'Why Won't Corsair and Dell Just Let Apple's Touch Bar Die Already?' (macworld.com) 86
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from an opinion piece, written by Macworld's Michael Simon: Apple killed its Touch Bar on the 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro last year, but PC makers seem determined to prove the company wrong. First Dell introduced the XPS 13 Plus which sports a "new capacitive touch experience that allows you to switch between media and function keys easily." The laptop is available for purchase but back-ordered for weeks, and there haven't been any reviews so we don't know for sure how it will be received, but Dell's touch bar concept seems even less useful than Apple's: the buttons are static, they merely float above the actual keyboard, and they don't appear to add any functionality. Then Dell added a touch bar to the trackpad on the Latitude 9330. [...]
Now there's a new PC touch bar, this time on the Voyager a1600, Corsair's first-ever gaming laptop. Corsair hasn't named or even officially announced the new feature -- it only appeared as a sneak peek -- but the company told The Verge that the strip features "10 easy-access customizable S-key shortcut buttons." [...] Corsair's Touch Bar doesn't replace the row of function keys but it is in an odd location -- on the hinge below the display. Even in pictures, it looks incredibly uncomfortable to reach. According to renders, you can still access the Touch Bar when the laptop is closed, which seems like an accident waiting to happen (not to mention a battery drain).
But the biggest question I have is: why? No one shed a tear for the Touch Bar when it was killed. While it has its merits, it was never a proper pro-level feature and the implementation didn't evolve past the original idea. It was too skinny, lacked tactile feedback, required constant scrolling, and didn't actually save time. It looked nice, but even Apple didn't seem to know what to do with it. The MacBook Pro Touch Bar was one of Apple's most polarizing features and it never really caught on with developers. Maybe a niche use like gaming or video conferencing will have better results, but ultimately the Touch Bar, Apple's or otherwise, is a failed concept that should stay in the past.
Now there's a new PC touch bar, this time on the Voyager a1600, Corsair's first-ever gaming laptop. Corsair hasn't named or even officially announced the new feature -- it only appeared as a sneak peek -- but the company told The Verge that the strip features "10 easy-access customizable S-key shortcut buttons." [...] Corsair's Touch Bar doesn't replace the row of function keys but it is in an odd location -- on the hinge below the display. Even in pictures, it looks incredibly uncomfortable to reach. According to renders, you can still access the Touch Bar when the laptop is closed, which seems like an accident waiting to happen (not to mention a battery drain).
But the biggest question I have is: why? No one shed a tear for the Touch Bar when it was killed. While it has its merits, it was never a proper pro-level feature and the implementation didn't evolve past the original idea. It was too skinny, lacked tactile feedback, required constant scrolling, and didn't actually save time. It looked nice, but even Apple didn't seem to know what to do with it. The MacBook Pro Touch Bar was one of Apple's most polarizing features and it never really caught on with developers. Maybe a niche use like gaming or video conferencing will have better results, but ultimately the Touch Bar, Apple's or otherwise, is a failed concept that should stay in the past.
As an Apple customer (Score:4, Funny)
I'd like to say to you PC buyers... I'm sorry.
Re: As an Apple customer (Score:2, Informative)
Re: As an Apple customer (Score:3)
Why on earth would security improvements require a Touch Bar? They could have done that without that annoying crap. Interesting idea, but impractical in reality. I hate it: itâ(TM)s way too sensitive and somehow I keep touching it when Iâ(TM)m typing other things. I really hate it when Exposé takes over the screen when Iâ(TM)m trying to type something!
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It would be perfect if it were pressure sensitive and had haptic feedback like the trackpad. I really like the quick access to sliders for screen brightness and sound volume. But indeed, it's a pain when you accidentally activate it while typing, especially when it's a key like "Send" that sends an unfinished mail. I think that's the main reason people dislike it. But if they just fixed that by making it pressure sensitive, it would actually be great. Too bad they axed it rather than improving it.
Also, havi
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If the Touchbar had a PIN pad where the numbers were randomly placed, that might be a boon for security... but I have yet to see anyone go that route.
Re: As an Apple customer (Score:2)
The other problem with it: you have to look down at it. Very annoying and disruptive for touch typers.
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Actually the PC industry added this first, it goes back at last as far as the Lenovo Carbon Gen 2 about ten years ago, the version that sucked so much that they released the Gen 3 as just another Gen 1 and forgot the Gen 2 even existed.
I think every single vendor has to learn this the hard way, their latte-sipping hipsters have run out of anything else they can wank around with so they say "hey, let's add a touch bar, that'd be really hip and trendy!". Then when everyone absolutely hates it they blame the
You're doing it wrong. (Score:5, Insightful)
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And it looks like that's what Corsair did. The bar is just above the normal Function keys.
I never had a laptop with such a bar so I can't say for sure, it seems like it could be pretty handy. In the worst case, it just won't do anything.
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It would probably be way less likely to be accidentally triggered when above physical function keys than above the number row, where you touch-type, but still, if you use function keys frequently, it could still suffer from the same flaw that Apple's touch bar did — a lack of edge touch rejection.
That's ultimately what made me want to toss my Touchbar-equipped MacBook Pro out a twenty-story window. Hitting keys next to it would frequently trigger unwanted functionality. If they had added "Force Tou
Make touchbar an addition instead of a replacement (Score:4, Insightful)
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I don't understand why apple just didn't provide the touch bar above the Function keys.
My workflow must be very different from yours. I don't use a single program that requires me to use the function keys. I always considered the function keys a waste of space.
They make the touchpad WAY too big
I have a 16-incher and I LOVE the big touchpad.
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That indicates you do not play computer games. ...
Sad
It also indicates you are not a programmer, as plenty of functions e.g. debugger stuff is mapped to F-keys.
BTW: F-keys ar enot required to be used, but can be configured to be used for this or that.
Strange, did you not once claim to be a programmer ?
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A big touchpad is a two-edged sword. If you want to be able to do stuff with it like draw or sign your name, making it bigger is better. If your focus is on typing, then a smaller one is definitely superior. Ideally manufacturers would offer both options, and they would be interchangeable, but both of those ideas are anathema to Apple.
Is the touch bar a bad thing? (Score:3)
The biggest issue with Apple is that they don't really give you a choice. You get what they give you in terms of design. With these laptops, they're just a few of many possible choices. They might not get as many customers because of it, but the customers have a choice.
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When you're a professional, especially in the software industry, there is no replacement for the tactile feedback and touch typing enabled by physical function keys.
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I'd argue that the only reason the Touch Bar ever existed was because Apple had worked itself into a corner with its frequent disparagement of touch screens, back when Windows started offering that as a laptop feature. Apple later came to realize a touch interface might have value for certain applications, but didn't feel they could backtrack - so they cobbled together a "solution" which was really the worst of both worlds.
Honestly, they should have just eaten a little crow and put a real touchscreen on the
Re: Is the touch bar a bad thing? (Score:5, Interesting)
They did not care about UX on the Touch Bar. There was only ever one purpose for the Touch Bar: to prove they could make an ARM based Mac. Modern Apple has always used weird features as a proving ground for future technologies. The route we took to an ARM Mac is weird, but bear with me here.
2013: Apple releases it own, in-house designed ARM64 processor, over a year before anyone else, in the iPhone 5S. This iPhone includes something Apple called a âoemotion coprocessorâ. This was used to prove capabilities for the Watch.
2015: Apple Watch is released, using a system-on-package design, incorporating all hardware into a single chip package. The system runs a feature complete fork of iOS.
2016: the T1 chip is released as the Touch Bar controller. This is a cut down 2nd generation Apple Watch SIP that replaced the SMC and enabled Touch ID.
2017: the T2 chip is released as a 2nd generation Touch Bar controller. This however is far more powerful, an iPhone 7 SoC. System tasks from macOS are offloaded to bridgeOS running on the T2, most hardware on the system is abstracted by the T2, and storage is controlled by the T2.
2020: Apple releases M1 and moves everything else over to homegrown silicon.
This company is so successful because they play the long game and take the time to conceptualize, prototype, test, and then release products profitably.
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And what exactly has an ARM to do with a touch bar?
And why would they need to prove they can do an "ARM based Mac"?
Obviously Apple can simply make any computer they want, put what ever chip they want as main CPU inside, and just compile the OS for it. (* facepalm *)
Re: Is the touch bar a bad thing? (Score:2)
Because Apple has a perpetual ARM architecture license. This provides a solid foundation to design processors on (which is exactly what they did for the first 64-bit chips) as well as a toolchain. This is a LOT easier than trying to reinvent the wheel.
Re: Is the touch bar a bad thing? (Score:2)
More specifically, Touch Bar exists because they originally used a Watch SIP for T1, which has a display controller, and at the time iOS (and itâ(TM)s forks) could not boot correctly without a display.
Release delay (Score:3, Insightful)
Timeline:
1. Apple develops keyboards with the touchbar
2. Other manufacturers start their manufacturing process of the same.
3. Apple stops deploying the touchbar.
4. Other manufacturers have only just finished building their touchbar-enabled keyboards and have no other option but to release them anyway.
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Re:Release delay (Score:4, Interesting)
I have a keyboard with touchbar from 2000s. It's not from Apple.
And in the story, Apple fanboy projection is pretty overwhelming. Corsair's implementation for example seems to be integration of their Elgato stream decks that has nothing to do with Apple's implementation.
It even has Elgato's software controlling it.
And Elgato's implementation is so popular, that people buy it for desktops in large amounts. This is simply integrating similar functionality into a laptop format. Without having the "You will buy it because we put it into things you'll buy anyway, and you won't buy it because we remove it from things you'll buy anyway" Apple sales pitch. With Elgato and Corsair, people actually want this functionality so much, they're buying the relevant hardware separate of their computers.
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Love my stream deck. I got the 15 key version a few weeks ago. I'm ready to buy the XL when it next goes on sale.
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Considering that Chinese elite all have iphones, including Huawei top execs who keep getting caught with "sent from my iphone" signatures on their posts, are you sure this is the correct answer?
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Pretty sure it means the same thing in Russia as it does elsewhere. I was talking about top tier people, not garbage tier communist party apparatchiks like yourself that really want one but can't afford one.
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Actual better timeline:
1. Apple develops keyboards with a touchbar which replace critical functionality like function keys.
2. Other manufacturers say "that's retarded" start manufacturing keyboards with a touchbar that is non critical and doesn't take away from the keyboard in any way.
3. Apple realises their Macbook Pro was getting nailed against the wall by Pros for their gimmicky bullshit.
4. Other manufacturers continue shipping perfectly functioning keyboards with additional touchbars on the top since th
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5. Fanbois cry on Slashdot about how great Apple is and how everyone else is just clueless.
Any references for that?
As I'm pretty sure every Apple Fan (not fanboi) pointed out how retarded it was to remove the function keys.
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Wrong, Dell isn't trying to copy Apple, they're trying to make space internally to cool the new Intel chip, and this design is cheap to make. Apple's is a massive over engineered thing. Corsair is just trying to throw in a gimmick, not change the world.
It's pretty (Score:3)
And it seems and "feels" useful, and I am sure it is for some applications but really it's a gimmick.
Like I remember seeing the Optimus Maximus keyboard with it's oled keycaps and even I bought into the "whoa" hype for a second but was just "eh, neat" on arrival. Can do some cool demos though.
I can't imagine this is more than a calculation that they can push more units relative to the cost.
The thing about scifi movies and shows is we will probably be using regular ass mice and keyboard up until the point we jack in like the matrix.
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And it seems and "feels" useful, and I am sure it is for some applications but really it's a gimmick.
Like I remember seeing the Optimus Maximus keyboard with it's oled keycaps and even I bought into the "whoa" hype for a second but was just "eh, neat" on arrival. Can do some cool demos though.
The idea of labelling function keys with per-application information so you know what they do is old. I first encountered it here:
https://www.retro-kit.co.uk/pa... [retro-kit.co.uk]
The strip of clear plastic above the function keys was
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There were a variety of similar things. There were so many IBM keyboards in the world that they became a bit of a standard so a lot of apps came with a template that wrapped around the whole damn key layout. Even more came with a strip designed to sit above the fkeys (in the same spot) and I'd say wordperfect is probably the best known of them... and you really needed it, until you became a whiz at that crap which I never did. WP was pretty amazing in its day though, in that you could achieve extremely prec
Because large corporations move slowly (Score:4, Funny)
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Honestly, a touch bar with additional programmable functions placed on top of the regular function keys and escape key would be pretty damn useful.
Unfortunately, keyboard manufacturers have (wrongly) decided function keys vs a touchbar is an either/or thing.
As a touch typer I couldn't disagree more (Score:4, Interesting)
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I touch type all of the typewriter keys, but I don't touch-type most of the others, yet I still use them. It would be great if fkeys would sprout icons so that it was obvious what they did. I remember there was that zillion dollar OLED-capped keyboard, too rich for my blood but I coveted it hard and that I think is what we "really" want. (I mean, while I'm fantasizing I guess I'd like each keycap to have both e-Ink and OLED...) I can see this being immensely useful for both gaming and for actually useful ap
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And they're only just now copying Apple's bad design decisions.
No. They didn't copy Apple's bad design decision. They look at Apple's bad design decision, and turned it into a functioning additional feature that doesn't in any way fuck up the existing keyboard the way Apple did.
Well except for Dell, they copied all the worst parts of Apple's design and none of the good ones, but then bad design is basically what Dell is primarily known for these days.
not so sure (Score:3)
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Apple's design costs hundreds of dollars in hardware. Dell's costs them nothing.
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Dell's also does nothing, of import, for the user. On the other hand it might actually literally make the system cheaper for Dell, because capacitive touch is available in a tiny cheap IC these days but keys still cost money.
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It does something for the user... it makes space in the chassis so the hot Intel chip can be cooled.
Not a touch bar, a touch experience (Score:2)
The story title has it all wrong. This is not a touch bar—it's a touch experience.
Dell introduced the XPS 13 Plus which sports a "new capacitive touch experience...
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Yeah, I'll not be experiencing the new "XPS Plus" in that case.
Hopefully they make a 12th gen XPS that's not a plus...I love the XPS I have but i'm a few generations behind now.
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Oh, and even "better" they removed the USB-A port and headphones jack and instead include two USB-C adapters.
FML ... they're literally playing all the bad parts of Apple's playbook. An immeasurable reduction in size vs. losing two useful ports is not a selling point for a laptop IMO.
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Probably not, because the touch bar makes more room internally to cool the new Intel chip.
This is NOTHING like the Apple one (Score:3)
Just go look at the Corsair website. Dynamic pretty buttons, above the keyboard. Apple instead removed the function keys and even escape to make them this awful thing.
No one dislikes the idea of a pad with dynamic keys somewhere on a laptop. Apple never tried that, doesn't get credit for it. These guys are trying something new that Apple never did.
And I wish them well. It is a cool gimmick.
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Yes, they were different models. This 2016 loaner MBP from work I'm using right now has no physical escape or power off keys and has a Touch ID on the RH side. Your 2019 model has Apple's at a compromise response to the initial complaints while trying to keep the ribbon.
IMO, the ribbon is actually an intriguing technology and adds functionality, but its implementation (mimicking keys) was wrong for one reason: human laziness. Dynamic ribbon buttons didn't make laptop easier to use while also adding value. I
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I don't know what is a "pseudo key state". Apps were supposed to show you things in the touch bar when they are available, not because you memorized something.
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"pseudo-key states" == virtualized/possible key combinations.
"to show you things"
That was the problem. You couldn't memorize the ribbon and half-mindlessly use it like a Ctrl+C or F1 for help shortcut. You had to look down, analyze what was available on the ribbon, then use it.
Changing your computer's UI (the keys) on the fly makes it more difficult to master, mentally. The ribbon makes the computer more complex to use than it needed to be.
I imagine that Steve Jobs would've never approved of it.
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OK, I see what you mean... though is it really true... because if a particular app had the F3 position do "X" and the ribbon has an "X" key at the same spot, how is that not the same?
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I'm guessing 99.9% of apps just used the touch bar... if at all... as just function keys. And this was way way overengineered as a way to have function keys vs media controls compared to the Dell way of just having a different little light under the key for each media function vs F1, F2 etc. (I assume this is how it works).
Maybe Apple did it backwards? (Score:3)
Only people inside Apple know what the conversations were, but the Touch Bar always felt ill-conceived and it seems likely that a lot of people inside Apple would have agreed. So the successful push to include it would have been based on "it'll sell more Macs", which really means "it's a good marketing gimmick". Dell and Corsair would be dumb to not include something that would help them market and sell their products.
That said, I always felt Apple had it backwards-- they should have put the Touch Bar on the lowest end models, and let "Pro" models continue to have a full keyboard. Real pros are both much more likely to be touch typists (which the Touch Bar effectively screws up), and to evaluate a laptop based on how the tool serves them. I wouldn't be surprised if internal research found a number of pro laptops purchasers were pushed to cheaper models (ie. the Mac Book Air) just to avoid the Touch Bar. That could have undermined any positive effect it was having on sales to less pro users.
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Does anybody know how to touch type the function keys? Does anyone NEED to touch type the function keys? I think not.
I think the touch bar gimmick didn't work in that consumers weren't preferring macs because of it, therefore it doesn't help sell macs, it just hurts Apple's margins making a tricky bit of hardware that nobody particularly appreciated. Originally it was put in because touch screens were a big deal, and Apple wanted a way to say "see, we don't need touch screens, we've got this". Maybe the cha
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What?? If you're like me and you take your MacBook to coffee shops, restaurants and other places, I adjust the brightness and volume with those keys constantly. Yes, without looking. Sure, you can do it in the menu bar, but no one would ever use [cmd]-shortcuts either if the keyboard wasn't much faster. Why not get rid of [cmd]-shortcuts too? And then there are the people who need [esc]...
May
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Does anyone NEED to touch type the function keys? I think not.
In computer games like EVE Online you have to touch type them, as every main function is bound to a F-key.
There are thousands of applications, that use F-keys, do you really need to touch type them? Probably not. But do you really want to look down on the keyboard, hit the fn key to transform the touch bar into F-keys to type a key you need every 30 or 60 seconds? Certainly not me ...
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They should have had the bar AND the fkeys on the pro models, and the bar replacing the fkeys on the toys. Approximately nobody's going to bother to program for the bar if everyone doesn't have it.
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I totally agree.. having the F-keys and the touch bar would have been the way to go. But when you start thinking about apps and how to present controls, I never even understood the underlying logic of what controls you would want on a touch bar and not put on the screen. Especially since, the user has to look down
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Only people inside Apple know what the conversations were, but the Touch Bar always felt ill-conceived and it seems likely that a lot of people inside Apple would have agreed. So the successful push to include it would have been based on "it'll sell more Macs", which really means "it's a good marketing gimmick". Dell and Corsair would be dumb to not include something that would help them market and sell their products.
That said, I always felt Apple had it backwards-- they should have put the Touch Bar on the lowest end models, and let "Pro" models continue to have a full keyboard. Real pros are both much more likely to be touch typists (which the Touch Bar effectively screws up), and to evaluate a laptop based on how the tool serves them. I wouldn't be surprised if internal research found a number of pro laptops purchasers were pushed to cheaper models (ie. the Mac Book Air) just to avoid the Touch Bar. That could have undermined any positive effect it was having on sales to less pro users.
What Apple fanboys always hate admitting is that a lot of Apple's ideas are ill-conceived but persist because Apple continues to drive them. The problem is they don't have a cult of personality driving their cargo cult of fanboys anymore so they can't simply force terrible ideas through just because Steve said so. They won't rabidly attack for Tim Cook and I suspect most of them are now at the Cult of Elon anyway.
I know Corsairs implementation is different to Apples, so it wouldn't surprise me that Dell
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What Apple fanboys always hate admitting is that a lot of Apple's ideas are ill-conceived but persist because Apple continues to drive them.
What Apple haters always hate admitting is that: there are no Apple fanbois
Hit the Touch Bar by accident more than on purpose (Score:5, Insightful)
I seriously hit the Touch Bar far more by accident more than on purpose. When either of my middle fingers go for the numbers in the top row of the keyboard, they frequently graze the Mission Control (F3) or Mute (F10) buttons. It's really disconcerting when you're in the middle of typing something and all of a sudden your windows go flying everywhere from F3. They need to be full tactile buttons, full stop.
I do occasionally hit the brightness and audio function keys intentionally. It's still a much worse experience with non-tactile buttons.
accidental ribbon touches... yes1 (Score:2)
You can't hold your hands ergonomically and avoid the ribbon if you have middle fingers that are significantly longer than the index/pink fingers. I don't know how many times I've fired up the Music app and started playing music, muted others accidentally (toggling off sound), darkened the screen, at the wrong time (during a meeting, etc.)
The ribbon couldn't die fast enough.
Re: accidental ribbon touches... yes1 (Score:2)
Iâ(TM)ve been using a separate split ergonomic keyboard (Microsoft hardware!) for 20 years. Thereâ(TM)s no way I can contort my hands and wrists for a prolonged period to use the straight laptop keyboard when Iâ(TM)m away from my desk. Result: the problem you both describe. Incessant interruptions because of accidentally hitting a key or because Iâ(TM)ve had to look down to find the key I want (thereâ(TM)s no touch typing with this thing)
The touch bar was good (Score:1)
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It also wasn't particularly easy to program.
function keys have always been weird (Score:2)
This is your brain on drugs with bacon and toast. (Score:2)
Specs are just numbers. (Score:1)
The rep was trying hard to explain the differences between two laptops in layman terms.
The girl was comparing the easthetics of the laptops to her bag and decided that the brown one was the best fit.
The bar may be there for other reasons than functionality.
Dell (Score:2)
Dell put in this touchbar, because it's really thin internally and it allows cooling that hot intel chip without making a fat laptop. Since nobody is touch typing on their function keys... why not? As for Apple, I don't think they got rid of it because it was awful, they got rid of it because it's a very expensive bit of hardware that consumers were not really enamoured by, so it did nothing for Apple's bottom line.. At least that's what I think. I actually think some of the Asus designs with a screen in th
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The function keys are essential, and the touch bar was anything but "keys". It was horrible. Good riddance!
Why call it apple if it's Dell and Corsair (Score:2)
Predictable (Score:2)
This is what happens if you're not an innovator in the industry, just a bottom feeder who chases the leader. Due to the time lag between you learning about the competitor's new features and rolling it out in your product, the market leader will have learnt a lesson, and the follower starts to sell to an annoyed audience. Outsourcing your research to your competitor has a price
Status screen (Score:2)
It would make a fine status screen for constant monitoring of the CPU temp, running processes, etc.
I am not very familiar with Apple's offering, but if all it did was offer a way to input eMoJiEz!1 with no way to reconfingure it, yeah then it was just a useless gimick for people who don't have the mindset of a 12 year old.
Just include customizable keys (Score:2)
The "Touch Bar" is annoying because it complicates routine functions and removes the tactile feedback of a physical key. If I want to change the volume on my Mac, I have to 1) look at the touchbar, 2) find the "volume control" icon, 3) keep looking at the touchbar as I move the slider, and then (optionally) find and press the "x" on the touchbar so I can go back to using other functions. On my old Mac, if I want to change the volume, there's a specific pair of keys for that (which I can find by touch with