Are Bitcoin-Mining Plants Helping or Hurting Texas' Power Grid? (nbcnews.com) 125
"Record-breaking heat across Texas has pushed its fragile power grid to the brink," reports NBC News. "But extreme temperatures are doing something else in the famously pro-business state: stirring opposition to energy-guzzling crypto miners who've flocked there seeking low-cost energy and a deregulatory stance."
Ten industrial-scale crypto miners will consume an estimated 18 gigawatts in years to come — though the state's current capacity is around 80 gigawatts (though it's expected to grow).
The case against them? The energy crypto miners use puts "an almost unprecedented burden" on the Texas grid, according to Ben Hertz-Shargel, global head of Grid Edge, a unit of Wood Mackenzie, an energy consulting firm. Mining "pushes the system closer to dangerous system peaks at all times," he told NBC News. "It is completely inessential and consuming physical resources, time and money that should be going to decarbonize and strengthen the grid...."
Unlike other electricity systems, the Texas grid does not connect to other states' grids; that means it cannot receive power from other areas in emergencies. Because of their high demand for electricity, crypto miners raise costs for other consumers of power, Hertz-Shargel said. And, on the Texas grid, miners can get paid for powering down during peak demand periods, like the one that recently hit the state. Miners and other industrial customers with these types of arrangements receive revenues for not using electricity; the costs of those revenues are passed on to other electricity customers.... During peak periods, miners can also resell to the grid the electricity they would otherwise have used. Because their contracts can let them buy power at low cost, energy resales when demand is high can generate significant financial benefits in the form of credits against future use....
Electricity customers across the state will cover those credits, said Andrew Dessler, professor of atmospheric sciences at Texas A&M University. "Ratepayers in Texas are going to be paying it off a little bit every month for decades," Dessler said. "It angers me so much."
But Lee Bratcher, founder of the Texas Blockchain Council, makes the case for industrial-scale bitcoin mines: Bratcher and the crypto miners he represents say they provide three benefits to Texas. Because they can turn off their electricity use during high-demand periods, they can help stabilize the grid and rein in runaway power prices. "Power pricing is set off at peaks and the miners are specifically trying to turn off during peaks," he said. In addition, crypto miners' 24/7 demand for electricity can provide an incentive for wind and solar developers to bring more green power to the grid while new jobs and tax revenues "lead to orders of magnitude of human flourishing in communities where the mines set up," Bratcher said.
Still, 800 locals have signed a petition against plans to built America's largest bitcoin-mining facility — a facility which will consume 1.4 million gallons of water a day and 1 gigawatt of electricity (enough to power 200,000 homes). Jackie Sawicky, a small-business owner, is organizing the opposition to the Riot facility. "There are over 7,000 people in poverty and 8,000 seniors living on fixed incomes here," she told NBC News. "We cannot afford increased water costs and electricity."
According to a 2020 economic impact report commissioned by the Rockdale Municipal Development District, an entity run by area businesspeople, the facility will deliver an estimated $28.5 million in economic benefits to the community over 10 years. The operation employs "nearly 200 full-time benefited employees..."
Ten industrial-scale crypto miners will consume an estimated 18 gigawatts in years to come — though the state's current capacity is around 80 gigawatts (though it's expected to grow).
The case against them? The energy crypto miners use puts "an almost unprecedented burden" on the Texas grid, according to Ben Hertz-Shargel, global head of Grid Edge, a unit of Wood Mackenzie, an energy consulting firm. Mining "pushes the system closer to dangerous system peaks at all times," he told NBC News. "It is completely inessential and consuming physical resources, time and money that should be going to decarbonize and strengthen the grid...."
Unlike other electricity systems, the Texas grid does not connect to other states' grids; that means it cannot receive power from other areas in emergencies. Because of their high demand for electricity, crypto miners raise costs for other consumers of power, Hertz-Shargel said. And, on the Texas grid, miners can get paid for powering down during peak demand periods, like the one that recently hit the state. Miners and other industrial customers with these types of arrangements receive revenues for not using electricity; the costs of those revenues are passed on to other electricity customers.... During peak periods, miners can also resell to the grid the electricity they would otherwise have used. Because their contracts can let them buy power at low cost, energy resales when demand is high can generate significant financial benefits in the form of credits against future use....
Electricity customers across the state will cover those credits, said Andrew Dessler, professor of atmospheric sciences at Texas A&M University. "Ratepayers in Texas are going to be paying it off a little bit every month for decades," Dessler said. "It angers me so much."
But Lee Bratcher, founder of the Texas Blockchain Council, makes the case for industrial-scale bitcoin mines: Bratcher and the crypto miners he represents say they provide three benefits to Texas. Because they can turn off their electricity use during high-demand periods, they can help stabilize the grid and rein in runaway power prices. "Power pricing is set off at peaks and the miners are specifically trying to turn off during peaks," he said. In addition, crypto miners' 24/7 demand for electricity can provide an incentive for wind and solar developers to bring more green power to the grid while new jobs and tax revenues "lead to orders of magnitude of human flourishing in communities where the mines set up," Bratcher said.
Still, 800 locals have signed a petition against plans to built America's largest bitcoin-mining facility — a facility which will consume 1.4 million gallons of water a day and 1 gigawatt of electricity (enough to power 200,000 homes). Jackie Sawicky, a small-business owner, is organizing the opposition to the Riot facility. "There are over 7,000 people in poverty and 8,000 seniors living on fixed incomes here," she told NBC News. "We cannot afford increased water costs and electricity."
According to a 2020 economic impact report commissioned by the Rockdale Municipal Development District, an entity run by area businesspeople, the facility will deliver an estimated $28.5 million in economic benefits to the community over 10 years. The operation employs "nearly 200 full-time benefited employees..."
Depends on your perspective (Score:5, Insightful)
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So, just business as usual in Texas.
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The negative effect is, more demand, more price increases as more users are vying for the same resources. Once economies of scale achieve diminishing returns (I presume they do in Utility power for a grid the size of Tex
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I am no cleptocurrency fan, but a firm power demand contract does create supply. If you want 1GW of power you are not just ordering a new service like you would for a house. The problem for consumers is when the supply contract cost is spread over all users Ngo reduce risk if the company goes bankrupt.
For Texas the bigger issue should be water, as both the power plant(s) and the datacenter are huge water users, and creating sustainable supply there is essentially impossible.
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My statement is that if you want to build a 1GW data center for crypto-mining then your discussions with the utility will force a long-term generation contract and specific ramp clauses. I don't know about how ERCOT operates, but CPUC will force a transmission review and a generation review at anything over about 100MW.
That generation/supply contract is what forces investment in additional generation capacity. The capacity is generally made available in steps according to the ramp clauses. One example wou
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Well that is a stunningly lack of logic that demand creates supply. During the same time when crypto mining affected the GPU market, enterprising gamers grew new GPUs in their gardens—oh wait that did not happen.
Well no, of course demand doesn't magically create supply when it isn't possible to increase supply. But it's not like the opposite is true, either. There's a reason that supply-side economics (a.k.a. voodoo economics) has lead to a recession every time it's been tried.
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It did create supply however. It's just that it takes time for new capacity to come online.
Now, about a year and a half later oversupply of GPUs is so utterly massive that warehouses are choke full of unsold ones, and nvidia is rolling back release of its next generation of GPUs.
Re: Depends on your perspective (Score:2)
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You really did have to post over a decade old data to support the argument, because Texas is that weird place on this planet where significant electric supply can be economically met with... wind and solar.
Which were massively built out in Texas over last decade to take advantage of that massive geographical benefit.
So in real life, Texas grid is now among the most PV and wind turbine heavy in the world, because of its uniquely suitable geography to both. It has high solar intensity and high wind intensity
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Re: Depends on your perspective (Score:2)
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So, just business as usual in Texas.
I'm sure the Texas Legislature will get right on that, next time they meet in Jan 2023. From Texas Legislature FAQ [texas.gov]:
The Legislature of the State of Texas, operating under the biennial system, convenes its regular sessions at noon on the second Tuesday in January of odd-numbered years. The maximum duration of a regular session is 140 days.
Re:Depends on your perspective (Score:4, Informative)
His specialty was electricity use (Score:5, Insightful)
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Such a wonderful post, and no mod points :(
Re: His specialty was electricity use (Score:2)
My favorite book. And well applied here. Bravo.
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Excellent.
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Utter bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that wasting electricity to support the crypto-Ponzi schemes is any sort of benefit is utter bullshit.
Adding large loads to a grid without adding generating capacity makes it more strained, even if that load can be turned off at some times.
Electricity in Texas is generated mostly from natural gas and coal, which emit carbon into the atmosphere.Even non-carbon emitting sources (wind, nuclear) still have costs involved in their construction and operation - they are not free. The grid needs to be built out to support higher loads.
Crypto-currencies are planet-incinerating Ponzi schemes (as jwz said), especially in Texas. They must be stopped.
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It is unfortunate we have pay large customers not to use electricity when it is scarce on the other hand, large customers are provided no the capital needed to move to renewables.
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The Texas grid produces enormous amount of power
Which is why every time the temps get above 80 or below 50, ERCOT has to beg people not to use it.
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The Texas grid produces enormous amount of power
Which is why every time the temps get above 80 or below 50, ERCOT has to beg people not to use it.
The TX grid is optimized to maximize profit not electricity.
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Re:Utter bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
The idea that wasting electricity to support the crypto-Ponzi schemes is any sort of benefit is utter bullshit.
Thank you. Was about to chime in to note te exact same.
"We're going to waste sooo much power that we'll become an incentive for more green energy" is an insane "pro"-argument to put forward. There's no two sides to this argument.
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Where in nature might one be able to observe such a law to always play out that way, or only come with small exceptions that prove the rule?
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Where in nature might one be able to observe such a law to always play out that way, or only come with small exceptions that prove the rule?
Well, there's Wikipedia Investopedia https://www.investopedia.com/t... [investopedia.com], Econlib.. Hell, basically everywhere on the internet. Though to be fair you can't find computers in nature so maybe that's the issue you were having.
Re:Utter bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
For example: Must supply follow demand?
Because the statement makes it sounds like it's an inevitability, much like an object being at rest staying at rest unless an external force acts upon it.
Though in free markets if supply does not follow demand, then we'll see a change in market price. Which does happen, because it's not always possible to match high demand.
In nature, if an object at rest would no longer be at rest without an external force acting upon it, we'd probably have to revise the law if this can't be explained away with a reasonable exception.
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I get crypto is an unpopular topic around these parts, but I must object to your notion of waste. They are buying the power, and using it in a way they see fit. That is their right. Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean it is a bad call on their part.
Just because something is bought and sold for a price doesn't mean it can't be wasted, son.
Re:Utter bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
They are buying the power, and using it in a way they see fit. That is their right. Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean it is a bad call on their part.
Are they also paying for the externalities (primarily pollution and climate change) for their power usage? Here's a hint: the answer is no.
One area you are absolutely wrong on is the notion that they wont incentivize new energy to be created (green or otherwise). New demand means more supply. Supply must follow demand, as any student of economics will tell you. More money being spent on energy means more energy sources will be incentivized to come online. That is just the natural law of supply and demand.
And how exactly does it help solve any of our problems to build more power generation that's just going to be used for computers doing pointless math?
Re: Utter bullshit (Score:2)
Re:Utter bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Utter bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
Integrated circuits were co-invented in the late 1950s by Jack Kilby at Texas Instruments and Robert Noyce at Fairchild Semiconductor. While it could be argued modern electronics would still exist as they do today without Kilby, it is a fact the process of fabricating multiple transistors was co-invented in Texas and California.
While Sunnyvale "silicon valley" in California gets the most attention, a pretty substantial number of ICs are also designed in Austin "silicon hills" in Texas with good portion of the US-based IC fabs in located Dallas. Many of those chips (especially Texas Instruments) are "analog" types which have fairly mundane functions like controlling the special signals to pixels on displays and localized power supplies like the ones which convert your PC's 12 volt power to much lower voltage and higher current in close proximity to power hungry chips like CPUs & GPUs.
Re: Utter bullshit (Score:4, Informative)
Okay finr. But next your grid collapses and hundreds if bot thousands are dying no fema aid for you.
Unlike the last 5 times.
If you want us out of your life then you can't ask us to support you either.
I eant texas to secede. The federal budget will ve abalbced anlot faster if the usa stops supporting the dead weight.(red states consume more federal dollars than they pay in taxes)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Okay finr. But next your grid collapses and hundreds if bot thousands are dying no fema aid for you.
Unlike the last 5 times.
If you want us out of your life then you can't ask us to support you either.
I eant texas to secede. The federal budget will ve abalbced anlot faster if the usa stops supporting the dead weight.(red states consume more federal dollars than they pay in taxes)
This is your brain on drugs.
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> This is your brain on drugs
I suspected typing too fast and google confirmed :
"Showing results for budget will be balanced a lot faster
Search instead for budget will ve abalbced anlot faster"
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
Re: Utter bullshit (Score:3)
Agree it's utter BS, but (Score:2)
Wind power surpassed coal in 2020, so it's now mostly natural gas and wind.
From Fuel Mix Report: 2022 report on ERCOT generation [ercot.com], data thru June puts our power generation at:
32% Gas-CC
30% Wind
17% Coal
10% Nuclear
6% Solar
6% Gas
It's been nice to watch Texas Solar ramping up over the past few years. Probably about 5 more years for Solar to pass Coal:
2019 Solar 1%
2020 Solar 2%
2021 Solar 4%
2022 Solar 6%
I don't know what the difference is
Re: Agree it's utter BS, but (Score:2)
Re: Utter bullshit (Score:4, Informative)
Do you cry about your Visa and Mastercard transactions also? Because those use just as much, if not more power than crypto because the infrastructure and readers everywhere are powered continously along with thousands of servers and networking equipment
From Google - "Bitcoin Transactions Per Day is at a current level of 223744.0, down from 263276.0 yesterday and down from 231130.0 one year ago. .I also think that if they can afford to buy the electricity and they turn it off when everyone else needs it, who cares? According to the ECONOMIC THEORY of Supply and Demand, having a higher demand during lower usage times that goes away during high usage times gives an incentive for the electric system to be grown because the assets will provide revenue more reliably. Today this means green energy, and the ability to store that energy after high generation events.
Visa does around 1,700 transactions per second on average (based on a calculation derived from the official claim of over 150 million transactions per day)."
223 thousand vs 150 million. I think one consumes way more than the other per transaction.
I think crypto is stupid and a scam, but they're paying for the electricity and giving everyone else the energy when demand is high is a net win for everyone..
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they're paying for the electricity and giving everyone else the energy when demand is high is a net win for everyone..
This scenario to an extent discourages energy storage projects. Why store if you have a guaranteed market to just burn up your surplus on the spot?
Further, it's another financial interest to muck with power delivery in undesirable ways. For example, there's a number of documented instances of low-income areas getting power shut down seemingly to favor power reliability for higher income areas. One could imagine an electric company doing the same for the sake of keeping a crypto-currency client going.
The c
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Do you cry about your Visa and Mastercard transactions also? Because those use just as much, if not more power than crypto because the infrastructure and readers everywhere are powered continously along with thousands of servers and networking equipment
Hahahahahaha!
No.
Not even close, in fact.
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The energy cost per transaction for Visa is 6 orders of magnitude lower than that of BTC.
Fixing a small problem by making a bigger problem. (Score:2)
If the Texas grid operators simply followed federal regulations for grid operators then ERCOT wouldn't be running a failure prone electrical grid. However, the idea that solving a local problem (unstable grid) by promoting a global problem (climate change) is insane. You might as well suggest fixing a hangnail by cutting off the finger when there is already risk of exsanguination.
Favorite Quote (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems like a perfect business model for Texas.
Solar panels (Score:2)
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Also, that would be work instead of just putting a computer into a corner and watching it do its thing.
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They're probably all very well aware that making actual investments in the infrastructure is a terrible terrible idea, due to the volatility of the market.
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What? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because they can turn off their electricity use during high-demand periods, they can help stabilize the grid and rein in runaway power prices.
If you have to turn off a massive waste of electricity to stabilize your grid, that's not a benefit.
Re:What? (Score:4, Insightful)
If it made any sense at all then the power companies would do it. They could set up their own mining operations and turn some of that unsellable power into crypto currency.
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Higher supply of electricity would mean lower prices for consumers, and we wouldn't want that of course!
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>"If you have to turn off a massive waste of electricity to stabilize your grid, that's not a benefit."
Exactly my thoughts.
1) Not using electricity at certain times is not "selling back" anything. It is mitigation only.
2) If crypto mining were not there, then there would be no use
3) "Spurring more supply" is also of no benefit when they are the ones spurring demand.
If there were lots of "green" excess capacity and crypto used it ONLY when nobody else needed it... then fine. Better to try and store it,
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>"However, if you've bought energy on long-term contracts in Texas, you can now sell those contracts at a profit."
Ah, OK, thanks for that clarification.
Re: What? (Score:2)
Unless said grid stabilization comes at a time when wind and/or solar begins to fail. Which is what happens during heat waves(for wind) and really cold storm periods(wind and solar). Always on mining forces a higher base load capacity to be in place which can be accessed during such emergency periods.
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Because they can turn off their electricity use during high-demand periods, they can help stabilize the grid and rein in runaway power prices.
If you have to turn off a massive waste of electricity to stabilize your grid, that's not a benefit.
I totally agree that cryptocurrency is a massive waste of resources.
But on the very narrow question of whether this specific group is stabilizing the Texas power grid... I suspect the answer is yes.
When demand is lower they buy extra power incentivizing the creation of more capacity. When demand (and prices) are high they turn off, and hopefully that extra capacity can prevent blackouts.
That doesn't mean wasting power making fake money during that 99% of non emergency time is overall a good thing, but I sus
You can stabilise the grid this way (Score:2)
Just force all bitcoin miners to have a remote load shed triggered by the energy company whenever there is a -0.1Hz frequency deviation. Sure the power would go out multiple times a day and forcefully but you'll have helped stabilise the grid rather than the bullshit the crypto bros are spouting.
Who do we believe more about the grid? Academics? Energy consultants? Or bitcoin miners with a profit motive?
Hurtting. (Score:5, Interesting)
Right now Bitcoin miners are chewing up all the cheap rates raising pricing for everyone else
If all the cheap rates are gone only the ezpensive rates remain.
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Right now Bitcoin miners are chewing up all the cheap rates raising pricing for everyone else
If all the cheap rates are gone only the ezpensive rates remain.
I pay 210 dollars a month for electricity in Texas for a 2400 sq ft home. They shared the cheap rates with me, and I likes it!
Re: Hurtting. (Score:2)
Tomorrow's news (Score:2)
"I can't explain it", the Texan governor was quoted, "We've been cutting larger and larger holes into our balloon but it just doesn't want to stay afloat!"
"trying to turn off during peaks" (Score:2)
Nowhere does it say "Get disconnected from the grid".
Apparently this is just a "Really!" "Pinky Promise!".
So down the line when this isn't in the spotlight anymore, will they still turn their systems off? I somehow doubt it.
Assuming they're even any use anymore a few years in the future of course, which with crypto is a real question anyway.
I need an explanation (Score:2)
"a facility which will consume 1.4 million gallons of water a day and 1 gigawatt of electricity (enough to power 200,000 homes)."
What's the water for?
Re:I need an explanation (Score:5, Informative)
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Even so, water goes through cooling pipes and comes out slightly hotter on the other side, but it's not "contaminated" unless they keep pouring additives into it, which would be VERY costly.
It would be much cheaper to use industrial radiators and closed loops.
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Computers are 100% efficient at converting consumed energy to heat. 1 gigawatt of electricity = 1 gigawatt of required cooling. Ever had a 2000W bar heater on in the room? That should provide the perspective on trying to air cool this.
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I have several watercooled machines, and all of them are using closed loops. Even if the machines in TFA are using open loop design, the water is not "wasted", because there's not much to contaminate it with. The free ion contamination from passing through cooling blocks is negligible.
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150 terawatt-hours (Score:5, Informative)
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The biggest problems with EV's right now is distribution.
The biggest problem with EVs right now is shortages.
If you put a charger in every home the grid will just melt.
Bullshit.
We need tons of money for power plans for grid upgrades and for chargers.
True, but that has nothing to do with home charging.
But hey, lets just build the cars, everything will be fine!
We can replace around 50% of the cars with EVs before we have significant problems.
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Get Your Story Straight (Score:2)
Because they can turn off their electricity use during high-demand periods,...
Also
..., crypto miners' 24/7 demand for electricity...
So which is it? You need to run your mining rigs 24/7 or you can turn them off when you want?
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The "24/7 demand" quote is in context of wind and solar. Wind and solar are variable electricity producers, and Bitcoin mining can be a variable electricity consumer. So the point is that mining can flexibly consume the excess power, making production of renewable power more profitable. In contrast, a lot of electricity consumers (say, most retail establishments) are not able to make use of electricity 24/7, whereas Bitcoin mining loads can scale up and down.
They should mind Bitcoin in the Orkneys (Score:2)
The Orkney Islands have "too much power"
They have been testing out wind and I believe wave generation there and have more power than they can transmit to the main UK grid over the lines they have back to the mainland
The average temperature there is already pretty cool
it seems like a perfect place for bitcoin miners to go for cheap power with much lower cooling needs - yet they are in Texas... where late stage capitalism means they are being paid not to use their electricity? Good grief America (especially T
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Odd way of framing the argument (Score:2)
Bitcoin miners want cheap power. They may be able to get cheap power at off-peak times. This can actually benefit the grid, indirectly, in that power plants can keep running, charging just enough to cover their costs - which is possibly better than building "peaker" power plants that rarely run but must be instantly available.
How often are power plants basically running idle, and wanting to provide that cheap power? Is that often enough to justify building up big Bitcoin operations? Ercot needs to provide
... or is it just poor planning? (Score:2)
So you know they're hurting it (Score:2)
But second they're driving up the cost for everyone. Someone in the ars Technica forums explained it to me. Bitcoin miners set up shop near cheap electricity. They then buy all of that cheap electricity. The electrical markets are just that, markets. You allow
Everyone focused on the power but not the water... (Score:2)
Broken windows (Score:5, Informative)
This is just a variation on the broken windows fallacy. I'm sure the glazier and the glass maker appreciate the business when the mad hurler is going through town with his bag of rocks and it's even possible that it reduces the lead time for getting a window fixed when it breaks for other reasons, but at the end of the day it makes resources more expensive than they should be and everybody ends up paying more.
Cost (Score:2)
At least they're in the right place (Score:2)
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Fictional benefits. (Score:2)
"Because they can turn off their electricity use..." Can and will are two very different things. They can help green energy initiatives directly, but they do not. They can choose to be less wasteful in their pursuit of profit, but they already do not.
"crypto miners' 24/7 demand for electricity can provide an incentive for wind and solar developers..." You're shifting the blame to other people, saying it's not your fault that someone else isn't cleaning up the mess you made. Grow up.
"new jobs and t
200 employees? (Score:2)
We run multiple Top500 super computers with thousands of users with less than half that staff.
Mining is FAR simpler. They should be able to do it with far fewer.
My guess is that to get tax deals and permits, they intentionally overinflated the numbers
If done right, they are helping (Score:2)
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Re:Why not, perhaps it is a bulletproof investment (Score:5, Insightful)
For something that supposedly has no value
BTC has no underlying value. Company stock might be overvalued, but the company's actual vulue is still underpinning it. Gold might be overvalued, but if you look at supply and demand from industry where gold is actually used for stuff, it has a pretty hard bottom. Fiat currency isn't doing so well because a lot extra has been printed (as well as other factors), but as long as people are doing the majority of their transactions in dollars and euros, their values are more or less tied to the size of the economies underpinning them. The biggest threat to the value of the dollar is oil trade shifting to the euro or some other currency, and you better believe that the USA is prepared to fight to stop that from happening.
BTC has no underlying economy to speak of. The vast majority of it is speculation, some of it is a store of value (which does lend some value to the coin), and a tiny tiny bit of it is actual trade (not counting the buying and selling of BTC itself, or settlements). Take away the speculation, and the value will plummet. Those who keep their wealth in BTC will run, and then you'll find where the bottom is: somewhere slightly above 0.
Those Lambos? They were paid for by people remortgaging their homes and "investing" that money in BTC, and losing their life savings. Or maybe a few of them had a windfall profit too, paid for by the next wave of suckers. But very little actual value has been created by cryptocurrencies. It is, in the end, a really neat idea turned into a Ponzi scheme.
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To be more specific, fiat currencies like the dollar very much DO have something underpinning them, and that is the ability to levy taxes. Backed by the judicial system. Backed by the police force. Backed by the national guard. Backed by the most powerful military on the planet.
Money, of any form, is an IOU on goods and services. It is not the goods and services itself, and nor does it have some magical capacity to conjure any arbitrary level of supply of any arbitrary good or service.
* When money is b
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Re:Why not, perhaps it is a bulletproof investment (Score:4, Insightful)
>"BTC has no underlying value."
It has no intrinsic value. It doesn't entertain, heal, transport anything, feed anyone/anything, produce any goods or services, etc. It has value only as a financial tool of which few even use.
At a time when bad policy has created a huge energy crisis coupled with insane inflation, crypto looks more and more like a massive waste of resources and a drain on everyone and everything.
Precious metals, like gold, silver, palladium, platinum, also share some of the "it has value because we believe it does." But, unlike crypto products, those metals DO have intrinsic value and special properties- they are used in all kinds of useful products and to make products (as tools and catalyzers). Plus they are pretty, and used in jewelry which people want.
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>"BTC has no underlying value."
It has no intrinsic value. It doesn't entertain, heal, transport anything, feed anyone/anything, produce any goods or services, etc. It has value only as a financial tool of which few even use.
At a time when bad policy has created a huge energy crisis coupled with insane inflation, crypto looks more and more like a massive waste of resources and a drain on everyone and everything.
Precious metals, like gold, silver, palladium, platinum, also share some of the "it has value because we believe it does." But, unlike crypto products, those metals DO have intrinsic value and special properties- they are used in all kinds of useful products and to make products (as tools and catalyzers). Plus they are pretty, and used in jewelry which people want.
To be honest - the best currency base I ever heard of was salt when it was hard to obtain and required by everyone for a ton of things. David Gerald wrote a book series called "The War Against the Chtorr" where the currency is Kilocalories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
I think it is a great idea, but how do you print calories? But it would promote weight loss!
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There is one thing to remember about Bitcoin. It's that one day it will end, as everything has an end. And that day the money that has been invested in bitcoins will be the same as the money retired from the bitcoins. It's the definition of zero-sum game. For you to win something, another one has to lose that something. Are you sure about on which side are you going to be?
I said same money but of course it isn't. Take away fees, all free Bitcoins given to the miners and bitcoins lost or destroyed. So it's a
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