Harley-Davidson Launches All-Electric Motorcycle Brand 'LiveWire' (reuters.com) 114
Harley-Davidson on Monday launched an all-electric motorcycle brand "LiveWire," the latest effort by the company to ramp up bets on the rapidly growing electric-vehicle market. Reuters reports: Named after Harley's first electric motorbike, which was unveiled in [2014], the "LiveWire" division is slated to launch its first branded motorcycle in July. The company had said in February it would create a separate electric vehicle-focused division, as it aims to attract the next generation of younger and more environmentally conscious riders. "We are seizing the opportunity to lead and define the market in EV," Chief Executive Officer Jochen Zeitz said in a statement on Monday. "LiveWire also plans to innovate and develop technology that will be applicable to Harley-Davidson electric motorcycles in the future." "There's a new logo and a new 'virtual' headquarters, with engineering teams stationed in Silicon Valley and Milwaukee," notes The Verge. "LiveWire will work with Harley-Davidson dealerships as an independent brand, with a blend of digital and physical retail formats."
Cool brand name... (Score:1)
Hope for that company (Score:5, Interesting)
There entire brand was built around a certain look, a look that required them to use out-dated cylinder technology. It's why their motorcycles looked fantastic despite being under-powered.
Hopefully with this new brand they can turn it around and create modern, motorcycles that can compete on the roads as well as the show-room.
Re:Hope for that company (Score:5, Interesting)
without the sound of a 45-degree V-Twin is it the Harley experience that people expect? It reminds me of when HD put out a higher tech 60-degree V-Twin for their V-Rod line. There was some outcry from older bikers that didn't like the sound or the look of the V-Rod, as to be expected from a group that maintains a pretty rigid group identification based on image.
The Revolution engine in the V-Rod is more performance capable than the so-called out-dated cylinder technology. And has been used in some form for race bikes in the past. Maybe it's time for a change in image for HD, but if history w.r.t V-Rod is much of an indicator, there is little chance of big changes taking hold with their customer base.
I hope HD hangs onto electric tech and continues to improve it. But I suspect it will remain a niche product for quite some time.
Re:Hope for that company (Score:5, Insightful)
without the sound of a 45-degree V-Twin is it the Harley experience that people expect?
You nailed it. When the weather turns nice, people might want to able enjoy the outdoors. How can HD's fan base be dickish assholes if their personal vehicle doesn't create the maximum amount of noise pollution?
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They could always switch to driving Honda civics with millions of watts of subwoofers to shake their entire neighbourhood with thumping noise that some people call "music".
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Amateurs. The real pros install their million watt subwoofers in the saddle bag of their Harleys
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Loud pipes - small pee-pee.
My old bike sounded like a sewing machine when idle and was somewhat tame sounding wide open. As expected with a parallel twin (360 degree crank)
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without the sound of a 45-degree V-Twin is it the Harley experience that people expect?
You nailed it. When the weather turns nice, people might want to able enjoy the outdoors. How can HD's fan base be dickish assholes if their personal vehicle doesn't create the maximum amount of noise pollution?
You need to add to that speakers that are loud enough that the rider can hear them over the noise of the bike. I have an asshole neighbor like that who commutes past my home every morning about 7AM
Re:Hope for that company (Score:4, Informative)
Speakers and fake engine noises. Some fossil manufacturers added them to their electric cars so owners can go brum-brum. Like one of those ride-on toys for 5 year olds.
In fact they have been doing it for many years with ICE cars too. The engine is tuned to be efficient and quiet on the outside, so they pipe in some fake noise over the entertainment system. You can even choose what you want the car to sound like on some of them.
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Speakers and fake engine noises. Some fossil manufacturers added them to their electric cars so owners can go brum-brum. Like one of those ride-on toys for 5 year olds.
There's ambience instead of unsettling quiet for people who find music theory in the sound of a well tuned v-8.
Then there are the weekend warriors and rebels without a cause whose idea of being badass means rattling windows as they cruise by.
I don't think that even they are such ridiculous posers that they would install sound systems on their bikes capable of sustaining an excess of 90 decibels. But who knows.
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It's true, there is no more efficient of a machine for turning petroleum distillates into noise while reducing the byproduct of horsepower than a Harley-Davidson motorcycle.
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Exactly, sometimes its just time to leave a certain customer behind. Starting a new brand so they can take the money they made selling their 'traditional' bikes and segway that into something still in their wheel house but with the potential to find a new market makes sense.
tastes change over time. Cars and Bikes are kind of interesting because there is a generational over hang. People in their mid life still still dream about the sweet ride their father had or that car they lusted after as a teen but could
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Electric bikes got no Soul (Score:2)
... not even a decent oil leak.
Re: Hope for that company (Score:2)
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"without the sound of a 45-degree V-Twin is it the Harley experience that people expect?"
It's what the sleeping neighbors in 4 square miles around want.
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Maybe HD should start investing in electrical technology and marketing instead of living off of the fruits of their labour 40 years ago? They know their customer base is falling of a cliff, and they should have acted sooner.
1. Create a distinctive sound produced by an electrical motorbike (call it "HD experience" or whatever)
2. Put that motorbike in some popular movies
3. Repeat step 2 as many times as you can
4. ???
5. Profit
They seem to me like Ballmer laughing at iphone.
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Porsche has struggled with this exact problem as well. They switched some of their line to turbocharged 4-cylinder engines which had better HP and much better torque figures and were a lot of fun to drive, but there was a huge outcry about the sound and "purity" of the loss of the naturally aspirated flat six. The same thing happened when they offered some of their highest-end models without the option of a manual transmission.
Like Harley, their solution was just to offer it all up if you want to buy it.
Re:Hope for that company (Score:4, Funny)
There entire brand was built around a certain look, a look that required them to use out-dated cylinder technology. It's why their motorcycles looked fantastic despite being under-powered.
That's why they're planning to stay outdated by using a 4-volt system.
It uses a pair of enormous cylindrical lead-acid battery cells which are prominently mounted at a narrow V angle in the center of the frame.
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Maybe that's why they're launching a different brand. They probably don't see their existing customer base as likely to expand very much.
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There entire brand was built around a certain look, a look that required them to use out-dated cylinder technology. It's why their motorcycles looked fantastic despite being under-powered.
I spoke with the owner of an HD dealership about the new eBikes and he had no interest in carrying them because his customers were not interested in them. They simply were not Harleys to them. He felt they probably will find a market but it won't be the traditional Harley owner, for whom the look, sound and feel is why they ride them.
Hopefully with this new brand they can turn it around and create modern, motorcycles that can compete on the roads as well as the show-room.
I suspect he was right and HD will need to find a new demographic that wants them. I also know a number of current Harley owners and they wouldn't be caught dead on an eBike
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It's obvious they couldn't actually call it a Harley-Davidson; Harley owners would be looking all over that thing for fouled spark plugs to remove after riding only 500 miles and be very confused when they couldn't find them.
I can't imagine I'd like the experience.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Half the fun of riding a motorcycle, is the rumble, the sound of a nicely tuned exhaust...the vibrations, etc of the engine as you ride it and hit the gas.
I'm also not one of the crotch rocket types...I don't mind driving well over 100 mph in a car with 4 wheels, but I have no inclination to go much over 70 on 2 wheels.
In fact I often try to plan my trips on lower speed roads.
I like to ride a cruiser type bike...more fun to go slower and ride through the Quarter and get girls to hop on and go for a ride with you....than go too fast to see anything around you.
Sure an electric bike my have a ton or torque, but that's not going to mean anything for the style of riding I enjoy.
What are they going to do, have MP3 players and external speakers to make it sound fun?
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the sound of a nicely tuned exhaust.
Wait..you mean to tell us that exhaust sound is... intentional?
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I'm in the motorcycles should be seen and not heard camp, but I was never a fan of loud vehicles in general. A nice quiet tune and an actual muffler? Then sure.
Re:I can't imagine I'd like the experience.... (Score:4, Insightful)
the sound of a nicely tuned exhaust.
Wait..you mean to tell us that exhaust sound is... intentional?
Indeed. Morons like annoying everyone around them and don't realize how much everyone hates the sound of their retarded hobby.
Re:I can't imagine I'd like the experience.... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not quite that simple. Please see my comment above.
Short version - I had an unintentional rusted though exhaust on the only motorbike I could afford. Cars knew I was there and nobody did anything stupid that needed me to avoid it. Previously cars changing lane without even looking was an almost daily event. Many car drivers are careless in the extreme. I don't like loud noises either, but loud exhausts on motorbikes are an effective safety feature.
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1) Wearing a helmet - rock, rain, bugs, birds don't stand a chance.
2) Taking a motorcycle safety class.
3) LEARNING to ride a motorcycle.
4) Being traffic aware.
5) Leaving my headlights on HI beam.
6) Keeping up the maintenance of my motorcycle
Maybe this is too much work? A LOUD exhaust is a lazy and obnoxious solution. I CHOSE to ride a motorcycle. The freedom, the accelleration,the nimbleness of the bike - you just can't match in a car, You are part of
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loud exhausts on motorbikes are an effective safety feature.
It really isn't. This has been debunked many times.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/n... [motorbiscuit.com]
Most people perpetuating that myth just like the sound.
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This was about 25 years ago now. Cars have improved a lot. Blind spot monitoring systems are a wonderful thing.
But I'm talking about a rusted though exhaust here on a Kawasaki, not a nice bass rumble. I certainly didn't like that sound. It certainly wasn't intentional. It was the product of being paid too little and a bike with a rusty exhaust was the only practical way I could get to and from work. It was far out of walking range and public transport was not an option.
I saw the effects. No sleepy commuters
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Sure, in that environment you can hear it, but that is also where it disturbs others the most. There are others too. There is a long tunnel near where I live, and in there you can REALLY hear the big V-twins coming from behind if they rev it a bit.
But the slogan is "Loud pipes save lives". Which is not what it does to any significant extent in slow moving urban traffic. Had the slogan been "Loud pipes save fender benders" I would agree with it.
My take is that it probably has some effect, but mostly where it
Re: I can't imagine I'd like the experience.... (Score:2)
There really isn't much difference between a 'fender bender' and getting seriously injured or dead when you have zero protection and are hit by two tons of steel controlled by someone who "didn't see you" because she didn't even look.
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I'm not a part of the whole "loud pipes save lives" cliche, but some sound make sense. When I rode the LiveWire prototype back in 2014, I had pedestrians almost step right in front of me in the parking lot (I was paying attention, so I wouldn't have hit them). "holy crap, we didn't hear you".
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Years ago I used to ride a motorcycle to work, simply because it was all I could afford. This was long before things like blind spot monitoring systems. The number of times cars would do crazy dangerous stuff because they didn't see me, because they didn't look, was terrifying. People might quickly glance at mirrors, but they never check blind spots. My motorcycle was old junk and one day my exhaust sprung a leak. It was LOUD. Cars knew I was there, nobody did anything stupidly dangerous that needed emergen
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So clearly you're not an iPhone user.
https://www.91mobiles.com/hub/... [91mobiles.com]
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So clearly you're not an iPhone user.
Are you implying that he is holding his nutsack wrong?
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No worse than the current 5 gallons of potentially explosive gasoline in close proximity to said nutsack.
I would argue it is much worse, as tanks of gasoline don't just suddenly burst into flames like batteries do.
In an accident, it could happen, but you're probably already dead anyway since we're talking about a motorcycle.
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Having a potentially explosive lithium battery in close proximity to your nutsack is unsettling as well.
That would not even be a consideration. You would be on a road surrounded by cars that don't actually check their blind spots before changing lane. Many drivers are distracted in one way or another. You would be on a vehicle that makes no noise. You have no metal frame around you.
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I can't imagine I'd enjoy or really even want an electric motorcycle.
Half the fun of riding a motorcycle, is the rumble, the sound of a nicely tuned exhaust...the vibrations, etc of the engine as you ride it and hit the gas.
I'm also not one of the crotch rocket types...I don't mind driving well over 100 mph in a car with 4 wheels, but I have no inclination to go much over 70 on 2 wheels.
In fact I often try to plan my trips on lower speed roads.
I like to ride a cruiser type bike...more fun to go slower and ride through the Quarter and get girls to hop on and go for a ride with you....than go too fast to see anything around you.
Sure an electric bike my have a ton or torque, but that's not going to mean anything for the style of riding I enjoy.
What are they going to do, have MP3 players and external speakers to make it sound fun?
That's because you are too conservative to move with the times. You are one of those people that keeps Cable TV alive (and TV in general). Many young people these days don't even own a TV, they use phones, tablets, laptops and PCs and they don't watch TV channels they subscribe to streaming services and generally discard inefficient obsolete technology as what it is, obsolete, a historic curiosity at best. So rest assured, these bikes are not targeted at you, they are targeted at that new generation who wil
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For the last 100 years everything has gotten bigger, faster, more powerful and, more importantly, better. I have a 65 inch television in my living room, a 32 inch 4k monitor on my desktop computer and a 17 inch screen on my laptop.
Yes, but I've noticed a paradox where we now have all these wonderful things you've described, but the content is just a bunch of bullshit.
Re: I can't imagine I'd like the experience.... (Score:2)
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Well, first, you don't have to go 100 MPH. You can go less...
Also, while not a motorcyclist, I would think the most interesting thing about cruising would be doing so without making a sound. A nice leisurely ride along a non-highway road at 50MPH with no noise whatsoever would be far more relaxing, in my opinion.
I understand where you're coming from, though. When I go electric, I will miss the sound of a well-tuned automobile exhaust and a stick shift. That said, there's something satisfying about blowi
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Also, while not a motorcyclist, I would think the most interesting thing about cruising would be doing so without making a sound. A nice leisurely ride along a non-highway road at 50MPH with no noise whatsoever would be far more relaxing, in my opinion.
The wind, the open sky, the sense of freedom and being in tune with how the environment smells and the subtle changes in temperature... none of that compares to the satisfaction of being able to set off every single dog in the neighborhood as you open throttle from a dead stop.
None of the electric riders will ever truly know what it means to ride. To experience the joy that comes from working with your own hands removing the factory mufflers and installing straight pipes so that every acceleration can be a
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None of the electric riders will ever truly know what it means to ride. To experience the joy that comes from working with your own hands removing the factory mufflers and installing straight pipes so that every acceleration can be a moment of divine creation. To boldly say to the world: "I'm coming! I am here! Look at me! Now I'm going! FUCK YOU EVERYONE!!!"
I'm sorry about your penis.
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I'm sorry about your penis.
It probably wore out the factory muffler..
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Whoooosh (the sound of an electric motorcycle going by, as well as the joke)
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At 50 mph, you tend to be dealing with a 50 mph wind.
A quick google search shows 40 mph is around 90 db just due to the wind hitting the helmet, which is quite a bit of noise and a reason to wear ear plugs if you care about your hearing.
As for Harley, th
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I don't know. An electric motorcycle sounds like it could be a blast to ride. Zipping silently down roads. If you really needed the aural feedback, you could pipe in the sound of the Tron lightcycle. I had a beat up old Sportster I gave to my nephew that I stopped riding years ago because the thing was too goddamn loud. I don't have anything to prove that requires the kind of noise that thing makes.
Yes, I'm lukewarm on electric cars,
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Half the fun of riding a motorcycle, is the rumble, the sound of a nicely tuned exhaust...the vibrations, etc of the engine as you ride it and hit the gas.
They could just pump out fake engine sounds [core77.com] (and other sources) like some cars do. Perhaps they can include a vibrate mode too when idling ...
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I'm actually a bit embarrassed when my bike is making a loud noise, but then again I'm not an inconsiderate attention whore larping as an outlaw like the 70 year olds who ride Harleys.
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What may be fun to you may not be fun to someone else.
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Always wanted a motorcycle after reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". Philosophy aside the writing about riding a motorcycle across states on rural roads always stuck with me.
Interesting (Score:2)
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
I am very puzzled too. The Livewire bike has been out for a couple of months, I think. I test road it about four weeks ago. And I have to agree with all the online reviews that I have found. It's the most fun I have had on the road in a long time. Really awesome bike. If you ever try one, you'll not want to go back to a gas powered bike.
Unfortunately, it has two major issues right now. It's rather pricey at around $30k, and range is very limited. In real-life usage, you might only get as little as 80 miles per charge. And unless you can find the right type of charge station (not necessarily easy for this particular model), you might have to wait 12h for a full charge at 110V.
This makes for a great commuter bike, but doesn't make for a good touring bike. And $30k is a bit hefty for a commuter.
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This makes for a great commuter bike, but doesn't make for a good touring bike. And $30k is a bit hefty for a commuter.
Well they have done the "we can take this bike to unexpected places" video.
See https://www.harley-davidson.co... [harley-davidson.com]
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Yeah this article is weird. I rode one of the Livewire prototypes back in 2014, and I've seen them show up in the showroom floor for the past couple of years.
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There was a documentary series titled "The Long Way Up" about riding LiveWire electric motorcycles from Argentina to California;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
But it was premiered on AppleTV so I presume they didn't want anyone to see it.
=Smidge=
Made in China (Score:1)
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Hmm yeah. A "purchase experience" and an "engagement model". Sounds like "buy it online, with support being optional".
Re: Made in China (Score:1)
Reminds me of South Park (Score:1)
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"We're turning some heads now!"
Maybe South Park will do an episode were the bike riders, the kids who install resonator cans for their low displacement 4 cylinder engines, and the stereo fanatics all have a competition trying to outdo each other.
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Obligatory Harley joke:
Q: What's the difference between a Harley and a Hoover?
A: Where the dirt bag sits.
LiveWire... (Score:2)
LiveWire sounds like a filesharing program, or maybe some kind of news service. Sounds like something a Boomer thinks a 20-year-old would like. Sounds like the kind of thing their existing customer base will completely hate. Harley is laser-focused on selling a specific vintage look and tech, for a higher price than the competition, because people want the badge.
It could be a good bike for all I know, but if it succeeds, it will be in spite of it coming from Harley.
Need the noize (Score:3)
With any luck, they'll also launch a range of black helmets with bluetooth speakers in them so that the riders can still hear the sound of overly-loud piston engine.
Add a small container to constantly drip black oil spots and you've almost got a _real_ Harley!
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Add a small container to constantly drip black oil spots and you've almost got a _real_ Harley!
I think they could buy up and repurpose the defunct Juicero machines for that, packaging old used (original HD) engine oil in squeeze packets and deliver the contents in an electronically controlled way. You could even purchase different programs that drip the oil in the different well-known patterns of many of the vintage HD models.
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Come on (Score:2)
I desperately want an electric motorcycle, but all available options are jokes.
Take for instance the Livewire. $30,000 starting price, that's nearly twice as much as a brand new BMW for a much smaller bike.
Then look at the specs. 140 miles of range (asterisk asterisk asterisk), 95 miles of probable range under "ideal" conditions. Likely less when there's rain or wind.
The thing only ha
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Then, it only has a top speed of 95 MPH.
Just to compare to a $16K BMW:
* Top Speed: 184 MPH
* Range on Full: ~400Mi
Great! Where can I ride at 184 MPH? Not anywhere in the US. Also... pretty sure I wouldn't want to. I've ridden a bike at 110 and that was plenty fast enough for me -- much more, um... "exciting" than an auto at that speed.
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It's Harley so of course it's garbage :)
There are other EV bikes out there: https://www.zeromotorcycles.co... [zeromotorcycles.com]
200 miles range, 124mph max speed and for $20k.
Obviously there are still some limitations, I don't ride bikes so I don't know how much of an issue it's in practice. Slow charging seems like it would be the biggest issue, based on this road trip test: https://jalopnik.com/i-took-a-... [jalopnik.com]
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Just to compare to a $16K BMW:
* Top Speed: 184 MPH
* Range on Full: ~400Mi
Do you really get around 400 miles of range in real world conditions on a single tank of gas? That's impressive.
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I have the same general feelings. Electrics just make more sense for cars at this point in time. The range on electric bikes just isn't there, especially in the American market, where motorcycles are generally treated as pleasure craft. I have 5 motorcycles, so I'm sure I don't fit the typical user profile, but when I go for a ride, it's easy for me to knock out a hundred miles on a Saturday.
Oh joy! An electric motorcycle.... (Score:3)
Re: Oh joy! An electric motorcycle.... (Score:1)
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That's what you do for any bike if you have any sense. At least in my country, around $1000 will dress you up with a bare-bones entry-level set, and I would recommend you to spend some more.
Read this a Limewire (Score:2)
some thoughts from a rider (Score:2)
Trust Slashdot to deliver obscure story links. Try this H-D link; more informative, better pictures. https://www.harley-davidson.co... [harley-davidson.com]
As a rider of everything from the American built Indians, Harleys, Beemers, trials bikes, enduro bikes, scooters, and oh yes, a Whizzer bicycle with a gasoline engine; What do I think of this Harley? First this: every bike I owned was a maintenance nuisance. This electric bike, not too bad. Noise? It's not going to be silent. Wind noise is a problem even with some very expens
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Really, to deal with range, you're going to need some fairings. "Traditional" motorcycle aerodynamics are atrocious, and the reason EV bikes lose all their range on the highway. You can't just pile on tons of battery like EV cars have done, it's just too heavy and bulky.
Truly aerodynamic fairings look super dorky and no one wants them. I don't really see a solution to this.
https://ecomodder.com/blog/diy... [ecomodder.com]
https://www.schultzengineering... [schultzengineering.us]
Just like ICE only double the price! (Score:1)
wait (Score:2)
so what's this one going to leak? electricity just isn't as exciting as engine oil
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so what's this one going to leak? electricity just isn't as exciting as engine oil
Smoke, something Lucas perfected a long time ago and Harley can license it to get the famed Lucas reliability to keep Harley's reputation intact.
Long Way Up (Score:1)
Think they used these in the mini series with Ewan McGregor
Watch The Long Way Up (Score:2)
Anyway they were quite happy with the handling and performance of the bikes WHEN the limited range is not an issue. And it regularly was an issue for them in the beginning.
Also of interest was the that the supp
Re: Watch The Long Way Up (Score:2)
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+1 here. I thought the show was a reasonable endorsement for their technology, even though all the warts were out on show. I enjoyed it!
Meh (Score:2)
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Too late, too expensive, too little range.
They released the prototype back in 2014, and they've been in showrooms for the past 3 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Nobody cares about HD
They were probably the first high-volume manufacture to release an electric motorcycle for public sale. They actually beat BMW, Honda, Yamaha, Ducati, etc to the game.
Screwing the Pooch (Score:2)
This is Harley Davidson. They'll likely screw it up....
Average age of Harley Buyer? 47.
Average yearly income: 100k USD
They have tried for years to capture the younger market, bringing "cheap" bikes like the 883 to the market. Get the riders when they're young, that way when they make real money, they'll have the 25-35k to buy the classic Big Harleys. Didn't work out that well.
They fucked up big time buying Buell. Here they bought what was, at the time, one of the most wildy innovative motorcycle companies
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Make sure it is still loud (Score:1)
So I know there's an old fat asshole driving down my street.
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HD released LiveWire back in 2014, Harley-Davidson Unveils Their First Electric Motorcycle [slashdot.org].
Maybe this is a re-release because they had to recall them due to "charging difficulties", Harley-Davidson Stops Electric Motorcycle Production Due To Charging Problem [slashdot.org].
You seem confused about what a brand is. This is a brand, named after the LiveWire that only actually went on sale in 2019.
Here, I'll quote the very first bit of the article you didn't bother reading:
Named after Harley's first electric motorbike, which was unveiled in 2019, the "LiveWire" division is slated to launch its first branded motorcycle in July.