Nvidia and AMD GPUs Are Returning To Shelves and Prices Are Finally Falling (theverge.com) 78
For nearly two years, netting a PS5, Xbox Series X, or AMD Radeon and Nvidia RTX graphics cards without paying a fortune has been a matter of luck (or a lot of skill). At its peak, scalpers were successfully charging double or even triple MSRP for a modern GPU. But it's looking like the great GPU shortage is nearly over. From a report: In January, sites including Tom's Hardware reported that prices were finally beginning to drop, and drop they did; they've now dropped an average of 30 percent in the three months since. On eBay, the most popular graphics cards are only commanding a street price of $200-$300 over MSRP. And while that might still seem like a lot, some have fallen further: used Nvidia RTX 3080 Ti or AMD RX 6900 XT are currently fetching less than their original asking price, a sure sign that sanity is returning to the marketplace.
Just as importantly, some graphics cards are actually staying in stock at retailers when their prices are too high -- again, something that sounds perfectly normal but that we haven't seen in a while. For many months, boutiques like my local retailer Central Computers could only afford to sell you a GPU as part of a big PC bundle, but now it's making every card available on its own. GameStop is selling a Radeon RX 6600 for just $10 over MSRP, and it hasn't yet sold out. Newegg has also continually been offering an RTX 3080 Ti for just $10 over MSRP (after rebate, too) -- even if $1,200 still seems high for that card's level of performance.
Just as importantly, some graphics cards are actually staying in stock at retailers when their prices are too high -- again, something that sounds perfectly normal but that we haven't seen in a while. For many months, boutiques like my local retailer Central Computers could only afford to sell you a GPU as part of a big PC bundle, but now it's making every card available on its own. GameStop is selling a Radeon RX 6600 for just $10 over MSRP, and it hasn't yet sold out. Newegg has also continually been offering an RTX 3080 Ti for just $10 over MSRP (after rebate, too) -- even if $1,200 still seems high for that card's level of performance.
Re: (Score:1)
Of course, he's grabbing Nvidia's pussy because AMD doesn't seem to know what a pussy is.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The one who doesn't understand differences? I didn't make the rules, it was like this when I got shat into the world. Take it up with them. Preferably in THE Ukraine.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:CNN News Flash (Score:5, Informative)
The Ukraine was The Soviet way of saying it. The nation is just named Ukraine, not The Ukraine. If you call it The Ukraine then you're either a dumbass or a Russian bootlicker. Or, you know, just made a mistake, that's fine too. But don't pretend it's supposed to be that way, that's just trolling.
They're down $200 (Score:4, Informative)
On a 100% increase. They're still wildly overpriced. RTX3090, MSRP: 1,499, retail still hovers about $2.5-3k. There seems to be somewhat of a decrease but it's 10%.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:They're down $200 (Score:4, Interesting)
Seems to be that in Europe, but in US between the removal of GPUs from import tariff categories as well as general increase in availability undercutting scalpers, it seems that latest prices in US are MSRP or close to it already.
You can even find some outlets that are now selling slightly under MSRP in US, though that is still rare. Everything seems to be suggesting that cutting out scalpers by increasing availability forced scalpers to sell off a lot of their inventory ASAP, driving prices down AND reducing scalping on GPUs in general dramatically. It's just not worth it to scalp GPUs any more, because prices are dropping so if you can't resell it immediately, you're almost certainly selling it at a loss as a scalper.
Prices of electricity going up in a lot of places combined with a dip in ETH price also made mining a whole lot less profitable. Couple that with the knowledge that next generation of GPUs from nvidia is on the way, and miners are also reducing their purchases as they likely starting to accumulate liquidity to purchase the next gen GPUs.
So we're set for having a perfect mini-storm for lowering GPU prices, at least for a couple of months. Until we figure out what's going on with world's supply chain between the neon issues coming from Russia-Ukraine war and China zero covid horror show that is unfolding right now.
Re:They're down $200 (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not entirely convinced there's a "supply chain problem" as you traditionally see it (where something causes a restriction in supply).
I think what really happened was a distortion in demand - because people are stuck at home for a couple of years unable to travel, well, all that spending money had to go somewhere, and it went into people buying lots of stuff. A lot more stuff. After all, remember the whole Port of LA thing? It wasn't because of no people, it was no people and an increase in traffic - in 2020 deep in the heart of the lockdowns the port traffic was 125% of normal. That's a gigantic increase in traffic, coupled with less workers meant it got backed up quick (traffic growth is typically much smaller and more easily planned for).
Likewise, people are cranking out semiconductors as fast as they can - fabs are still going full bore, so why are there shortages? Well, brokers for one, but likely a huge increase in demand for product.
Ukraine and China are recent things basically happening in 2022. The shortages happened much earlier, and while factory capacity in some places was limited, it wasn't that limited.
The only reasonable explanation would be simple demand - people just bought a ton more stuff - either work from home demanded a huge increase in laptop purchases, people bought more luxury equipment like home theatre systems and TVs, or gaming PCs or other things.
There were even shortages of stuff like paper, and printing presses were reporting delays in getting printed materials like books out.
So I think the shortages were really due to a shift in demand - people stopped travelling and spent their money elsewhere. Given trillions of dollars the rourism market had, that pent-up demand to spend money on recreation expressed itself.
The reason demand is letting down is simple - places are opening up, people are travelling again, and money that would've been spent on a book now goes into an airplane ticket. Why visit a place in VR when you can visit it for real again? As the world returns back to normal, consumption patterns will return to normal, maybe even slump because we stopped buying the latest and greatest graphics card because we really wanted to go travel instead, and the GPU we currently have is "good enough".
We may even experience a shortage in travel capacity as people eager to travel can't book anymore flights because they're all full.
Re: (Score:2)
Almost no people on the planet need or even want a discrete GPU. That is a very specific and niche tool with very specific and niche applications. It's why Intel is the #1 manufacturer of GPUs for PCs by an utterly overwhelming margin when you look at all PCs sold. And #2 is AMD. With their integrated line of GPUs. Nvidia is a very, VERY distant third.
All while being clear cut, and utterly dominant #1 in discrete GPU market.
Because almost none of PCs are sold with a discrete GPU. They use integrated GPUs an
Re: (Score:2)
Example: https://www.mindfactory.de/pro... [mindfactory.de] (in stock at €1.849 at this point in time, might be higher or lower later).
The same models start at around $1999.99 on newegg [newegg.com] (US, and not including sales tax).
You may find cheaper models if you also consider used or open box, but given some of the recent bullshittery from newegg [youtube.com], I'm not going to include open box in this as a v
Re: They're down $200 (Score:1)
You can find the listings but guaranteed you canâ(TM)t actually buy them. NewEgg limits to a few per customer and implements more of a lottery style whether or not you can buy them. Even Dell is unable to source them at a reasonable rate, unless theyâ(TM)re Quadro or server models.
Re: (Score:2)
You can buy the one listed on mindfactory right away. It says "over five in storage, maximum amount you can order: 1"
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
They're still wildly overpriced.
If customers are willing to buy them, they are not overpriced.
Re:They're down $200 (Score:4, Interesting)
well, this particular customer said bye-bye a while ago, i have other hobbies to tend to until prices return to pre-rtx levels plus inflation (not even 3 series, series 2 prices were already a rip off long before "the mysterious big shortage", and even back then as much as i wanted any possible increase in performance for vr, i wasn't going to pay luxury prices for totally useless experimental predictive ai chips that nobody ever asked for).
so probably never. the rapid degeneration and clinical death of elite dangerous (including dropping vr support) helped a lot, plus the realization that these days most aaa games are unfinished/mainstream crap not worth the investment anyway. ironically, my trusty old 1080ti still feels almost like overkill today :D
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
RTX3090, MSRP: 1,499
That isn't being genuine. That is MSRP on the reference card from Nvidia. 3rd party cards are going to be more by merit of better fans, thermal pads, backplates, RGB functions, sag brackets, etc. Also, we have a 25% tariff slapped on these since their inception thanks to Trumpybear.
Re: (Score:1)
Most cards go under MSRP near the end of the cycle. They've already announced the 4090s. There is no tariff on electronics like that, they're made in Taiwan.
Re: (Score:2)
Even Nvidia's own Founders Edition models are technically not considered reference. Nvidia has been accused of binning the GPUs for their own Founders Editions, giving them higher OC potential, than what they sell to AIB partners. This made Founders Edition cards somewhat popular among overclocking enthusiasts who will put an after-market waterblock onto the GPU for liquid cooling, keeping the value relatively high due to
Re: (Score:2)
Even Nvidia's own Founders Edition models are technically not considered reference. [...] But if we did consider Founders Edition as reference, after all we need something that effectively works as a reference to relate other products to
Reference designs have never, ever been considered the peak of potential performance. They have only ever been highly reliable (we hope) designs which demonstrate to vendors how to implement the central part, in this case obviously the GPU. The purpose is not to provide you a performance reference, that's nonsense. The purpose is to prove OEMs with a design reference. That's why it's called a reference design. They might be more overclockable than others' cards with the same cooling, because nvidia has acce
Re: (Score:2)
https://www.ekwb.com/blog/did-... [ekwb.com]
Re: (Score:1)
Lowest I saw a 3090 was 1699 and I almost bit, but I'll keep waiting.
Sure (Score:5, Insightful)
There are only so many ways to buy things online, and they are going to dominate them. It will be just like concert tickets.
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like capitalism and the free market are working as designed
Re: (Score:1)
"Communism system was better. We all got to stay home and play with a stick.... and everyone and their stick were equals."
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I make a product and you can't buy it because some fucking middlman has bought them all and is driving up prices.
If a middleman can buy up a product and then drive up prices, it is because the manufacturer underpriced the product.
One way or another, the customer will pay the market-clearing price. Proper pricing means the profit goes to the manufacturer, who is incentivized to ramp up production. Underpricing means the profits go to parasite middlemen.
When demand exceeds supply, GPU manufacturers should either raise prices or sell directly to consumers via auction.
Re: (Score:2)
If a middleman can buy up a product and then drive up prices, it is because the manufacturer underpriced the product.
If someone is always going to buy up all the products and price them higher, then your theory makes no sense. The manufacturer could raise prices forever, but they wouldn't. They would go as high as the market allows.
The problem is, the market is the scalpers, not consumers.
Re: (Score:3)
If someone is always going to buy up all the products and price them higher, then your theory makes no sense.
That is not how markets work.
If the scalpers raise the price, they will sell fewer units and LOSE MONEY.
Scalpers make money when, and only when, products are underpriced.
Concert tickets are commonly scalped because performers prefer a full venue rather than maximum profit, and underprice the tickets to ensure they are all sold. An auction would be more sensible, maximizing profit while shutting out the scalpers.
There are no scalpers for milk, household appliances, or other goods sold at a profit-maximizing
Re: (Score:2)
Capitalism is I make a product and you buy it
Whoa there, champ. Do you have any idea how something like a grocery store works? The manufacturer sells to a major distributor, who sells to another more local distributor, who MAY sell it to the more major grocery store chains, or may sell it to an even more local distributor before going on the shelves for you to buy.
Now think about everything else that you buy... a car, a comic book, copy of Windows... now how about services like Hote
Re: (Score:2)
It most certainly IS capitalism. If it occurs within a capitalistic system, and other forces aren't causing the phenomenon to occur, then the behavior that naturally occurs within a capitalistic system is most certainly capitalism.
Re: (Score:2)
It also occurs in the barter system. And communism. Buying and selling goods happen in all systems.
Capitalism happens when people use capital to generate more capital.
Re: (Score:3)
Capitalism means capital controls the means of production, and that's it. Anything else you might have imagined it meant, you only imagined.
There are lots of kinds of capitalism, the kind we're experiencing now is best referred to as corruption leading to fascism.
Re: (Score:3)
Except that seems to be precisely what the story is saying, that you no longer have to go to scalpers to get these. They aren't 'normally' priced yet but it's not being scalped as much.
Scalping exists when the demand/supply relationship is such that the market price goes well above what the legitimate seller thinks is wise to charge. Between GPU vendors hiking prices and demand being satisfied, the scalpers aren't really a thing in the GPU market right now.
That's not to say prices are reasonable, but it's
Re: (Score:2)
Except that seems to be precisely what the story is saying
I'm saying the story is wrong, or at least leads to the wrong conclusions. You will still have to go to scalpers for anything that is in demand, even if only slightly in demand. Too many people have made themselves into middlemen due to the ease with which you can be, thanks to online sales.
Even in the article, prices aren't back down all the way, and I don't think they ever will be.
Re: (Score:2)
Ok, but I can go to online retailers and find all those products ready to order, in stock. Scalpers are not currently a thing of consequence in the current GPU market.
Can they make a return? Sure if supply/demand is out of whack for the price point, but that's been the case forever.
Re: (Score:2)
Scalping exists when the demand/supply relationship is such that the market price goes well above what the legitimate seller thinks is wise to charge.
That's mostly only true in a monopoly. AMD can't raise prices to scalping level because everyone will flock to Nvidia, and AMD and Nvidia cannot agree to a price floor because laws forbid it. Scalping artificially creates a monopoly/collusion situation by removing competition from the market.
Re: (Score:2)
That doesn't seem to hold true. If AMD GPUs can be sold by scalpers at a certain price point because people are willing to spend that much even for an AMD GPU, then it stands to reason AMD could bump prices and make the sales. If what you said was true, then the AMD GPU scalping wouldn't have been effective.
Scalping only works if people are willing to buy at the higher price point, and in fact a purchaser would rather buy from a traditional reseller than a scalper, so if the retail price was equal to what
Re: (Score:2)
it's no longer scalpers setting the price point.
Setting no, influencing yes. If they set it lower the scalpers will buy them up again because the margin between their cost and what others will pay will be larger. Therefore the cards are certainly still overpriced specifically because of the existence of scalpers.
Buisness are normalizing. (Score:2)
Being over 2 years now, most businesses have finally gotten adequate safety controls and policies to restrict Covid spreading, as well a good enough number of the workforce is vaccinated so the severity if they do catch it is much less.
People are going back to work, often with a new higher paid (and higher responsibility) jobs, which they don't have as much time to play video games.
The rise in energy costs, means there is even less profitability with crypto mining
Localities are more open to have chip proces
Re: (Score:3)
Honestly, I'm not so sure. Russia and Ukraine are responsible for a lot of raw materials for semiconductor manufacturing. For example, Azovstal in Mariupol supplied the raw gas for a lot of neon extraction that happened in the same city, and that iron and steelworks factory as well as the refinery for neon have been basically deleted by Russians now.
Add to this that zero covid remains a thing in a lot of Asia including China. Just look at the current mess in Shanghai. I very much doubt that we're done with
Re: (Score:2)
It is manageable, not ideal.
Having Russia out of the picture for Raw Materials, isn't ideal, however it is clear that isn't a source to try to get Raw Materials from.
Covid is still an issue, but it is mostly manageable, and we know what will happen next when it appears.
Chaos is bad for business, business like orderly above all other things. Good regulations that change rapidly are worse than a bad regulation that stays the same for a business.
Re: (Score:3)
There are three main sources for neon. Right now, all three are either having extreme problems (China, Russia) or fully offline (Ukraine).
And if you think covid is manageable, just look at what's happening in Shanghai. And then note that this is the "lockdown lite" compared to what's happening in actual regions that produce raw materials.
Re: (Score:2)
> if you think covid is manageable, just look at what's happening in Shanghai
Is covid really the issue, or is it authoritarianism?
Re: (Score:2)
Yes.
Re: (Score:1)
> Covid is still an issue, but it is mostly manageable
HOW DARE YOU! THIS ISN'T A COMMON COLD SIR!!!
when the new generation comes prices will go up (Score:3)
Right now, the scalpers and miners know that a new generation of GPUs from both nVidia and AMD is around the corner...
They do not want to be holding up the hot potatoes, there is still thirst for Graphic cards in the market, so better to get rid of the inventory (scalpers), and freeze new GPU purchases (miners) until the New GPUs come out, and only then resume the scalping/purchase for mining.
Add to that the impending (for a few years now) shift of Ethreum from PoW to PoS, and both miners and scalpers are cautious.
The only good news is that, when the new GPU architectures come out, there will be an uptick of Used Mining GPUs on the market. But those GPUs come with their own issues, so buyers beware.
PS: Yes I know there are altcoins that can get good use of old and underpowered GPUs, but still, most miners using GPUs will go for the Shinny, or thanks to the (para)virtualization features of the new architectures, try to mine more than one type of coin per GPU (for example, one coin that depends mainly on total GPU VRAM, another that depends mainly on VRAM Bandwith and yet another that depends mainly on GPU FLOPs prowes), that way, you end up squeezing all 3 aspects of your GPU, instead of just one.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Buy and then sell for more sounds easy but it is only easy in the specific case of a supply shortage.
The next generation is exactly the generation the scalpers should be leery about. The next generation is the one where the manufacturers themselves may merely pretend that there is a continuing shortage, for their own interests, as *everything* they initially ship will be picked up by the scalpers at whatever the manufacturers decide they should pay.
Sanctions? (Score:4, Interesting)
I wonder how many miners & scalpers were from Russia and now don't have the funds or ability to purchase GPUs?
Re: (Score:2)
Not only nVidia and AMD, you see - Intel is going to launch their own GPUs this year.
Re: (Score:2)
That will be a non event.
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps, but I'm hoping it'll increase competition and help drive prices down.
Re: (Score:1)
The only good news is that, when the new GPU architectures come out, there will be an uptick of Used Mining GPUs on the market. But those GPUs come with their own issues, so buyers beware.
yeah, not going to buy a used GPU that was under 100% load 24/7.
Osborne Effect (Score:3)
Next generation is about to come out.
absolutely not (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Now ya'll might be too young to remember this but nVidia's graphics cards used to bottom out at the 050 tier. They are budget cards for budget prices. You get the Ti version for 150$. You used to get to the 070 tier before you were spending 400 dollars on a graphics card. You're not seeing prices return to normal, not by a long shot, at best we're seeing a dip in prices before the cryptoids go hard on buying them all up again.
To be fair, what the cards used to do was dramatically simpler than what they can do now. I get that if you just compare top-of-the-line-then to now, or bottom-of-the-line-then to now there's a big price difference. But it's got to count for something that cards now - for instance - have many outputs. My 3080 is driving three 4k monitors and one 1080p. The utility has increased.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The 1050 Ti is selling for $300 right now. I was able to purchase it for $150 several years ago. We're not comparing old cards and new cards here, it's the exact same card.
MIxed Feelings but New GPU (Score:1)
At last! (Score:3)
Finally, I'll be able to replace my Hercules monochrome graphics card with a CGA card. Colors shall be mine!
Re: (Score:2)
lol, I was there at the time on the 1980s :)
Re: (Score:2)
Pfft, what a waste of money. Just buy a Commodore 64.
Re: (Score:1)
Na. TI-99/4A. Loaded BSD unix from cassette.
down, but for different reasons (Score:2)
inflation in the US is really high right now. so a gaming rig is not a priority.
as demand goes down, scalpers and resellers are forced to lower their prices
Because the 4000s will blow them out of the water (Score:1)
The consumer grade 4000 series is a die shrink from 8nm to 5nm. This is enormous, and the top 3090 cards currently being sold will become equivalent to mid range in performance only more hot and noisy in just a few months.