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Linus Torvalds Would Like To Use An M1 Mac For Linux, But... (zdnet.com) 246

Posted by BeauHD from the pipe-dream dept.
Yes, Torvalds said he'd love to have one of the new M1-powered Apple laptops, but it won't run Linux and, in an exclusive interview he explains why getting Linux to run well on it isn't worth the trouble. Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols writes via ZDNet: Recently, on the Real World Technologies forum, Linux's creator Linus Torvalds was asked what he thought of the new M1-powered Apple laptops. Torvalds replied, "I'd absolutely love to have one if it just ran Linux." You may think, "what's the problem? Doesn't Linux run on practically every processor on the planet from 80386s to IBM s390x to the ARM family of which Apple's M1 chip is a child?" Well, yes, yes it does. But it takes more than a processor to run a computer.

Torvalds would like to run Linux on these next-generation Macs. As he said, "I've been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for a long time. The new Air would be almost perfect, except for the OS. And I don't have the time to tinker with it, or the inclination to fight companies that don't want to help." Aye, there's the rub. In an exclusive interview, Torvalds expanded on why he can't see porting Linux to the M1-based Macs. "The main problem with the M1 for me is the GPU and other devices around it, because that's likely what would hold me off using it because it wouldn't have any Linux support unless Apple opens up."

Still, while Torvalds knows Apple opening up their chipsets "seems unlikely, but hey, you can always hope." Even if that "wasn't an issue," Torvalds continued, "My personal hope would be more cores. Even in a laptop, I don't care about 20-hour battery life (and I wouldn't get it building kernels anyway). I'd rather plug it in a bit more often, and have 8 big cores." As for the Mac's limited RAM -- no more than 16GBs on current models -- he can live with that. "16GBs is actually ok by me because I don't tend to do things that require a lot more RAM. All I do is read email, do git and kernel compiles. And yes, I have 64GB in my desktop, but that's because I have 32 cores and 64 threads, and I do hugely parallel builds. Honestly, even then 32GB would be sufficient for my loads." That said, other developers and power users may want more from the new Macs, Torvalds thinks. "The people who really want tons of memory are the ones doing multiple VMs or huge RAW file photography and video."
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Linus Torvalds Would Like To Use An M1 Mac For Linux, But... More

Linus Torvalds Would Like To Use An M1 Mac For Linux, But...

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  • why bother (Score:5, Insightful)

    by OrangeTide ( 124937 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @07:58PM (#60763312) Homepage Journal

    There are numerous other ARM chips that already fully support Linux at their primary operating system, some of them massive multicore CPUs with 10GbE network controllers attached, It is an easier path to pop one of these into a laptop chassis than it is to pig-wrestle support from a vendor like Apple. Sometimes hardware is really easier than software.

    • Re:why bother (Score:5)

      by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:51PM (#60763472)

      Right , and thats totally true. The problem is currentlly the M1 smokes the competition in performance on a per core basis. The fact people can even talk about it in similar performance frames as the intel/amds is astonishing.

      Capitalism being what it is pretty much demands Qualcomm and the like will be hardcore upping their game to catch up, and hopefully we'll see Qualcomm and other cores showing similar performance.

      But thet truth is, people like Apples. For all their faults (and those are legion) , the devices themselves tend to have solid engineering, and are usually very attractive machines, andlike it or not, that matters to a lot of people. (although apple really does need to consider perhaps a refresh on design. Aluminium with black keys is getting a bit cliche in 2020). My Game PC utterly smokes my work macbook, but it aint nowhere near as pretty.

      • > Aluminium with black keys is getting a bit cliche in 2020).

        It is, but then so are the golden arches. Also Coke has had the red can with the white script for a while now.

        The fact that we instantly remembering their styling is part of the (very valuable) branding.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        The M1 isn't that great, fairly comparable to the Snapdragon 865+ and Nvidia Xavier. I expect Nvidia's new part, the Orin, will be even faster.

        Xavier and Orin have a few nice advantages. Better GPUs with CUDA cores, 10 gig ethernet etc.

        The mistake that most reviewers make is to compare devices instead of CPUs. Every device has a thermal and power budget which is almost always less than the CPU is capable of.

        • Unfortunately my router only has 10gig ethernet and my DSL line is far below 1Gbit.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            10G networking is becoming more common as people move to NAS for bulk storage. With the arrival of home NAS appliances that you can just throw disks into 1GB networking is starting to look a bit slow.

            A lot of motherboards come with 2.5G LAN ports now. As soon as the cost gets down 10G will become more common too.

            • OMG - Spot the linux nerd. "As people move to NAS for bulk storage"... what people? Zero normal home users use NAS. Zero. Anyone with a Home NAS is at least a power user, and, probably a nerd (Yes, I've owned a Home NAS), and home NAS systems have been around for 20 years and they were shit 20 years ago, and they're still shit, or expensive, or expensive and shit. Pretty much any Mac user has their valuables in the cloud; along with any Google user. And for those of use who are developers; all my sourc

      • Re:why bother (Score:5, Interesting)

        by pr0nbot ( 313417 ) on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @06:46AM (#60764476)

        the devices themselves tend to have solid engineering

        I tend to disagree with this. Apple puts form over function time and again, which to me is poor engineering. My MacBook Pro's battery is swelling (WTF) and will eventually render it unusable, but I can't replace it myself. The RAM is soldered in so I can't expand it, for no good reason that I can think of. It can't do DisplayPort daisy chaining, for no good reason other than that Apple seemingly doesn't want to. I stick with it because later models don't have a sensible set of ports and I'd need a dock, which Apple seemingly considers so unnecessary it doesn't make one.

        My iPad shuts down unpredictably when battery life gets to about 40%. For no good reason, I can't enable battery saver mode like I can on my iPhone. Nor, of course, can I replace the battery.

        I use an iPhone 6S, but later models don't have a headphone jack for no good engineering reason that I can discern.

        I've been coming to the conclusion that Apple devices are neither particularly well made, nor particularly well designed. Perhaps the most one could say is they're less poorly designed and built than the competition, but that's debatable - if anything, I'd say they've been lowering the engineering bar by showing other companies what they can get away with. Even so, for a company that charges a premium, has profit margins on these devices in the 20-40% range, and is sat on a mountain of cash, the fact that they're devices aren't pretty much perfect tells me that engineering is not really at the heart of what they do.

        • Re:why bother (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Thumper_SVX ( 239525 ) on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @03:30PM (#60765974) Homepage

          As an ex Mac user, I will say that I personally believe that the Macbook line are terribly engineered laptops with a lot of glaring problems that really drove me away from the brand. People think they're well-engineered because they look nice, kind of like Tesla cars (with a lot of overlap in fanbase by the way).

          I will say though that I can probably help with your docking station problem; since Macbooks have had USB-C for a while now you can pretty much go out and buy any number of USB-C docks that'll work with a Mac just fine. I have a Dell WD-19 on my desk because I have a Latitude 7400 2-in-1 attached to it (my work laptop). However, I've connected my brother-in-law's Macbook Pro to it and it recognized everything and just worked. Recognized the NIC, the display interfaces and the USB slots with no issues.

          It helps if you think of Apple as a fashion company rather than a computer company. They produce goods that look nicer than cheaper alternatives but are functionally identical or worse. I find if I look in the Mac price range of laptops from other manufacturers I can get a hell of a lot of well-engineered laptop for that money (hence the 7400 2-in-1... and by the way Dell is a big proponent of Right to Repair which Apple is trying to kill)

          Phones are a bit more tricky because of the iOS lockin; your apps won't work on an alternative device but if you're willing to either re-buy or find alternatives for your iOS apps then you can get great phones in the same price range. Personally I've been a Google Pixel user for years and have been super happy. My last iPhone was a 4S but I was so glad after I "ripped off the band-aid" and just switched to either different apps or re-bought the ones I really wanted. Keep an eye on Apple; I guarantee the next couple of years they're going to leverage the App Store on Mac to ensure you have a similar lockin to MacOS. They want to keep you in their walled garden. The current denizens don't even seem to realize the wall is getting taller.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Kisai ( 213879 )

      None of them are actually laptops or desktops though. The vast majority of ARM devices right now are scraping the bottom of the barrel for performance (like raspberry Pi type of SoC's) or are on the exa-scale super-computer size. Nothing in between. And for the same reason, the energy requirements.

      Torvalds complaints here are directed at the Macbook... but he clearly doesn't want a laptop.

      Apple will not be making a desktop computer with the M1 or any future SoC. At best, we may see a Mac Pro that has a bunc

      • Re:why bother (Score:4, Informative)

        by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 ) on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @12:01AM (#60763872)
        You do realize that the Mac Mini is a “desktop computer,” no? Sure, it is a far cry from a proper workstation machine, but Apple really isn’t that far from being able to produce one with an appropriate SOC (assuming they feel there is a market for it).

      • Last I checked, there was a Mac Mini with the M1. It would have been tempting if it had had enough SSD or hard drive space.

        • Re:why bother (Score:4, Insightful)

          by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Wednesday November 25, 2020 @02:45AM (#60764100)

          It really baffles me how much business apple chases away with their refusal to let people self-upgrade their machines. Theres a reason I'm stuck on a fairly ancient macbook, I can open it up and tinker if I want more SSD space or more ram.

          And don't even get me started on the insanity that is soldering the fucking battery to the motherboard.

          I don't give a shit how thin my laptop is. I just want to use OsX on a machine that I know will still be good for me in 5-6 years time, because $3K is a *lot* of money to blow on something temporary.

      • Apple will not be making a desktop computer with the M1 or any future SoC.
        Yes they will. And they already have.
        Or do you think a Mac Mini is not a Desktop Computer?

  • GPU and other drivers should be possible (Score:5, Informative)

    by willy_me ( 212994 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:09PM (#60763336)

    From an article on arstechnica [arstechnica.com]:

    As for Windows running natively on the machine, "that's really up to Microsoft," he said. "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications. But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But the Macs are certainly very capable of it."

    So it looks like Apple is not against the idea of their computers running non-MacOS operating systems. Presumably, they are also willing to share the required hardware information needed to make this happen. At least I hope so - I would never purchase a laptop that can not run Linux.

    • Presumably, they are also willing to share the required hardware information needed to make this happen.

      Apple would probably just provide the drivers for those things like the GPU, networking, etc just like other hardware vendors do - or at least the bare minimum like they do for bootcamp now but not provide features like the precision touchpad driver for their trackpad.

    • Re:GPU and other drivers should be possible (Score:5, Insightful)

      by markdavis ( 642305 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:24PM (#60763374)

      >"So it looks like Apple is not against the idea of their computers running non-MacOS operating systems."

      Perhaps MS-Windows. You can't draw any other conclusion from that quote.

      >"Presumably, they are also willing to share the required hardware information needed to make this happen."

      Presumably for a price and for licensing "agreements" and non-disclosures, and so forth and so on.... perhaps. Supporting an open system like Linux, where you make all those specs and patents and whatnot available and compatible with open source.... I think that is probably not going to happen. But, who knows.

      I say, just give it some time and some great Linux-compatible ARM laptops will appear. They won't be Apple, but isn't that an added feature?

    • Presumably, they are also willing to share the required hardware information needed to make this happen.

      Sure, they'll "share" if you pay them the money they ask and sign an NDA for all of it.

    • From an article on arstechnica [arstechnica.com]:

      As for Windows running natively on the machine, "that's really up to Microsoft," he said. "We have the core technologies for them to do that, to run their ARM version of Windows, which in turn of course supports x86 user mode applications. But that's a decision Microsoft has to make, to bring to license that technology for users to run on these Macs. But the Macs are certainly very capable of it."

      So it looks like Apple is not against the idea of their computers running non-MacOS operating systems. Presumably, they are also willing to share the required hardware information needed to make this happen. At least I hope so - I would never purchase a laptop that can not run Linux.

      I wonder if we re-worded things slightly...

      "...that's a decision a Linux user has to make, to bring to license that technology..."

      Sounds like this isn't a question of if it will run Linux...it's more a question of how much you are willing to pay.

  • Shame On Linus (Score:3, Funny)

    by zenlessyank ( 748553 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:31PM (#60763400)

    He is supposed to hate Apple like the rest of us.

    • Apple has released a fair bit of stuff under BSD, MIT, and other open source licenses. But it's not GPL, so as far as Linus is concerned it's all "closed".

      I have no doubt one or more Linux distress will be running decently on the new laptops within a year, regardless.

      • Re:Shame On Linus (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Richard_at_work ( 517087 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @10:24PM (#60763640)

        I think you are mistaking Linus Torvalds for RMS in your post - Linus has a preference, but he still seems to not really give that much of a rats ass about other licenses, certainly not to the extent where he would consider them "closed" if its not the GPL. Hes been willing to use other tools in the past with all sorts of licenses, including proprietary ones.

        RMS on the other hand...

  • "So, Apple, the ball's in your court. If you'd like to see people running Linux on your Macs -- and today many Linux developers and power users do -- all you have to do is open up your hardware and drivers."

    Ha ha ha!
    --Tim Cook

    • "So, Apple, the ball's in your court. If you'd like to see people running Linux on your Macs -- and today many Linux developers and power users do -- all you have to do is open up your hardware and drivers."

      Many Linux developers and power users just run the *nix utilities, toolchains and apps directly under macOS. It is Unix under that GUI after all. And you keep Linux around in a VM for testing.

      So if Parallels or VMware delivers an ARM based emulator then ARM Linux can be run in a VM for similar testing.

  • Chromebooks? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Dan East ( 318230 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @08:44PM (#60763450) Journal

    I've been waiting for an ARM laptop that can run Linux for a long time

    Acer Chromebook R 13
    Acer Chromebook Tab 10 - D651N-K9WT
    ASUS Chromebook C202XA
    ASUS Chromebook Flip C101PA
    HP Chromebook 11a
    Lenovo Chromebook 300E G2 MTK
    Lenovo Chromebook 100E G2
    Samsung Chromebook Plus

  • They used to care, when they were smaller than, and in competition with, Microsoft.

    Way back then, they were all about following "standards", because that was an advantage. But they've since learned from and embraced MS's proprietary BS.

    Does anyone seriously think Apple is going to be harmed it their stuff doesn't run Linux? Mice nuts.

  • Itâ(TM)s really not worth the bother for companies to support Linux on their hardware. Macs do a good enough job with open source software while giving access to commercial software. OS X essentially killed widespread adoption of Linux on the desktop / laptop.

    • OS X essentially killed widespread adoption of Linux on the desktop / laptop.
      Perhaps for personal use, for enterprise us certainly not.

  • Apple makes lots of money from services.

    They have no interest in selling a few extra pieces of hardware if they won't derive any services revenue from the extra hardware.

    • They have no interest in selling a few extra pieces of hardware if they won't derive any services revenue from the extra hardware.
      And what service revenue would that be? The fact that I buy for $20 a year music from iTunes, where they "earn" $6 from? Seriously?

      • The money is in the 30% cuts of the App Store. That is the eventual goal, train all users to use apple App Store to buy all software and apple gets a cut of EVERYTHING. All your subscriptions, all your apps, all your hardware, all your payment transactions, all your statistics. EVERYTHING.

        Letting someone escape the ecosystem will hurt the bottom line. If they are not using OS X they might not buy an iPhone or iPad. If they can escape the App Store they won't feed money directly to apple.

        It's not great for u

  • That he left the Linux communauty all these years and he isn't aware for all the good product we now have like the Arm Laptop made by Pine64

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by caseih ( 160668 )

      The Pinebook Pro is a fine little laptop, but it would not meet Linus' needs. Especially if he's drooling over the M1!

      As for hardware specs, the Pinebook Pro is, well, a $300 laptop. It's not going to compare well to a $1500 dell or lenovo laptop. Linus runs a 32-core AMD threadripper desktop machine because he really needs that horsepower to build the kernel several times a day. What makes you think a Pinebook Pro would work for him?

      Let me know when the Pinebook Pro can boot stock Fedora from a generic

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Bert64 ( 520050 )

        Who's to say he needs to compile the kernel locally on his machine? Unless he's intending to travel frequently to places with limited/no internet access (not likely right now, and given his comments about sacrificing battery life it doesnt appear he intends to), there's no reason not to have a small, light and not hugely powerful laptop from which you can ssh to a powerful server.

        I have several powerful machines located in another room where i don't have to put up with the noise they make. And several more

  • 16GB (Score:5, Funny)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @10:41PM (#60763694)

    "16GB ought to be enough for anybody" --Linus Torvalds, 2020

  • Um... (Score:3)

    by laird ( 2705 ) <lairdp@gm a i l.com> on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @11:03PM (#60763746) Journal

    According to this https://forums.macrumors.com/t... [macrumors.com] you can boot ARM64 Ubuntu Linux on M1 just fine. Sure, it's in a lightweight VM (hypervisor) and not the host OS, but it's really running Ubuntu, native, not inside a CPU emulator, etc.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by iggymanz ( 596061 )

      Umm... you're clueless. Running this or that OS, in a hypervisor with only limited access to virtualized devices isn't what anyone wants in a personal laptop.

      • This virtualization on macos is for the webdev crowd; not your grandfather's Debian xfce desktop. :)

        i.e. drop to a terminal into an ARM64 Linux docker instance.

        • If I am paying $$$$ for an expensive workstation I want amazing support and reliability in virtual tools. Hyper-v, WSL, VMware esx and Workstation, and kvs/qemu/gnome boxes just work and are mature. The guest operating systems are also well supported with the hardware.

          Java based tools like Eclipse and Android Studio are not compatible. This is a terrible chip for Unix users and web developers at this time.

    • And Linus said that you can run Linux, it's the access to hardware like the GPU that concerns him.

    • Hypervisor? What kind of hypervisor as I was under the impression VMware parallels was the only one available. Is it a type 1 or type 2?

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