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Robotics Technology

Lawmakers Express 'Extreme Concern' Over Border Robot Dog Plan (axios.com) 134

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
A research and development arm of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security announced last month it has been working with the Philadelphia-based company Ghost Robotics to develop a robot dog for the border. Now a small group of Latino U.S. House members recently expressed "extreme concern" about the plan. From a report: A letter obtained by Axios Latino shows that U.S. Reps. Veronica Escobar (D-Texas), Adriano Espaillat (D-NY) and Nanette Diaz Barragan (D-CA) are seeking a meeting with U.S. Customs and Border Protection about the robots. In the letter, the House members write that the term "robot dogs" is a "disingenuous moniker that attempts to soft-pitch the use of this technology."

"It downplays the threat the robots pose to migrants arriving at our southern border and the part they play in a long history of surveillance and privacy violations in our border communities." The letter also said they are concerned that the robot dogs will inevitably result in armed patrols and that they could critically injure, or even kill, migrants or American citizens. Robots used in combination with drones, facial recognition technology and license plate readers, pose civil liberties risks, the letter said.
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Lawmakers Express 'Extreme Concern' Over Border Robot Dog Plan More

Lawmakers Express 'Extreme Concern' Over Border Robot Dog Plan

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  • I think this is another click-bait news story to drum up outrage and make our porous southern border worse. Here's an idea, we have laws so enforce them!

    • Seriously. No one talks about the harm these immigrants do to the United States. Violating its sovereignty for one⦠consuming resources, and the numerous documented gangs and such. It is a real problem. But, one the military should be charged with fixing. Any other country, it is the military that secures the border. Even our military in some cases. We have practice doing it. We are pretty good at it now.

      • Even if they did no harm, they're still breaking the laws. Otherwise good people crossing the border illegally still need to be deported. Unless someone changes the laws.

        • Re: Robot Dogs? Naw (Score:4, Informative)

          by tragedy ( 27079 ) on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @04:32PM (#62316543)

          Crossing the border "illegally" has actually been legal for a while for refugees, etc. The idea is that you cross, plead your case, then a determination is made. For non-refugees, for most civilized countries not at war with their neighbors it's typically been more of a civil offense. Right-wing politicians keep pushing for it to be criminalized more and more precisely so they can turn around and say: "These people crossing our border are all criminals!". Overall, it seems like illegal crossings would not be such a problem if right-wing US politicians didn't keep on restricting legal immigration so much.

          It's all especially jarring when you consider that the previous President was an immigration hardliner while simultaneously married to an apparent illegal immigrant and while operating a number of businesses that employed illegal immigrants and, in some cases, were apparently trafficking them into the countries (such as his modelling agency).

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Moryath ( 553296 )
            You provided facts to the KKK shits. Sadly they won't listen - they never do.

          • The law also makes it illegal to hire these workers, and yet enforcement has never been serious in that regard. A government can't enforce all laws equally, and in this case the root of the problem is being ignored except sporadically. If there was no demand for these workers then they wouldn't be showing up (except for the refugees). But there's little appetite to arrest rich farmers, political donors to both parties, etc. Even Trump is known to have hired undocumented workers. If it is really a nationa

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by tragedy ( 27079 )

              That seems fairly reasonable except where you say: "Even Trump is known to have hired undocumented workers." It's that "even" that I object to, as if it's somehow inconsistent with his character or surprisingly against his nature.

            • Obviously employers who permit foreign scofflaws to work here, often with stolen credentials, should be punished. It WOULD solve much of the trouble the United States has with its own border enforcement.

              But in the end, illegal immigrants (whether they be border crossers or asylum-court-date-shirkers) must also be deported.

          • Wrong. They're given court dates. If they miss the court dates, boom, they're breaking the law. And that's only if they are claiming asylum.

            The vast majority of those from Central America claiming asylum at the border miss their court dates.

          • First off, politicians telling law enforcement not to enforce the laws is not the same as making something legal. The idea that people should be able to get away with spitting in out faces by ignoring out laws and crossing the border illegally is absurd. There are rules, procedures and international conventions for refugees and none of them allow for applying for refugee status after illegally crossing a border. There are consulates and embassies all along the route people take to our Southern border whe

      • In times like these I look to the words of great leaders. Let's see what Ronald Reagan's thought of the immigration issue.

        Uh oh...

        "I believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots and lived here, even though sometime back they may have entered illegally,"

        https://www.npr.org/templates/... [npr.org]

      • They also pay taxes, Seriously. Overall most are a positive benefit to the economy, especially the older style of migrant worker who is only in the US part of the year. The gang problem is relatively tiny but blown out of proportion for political purposes. Politicians put up with it because the economy make use of these workers, and many of those who are calling for tighter borders are also hiring undocumented workers at the same time. But so much effort is spent on the waves of refugees, which are not

        • >"They also pay taxes, Seriously."

          Illegal aliens? Because that is the reason for border enforcement. If they are working under the table (which theoretically is the only way they CAN work), they are paying no income taxes, state or federal and the employer is paying no payroll taxes. They probably can't legally own a registered car or home or property, so no personal property taxes there. So maybe some state sales taxes. Now balance that against the resources expended, and I really doubt it is a net

          • They aren't paying income tax sometimes, but they are paying sales tax, you can't avoid that. Sometimes even taxes are withheld for income tax anyway, especially if hired by a small business since it would be a standard thing for payroll services.

            • Sales taxes are a drop in the bucket compared to personal property and income taxes. Some states don't even have hardly any sales tax at all.

              In theory, at least, an illegal alien cannot work in the USA. Employers are required, by law, to verify each employee is legally allowed to work (I9). This is certainly enforced by the vast majority of employers (all mine did) and that is how income and payroll taxes are paid. An employer knowingly hiring an illegal alien and actually collecting and submitting taxe

              • Note however, most will not have "personal property" as they don't have cars or houses, and do not make enough money to actually pay for income taxes. They may be indirectly paying property tax if they rent.

                That said, there is a legal obligation to file income tax forms. And some do actually do this, especially if they hope to apply for permanent residence or citizenship. You can apply for social security numbers for this purpose, as odd as it sounds, but most who file likely just request a taxpayer ID nu

                • Some very good points. Thanks. I do find those IRS estimates to be way more than believable, though. But I have nothing to contradict it.

                  What a tangled web we weave.

      • No one is talking about this?

        You mean besides half of the politicians in the US, the biggest news channel in the US (Fox), who have been yelling about it very loudly, probably since before you were born?

        Yes, besides them, nobody has ever talked about it.

      • The West is not obliged to destroy itself in order to be the third world's lifeboat. We don't owe them a space in our economy to earn a living. We owe that to our own citizens, if anyone. If they come here and ruin our culture with their culture's corrupt habits and behaviors, all humanity will have lost the goose that lays the golden eggs. The world is better off having the West be functional and efficient so that they can reap the benefits of our scientific, technical and medical innovations. Those benefi
      • I'm terribly curious how "Violating its sovereignty" is doing harm to anything other than your white pride. Also, I don't know if you are just spouting things you heard Tucker Carlson say, or genuinely have no idea how economies and markets work, but due to their extremely low pay their consumption is far, far outstripped by their production, and the whole 'immigrant gang' problem is a product of a combination of that whole 'low pay' thing and the failed drug war, not the immigration as such. Aside from you

    • I think this is another click-bait news story to drum up outrage and make our porous southern border worse. Here's an idea, we have laws so enforce them!

      Uh, let's not delude ourselves as to the "outrage" here.

      They're worried this border enforcement device, might actually fucking work.

    • We also have serious laws and misdemeanors and everything in between. Much of politics is about deciding which laws are super important and must be enforced and which are not. Right now, one faction thinks border control is of the utmost importance beyond everything else. However, border patrol does not solve the problem. It is mostly a visual solution, it makes it look like something is being done.

      In my entire life, the core problem is not with the migrants, but with the employers. This includes conser

  • Border security is important, and needs to be managed and enforced. And while there is a problem of people breaking the law and crossing the border without the correct documents and some of them may have bad intentions as well. We need to keep in mind that these are people, who have their set of problems and wants and fears, and often the case the bad guys are the ones who are the biggest victims where they are being pushed or forced to do the crimes.

    Too much electronics or AI on the border, separates the

    • Bullshit. There are a million Ukrainians who would love to fuck over our immigration laws too. If we need a better system, then the law should allow for it if that is what we, the American electorate decide there should be. It is not the right of every southern migrant to say fuck off to our laws.
    • we cant build a wall, we cant use tech, we lie about agents using whips...

      can someone tell me what we can do to protect our borders while we are trying to protect other countries borders??

      • Turn cancel culture against the bleeding hearts. Refuse to go to restaurants that have non-English speaking employees. Don't patronize businesses that hire these people instead of American workers. Refuse to shop places that allow immigrant randos to solicit work in the parking lot.

        If you think that is impractical, then maybe our immigration laws are out of step with our way of life and should be liberalized.

      • Well we tried two thing. I guess we are out of options.

        Perhaps things like funding the training and hiring a boarder patrol that is professional, ethical and effective.
        We can use technology, to monitor and track the border, just not have robots come and attack people.
        Working with border nations with information and ability to get a lot of good people in legally.
        Making sure our paperwork for legal entry is fair and just and not bogged down with unnecessary red tape.

        If we are faced with either do Imperfect,

      • Re:Law and order... But Remember humanity (Score:4, Insightful)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @06:23PM (#62316911) Homepage Journal

        Borders have two sides, and you can only control one. So first thing is to cooperate with whoever controls the other side of the border.

        Second thing is to stop screwing with South America and instead try to help it be a place where people want to stay.

        Thirdly, make sure there are legal routes for people to use.

  • We would not need robot dogs if we just fixed our immigration process. If it was easier to come to the US then we'd have fewer people going the illegal route. We are a nation of immigrants, which we seem to have forgotten.

    • >"We would not need robot dogs if we just fixed our immigration process. If it was easier to come to the US then we'd have fewer people going the illegal route."

      That is naive. Those with convictions or on watchlists or smuggling drugs, people, weapons, or whatever are not going to come in the legal way. There is no sense of even talking about "fixing" the immigration process if the border is not secure.

      And yes, we DO need to fix the immigration process too, but that has to occur after there is a actual

      • What? How is the Canadian border different?

        • >"What? How is the Canadian border different?"

          It shouldn't be. All the borders should be strong and enforced. The the major assault just so happens to be the southern border, so it does need more attention. Mostly because of the land path through-connection to tons of other countries and through Mexico, who obviously/apparently isn't controlling THEIR borders that well.

          • So we have a border at Canada but not at Mexico? Because Mexico doesn't enforce its own borders? Ok, sure thing.

            If we make it easier for the vast majority to come legally then its easier to focus on the fewer that come illegally. We need to fix immigration - walls and robots are not the solution. If we are overwhelmed then it is a problem of our own doing and a problem we can solve.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dryeo ( 100693 )

          It's much the same except Americans don't care about people going to Canada.

          • You can walk right out of the US and into Mexico, no one stopping you. It is getting back into the US where someone will stop you.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by dryeo ( 100693 )

              They usually take a taxi to the Canadian border. The point is that generally the movement is north, not south, we get a lot of illegal Americans and others traveling through America to get to Canada.

              • Not really.

                https://www.wilsoncenter.org/a... [wilsoncenter.org]

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by dryeo ( 100693 )

                  I don"t see anything that conflicts with what I said in that document and this supports it,

                  Again, Canada is not immune from irregular entry. Relatively recent events in the United States led to a surge in irregular border crossings into Canada. After President Trump announced in 2017 his intention to end Temporary Protected Status for unauthorized immigrants from several countries, there was a spike in such crossings, especially by Haitians, who sought refugee status after entering Canada.[13]

                  It varies over

                  • Most immigrants from south of the US do not make it to Canada. Canada has 1/3 of the issues of the US and the border is not (yet) such a hot button issue in Canada.

                    "In general, Canada appears to have a much more liberal immigration policy than the United States. In 2019, with 11 percent of the United States’ population, Canada receives 32 percent of the number of legal immigrants that of the United States receives.[8] However, the United States, unlike Canada, has an estimated 12 million unauthorized

  • I mean, this is Slashdot for crying out loud. We're not even going to summarize what these "robot dogs" do or consist of?

    If they simply walk around the perimeter with a wifi camera on their head, I don't see the big deal -- other than them probably costing US taxpayers an exorbitant price tag? It depends a lot on what these are about.

  • Back in the 80's,the US had several million illegals, mostly from Central America. After much handwringing over those who had been in the US for a long time, the US decided on amnesty. I remember the discussions clearly. On one side were the conservatives, who said: do this, and the next wave of illegals will be even bigger, hoping for the next amnesty. On the other side, the liberals who said: we promise, we promise, give us this amnesty, and we will enforce immigration law to prevent another wave.

    Guess

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tragedy ( 27079 )

      Back in the 80's,the US had several million illegals, mostly from Central America. After much handwringing over those who had been in the US for a long time, the US decided on amnesty. I remember the discussions clearly. On one side were the conservatives, who said: do this, and the next wave of illegals will be even bigger, hoping for the next amnesty. On the other side, the liberals who said: we promise, we promise, give us this amnesty, and we will enforce immigration law to prevent another wave.

      Ah yes, the liberal-dominated 80's, with a Republican President and Republican control of the Senate for nearly the entire decade. Where a Republican President, a split Republican/Democrat house, and a Republican controlled senate - terrible liberals all - passed a law giving amnesty to about 3 million illegal immigrants. You can remember the discussions any way you want, the simple fact is that the Republicans are the ones who passed it into law.

      • >"You can remember the discussions any way you want, the simple fact is that the Republicans are the ones who passed it into law."

        They both passed the law. It really doesn't matter who did it either. His point was valid. I don't care who was to blame, I think they all were. It makes no sense to offer amnesty and then turn around and NOT secure the border, and NOT enforce the laws, we just end up in the same problem again- tons of illegal immigration and a lot of smuggling, human trafficking, etc.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tragedy ( 27079 )

          With a clear path for legal immigration, there would not be so much illegal immigration and it should be a lot easier to deal with the vastly reduced number of crossings.

        • >"You can remember the discussions any way you want, the simple fact is that the Republicans are the ones who passed it into law."

          They both passed the law. It really doesn't matter who did it either. His point was valid. I don't care who was to blame, I think they all were. It makes no sense to offer amnesty and then turn around and NOT secure the border, and NOT enforce the laws, we just end up in the same problem again- tons of illegal immigration and a lot of smuggling, human trafficking, etc.

          You know what, forty something years of hearing how bad illegal immigration is, and our leaders haven't done anything about it. I'm starting to think it's not as bad as it's chalked to be. Almost like it's far more of a political weapon than an actual problem to society. Maybe the numbers of illegal immigrants is so high because they keep counting them. Have you ever seen how they're counted, how do you tell them apart? I think the count is rigged, there aren't that many here, it's just a scare tactic.

    • Both sides (but more GOP) wrecked the migratory worker system and made it criminalized in the usual modern American authoritarian solution to just about everything. The result is migratory workers had a hard time moving and it was easier to stay than to sneak back and forth for what were jobs Americans didn't do for a century. If you wanted higher wages to stop the problem at the source then you'd force all the employers to only higher legal Americans instead of looking the other way ever since hiring leg

    • The US now has somewhere over 20 million of them. That's a hard problem, but the right answer remains: hunt them down and deport them.

      How is it a problem? Our population only grows by like 2 million a year, and that's decelerating.
      You're suggesting removing 20 million people from our economy, why, to solve what problem?

      Seriously, what are you trying to fix removing 20 million people? What did they do to you?

  • C students as politicians (Score:4, Informative)

    by kackle ( 910159 ) on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @03:43PM (#62316337)

    "It downplays the threat the robots pose to migrants arriving at our southern border and the part they play in a long history of surveillance and privacy violations in our border communities."

    What? What threat? And, we're not allowed to even look at people breaking the law now?

    • You don't have privacy crossing a border. You are required to tell the authorities who you are and they have the right to do a criminal or medical check on you.

      What do people think happened at Ellis Island? The place existed to document who is coming in, do a medical check, look out for signs of criminal activity (ex. prison tats are not exactly a new thing), etc.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Drones have lead to an increase in civilian casualties. In fact every time we find ways to be more remote from the weapons we deploy, more innocent people get hurt.

      We have seen the police looking at adding weapons to robot dogs. Anyone paying attention can see where this is going if we don't get ahead of it.

      • Armed military drones, yeah. Are we talking about armed military drones? No, we are not. So, why bring it up?
    • They're going to want them to use those weapons. As the economy gets worse and there's more pressure to blame it immigrants you might even come to agree with that.

      You want those illegal immigrants to stop coming over the border? I can tell you how but you're not going to like it. Your vote blue. And you vote in your primary for the kind of candidates that'll stop sending the CIA to overthrow South American governments every time one of them tries to raise the wages of banana pickers.

      Oh and you need

  • Unarmed patrol robots are growing common for ordinary patrol. The fact a bot has legs instead of wheels doesn't change the equation much. Is the fear the legs will inadvertently kick or trip somebody? If so, what about tread wheels instead, to handle uneven terrain?

    I agree that (well trained) human patrols would be better, but humans are too expensive such that robo-guards are probably inevitable. One person can monitor 20 odd bots.

  • I assume we can order it to stop following us, or destroy itself, according to Asimov's Laws of Robotics, created so humanity would be comfortable with them and not be scared of them, as servants of robotic or human overlords.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tragedy ( 27079 )

      That second law was always a bit of a problem. I mean, the three laws were gross simplifications in the first place. They were quite clever, but clearly had the problem of access control. The second law as stated would have allowed any bored teenager to find a worksite where robots were assembling a building or something and, as long as no human would be harmed in the process, ordered the robots to destroy themselves and the worksite costing millions of dollars. Although, now that I think about it, damage t

  • Joe can order a large army of RoboTrumps to be border monitoring guards. He'd then get both Democrat voters and Trump voters. Win-Win!

  • Mission/Scope creep is a concern... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @04:18PM (#62316473)

    However, I don't have a big issue with the current plan as stated. From TFA:

    "The agency said the robots are not designed or being tested to engage with migrants."

    and

    "Ghost Robotics CEO Jiren Parikh told Axios robots in development have special sensors and can carry equipment to identify drugs, nuclear materials and chemical weapons."

    • I mean how do they tell the difference between a drug dealer and a migrant? Also are you really honestly going to believe that there are people from South America hauling nuclear material across the border? That's the defense industry equivalent of think of the children. Seriously man, I know you're not that naive.

      Of course they're going to be used against migrants and eventually if things continue they'll be given first non-lethal rounds and then lethal ones. The problem is the people who want to do st
      • With sensors designed to detect drugs? You know, like those words right in front of you say.

        And before you go around calling other people naïve, do you seriously believe only people from South America are crossing our Southern border? Because they keep finding people from all over the damn world coming across. Including Russians of military age, if that's the sort of thing you care about.

        A better criticism would be pointing out that the plan appears to be to use these robots for exactly nothing

  • CBP has a budget of around $18 billion and 65,000 employees. Just give them a few billion more dollars and thousands of extras guys and they'll lick this problem this time for sure!

    Also rates of illegal immigration has been dropping year over year since a peak in the mid aughts.

    Personally I have no issue with immigrants, if they want to work here we should let them, unemployment right now is at 4% which is a little under the natural rate. Let's just do away with the whole "illegal" concept and make sure a

    • 'rates of illegal immigration has been dropping year over year since a peak in the mid aughts'

      That was true, but numbers have now risen again, a lot.

      • It has increased , but depends what you mean by a lot.

        In 2019 before covid the immigrant population (all immigrants legal and illegal) was 45.8 million, in Nov 2021 it was estimated at 46.2 million, not even 1% increase.

    • Illegal aliens do it because they can get away with it. Stop them from coming in AND punish those who knowingly hire, aid or abed those who still make it through.

      It doesn't matter how likely they are to commit crimes, they refused to follow our rules on entry. If they don't respect us enough to ask for permission before barging in, we shouldn't expect them to respect anything else about us.

      You wouldn't stand for it if some stranger broke into your house and started sleeping on your couch. You shoul

      • It's only "illegal" because we want it that way. Just get rid of the entire concept is what I am saying then none of those issues you are complaining about would exist. Everyone is registered, everyone pays taxes. If there isn't work for them here they won't come or certainly won't stay.

        Just like personal finances have little correlation with national economies, personal property rights have little to do with national immigration policy. It's just appeal to emotion.

    • ... Dystopian Robot Dogs

      Don't know that one. I was thinking of the dog-like assassins in Fahrenheit 452. It would be easy for the robots to go from searching illegals to murdering them. Then, murdering people who think too much, just like Bradbury's short novel, will be easy.

  • "...they could critically injure, or even kill, migrants..."
    Of course, there's always the option to NOT illegally try to cross into a foreign country if it's dangerous?

    "...or American citizens.."
    Yes, I'm sure there are THOUSANDS of American citizens sneaking across the border in the dark what, for fun?

    "Honey, should we go skiing in Aspen this year?"
    "No darling, I was hoping we'd drive to Mexico, pay a coyote several thousand dollars to rape me repeatedly, treat us like prisoners, possibly leave us in a truc

  • If America wanted to stop illegal immigration they could simply prosecute and jail people who hire illegal immigrants. It would solve the problem over night. But it will never happen because the immigrants provide cheap labour. The laws are instead meant to keep the immigrants quiet, so they can't complain about poor working conditions and other exploitation. The current laws favour the rich and powerful in the USA. It's not just Trump, its every industrial farm in California, its even the upper middle
    • A lot of laws are being ignored. Helping someone illegally cross into or remain in the US is a felony that's supposed to result in a 5-year prison term, yet there are NGOs and entire city governments doing just that with impunity. Some of the NGOs are even being paid by the Federal government to quarter and transport illegal aliens all over the nation.
  • What robots have, "a long history of surveillance and privacy violations in our border communities"? How are they supposed to be posing a threat to illegal border crossers?

    And why bother at all? I bet immediate deportations or a physical barrier of some sort would work far better than robot dogs sniffing for drugs.

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