How Much Energy Powers a Good Life? Less Than You're Using, Says a New Report (npr.org) 267
How much energy does it take to have a good and healthy life? A new Stanford University study has found that the answer is far less than the average American is using. From a report: Comparing energy use and quality of life across 140 countries, researchers found that the magic number is 75 gigajoules a year, or less. For context, one gigajoule of energy is equal to about 8 gallons of gasoline. Americans use 284 gigajoules a year per capita, nearly four times that much energy, according to the new research. "That suggests to me that we could nudge energy use downwards in a bunch of hyper-consuming countries and not just make a more equitable world, but perhaps make ourselves healthier and happier," said lead author and professor of earth system science Rob Jackson. The link between more energy and better quality of life is established. Globally, around 759 million people lived without electricity and 2.6 billion without clean cooking fuel in 2019, according to the World Bank.
End the scarcity mindset (Score:5, Insightful)
We can produce abundant low-cost energy without cutting back. Everyone on the planet should be able to use 284 gigajoules or more per year if they want. All it takes is the political willpower to build the power-generation infrastructure.
We don't have to cut back, and the developing world should absolutely not be asked to.
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Most of what scientists & campaigners are proposing would make the world a nicer, cleaner, greener, safer & more equitable place for everyone to live, including Americans. Why are so many Americans against that?
Because your proposals necessarily lead to a poorer and less advanced society where the elites get to do what they want, each consuming thousands of times the per capita energy of the poor, while the working class fights for the scraps. We Americans want what we have for everyone, and there's no reason everyone can't have it.
Think abundance, and drop the malthusian bullshit because China and India are not about to cut back any time soon. We have virtually limitless resources and all we need is political wi
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Because your proposals necessarily lead to a poorer and less advanced society where the elites get to do what they want, each consuming thousands of times the per capita energy of the poor, while the working class fights for the scraps. We Americans want what we have for everyone, and there's no reason everyone can't have it.
Ahahahah. That's exactly what America alreayd is my dude.
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Reference needed
More energy production = more fossil fuels burned, more pollution, more warming, etc. Why would you think everyone on the planet should be allowed (able?) to consume that much energy?
Do you have a hidden source of unlimited clean energy? I doubt it.
Even if you did, say if we had nuclear-fusion plants, then we'd be experiencing another boom in energy usage, which would only stop when the energy we produce starts heating the world to unbearable levels again (not through CO2 but because energ
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It's cheaper to just use less energy though, and you end up with a better quality of life too.
Take insulation as an example. If you properly insulate your home you don't need so much heating and cooling. Your home is always a pleasant temperature, you aren't fighting it and don't have draughts or warm and cold areas. You even get some sound insulation for free. You have more disposable income because you spend less on energy.
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What about you? (Score:2)
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"Less Than You're Using" (Score:2)
The sun produces more than enough (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorta (Score:2)
I mean, I'm sure there's energy inefficient devices that people use (and that might be able to be replaced with energy efficient). We could also work towards a culture that throws less away and uses things less like single-use plastics. Maybe get away from "buy it, use it, it breaks, buy a new one" mentality that some appliances and tools are a part of (some things just seem to be designed to break or not last very long). Repairs on certain items can come out to almost being the cost of a new item (I've had
Excess is our way of life (Score:2)
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6m^2 of floor space is enough for one person. A single 24m^2 room apartment would be enough for 3 people, no problem. Why would you want separate rooms comrade?
6m^2/person was considered to be enough in the USSR - if you don't have 6-7 people in your two room apartment, you can't get a bigger one.
How much space do you consider to be enough for anyone?
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My father and his sister were raised (by both parents) in a 900 sq. ft. house. I couldn't imagine trying to raise two children in a house that small today. Of course, we probably spend more time inside than they did.
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People forget that 400 years ago, you didn't have separate rooms and were living with other people. So other people saw you naked, saw you having sex. Nowadays, we have to protect children from the reality of female nipples.
I don't get it (Score:2)
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What's the breakeven point on the gluttonous consumption of your EV? Last I looked a Model S was 230,000 miles to start, assuming no repairs until then. Slightly less if you can guarantee nuclear or hydro charging (wind and solar also have breakeven problems).
500,000 pounds of earth needs to be mined to make just one Tesla battery and the million-mile battery for the Model 3 seems to have disappeared from marketing (as well as the ability to rent it out as an autonomous robotaxi while you work by 2021).
So
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Electric and hybrid vehicles tend to last longer than ICE vehicles. 300,000 miles vs 200,000 on average.
Additionally, while I'm not one to talk about promissory technologies, alternatives to lithium batteries exist. I'm particularly excited about sodium-ion batteries. ... are you vice signaling?
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Informative)
What's the breakeven point on the gluttonous consumption of your EV? Last I looked a Model S was 230,000 miles to start, assuming no repairs until then. Slightly less if you can guarantee nuclear or hydro charging (wind and solar also have breakeven problems).
In terms of CO2? Like 50k miles. https://youtu.be/L2IKCdnzl5k?t... [youtu.be]
If you drive around the average amount, it's clearly better to get an EV.
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're going to consider the entire chain, make sure to do it on both sides.
For ICEV, there's the mining of rare metals for calatysts, the production of hundreds more parts (ever been to an engine foundry?). And the fuel itself: to refine 1 kg of oil into its end products, another kg or so of oil is burned. Then there's transportation, etc.
RW reports indicate Tesla batteries are good for pretty close to 1 million miles anyway.
You will consume nothing (Score:2, Funny)
Aren't the estimates way too high? (Score:2)
Even 75GJ is about 20833KWh, which is a whooping 1736KWh a month for one person!
Even if I add another about another 100KWh each month to account for a car it's still an awful lot.
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Is your heating source electric and if so, how has your climate temperature been? How hot will your climate get in summer and how is your energy usage then?
Also, a family of four will look better for per-capita than someone living on their own in a house, as air conditioning and heating won't change that much for 4 versus 1 person, and those are generally the largest energy uses for a household.
On cars, 100Kwh is about 3 gallons of gasoline. It's not unusual for a commute to burn 40 gallons in a month, so
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> I use for a family of four 636KWh a month
No you don't. That's what you pay your power company for a residence.
All the things you buy, all the places you go, and all the food you eat have additional energy costs.
Total country usage / total country population
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You forgot plane flights, but more importantly indirect use - fuel for making concrete for roads and buildings, fuel for making fertilizer for crops, and fuel for transporting trinkets from Amazon. The numbers are total country energy divided by the population size, so overheads get included (though perhaps not those for producing those trinkets in China).
So how do we actually do that? (Score:2)
Without tanking quality of life or costing a fortune, I mean?
Some quick calculations for myself:
1 GJ == 278 kWh, I have a 2,000 sf house with electric heat, hot water, and range, so fairly average
My power bills indicate a yearly usage of ~40-50 GJ/yr electric, with 80+% of that being for a/c, heat, hot water, cooking, and refrigeration
Since covid, I only burn about 4 gal/wk or less of gas (100 mi/wk of inefficient short trips to the store, etc.), for another 25 GJ/yr or so
Just those two things total 75GJ, n
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Indeed; I thought my household is pretty efficient (and it is, by US standards). In direct use, my family of four used 100MCF natural gas in the past 12 months, about 6000 kW-hr electricity, and roughly 1000 gallons of gasoline across two vehicles. This doesn't count indirect use like all the energy used to make or deliver any of the other goods and services we used.
The conversion factors I found puts this at about 64GJ/person per year of direct use for my family. I don't know how to reduce this much fur
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Use a clothesline instead of a dryer. I'm not joking, that's what the article says. Walk more.
Define Good Life (Score:2)
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I'm not sure your example of over-priced power-hungry audiophile snake oil is working the way you wanted it to. To me, that's a perfect example of something you could change, save money, save power, and still enjoy life the same as before the change.
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Absolutley. This thread is full of this shit, just people unable to imagine that anythig but the way things are right now could be as good or better.
Like I used to keep my desktop PC running 24/7, just to have it always available and not have to save and resore all my stuff. I thought it was worth the convenience. At some point though I just set it to sleep after 30 minutes, and guess what, I never missed it, certainly not during the 8 hours a day I'm working and the 8 hours a day I'm sleeping, which prior
Light (Score:2)
Up to 30% of Americans suffer from Seasonal Affective Disorder because their indoor environment is up to 10x too dim.
Until we can all afford sunlight-level brightness inside, it's not enough (at least for many people). That's a physiological requirement.
The average American or average of Americans? (Score:3)
I'm curious how the energy use of the average American compares to the average energy use of all Americans. I suspect that these numbers are pretty skewed by the top 10% or even 1% of Americans. So if the average American reduced their energy consumption, it would have much less impact than the most energy using Americans reducing their use to be on par with most of the rest.
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A lot of it is because in America you have to drive much further than you do in most other developed countries.
Japan is a great example of how to reduce the need to drive everywhere. They don't have strict zones where only homes or only offices or only industry can be built. Most people live within walking distance of shops and public transport, and the public transport is both cheap and frequent. Legendary reliability.
Because in America you have to drive from your home to everything you need to visit, ener
Conversely, we could raise everyone up (Score:5, Interesting)
Why not spend our energy doing that instead?
The irony? - you have to be rich to cut it... (Score:2)
For most ordinary people on average incomes, the choice of cutting energy comes down to actually being able to afford to do so.
It's all very well to talk about "going off grid", installing solar panels, buying an electric vehicle - but those things cost money, a lot of money.
Not sure about the US, but over here in the UK, to get a solar installation that can replace the bulk of your home energy usage, requires a sum of money that is beyond the reach of most people. You need a spare $15k to $20k at the very
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Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:2)
Ok, you first
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Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Insightful)
China is achieving the same level of development without breaking its society.
China is a dictatorship where dissent can make you disappear, or worse. Most of us consider that pretty broken by default.
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it's China's fault that America is a selfish asshole country that's dragging everyone else down with them.
I'm not American. Would rather live in America than China any day though.
America is probably the only major constraint on China dragging the world down with them. Not many people flee to China for a better life.
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Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Interesting)
Ask the Uyghurs how broken their society is. That is, any you can find that aren't too busy being raped, tortured, forcibly sterilized, or otherwise "re-educated" by representatives of the Chinese government.
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:2)
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This isn't a game of monopoly. Someone else gaining doesn't mean that you necessarily lose.
We live in a time of abundance unique in recorded human history. We have more than adequate resources to meet the basic needs, and more, of every person on the planet without depriving you or anyone else of anything. We only lack the will to do so.
"why the fuck would I be interested in a more equitable world?"
This puts me in mind of John Rawls' veil of ignorance. He contents that "a just society is a society that if you knew everything about it, you’d be willin
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To me you have to be careful, I don't think society should be completely equitable I want to make my children's life a bit easier than the other children otherwise what is the point of working.
The criteria is OK as so long as someone is willing to take a certain amount of disadvantage, and it is very subjective I am sure a person from Ethiopia would be quite happy to be randomly placed in the USA.
But as a whole I do agree society should be much more equitable, the trick is how to do that without removing th
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Insightful)
You think that less energy usage equals a lower quality of life, so you oppose the very idea and won't even learn about what the report says.
You are part of the problem and remember that others use even more than you, thus depriving you even though you're near the top.
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If I used less energy, I would have to pay less money for it and would either have more money to save for other things or would need to work less.
If I don't do that, it means that however much energy I use I consider to be "worth it". If I have to reduce how much energy I use, it would be worse for me in some ways (either be inconveniencing me or by making me spend more money on, say, newer and more expensive, but also more power efficient servers).
I someone earns more than me, they should be able to use th
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You seem to be operating under the delusion that energy = money = happiness. This is completely irrational.
If I don't do that, it means that however much energy I use I consider to be "worth it".
No. No one makes decisions this way. Neither does anyone act perfectly rationally and with access to perfect information. It just doesn't happen.
I will guarantee that you waste energy that could be saved without impacting your life in any meaningful way.
You might say, "not thinking about it is worth it to me" but you have absolutely no idea what those costs actually are -- or what the costs would be
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Money can't buy happiness. We've known this for thousands of years.
Money CAN buy happiness (or things that make me happy), just that there are diminishing returns for it. I am more happy now than when I earned less for the same time working. I would be way more happy if I had a lot of money and did not have to work for a living.
It has diminishing returns though, I'm sure going from 20billion to 21 billion does not increase happiness by that much compared to how going from (thousands) to 1 billion would increase my happiness or even if I doubled my money.
You seem to be operating under the delusion that energy = money = happiness. This is completely irrational.
If things that make
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Money CAN buy happiness (or things that make me happy)
Nonsense.
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Do you work for the minimum wage or for more? If you work for a higher salary, why? Is the job easier? I wouldn't think so, usually people do not pay more for an easier job. Do you do it because you want more money? Does this mean you yourself believe that nonsense, otherwise why would you want more money? Just quit and live on welfare.
For me, money can buy happiness. I am happier if I have a better video card, tape deck or can go on vacation and rent a good apartment there, eat at restaurants and go to con
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We need a carbon tax.
No. We don't need any more regressive consumption taxes, because all they do is disproportionately punish the people who earn the least amount of money.
The median US household income was $67,521 in 2020. The reason people aren't all going out and buying Teslas* to cut their carbon footprint is because at least half of working Americans simply can't afford one. Yeah, on the upper side of the income scale you've got the folks who may not want to buy a sedan because they love their big coal rollin' pickup t
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:3)
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:2)
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If you can get a 55k loan for a $275 Monthly payment, I want that deal too.
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The up front cost for solar is essentially nothing. If I didn't have to deal with my HOA, they would of been nothing. I just got solar installed and turned on Jan 1 2022. I got a zero down loan from a credit union that already had a working relationship with my solar vendor. Very easy process.
You do obviously have to pay the solar loan back and that's more then your power bill, but it is an investment into the property and literally going to pay for itself.
I got a 16 panel system and pay $245 monthly (I cou
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We don't need any more regressive consumption taxes
The solution is to use a carbon tax to replace even more regressive payroll taxes.
Fuel and energy consumption is disincentivized, productive work is rewarded, and low-income people have more money to spend.
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It doesn't have to be voluntary or mandatory. It can be structural. For example, Americans (and other countries) build sprawling suburbs, not necessarily because that's what people want, but due to historical building codes. Building a more mixed style of housing like European cities would mean more people choosing to live closer to commercial spaces, requiring less energy for transport and probably a bunch of other efficiencies. But it doesn't remove your choice, you can still buy in the suburbs if you lik
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Selfishness of Americans somehow continues to surprise me.
This is why we are going to have at least 2-3 degrees of warming by the end of the century, and probably more as tipping points are reached.
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You think that less energy usage equals a lower quality of life, so you oppose the very idea and won't even learn about what the report says.
You are part of the problem and remember that others use even more than you, thus depriving you even though you're near the top.
Nothing that rich people do makes me feel deprived.
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Nothing that rich people do makes me feel deprived.
Not even literally stealing your money?
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Not even literally stealing your money?
That is government. But I can see how they get lumped together.
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You think that less energy usage equals a lower quality of life, so you oppose the very idea and won't even learn about what the report says.
From what I can make of the report it's a series of non sequiturs and over generalizations.
What does GINI have to do with energy intensity?
Does more energy improve air quality?
Why does the inefficiency map look the way it does? Canada is more energy efficient than the US yet in their inefficiency map this is reversed. Oh and Iceland all lit up in red... those inefficient bastards getting their energy from hydro and geothermal. Clearly climate is having a massive impact on energy usage yet this isn't eve
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>"In my view the structural issue with the west that causes more energy consumption is household size too few people under the same roof.
That's always the danger of technocratic scientism: "hey there's too many people in Nigeria and not enough in Canada, therefore Canada should import millions of Nigerians, genius!"
Or in this case: "people in India who ride bicycles to work are happier than drivers in L.A., therefore people in L.A. should all ride bicycles! Genius!"
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In my view the structural issue with the west that causes more energy consumption is household size too few people under the same roof.
That's always the danger of technocratic scientism: "hey there's too many people in Nigeria and not enough in Canada, therefore Canada should import millions of Nigerians, genius!"
Guess I worded this wrong. Was not intending to suggest something should change. It was more of a cultural observation. In some regions multigenerational households are common. In the US not so much.
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I mean, it is all well and good for someone to say the things in the study, until they try and see what it costs to change, and who do they expect to be able to pay
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:2)
First one is roughly 200 Watts, the other one about 75 Watts.
So does airconditioning at 18 degrees C really make you happier than at 22 degrees C.
We could cut down energy usage by a lot. Just a matter of some modesty towards life .
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Those aren't the only choices.
Run the A/C, but you don't need it at 72 degrees inside. I mean, if it's 86 outside, why not run the house at say, 78 degrees? You get rid of the swampiness and it's still cooler than outside. And you'll save money and energy.
It puzzles me to no end where Texans would in the summer have their A/C set to 72 degrees when it's 90+ outside. Even an inside setting of 80 degrees
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:2)
It's an unconfirmed theory of mine, but I suspect the American move to 200A happened because 240v countries made 100A the norm, so moving to 200A in 120v countries allowed using basically the same equipment (but 2 legs x 120v, instead of one leg @ 240v), which probably ends up being cheaper (due to global economies of scale) than building different stuff for 150A just for the US, Canada, and other 120v markets.
Or, it could just be US building codes trying to anticipate future use of tankless water heaters
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:3)
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We should be focused on harnessing more energy for humanity. Not spending less.
Using less is equivalent to gaining more. I'll use a car analogy.
My Buick gets 10 miles to the gallon and seats 5 people. If I trade it in for a Kia that gets 20 miles to the gallon and seats 5 people, I can drive twice as far for the same amount of money. It's just like getting twice the fuel for the same price.
Further, oil is a finite resource. If we all switched to more fuel efficient vehicles, not only will we be able to do more individually, we'll use less of a dwindling resource ensuring it will be
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Insightful)
And one should be EXTREMELY suspicious about people who cannot understand that we are living in a closed system with limited ressources.
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Informative)
The US spends >2 TRILLION dollars / year on health care, with results that are not measurably better than countries that spend 1/2 as much per capita. We coud spend a trillion a year on energy R&D if we wanted to.
We didn't get rid of animal waste in cities by banning horses. We got rid of it by developing better technology.
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Existing cars can use about 10% ammonium in their fuel.
That would be a big help if every car converted to it. But it clearly won't solve the problem.
Retrofitting worldwide car fleets to run on solely ammonium is not going to be possible within the timeframe where such a change is necessary. Similarly replacing worldwide car fleets with EVs is also not going to be possible within the timeframe where such a change is necessary.
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At least you acknowledge that your arbitrary deadline is ridiculous and unachievable.
It will be amazing to watch you malthusians try to come to grips with your cognitive dissonance as your deadline passes and humanity continues its upward progress in health and wellbeing.
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We are on the verge of cheap space transport.
Sure. And we'll have hotels on the moon by the 1990's.
Oh, wait...
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That's completely delusional.
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Insightful)
My energy use has gone down.
1. I WFH 4 days a week instead of commuting
2. I drive an EV instead of an ICE-V.
3. I have a flat-screen TV and a cool laptop instead of a CRT and a hot laptop.
All of these things increased my quality of life. The money I spent on gas and electricity is now available for other things.
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I like working from home,
but
I also like my old car - probably cheaper to maintain (in part because I can do some of the stuff), any mechanic can do it. EVs are expensive and if instead of buying an EV (or converting my car to electric power to avoid the touchscreens, apps and internet connection) I spent that money on fuel (even at current prices), it would last me many years, especially since I work from home.
I prefer CRT monitors and I have a rack with servers. Plasma TV is cool, but in some cases a CRT i
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CRT image looks good to me and the screen is more durable. I can also put things on top of a CRT TV. A CRT monitor is good for modern video games as well, since I can just lower the resolution if I my PC is not fast enough. Looking at the prices big CRT monitors get, I'm probably not the only one interested in them.
My plasma TV is still operational and replacing it would mean a lot of expense for a marginal improvement. I'm sure the black levels on modern TVs would be better than on my plasma, but probably
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It's easy to lash out at the, "ride your bike to work in the snow" type language these folks use. They are utterly clueless when it comes to communicating effectively. Or maybe that really is their point and they are just clueless.
However, there is an underlying truth in that we as Americans in the 21st century are behaving in a gluttonous and wasteful manner that would make our pioneer ancestors ashamed. If you've ever visited one of these pioneer homesteads demos and learned how they lived the 'waste n
Re: The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:2)
Jesus Tittyfucking Christ on a Pogostick what a load of horseshit. The reason they lived like they did was not out of choice(outside of a few small religious denominations) but because the lack of electricity and cheap and fast transportation made everything hellishly expensive and difficult to obtain. Outside of alcohol. Interestingly the portrayal of cowboys as drinkers of straight liquor is largely incorrect as the time of the cowboy was the time of the cocktail. It was only prohibition wiping away that
Re:The ever-present refrain "Accept Less!" (Score:5, Insightful)
The Greek Philosopher Zeno of Citium reasoned that if happiness is having everything you want, the surest path to it is wanting less.
"More" shouldn't be a sacred cow you worship. That ends badly.
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The problem with exporting more gas is that America has neither the liquefying capacity nor enough LNG tankers.
Europe also needs to build more capacity to receive LNG.
Europe also needs to exploit its own shale gas. This can happen much faster than building LNG terminals. Many EU countries have plenty of shale gas in the ground, especially Poland.
Shale gas by country [wikipedia.org]
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The problem with exporting more gas is that America has neither the liquefying capacity nor enough LNG tankers.
You don't even know enough about the topic to know that the tankers aren't based in the US, and our exports don't rely on our country having tankers. Neither does your country. Just shut up about shit you don't understand, jeeze.
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Funny...most of my home's energy use comes from electricity to run the AC for the 7-8 months it is hot and humid.
My AC clicked on middle of last month....on and off a bit, but its pretty much about to stay on soon through about late Oct next year.
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First off, I live in a river bottom that runs through a desert
I turned off the heat 5 years ago, although I still use natural gas for oven (rarely used) and clothes dryer (used a lot)
Aside from wearing warm clothes indoors (during a few cold spells over the winter), and buying a (used) down comforter, the impact on my life has been low
I run a swamp (evaporative) cooler through the summer months after seeing my electrical bill reach new heights when running air conditioning
The only real pain was when humidit
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If the price is lowered enough, and there is demand elsewhere and the capacity to fill it, eventually some of it will be exported. Obviously it's not one-to-one.
But this really isn't the point. 284 GJ/year isn't some magical figure. It's what an average person can have a reasonable standard of living with appropriate technology under ideal circumstances. If you're a farmer in Wyoming, obviously you're going to need more energy than an office worker who lives in Rome and walks to work.
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Where you live has a lot to do with it too. What climate zone does that 75 gigajoules apply to?
That's 20,833 kw-hr, or 57 kw-hr a day. Last month I used 51 kw-he per day, and the house is all electric, so it's a complete measurement of that use. I didn't need the fill up the car last month, so that wasn't much.
At the moment my heat pump is running to fend off a mid-April snowstorm.