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Portables (Apple) Hardware

The New MacBook Pro Seems To Have an HDMI 2.0 Port, Not 2.1 (arstechnica.com) 107

Posted by BeauHD from the better-than-nothing dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: The newly announced 14-inch and 16-inch MacBook Pro models have HDMI ports, but they have a limitation that could be frustrating for many users over the long term, according to Apple's specs page for both machines and as noted by Paul Haddad on Twitter. The page says the HDMI port has "support for one display with up to 4K resolution at 60 Hz." That means users with 4K displays at 120 Hz (or less likely, 8K displays at 60 Hz) won't be able to tap the full capability of those displays through this port. It implies limited throughput associated with an HDMI 2.0 port instead of the most recent HDMI 2.1 standard, though there are other possible explanations for the limitation besides the port itself, and we don't yet know which best describes the situation.
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The New MacBook Pro Seems To Have an HDMI 2.0 Port, Not 2.1 More

The New MacBook Pro Seems To Have an HDMI 2.0 Port, Not 2.1

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  • What a tragedy (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @08:28PM (#61908387) Homepage Journal

    A video format that approximately no one uses (and that almost exactly no one will ever truly need) is unsupported because Apple didn't want to waste money on hardware that nobody will ever use. What a tragedy. :-D

    I am disappointed that they didn't include at least one USB-A port, because it means continuing to carry around an adapter constantly, but at least they put back the most critical stuff — MagSafe (albeit in an irritatingly incompatible way that makes adapters for old power supplies impractical), HDMI, and SD.

    But HDMI 2.1? The 99% case is using HDMI 1.0 to hook up to a hotel TV set. If you're using some fancy high-end display with 8K, it's probably in your house, and having a Thunderbolt adapter permanently connected to it is no big deal. Even HDMI 2.0 is optional, IMO, much less 2.1.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by MobyDisk ( 75490 )

      Let me add that the video chip is unlikely to be able to run much at 4k 120Hz anyway. An RTX 3090 running Read Dead Redemption 2 on Ultra settings at 4k - gets 55FPS. Maybe there are streaming movies that could achieve 4k 120Hz? Or maybe some external blu-ray content?

      • Bear in mind that notebookcheck are currently estimating that itâ(TM)s roughly as fast as a desktop 2080, or the PS5â(TM)s GPU. https://www.notebookcheck.net/... [notebookcheck.net]

        The PS5 is capable of running a decent number of games at 4k/120. But then, if you want to do that, Iâ(TM)m sure the built in not-quite 4k/120Hz screen, or something connected to thunderbolt will work just fine.

        • Bear in mind that notebookcheck are currently estimating that itâ(TM)s roughly as fast as a desktop 2080, or the PS5â(TM)s GPU. https://www.notebookcheck.net/ [notebookcheck.net]... [notebookcheck.net]

          Ya... a not-top-of-the-line desktop card from 2018 that didn't play 4K/120Hz games for shit. The 2080 Ti wasn't even very good at that. 4K/60Hz? Barely.

          The PS5 is capable of running a decent number of games at 4k/120Hz.

          Not really. The Xbox and PS5 both use dynamic resolution to make the drop from 4K resolution seamless, but neither of them really have the horsepower to play high-graphical-quality games at 4K/120Hz. Shit like counterstrike and fortnite? definitely.

          None of this is a knock against the GPU in the M1 Max. It's fucking stellar for an IGP.
          Today's laptop discre

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        Let me add that the video chip is unlikely to be able to run much at 4k 120Hz anyway. An RTX 3090 running Read Dead Redemption 2 on Ultra settings at 4k - gets 55FPS. Maybe there are streaming movies that could achieve 4k 120Hz? Or maybe some external blu-ray content?

        Nope. HDMI 2.1 is generally aimed towards gamers only - 4k120 is primarily for gaming.

        Blu-Ray is up to 1080p60, or 2160p60 (4k60), but generally available media uses 4k24 as 24fps is the movie frame rate. HDMI 2.0 is more than sufficient for 4k

        • Ang Lee has made two films at 4K/120p: Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk and Gemini Man. Currently there is no way to see them at their full resolution and frame rate at home. Both are available in 4K/60p on 4K Ultra HD Blu-Ray.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by darkain ( 749283 )

        Gaming is not the only reason to have a high refresh rate display. Even just doing normal desktop tasks, having the lower latency input feels so much freaggin nicer, that going back to 60Hz panels now feels like a slideshow just moving the mouse cursor around.

        But when it DOES come to gaming, not every game is the latest and greatest AAA game that maxes out the GPU compute capabilities. On my 4k/120 panel, my AMD RX480 would have been able to drive some of the games I play at that res/refresh, *IF* it had HD

    • Too bad HDMI couldn't gracefully degrade its frame rate, so if you were trying to get work done on it but were hooking up to a 4k/8k screen and were willing to put up with slower refresh (and maybe run-length-encoded digital transmission to the display), it would at least work for applications if not video.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        Too bad HDMI couldn't gracefully degrade its frame rate, so if you were trying to get work done on it but were hooking up to a 4k/8k screen and were willing to put up with slower refresh (and maybe run-length-encoded digital transmission to the display), it would at least work for applications if not video.

        I assume that's sarcasm. I've never seen an HDMI display that doesn't support multiple resolutions and refresh rates all the way down to 720p/30 (and often /25 and /24).

    • Re:What a tragedy (Score:5, Informative)

      by AbRASiON ( 589899 ) * on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @08:58PM (#61908481) Journal

      Rather than voting you down, I'll comment.

      HDMI 2.1 as a specification has been out, I believe over 18 months.
      Apple have wisely adopted brand new and fantastic, TB4 spec.
      They've got top of the line tech in these laptops and they would, presumably last, based on how long current ones last, a long, long time. I'd be surprised if they weren't still a fantastic option for an end user, in 7 or maybe even 10 years time.

      The PS5 and Xbox Series X, both released this time last year have HDMI 2.1.

      HDMI 2.1 also offers, if I recall, some kind of 'sync' specification which allows for displays to match the frame rate of movies / games etc.

      This isn't a show stopper for me, since I won't be buying one regardless, but for some this is certainly a frustration on such an expensive, brand new and high tech device. HDMI 2.1 solves a lot of big issues .

      • This isn't a show stopper for me, since I won't be buying one regardless, but for some this is certainly a frustration on such an expensive, brand new and high tech device. HDMI 2.1 solves a lot of big issues .

        Disclaimer: I *did* buy one (Ships end of Nov)

        My guess is this is standard Apple horseshit- to make the solution they prefer seem better. Don't offer HDMI 2.1, because real "Content Producers" use DisplayPort. The HDMI port is just there for hooking up to your inferior display device.

        • My guess is this is standard Apple horseshit- to make the solution they prefer seem better. Don't offer HDMI 2.1, because real "Content Producers" use DisplayPort. The HDMI port is just there for hooking up to your inferior display device.

          If we are going to play that game then real "Content Producers" use external GPUs. Or is it real gamers? Or is it they use desktops, not laptops? Whatever, doesn't matter, because it's horseshit, right?

          Even if we could find the person or persons that had to make this decision to ask why this decision was made there's no knowing if they were being honest. Apple has a history of leading on adopting new standards and dropping old ones. This may be the first time ever, or at least the first time in a lon

          • HDMI ports on laptops make a lot of sense.
            They're the universal common denominator in digital video, these days.

            But why HDMI 2.0, instead of HDMI 2.1 on my $6100 laptop?
            Saving 15 cents on the framer just seems... hard to swallow for me.
            The only thing that makes sense to me is they want DP to be the superior option (which technically, it still is, however with HDMI 2.1, that technicality is meaningless to 99.9% of all people)

            Artificial limitations for the sake of competitive advantage aren't exactly u

        • Well, for once, I agree. Display port is marginally better, and royalty free.

          High end computer equipment migrated to DP long ago, but for whatever reason, HDMI is still prevalent in other areas, especially in TVs and lower end monitors (first to market? Better hdcp support?).

          That's why recent GPUs have three DP and only one "legacy" HDMI, in case you need it.

          When you're on the move and have to plug in to a random monitor elsewhere, the probability that it will be hdmi is dramatically higher than dp. Even at

          • HDMI is still prevalent in other areas, especially in TVs and lower end monitors (first to market? Better hdcp support?).

            For TVs, I imagine, its a matter of momentum, and momentum is mostly maintained (for TVs, anyway) due to ARC and CEC.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Yep, HDMI 2.1 supports FreeSync which allows the refresh rate to change dynamically frame-to-frame, within certain limits. So for example a game where the frame rate hovers around 60 FPS can adjust it down to say 55 FPS when a frame takes a little longer to render, and avoid screen tearing or juddering.

        It is also very handy for emulation, because a lot of machines didn't run at exactly 60Hz. In fact many arcade systems ran at very odd rates, e.g. PacMan is 57.5Hz. With FreeSync you don't need to mess around

    • Re:What a tragedy (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Kisai ( 213879 ) on Tuesday October 19, 2021 @09:24PM (#61908549)

      They probably didn't want to cannibalize another TB port for it.

      TB will permit DP/HDMI @ 8K or whatever, even daisy chaining multiple monitors over DP. If you are doing production stuff, you are supposed to be using DP.

      The HDMI port is entirely for connecting to a TV which at best 4K@120 HDMI 2.1 might be a hard-to-find for now.

      • They probably didn't want to cannibalize another TB port for it.

        I was thinking the same.

        There's only so many PCIe lanes coming out of the CPU and each TB4 port likely takes one. How many PCIe lanes come out of a laptop CPU these days? Six? One for each TB port uses three. One for the SSD, with maybe some other things hanging off of it. One for the internal display, and maybe some other things hanging off that too. Then you have a lane for what is essentially a USB-C dock that has been internalized, the HDMI, SDXC, and the MagSafe/USB-PD power negotiation. Had the

        • A TB4 port is 4 PCIe and 8 DP lanes per slot. So youâ(TM)re talking 12 PCIe lanes and 24 DP lanes.

          The HDMI 2.0 lane is 18Gbps, a HDMI 2.1 would be 48 Gbps. Any display that supports HDMI2.1 should support DP as HDMI is pretty much a dead standard at this point.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by dgatwood ( 11270 )

            A TB4 port is 4 PCIe and 8 DP lanes per slot. So youâ(TM)re talking 12 PCIe lanes and 24 DP lanes.

            The HDMI 2.0 lane is 18Gbps, a HDMI 2.1 would be 48 Gbps. Any display that supports HDMI2.1 should support DP as HDMI is pretty much a dead standard at this point.

            When I see a single commercially available TV set (not computer monitor) with DisplayPort, I'll believe that. Even LG's 8K TVs are HDMI-only. DisplayPort is pretty much a dead-end standard at this point, used exclusively for computers in an era when fewer and fewer people use actual computers.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      MODERATORS: Currently dgatwood's post is Score 1: Flamebait. Why is this flamebait? It is a completely valid technical point that spawned an excellent discussion on the merits and applications of 4k120hz, and what content is available for that, and who uses it -- with zero flame posts. Not a single post under this was moderated down. This is 100% the wrong moderation.

      • MODERATORS: Currently dgatwood's post is Score 1: Flamebait. Why is this flamebait? It is a completely valid technical point that spawned an excellent discussion on the merits and applications of 4k120hz, and what content is available for that, and who uses it -- with zero flame posts. Not a single post under this was moderated down. This is 100% the wrong moderation.

        Welcome to my world.

    • "The 99% case is using HDMI 1.0 to hook up to a hotel TV set. "

      I would say for demographic that is buying Macbook Pro models it's hooking up to a display in a conference room with hardwired HDMI, which is an even *more* restrictive environment. There's no possibility of bring your own cable, and it would have to be 50 feet long if you did.

      My current laptop is the first I've ever had *without* a DE-15 VGA connector. Until very recently you could not depend on getting a digital connector, and half the time it

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        "The 99% case is using HDMI 1.0 to hook up to a hotel TV set. "

        I would say for demographic that is buying Macbook Pro models it's hooking up to a display in a conference room with hardwired HDMI, which is an even *more* restrictive environment. There's no possibility of bring your own cable, and it would have to be 50 feet long if you did.

        There are still conference rooms that don't have AirPlay or Chromecast? :-)

        I mean yes, ostensibly, but realistically, that's the sort of situation where you'd expect the company to have dongles for every laptop model that they provide to their employees, so it's likely a minor nuisance most of the time.

        Hotels, by contrast, are unlikely to have adapters, so unless you bring them yourself, you're screwed. And unlike HDMI cables, which the hotel might actually have (and which you can buy at Target or Walmart

    • TV sets that support 4K/120p over HDMI 2.1 have been on the market for a couple of years now. The new generation of gaming consoles support the standard, as do the current generation of video cards for PCs. Those TVs don't have a DisplayPort, so HDMI 2.1 is the only way to get that resolution and refresh rate. I'd rank that as a fail on Apple's part.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Askmum ( 1038780 )

      A video format that approximately no one uses (and that almost exactly no one will ever truly need)

      "640K is more memory than anyone will ever need on a computer".

      (yes, yes, I know the quote is not a quote)

  • Anyways, if you need that other video stuff, get a machine for that. I want a laptop, not a desktop. Battery power is key.
    • Then why the fuck bother with the HDMI port in the first place, I can see justification for leaving it out as you can just use a dongle, But putting it in and then using an old spec version is just dumb.
      • Because the MacBook Pros comes with 3 Thunderbolt ports which each can support 4K at 120Hz. The HDMI port is just extra.
        • again that makes no sense. Why the fuck put a 2.0 port in. either leave it out entirely or make it 2.1. similarly would you think it smart to make 1 or 2 of the thunderbolt ports v3 and the others 4 as afterall you are unlikely to actually need to use them all as 4 right?
          • You ever work in an office environment? If you want to connect to a projector or screen in a conference room you better have somewhere to plug in an HDMI cable. Not needing a dongle is a clear step forward. >99% of users don't care if their PowerPoint is "only" presenting at 4k/60.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by dfghjk ( 711126 )

              "Not needing a dongle is a clear step forward. "

              Is it? You can connect to these with a Thunderbolt port and no dongle, you just need to carry a proper cable, like others with HDMI also need.

              "You ever work in an office environment?"

            • I get that, BUT WHY THE FUCK 2.0, 2.1 is the same size, has the same compatibility PLUS it works with the higher res and refresh rates.
              • Did you ask Lenovo [lenovo.com], Dell [dell.com], HP [hp.com] that same question?

                • Did you ask Lenovo [lenovo.com], Dell [dell.com], HP [hp.com] that same question?

                  And for the same reasons of Product Development and Logistics that I mentioned above.

                  In fact, are there actually any currently shipping (or preparing to ship ;-) ) laptops that have a native HDMI 2.1 Port?

              • As others have commented it likely has to do with the number of available lanes to the CPU. Not the form factor of the plug. They couldn't fully support HDMI 2.1 without taking bandwidth from somewhere else.

                • As others have commented it likely has to do with the number of available lanes to the CPU. Not the form factor of the plug. They couldn't fully support HDMI 2.1 without taking bandwidth from somewhere else.

                  Really? You were in the M1's Design Team? You know what is inside their Custom Display Controller?

                  • As others have commented it likely has to do with the number of available lanes to the CPU. Not the form factor of the plug. They couldn't fully support HDMI 2.1 without taking bandwidth from somewhere else.

                    Really? You were in the M1's Design Team? You know what is inside their Custom Display Controller?

                    Oops! Misread Parent!

                    Please disregard the snark!!!

          • Are you saying you do not understand why today's computers have USB Type A 2.0 ports instead of all USB 4 type C ports?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by sconeu ( 64226 )

              Actually, yes. I understand the need for type A, but they should be USB 3.0 Type A.

            • absolutely, why the fuck would you put a Type A 2.0 port in instead of Type A 3.0. doing so would make absolutely no fucking sense as 3 is backward compatible.
            • I would be unbelievably pissed if I bought a new machine and it came with USB Type A 2.0 instead of 3.1. It is not a valid comparison to compare to Type C as they are an incompatible different socket.

          • again that makes no sense. Why the fuck put a 2.0 port in. either leave it out entirely or make it 2.1. similarly would you think it smart to make 1 or 2 of the thunderbolt ports v3 and the others 4 as afterall you are unlikely to actually need to use them all as 4 right?

            It has been said that HDMI 2.1 spec was only ratified 18 months ago, right?

            Just how long do you think it takes for something like that to make it through the MacBook Pro's R&D cycle, then a particular component chosen, qualified, sourced (with generally an alternate component going through the same qualification and sourcing process)?

            Apple isn't some sweatshop, third-world electronics manufacturer, willing to slap anything with a still-preliminary Datasheet into a product.

            Often, that means stepping back

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward

          The HDMI port is just extra.

          Which the Apple fanboys argued was pointless when Apple removed it but now it's a stroke of genius when they bring it back. Same goes for the SD-card slot, F keys, scissor keyboard, Magsafe, etc. Apple aren't pretending they know what the right things is but they don't care, they aren't going to waste any effort justifying their decisions because there's an army of fanboys that think whatever Apple does is the greatest thing ever and will bend over backwards to justify it and try to squash any criticism the

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Anonymous Coward

            It's honestly pretty hilarious the way Apple constantly does contradictory things and hails things as redundant or revolutionary only to backflip on them shortly after (and sometimes even backflip on them again!) yet their fanboys still act like they are infallible despite the fact that they don't listen to the fanboys.

            While the fanboys were gushing about the trashcan Mac Apple were listening to the critics and realizing they fucked up and responded.

            While the fanboys were gushing about dongles Apple was aga

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Uberbah ( 647458 )

            Which the Apple fanboys argued

            Are these "Apple fanboys" in the the room with you....right now?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 )

          Way to ignore the question and provide an answer that contains the very contradiction being questioned. You do /. proud.

          • How about this? It‘s the same reason why laptops have USB 2.0 ports when they have USB C and Thunderbolt ports or why desktop motherboards have PS/2 plugs: you are literally complaining that something port has an extra for older technology that you could ignore but could be helpful. Basically you were complaining to complain without thinking.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by vlad30 ( 44644 )
        Maybe chip supply? and it was designed months ago and 2.1 version wasn't up to scratch, or maybe licensing hasn't been settled, it is also possible the hardware is there but the software isn't ready. or some other bottleneck so they downgraded until it can be resolved. there is always a reason.

        • Maybe chip supply? and it was designed months ago and 2.1 version wasn't up to scratch, or maybe licensing hasn't been settled, it is also possible the hardware is there but the software isn't ready. or some other bottleneck so they downgraded until it can be resolved. there is always a reason.

          That's exactly what I said.

          People have absolutely no idea how product development, logistics, and manufacturing work, especially with large companies.

      • How many competing laptop models support HDMI 2.1? I'd really like to know. If all currently shipping non-Apple laptops have HDMI 2.1 ports then I guess that makes Apple look bad.

        One sticky point is defining the competition. I'd start with laptops that are currently shipping or will ship in the next 6 months or so. Then maybe compare by price range. Then by roughly similar size/weight/power. When shopping for laptops in the past I noticed that screen size and resolution make a big difference in price,

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      Screens are a real issue for some people. I tried to hook three independent screens to my cylinder Mac Pro and was not able to it. It should be possible if you connect through different USB C banks. It wasnâ(TM)t.

      The key here is that one can hook up this computer to the average screen without additional equipment. For specialty monitors, I assume that a USB C connector will always be superior.

      I will also remind people that the primary purpose of HDMI is not to maximize quality, it is to maximize t

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      What does the HDMI revision have to do with battery power?

      Connecting a MacBook to a USB-C monitor is an interesting use case, as it can charge and produce an image at the same time. Same with HDMI capable docks. The monitors that Apple sells and used to sell were 5k and 6k, which won't run at 60Hz over an HDMI 2.0 port.

  • They seem to be very mute on specs, but Thunderbolt 4 ports should be able to support those resolutions, and they seem to support 6K according to specs. Hence it would not be a video hardware limitation, but a port one.

    Any professional that needs more than three 6K + one 4K displays, will probably go with a desktop form factor. So that is not a big loss. (3xTB4+1xHDMI on the Max model).

    On the other hand it is a small ding on the record of otherwise very well spec'd machine.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dfghjk ( 711126 )

      "On the other hand it is a small ding on the record of otherwise very well spec'd machine."

      Who doesn't love the notched screen spec too!

  • So lets be clear what this argument is aboutâ¦. the hdmi port of a computer that can run either 2 or 3 6k/60Hz + 1* 4k/60hz display in addition to a retina display at 120Hz is stupid because it cant also do 120Hz⦠either apple is stupid or they did user research⦠I am going to guess the latter and further say that they interviewed their target user (me an actual video& graphics editor) and recognized that 120Hz is not at the top of our list but multiple 4k/60Hz displays a

  • Who cares about HDMI ? We needed VGA output to connect to those crappy old projectors at the office.
    We could have used a Ethernet port to be able to connect to the office network using any of the patch cables lying around the conference rooms - as the WiFi was bad & crowded to begin with then it has been "secured" to the point of being unusable.
    Rename-it as MacBook Showoff and give us our cheap Dell Latitude with all the ports ...

    • Your office isn't willing to splurge on some VGA-to-HDMI dongles to leave in your conference rooms, and can't (or won't) implement usable WiFi? I'd advise your company to allocate some of its IT budget to things other than $3000 laptops.

  • its an "Apple" addon.
    upgrade to HDMI 2.1 for $1000, and you can get a cloth to clean the HDMI plug for $18 USD

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by N1AK ( 864906 )
      Now that's true bravery!

      To be honest I'm not even sure why they bothered including the HDMI port. They've been leaving it off devices for years when they would have been more useful; if they can't even be bothered to add the current standard then just leave it off and people will practically thank them for the chance to buy a $40 official TB adaptor.

  • Reading other opinions, it really seems like the HDMI port is not intended to be the primary video port, with Display Port taking on that role. Instead, it is a compromise port for anyone wanting to use their Mac during a presentation, where HDMI is likely the most common connector available to the overhead projectors. If it is indeed directed towards projectors, then there is probably little need for 4K support.

    Since I know places that do provide dongles to deal with the Macs, I wonder how much bureaucracy

  • that like others are posting here, the HDMI port is really something added more for convenience. No more need for an annoying dongle adapter every time you need to plug your laptop into a projector, or put your video up on a large LCD TV panel for a presentation.

    Since it also brings back the SD card slot, we're finally at a point where the typical "road warrior" can take one of these someplace without having to worry about a bag full of dongle adapters. Maybe you'll still want one of those multi-port adapt

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