York would be all about e-bikes what with them saving the planet from co2, providing some exercise and it's one less car on the road. Hopefully they don't start requiring registration and insurance....shit their goes the genie!
Re:Is this a lot? (Score:5, Informative)
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While it's always a good idea to take the scale of a place into account in some media report, 200 lithium ion battery fires is a lot even for a city of 8.5 million. This is true even if you take into account the massive adoption of ebikes in NYC. While lithium ion as a chemistry is prone to thermal runaway, there are so many layers of protection built into a properly engineered battery pack it should be practically impossible to set it on fire even if you *tried*. Fires in a properly engineered ebike batt
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Exact, it's not the numbers that is important, it's the source. All this Chinese knockoff that we accept is the problem. We risk to eliminate the good products for the cheap and badly designed one...
Else, we could point out cigarettes that is a much larger source of fire.
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Do these fires happen while the bike is sitting in storage? Is it plugged in or not?
Almost always while being charged. Fires are avoided if you keep them well away from anything flammable (e.g. curtains) while charging.
And smoke alarms are always essential. Are assume they are compulsory in NYC?
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Fires are avoided if you keep them well away from anything flammable (e.g. curtains) while charging.
So what you're really saying is that the battery itself catching on fire is not a fire, per se.
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So what you're really saying is that the battery itself catching on fire is not a fire, per se.
It isn't combustion, no. But I think you missed the actual point.
Battery fire is combustion (Score:4, Informative)
A quick bit of research [sciencedirect.com] shows that yes, a Lithium Ion battery fire is indeed literally combustion.
When lithium ion batteries burn, the cathode material breaks down and releases O2, and the battery combustion will also release CO and other combustible gases [3]. The large amount of heat released by internal reaction can also provide energy for lithium ion battery combustion. These factors also make lithium ion battery burn even in confined environments. Once burned, it is extremely difficult to extinguish.
To be clear to others on what I think the point is: Even though a battery fire for an e-bike can be very serious, due to the size of the batteries involved(bigger than laptop batteries, substantially smaller than EV batteries), it is still going to be a limited fire of limited danger UNLESS it manages to catch other things on fire during the process, or if people aren't warned, such as by setting off a smoke/fire detector.
NYFD has to deal with the fact that something like 20-50% of smoke alarms don't work, because of things like never replacing the battery, sheer age, people not doing the monthly test like they're supposed to, etc...
I've seen a video of an e-bike fire that showed it blocking the doorway easily, fortunately it was the exterior doorway and was fireproof enough that it didn't catch on fire itself, so the ebike burned itself out. Still ruined the door/doorway, requiring expensive repairs. This bike was supposedly from a reputable company. Whether the company is really reputable, whether it was really from that company, whether it was unmodified or not by the owner, I can't say for sure.
But the sheer scale of that fire makes me think that simply keeping it away from curtains and such may not be enough.
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In the UK the regulations are that fire alarms must be mains powered now. They have a small battery for backup in the event of a power cut. That limits their lifespan but the smoke detection hardware has a limited lifespan anyway.
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Spot the little Englander in the room. The regulations in Scotland are entirely different, and far more comprehensive.
Basically in Scotland *every* home must have interlinked smoke, heat and CO alarms. There must be a heat alarm in the kitchen. There must be a CO alarm in every room with an appliance that combusts a carbon fuel. There must be a smoke detector in the principal living space and on all circulatory spaces on every floor. It is recommended that a smoke detector is fitted in the principal bedroom
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US requirements are up there as well, though demanding a retrofit to interlinked mains powered alarms is a bit much in older construction that didn't have it to begin with, as that requires running new wiring.
A little bit of compare/contrast. Note, my brother's the electrician, and I've actually bothered to read the code book a while back.
1. Heat alarm in the kitchen isn't one I've heard about. Going by what I've heard from my brother, they'd be way too worried about false alarm trips, there's actually a
One thing is clear (Score:2)
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Nice try but there's been at least 150 Tesla fires [tesla-fire.com]
But it doesn't matter, Elon doesn't love you anyway.
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Well, these devices are possibly being designed too quickly in order to get to market fast, rather than getting in all the necessary safety and reliability engineering. A problem is if authorities reach the wrong conclusion and assume that the concept of lithium batteries or electric bikes are inherently unsafe. The moral of the story is to make sure they're built properly, follow all regulations, etc.
Sometimes it is the charger (Score:3)
My understanding is that sometimes it is the charger that is at fault.
See for example(Top 5 Reasons Why Lithium-Ion Batteries Catch Fire) https://www.ionenergy.co/resou... [ionenergy.co]
Article is more about car batteries but applies to all lithium-ion batteries.
In particular sections
C. Abnormal or Improper Usage
'External factors like keeping the battery very close to a heat source or near a fire can cause it to explode'
and
D. Charger Issues
'Using poorly insulated chargers can damage the battery. If the charger shorts or generates heat near the battery, it can do enough damage to cause failure.'
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What do you have against Dodge?
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An ebike battery should have short circuit, thermal runaway, and overcharge protection built into each individual cell, as well as the battery's BMS chip. There should be nothing a charger can do to cause the battery to catch fire. Fail? Yes, but the battery should fail safe. If you overheat the battery, the cell thermal protection should turn them into open circuits -- essentially they contain a switch that turns off when heated.
But there are lot of cells in an ebike battery, and as a manufacturer you
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LOL spoken like someone who has no experience with the subject. One could say that every protection an e-bike battery has and electric car should also have, yet electric cars do not have the features you think e-bikes need. Overcharge protection built into each cell. Har har.
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I can't say for every EV car out there, of course, but a quick search shows that Teslas, at least, have at least overcurrent and thermal protection built into every cell(assembly).
Still, the use cases are different as well. I imagine that a ebike battery pack can actually experience more extreme stresses during normal use(such as dropping the bike), you probably can't have as sophisticated of a management system, and active heating and cooling of the battery pack may not be a thing.
If you're not taking the
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cell(assembly)
The word assembly is doing a LOT of heavy lifting there and completely changes the discussion.
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I used that because part of the protection isn't actually built onto the cell, it's the connection TO the cell that is designed to be a fuse. It's not integral to the cell. It's still right there touching the cell, and is a protection system.
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LOL spoken like someone who has no experience with the subject.
Irony is not your strong suit. Obviously you have never looked into making your own ebike battery. The BMS costs about $5 and quality Japanese or Korean 18650s have at least electromechanical thermal runaway protection. And as an EV owner I know from experience I can't overcharge my car because it has a BMS.
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"The BMS controls the charge current/voltage."
Bullshit. LiIon chargers are very simple to charge and BMS's do not control that process. The BMS has protection and balancing features, nothing else.
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My understanding is that sometimes it is the charger that is at fault.
My understanding is cheap shit is at fault. New York has had 200 fires? The number of ebikes in New York pale in comparison to the Netherlands and Germany, yet the fires there are vanishingly rare.
It would probably help if people stop buying the cheapest possible battery and charger combination they can find on Alibaba USA (I think they call it Amazon over in the states).
I'd like to see if any of these e-bike fires had Bosch powertrains / chargers, or any other proper brand name for that matter.
Just a quick
If People Didn't Use/Need Them.... (Score:2)
So, unseen deaths still (Score:2)
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It's like if nerds here aren't spoonfed every single thing, they can't extrapolate about possible future events.https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/22/11/15/2221242/e-bike-batteries-have-caused-200-fires-in-new-york#
174,000 Highway Vehicle Fires in 2021 (Score:2)
Don't force bundling, that's an oligopoly evil (Score:1)
It may keep the cost down if the bill only requires they be tested for safety, with performance an optional cert or extra code/level. If they don't work under cold weather, riders with non-performance-cer
Similar in Vancouver (Score:5, Interesting)
At least three SROs (single room occupancy, the last step before homelessness) have burned down due to this in Vancouver. Itâ(TM)s mostly due to people using incorrect chargers to charge the batteries. Funny how when you steal a bike, you donâ(TM)t get the proper chargers for it.
Though also, the batteries should be required to meet safety standards and have better self protection circuitry.
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"...meet safety standards and have better self protection circuitry."
What safety standards and better than what? It's easy to say what you said, because it says nothing.
"...mostly due to people using incorrect chargers to charge the batteries."
Citation please. Commercial e-bike batteries have BMS's, that should not be a problem. If it is, that should be investigated.
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You sound as though you sell shitty Chinese lithium batteries. Most of these fires wouldn't happen if the battery pack had a thermistor or two or if the charger even included the thermal protection circuitry. Chances are the answer to both of these are "no" because it saved the manufacturer a fraction of a penny.
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Though also, the batteries should be required to meet safety standards and have better self protection circuitry.
Every e-bike battery I've seen and used does. Mind you I didn't import them from Amazon CN.
- do the math - (Score:2)
65,000 delivery workers
? commuters
? leisure users
200 fires
= ? % of total ebike users
It seems we have no basis to determine the impact of these fires. Nonetheless, a lively though ignorant discussion here may prompt better information in the future.
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There is a hidden motive at work. Anti-ebike groups have used fear tactics to lobby for bans for e-bikes entire existence. e-bikes haven't even been legal in NYC for long. Now this is the 2nd article on the fire "epidemic" in the last few weeks on /. alone. It's BS.
If e-bike fires actually are a problem in NYC, there is a specific root cause. It is not inherently a problem, and certainly not a problem with e-bikes engineered as complete solutions. It would have to be questionable conversions involved.
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Is there really such at thing as "anti-ebike" groups?
Why would anyone be anti-ebike? Not trolling, I honestly can't think of why someone would be so opposed to them that they'd actually make the effort to protest in any form, much less lobby against them.
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Is there really such at thing as "anti-ebike" groups?
The groups setup by the automotive industry. Also probably those that want the escooter/ebikes off their city streets.
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Well...I suppose that's possible.
But is that realistic? I mean...in these big cities where you can't hardly own/drive a car like NYC, is that really an area that is of importance to the automotive industry?
These are the places I would guess these e-bikes, or other underpowered things like scooters would be popular.
I say underpowered vs a car or a real motorcycle...something you'd use in
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Or as far as the total risk, how many e-bikers were hit by a car in that same period?
Biking on the streets is already dangerous activity; in 2019 New York had 18,494 collisions involving a bike that caused injury and 16 deaths.
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One thing I remember the last time this topic came up(a couple weeks ago?), was that once you looked at the data, the fire problem seems to track linearly with the number of ebikes. IE X bikes, Y fires. 2X bikes, 2Y fires. So the problem isn't getting noticeably better, but it isn't getting noticeably worse either. The increase in incidents is pretty much entirely down to the increase in number of bikes.
Is it enough to demand more regulations? Especially given that if you pass them just for NYC or such
Or just restrict them to non-firebom chemistries. (Score:2)
Seems to me that, if the issue is as bad as portrayed, the simple solution would be to restrict the bikes to the much less-, or non-flamible chemistries (like Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) or Lithium Titanium Oxide (LTO)), rather than those that are delicate and unextinguishabe-firebomb-prone (such as the several Lithium Cobalt variants).
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Those "firebomb-prone" batteries are in hundreds of products in Home Depot without significantly more safety considerations and no one is advocating for bans there.
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Restrictions do nothing. Nearly all these fires are diy / after market mods / using devices in ways the manufacturer didn't intend (i.e. stealing a bike and buying any generic charger from China-R-Us).
Additional regulations do nothing as they don't apply.
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The battery should have a BMS that protects it if you hook up the wrong charger. And the battery should also be a less-flammable chemistry like LFP. Consumer devices should be safe. It's one thing for power tool batteries to be NMC, it's a whole other thing for ebikes or scooters.
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Better remove all those flammable fluids from your car while we're at it.
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Well, to be fair...most people aren't storing their cars or their flammable car fluids nightly in their living rooms in apartments with hundreds of other tenants.
Growing pains (Score:2)
Hopefully the collateral damage can be lessened over time. Otherwise bureaucrats, lawyers and insurance companies get involved, and then there goes the party.
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"There goes the party" is likely the entire goal of the people making these allegations.
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Not growing pains, just stupidity. Your lawmakers would need to outlaw Alibaba and Chinese sellers on Amazon to make this problem go away.
And to be clear *they* are the problem. Fires from reputable brand ebikes used correctly and charged as intended are virtually non-existent. e.g. Stella (a huge seller in Germany and the Netherlands) had a whole 3 bikes catch fire and they suspended sales of the bikes in question to say nothing of the fact those couple of fires made the news.
People need to stop buying shi
New survey Where did these power sources come from (Score:2)
a. They are made in China
b. Al Qaeda supplies them
c. The grey market
d. The black market
e.Cowboy Neal's garage
The last option justifies my ending the statement with a preposition, which is not (yet) a felony
The most important thing (Score:2)
Firefighters testing batteries? (Score:3)
What would be more useful, he said, would be if the fire department committed resources to testing and sharing details about which batteries were safe to use, so that workers could make more informed decisions.
What the hell? How does this even fall under the list of stuff that fire departments should be doing?