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Power Earth Government

Are Transcontinental, Submarine Supergrids the Future of Energy? (bloomberg.com) 222

Posted by EditorDavid from the long-lines dept.
Bloomberg Businessweek reports on "renewed interest in cables that can power consumers in one country with electricity generated hundreds, even thousands, of miles away in another" and possibly even transcontinental, submarine electricity superhighways: Coal, gas and even nuclear plants can be built close to the markets they serve, but the utility-scale solar and wind farms many believe essential to meet climate targets often can't. They need to be put wherever the wind and sun are strongest, which can be hundreds or thousands of miles from urban centers. Long cables can also connect peak afternoon solar power in one time zone to peak evening demand in another, reducing the price volatility caused by mismatches in supply and demand as well as the need for fossil-fueled back up capacity when the sun or wind fade. As countries phase out carbon to meet climate goals, they'll have to spend at least $14 trillion to strengthen grids by 2050, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. That's only a little shy of projected spending on new renewable generation capacity and it's increasingly clear that high- and ultra-high-voltage direct current lines will play a part in the transition.

The question is how international will they be...?
The article points out that in theory, Mongolia's Gobi desert "has potential to deliver 2.6 terawatts of wind and solar power — more than double the U.S.'s entire installed power generation capacity — to a group of Asian powerhouse economies that together produce well over a third of global carbon emissions..." The same goes for the U.S., where with the right infrastructure, New York could tap into sun- and wind-rich resources from the South and Midwest. An even more ambitious vision would access power from as far afield as Canada or Chile's Atacama Desert, which has the world's highest known levels of solar power potential per square meter. Jeremy Rifkin, a U.S. economist who has become the go-to figure for countries looking to remake their infrastructure for the digital and renewable future, sees potential for a single, 1.1 billion-person electricity market in the Americas that would be almost as big as China's. Rifkin has advised Germany and the EU, as well as China...

Persuading countries to rely on each other to keep the lights on is tough, but the universal, yet intermittent nature of solar and wind energy also makes it inevitable, according to Rifkin. "This isn't the geopolitics of fossil fuels," owned by some and bought by others, he says. "It is biosphere politics, based on geography. Wind and sun force sharing...."

If these supergrids don't get built, it will be because their time has both come and gone. Not only are they expensive, politically difficult, and unpopular — they have to cross a lot of backyards — their focus on mega-power installations seems outdated to some. Distributed microgeneration as close to home as your rooftop, battery storage, and transportable hydrogen all offer competing solutions to the delivery problems supergrids aim to solve.
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Are Transcontinental, Submarine Supergrids the Future of Energy? More

Are Transcontinental, Submarine Supergrids the Future of Energy?

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  • Outdated? Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by b0s0z0ku ( 752509 ) on Sunday June 13, 2021 @05:35PM (#61484022)
    As much as possible, we should attempt to use the power as it's generated vs storing it. Storage and usage later entails inefficiencies, and batteries or fuel cells have environmental costs of their own. Storing more power also means that excessive solar or renewable capacity needs to be added, and renewable power plants aren't environmentally free, either.

    • Re: Outdated? Nah. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vlad30 ( 44644 ) on Sunday June 13, 2021 @05:46PM (#61484044)
      Relying on another country for power with cables that any baddie can cut and claim an innocent anchor drop while ideas like this might work in a world where everyone is peaceful and altruistic on this world it is only asking for trouble

      • Relying on another country for power with cables that any baddie can cut and claim an innocent anchor drop while ideas like this might work in a world where everyone is peaceful and altruistic on this world it is only asking for trouble

        Even here in the supposedly civilized world, expecting your current good neighbors to always be good neighbors is dumb. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada... [www.cbc.ca]

      • Relying on another country for power with cables that any baddie can cut and claim an innocent anchor drop while ideas like this might work in a world where everyone is peaceful and altruistic on this world it is only asking for trouble

        Heh. We're not worried about utility companies being internet facing, why are we worried about any threat that involves leaving the house?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        You mean like relying on a planet that some baddie can poison the atmosphere in and change the climate to make it inhabitable? Yeah, pretty stupid that.

      • Lots of countries already rely on others for such vital things as food, oil, vehicles, aircraft, weapons, water, microchips or important metals.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jlar ( 584848 )

          Lots of countries already rely on others for such vital things as food, oil, vehicles, aircraft, weapons, water, microchips or important metals.

          One difference is however that you can have rather long lasting emergency stockpiles of all these products. If you get (much of your) electricity from an unstable country you will be without power the moment it is cut off. And for most of the other products that you mention you will have time to adjust your consumption or find alternative suppliers in case the supply is terminated.

          But of course the stability of your trading partners is a factor that you must include when deciding to trade with them. For ele

      • You're reasoning in "countries" and "wars". That model is outdated. We are reasoning at the "planet" and "species survival" scales.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        That's a movie plot threat though. Think about what is involved.

        They need to send a sub to locate the cable and then cut it. The ocean is constantly monitored by hydrophones so the chances of this going unnoticed are slim, especially the cutting part.

        Modern cables aren't just a big long copper wire, they have build in sensors for monitoring for to help locate problems. They can be repaired relatively quickly.

        Also there is usually more than one, so the loss of one isn't critical. It does attract attention th

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jlar ( 584848 )

          They need to send a sub to locate the cable and then cut it. The ocean is constantly monitored by hydrophones so the chances of this going unnoticed are slim, especially the cutting part.

          Locating the cable is probably trivial and can be done by surface "research vessels" months or years in advance without raising any suspicions. And no, "the ocean" is not monitored by hydrophones. A tiny portion of it is. And what if the submarine just places remote controlled or timed explosives on the cable? And does that for a number of cables and a number of locations along the cable with the first and last explosive going off first so that the sensors that would tell you where the other breaks are do n

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            A competent adversary would as far as I can se be able to pretty much cripple your power import/export through these cables for many months with little effort.

            Okay, let's say you are right. Every nation with half decent subs plants their own explosives on these cables and everyone is ready to push their button and cut the other side off.

            Presumably they do the same for all the other cables, like communications and internet.

            How does it actually help anyone? It might do some economic damage, but it's not going to take out military defences or retaliation capability. It would just be a pointless escalation of hostilities that achieves little beyond making the other s

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by jlar ( 584848 )

              A competent adversary would as far as I can se be able to pretty much cripple your power import/export through these cables for many months with little effort.

              Okay, let's say you are right. Every nation with half decent subs plants their own explosives on these cables and everyone is ready to push their button and cut the other side off.

              Presumably they do the same for all the other cables, like communications and internet.

              How does it actually help anyone? It might do some economic damage, but it's not going to take out military defences or retaliation capability. It would just be a pointless escalation of hostilities that achieves little beyond making the other side start with the same cold war spy novel bullshit in retaliation.

              Power production and distribution is a prime target in conflicts and have been that for a long time. Extremely critical facilities may have backup power but often it is not designed to provide power for extended periods and many resources have to be diverted to alleviate the impact of losing power to facilities such as water plants and medical care facilities. Just think of what would actually work in your home if the power was cut to both your home and to the utilities to your home.

              But you are right in the

              • Power production and distribution is a prime target in conflicts and have been that for a long time. Actually no. In WWII power production facilities were intentionally NOT TARGETED. Because after you have conquered and subdued the country, you need the power. And power infrastructure is the most complex thing to rebuild.
                The idea that a nuke takes > 10. to 15 years to build because of lawsuits: is just a myth. The construction itself rarely is quicker than 10 years. Same for "a simple coal plant". Some g

          • And nobody would have backup power generation available for a power loss on this scale.
            That is nonsense. Everyone will have the back up power.
            Or do you think the coal plants Germany has shut down, are gone? They are mothballed that is all. It would probably take a week to get the coal to power them up, though. But there are mothballed plants, e.g. the big one at the entrance to Frankfurts main rail station, that have a cubic km of coal on a small hill outside of the plant.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

        The global internet works because 'any baddie' doesn't keep cutting internet cables.

        Europe already has plenty of country to country undersea power cables, in the UK we have links to France's and Norway's grids and Have been mulling over* grid links to Iceland. I don't see linking to solar farms in Morocco or Turkey being a problem.

        *Latest UK to Iceland: https://www.oedigital.com/news... [oedigital.com]

        Right now much of Europe is relying on Russia for Natural Gas, that is both a bad idea with respects to climate change and

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jlar ( 584848 )

          The global internet works because 'any baddie' doesn't keep cutting internet cables.

          And because it is designed to be resilient against such attacks. Traffic will be routed through other cables if some of them disappear.

        • that is both a bad idea with respects to climate change and a bad idea for political reasons.
          It is actually a good idea for political reasons. That is why we are doing it. (*facepalm*)

          There are many national and international gas and oil pipelines, 'any baddie' hasn't stopped those either.
          You seem to be out of the loop. Where is that rock you are living under?
          https://news.slashdot.org/stor... [slashdot.org] Oh ... you ave no excuse for your utter lack of knowledge. It even was on /.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by MrL0G1C ( 867445 )

            And? Do you think that's going to stop anyone build new pipelines? it's besides the point. They hacked something, they didn't damage the pipeline. Computers should be secured, that's a separate issue.

    • We must go higher (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Iamthecheese ( 1264298 ) on Sunday June 13, 2021 @07:42PM (#61484288)
      In a country the size of the US regional efficiencies are possible. Solar power is best generated in the hot desert, best stored in a colder climate, and needs to be used in industrial complexes and cities. So the storage becomes a lot less problematic if you're shipping lithium or nickel up from the LA ports and building your batteries in Montana and your solar panels in Southeastern California.

      "all" that's needed to make this happen is about twice the voltage, wider spacing, and a lot of high-temperature low-sag lines. That's a huge investment but we have to face up to the fact that solar+storage is already at or near parity with coal. (and that's not even considering the externalized cost of pollution from coal) Building new coal plants now would cost more over the next 30 years than building solar infrastructure now for the same amount of power. And since the Biden administration is hell bent on spending ALL the money it's much better spent on solar now than most other uses.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by larwe ( 858929 )
      I'm also curious if these ultra long power cables have been tested underwater. There are higher losses running a cable through seawater than through air, because seawater is a soup of ions and the electric field around the cable pushes those ions around, losing cable energy in the process. It's too late in the evening for me to adequately determine whether these DC cables would be affected by that phenomenon in the same way that telegraphy/telephony cables carrying rapidly varying voltages are affected.

    • But isn't there electricity loss when it's transmitted over long distance?

    • Transporting it also entails inefficiencies, though.

  • Power issues in one area can cause black outs in the entire grid. Canada and US have this issue, as we trust Canada and they trust us.

    Even so in 2003 a blackout struck both Canada and the North East US. That was an accident, but it could be intentional if opposing countries were involved. Think Russia and Ukraine.

    It takes very good, long standing, trusting relationships to share an electrical grid.

  • WTF don't people realise, the era of the centralised large scale power plant is over.
    Power to the people !
    We can now generate and store power for all purposes with small scale, local equipment.
    Power is as cheap as sunshine and wind.
    It came from a fusion reactor (the sun) and was transmitted by light,
    we can convert it into electricity and store it, then use it.

    • There is a balance though. Oftentimes, larger power plants have economies of scale, where a larger engine that generates 100MW of power is more economical than 100 smaller engines generating 1 MW.

      The ideal is "all the above" on the grid, but don't discount the large plants. We need everything. Finland has dedicated natural gas plants whose only job is to fire up to get the power plants which require power existing on the grid to start up. The more types of power, the better, with an emphasis on renewabl

    • The cost of power, if you have to store it, has to include the cost of the batteries amortized over their life. For grid scale batteries I think it is like 5 cents per kWh just for the batteries and neglecting all other costs. If you use a tesla powerwall it will be much more than that because on a dollar/kWh basis, the powerwall is pretty expensive.

      Small scale off-grid power is actually way more expensive than grid power, even here in California which has some of the highest grid prices of anywhere in the

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Bert64 ( 520050 )

      Most power demand is in cities, and yet densely populated cities have the least scope for local power generation.
      The limited and expensive surface area make solar and wind impractical. Sure some buildings can have rooftop solar, but apartment blocks tend to be tall and thin so the power consumption massively outstrips the limited solar capacity you can put on the roof.
      Cities don't want nuclear or fossil burning plants nearby, as the resulting emissions or perceived risks make them unpopular.

  • UHVDC is useful but only in specific contexts. As such, it is used but all the equipment is highly specialized and very proprietary. Furthermore, it's generally not a good idea to "put all your eggs in one basket" as someone could "accidentally" cut off your electricity. People have suggested it could be used in the US for sending solar power across the continent and while a neat idea it's not highly economical, robust enough and requires both cooperation and relying on others. Self-reliance is some sor

    • BSing much? HVDC has been used for nearly a century and is used world-wide right now.

      Gosh cooperating with other people is risky? The entire economy both national and international depends on very high levels of cooperation - no one makes everything in one location any more, not even in China. Supply chains are global and we routinely depend on factories in Thailand, Taiwan and South Korea and Chinese shipping to get parts to us just in time. That can be a little risky in the global economy is disrupted, or

      • HVDC has been used for nearly a century and is used world-wide right now.

        I'm perfectly aware that it's been in use since the 1930s in Europe.

        Gosh cooperating with other people is risky? The entire economy both national and international depends on very high levels of cooperation

        Precisely why I referred to it as being mythical. The problem isn't the reality, it's perception.

        Supply chains are global and we routinely depend on factories in [...]. That can be a little risky in the global economy is disrupted

        Which is precisely the argument that will be made. I'm not saying it's a legitimate argument, I'm saying this is the resistance you can expect if a serious proposal were put forth.

        You didn't have any actual arguments against this, but is this really the best you could do?

        Projects are often quashed not because of facts but because of public perception. Why bother with any of this when nuclear is a far better option to start with? Th

    • The summary’s premise is garbage, but north-south HVDC has huge opportunities for seasonal buffering of solar and other resources. Europe:Africa, NorthAmerica:SouthAmerica are the obvious ones

  • A super-grid would also eliminate many of the controversial siting decisions for nuclear plants.

    That could also change local attitudes towards long term waste storage. You could build the plants in the county where the storage facility is built, creating jobs and eliminating the need for local property taxes, then ship the power all the way across the country.

    • I like the idea of having a nuclear plants in isolated areas and pushing the power a few hundred miles. Forget about trying to convince people and politicians, just found a completely new area and then push the power to where you want it. It's backwards but if it avoids the pitfalls of traditional nuclear (endless lawsuits) then why not?

      • The distances between some not so randomly picked cities might interest you:
        Helsinki - Chernobyl: 647.80 mi (1,042.54 km)
        Munich - Chernobyl: 858.87 mi (1,382.21 km) (Interesting that Helsinki is closer, a bit counterintuitive looking at a mercator map)
        Madrid - Chernobyl: Distance: 858.87 mi (1,382.21 km)

        So, what is in your eyes a save place? How far away would you place the nukes?

        Hint: around Munich deer, boar and mushrooms are not save to eat. 35 years after the disaster ... so go figure.

  • Time shifting solar (Score:3)

    by bug1 ( 96678 ) on Sunday June 13, 2021 @07:31PM (#61484272)

    Transmission lines can, in effect 'time shift' solar generation so electricity generated from solar is used after the sun goes down.

    Example could be connecting the West coast of Australia to the East cost grid, which is a 3h time difference, so strong solar levels from the West coast available on the east coast in the evening.

    A similar thing could be done between Australian and NZ.

  • The reasons are blatantly obvious.

  • Aren't we told repeatedly that 50% of power generated is lost just transmitting it to its destination? It seems we need generation closer to the load, not further away.

  • Every home should have solar panels. We need a distributed power grid, not a centralized one. Given today's technology (I am referring to advances in aesthetics, cost, AND energy efficiency), there is no excuse for every new single-family home to install a solar roof. Many apartment complexes too, lest they pay for offset.
    Every state (except maybe Alaska) should enter into its building codes the California solar mandate that requires new construction homes to have a solar energy system. The code went into e

    • Oops meant to say there is no excuse for every new single-family home to NOT install a solar roof

    • Great. Invent solar panels capable of surviving a direct hit by a category 1 hurricane with zero damage, and a category 3 hurricane with under $500 worth of damage, and people in Florida might take your proposal seriously.

      Reality: even a little baby category 1 hurricane (like Miami has every 5-12 years) would completely DESTROY most present-day PVA systems. Half the panels would get torn off your roof, then hit, shatter & crack the glass on the half that were left on your neighbor's roof.

  • The bigger the grid, the bigger the blackout...

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/57769/12-biggest-electrical-blackouts-history

    Not looking forward to the day when one tripped circuit breaker ends civilization.
  • https://ia800803.us.archive.or... [archive.org]

    He is hard to read, possibly batshit crazy, but he is right about a lot of what has transpired in my lifetime.

  • One of the best things to happen in modern times, in terms of guaranteeing world peace, is the interdependence of all modern countries. Show me where you can drop a bomb on a civilized nation and not hurt your own interests? For the US, we have factories and facilities from Coca Cola, Caterpiller, General Motors, and other American companies all over the world. The Mexicans and Italians and Germans, even Chinese have major companies operating in the US. It would be stupid for any of us to bomb any other.

    So

  • Transmission lines are lossy as fuck. Making them transcontinental will be especially tough. Turns out water makes transporting electricity difficult.

  • I wrote a big essay about this, then realised that, at no point in the past, or present, has there been enough political stability between countries for this to work.

    People are greedy, and politicians will always be "national first" (or they would join their country with the neighbour). If you disagree, why do countries have states, with different local rules?

    • Yes. Looking at what is going on in the world today I just don't ever see the level of cooperation and trust needed for this to work out.

  • No. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by drwho ( 4190 ) on Sunday June 13, 2021 @09:58PM (#61484524) Homepage Journal

    No, they are not.

  • Though not built yet there is planning going ahead for an Australia to Singapore power cable starting construction in
      2023.
    The idea would be for Australia to build a massive solar farm in Australia and a hvdc cable to Singapore.
    See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

  • After hurricanes devastated the island of Puerto Rico, one of the first and most significant parts of the island’s infrastructure to be impacted was the electricity, grid, where transmission cables [held aloft by pylons] were brought down en masse. Since then, Puerto Rico has been looking in earnest at micro-generation, using primarily solar and wind as the source of energy.

    In some ways and despite the significant challenges, we might be selectively concentrating on just part of the problem. We wou
  • Summary ends with ‘transportable hydrogen’ as a viable alternative. Did I miss a breakthrough where we solved hydrogen embrittlement of metals, piss-poor energy density, and the fact that hydrogen can literally seep through the walls of storage tanks? Hydrogen as a general use fuel has been just like fusion power, just around the corner for 30 years, and probably will be just around the corner in 30 more years.

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