Can Tesla Build Cheaper Electric Cars With Advanced (and Cobalt-Free) Batteries? (forbes.com) 280
"One of the main reasons we're not all driving electric vehicles is the price," argues a transportation writer in Forbes — explaining how Tesla hopes to finally change that:
The company is placing a huge bet on rechargeable battery technology that doesn't use cobalt. This is one of the main elements making lithium ion batteries so expensive. It's also fraught with political issues, since the mining can be in conflict areas like the Congo, and its production is considered quite polluting of the environment. But cobalt is used because it enables the energy density required in batteries intended to last for hundreds of miles per charge. A couple of months ago, it was revealed that Tesla was working with CATL on lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries, and these could be the real gamechanger. LFP batteries don't use cobalt and have a roadmap to push well past the magical $100 per kWh (wholesale) that is considered the threshold for EVs being cheaper than Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicles...
Tesla has also recently patented technology for cathodes that significantly improves the number of charge cycles... The new Tesla technology, patented by the company's battery team led by Jeff Dahn, can increase charge cycles to nearly 4,000, which would be more like 75 years if charged once a week — hence the talk of million-mile batteries. More recently, the Tesla team headed by Jeff Dahn patented some new technology for lithium metal/anode free batteries, which could drastically improve energy density and thereby considerably reduce costs. These technologies, if they become commercially viable, could revolutionize battery durability and price, and there's another technology called all-polymer batteries on the horizon that is being developed by a former Nissan senior researcher, which he claims could cut 90% off the current price.
But these are improvements for the future that may not happen, and cobalt-free lithium iron phosphate batteries are here now. Tesla will be using LFP for the batteries in its Chinese Model 3, after receiving government approval to do so. It is estimated that using LFP batteries will allow a 15-20% reduction in manufacturing cost. Taking calculations regarding how much of a car's cost is batteries into account, this could make EVs a mere 10% more expensive than ICE instead of 30%, which will be easy to regain in cheaper running costs over a year or two of ownership. It will also give EVs an even greater lead over fuel-cell technology, making it even less likely that hydrogen will be the future of electric cars.
The time is fast approaching when EVs are not just more ecological and cheaper to run than ICE cars, but cheaper to buy too, and batteries free of cobalt are a key step in that direction. That's why Tesla's shift to LFP is so significant — it could be the final nail in the coffin for fossil fuel vehicles.
Tesla has also recently patented technology for cathodes that significantly improves the number of charge cycles... The new Tesla technology, patented by the company's battery team led by Jeff Dahn, can increase charge cycles to nearly 4,000, which would be more like 75 years if charged once a week — hence the talk of million-mile batteries. More recently, the Tesla team headed by Jeff Dahn patented some new technology for lithium metal/anode free batteries, which could drastically improve energy density and thereby considerably reduce costs. These technologies, if they become commercially viable, could revolutionize battery durability and price, and there's another technology called all-polymer batteries on the horizon that is being developed by a former Nissan senior researcher, which he claims could cut 90% off the current price.
But these are improvements for the future that may not happen, and cobalt-free lithium iron phosphate batteries are here now. Tesla will be using LFP for the batteries in its Chinese Model 3, after receiving government approval to do so. It is estimated that using LFP batteries will allow a 15-20% reduction in manufacturing cost. Taking calculations regarding how much of a car's cost is batteries into account, this could make EVs a mere 10% more expensive than ICE instead of 30%, which will be easy to regain in cheaper running costs over a year or two of ownership. It will also give EVs an even greater lead over fuel-cell technology, making it even less likely that hydrogen will be the future of electric cars.
The time is fast approaching when EVs are not just more ecological and cheaper to run than ICE cars, but cheaper to buy too, and batteries free of cobalt are a key step in that direction. That's why Tesla's shift to LFP is so significant — it could be the final nail in the coffin for fossil fuel vehicles.
Lithium Iron Phosphate in a Humber Vogue (Score:5, Interesting)
An associate of mine completed a DIY conversion of a classic British car, the Humber Vogue. It does indeed use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. You can read all about it here:
http://electricvogue.blogspot.... [blogspot.com]
Re:Lithium Iron Phosphate in a Humber Vogue (Score:5, Informative)
They're not using LFP because it's some "new superbattery". They're only used in their China factory, and only for the short-range vehicle (energy density in LFP still sucks compared to nickel-based chemistries, and will continue to, because it has a lower voltage, but most of the cell is otherwise identical except for the cathodes, so it's hard to come up with a big improvement that doesn't also help nickel-based chemistries). The simple fact is, the China factory is growing rapidly and must feed. It's consuming cells from local suppliers because that's all that's available. And LFP suffices well for the shorter-range Model 3 SR+.
Tesla's internal cell production line is an entirely different thing. Codenamed "Roadrunner", the new production line has been prototyped at Tesla's Kato Road facility, not far from their Fremont factory. Initially, we could only speculate on what they were doing based on Tesla's acquisitions and patent filings. They bought Maxwell for their non-solvent-based powder binders, to eliminate the costly and energy-hungry vacuum ovens. They appear to have stealthily acquired SilLion, which points to silicon-rich anodes. They patented a production system for making numerous cells at once and linking blocks of cells together with integrated flow channels, intumencent, and phase-change materials. They also patented "tabless" cells which have current flow from top to bottom rather than core to exterior. Things like this gave some clues, but not much.
More recently, however, we got a huge spate of clues [fremont.gov] from an environmental filing with the city of Fremont. Cathode chemistry is NCA and NMC - nothing new there. Not cobalt free. This could change in the future - Dahn's research for Tesla shows that cobalt probably ultimately isn't necessary in nickel-based chemistries - but it's there for now.
Note that if cobalt requirements are low enough, you can get them as a byproduct / impurity in the nickel sulfate. However, the materials section specifically mentions cobalt sulfate, so it's an input.
They appear to be making their own cathode and anode materials onsite in the Page building. It's difficult to see what they're planning with the anodes. I see nothing suggestive of finished anodes, graphite, amorphous carbon precursors, or anything containing silicon at all. The extreme conclusion would be that they're outright using metallic Li anodes, which would be a massive breakthrough. But it could just be that there's no hazardous chemicals being used in their manufacture in the Page building, and thus no reason to list them.
A vague "Electrolyte solution" is listed for the Kato building. But they do list one specific component: DMC. There's no mention of EC. The latter is important for creating a strong SEI on the anode, which protects it, but is also implicated in the formation of dendrites. EC could be gone, or it could just be part of the vague "electrolyte solution". Yet why mention DMC specifically? If EC is gone, they need a way to create a strong SEI, or otherwise prevent anode-electrolyte reactions.
There's one more really curious chemical: titanium butoxide. Titanium is not common in li-ion batteries. Titanium butoxide is sometimes used to produce anodes for a specific chemistry (lithium titanate). But these are really the opposite of what Tesla is seeking - yes, they have incredible stability and C rates, but very low energy density (in part due to low voltages), and correspondingly high prices.
However, I have encountered research which might possibly explain this: a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30662986/". It's possible to form a TiO2/lithium n-butoxide *artificial solid SEI* on the anode. This does not function as the intercalating medium (no impact to voltage), but rather...
replaces the SEI that one normally relies on EC to create. In the above paper, it's done for lithium metal anodes, but the
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Tesla has been on the verge of a revolutionary battery breakthrough for years.
Which is a large part of why their range keeps getting better and better, why their warranties on battery life have increased, and why Tesla's now have homes up in the arctic circle despite only 10 years ago the batteries having problems with cold.
Sorry what was your point again? That you have only looked at battery announcements and not at vehicle changes?
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Tesla's warranty is average. For exceptional Kia and Hyundai offer unlimited miles lifetime warranties in some markets.
Range is just increasing in line with reduced costs and density improvements at the same rate as the rest of the industry.
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As for charging points, I'll get one installed at home, along with a powerwall to go with my solar panels. The shops are 3km away so I don't exactly need a charge point there. In fact, I usually ride a bicycle to the shops anyway
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
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Even if the batteries were free, I do not think we'd "all" be driving EVs for a while, until the number of available and suitable vehicles rises, and the infrastructure is reliable enough for most people not to worry about it any more than they worry about gas.
This is truth, if you drive through any city in the evening, you'll see plenty of cars parked on the street because there aren't enough garages. In apartment complexes that do have parking available, the vast majority have no car chargers (or maybe a few token car chargers).
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Seriously? You don't have public chargers? In my country there are public chargers in many places. Just plug in, swipe a card and the car will be charged (and so will you credit card). Chargers are cheap and can be placed anywhere there's electricity. In my country (Netherlands) hardly anyone has a garage and if they do they usually use it as storage instead of parking.
The tax benefits make it relatively cheap to drive electric cars so many people do. Lot's of Tesla's around here.
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So, how many is "lots"? Tens of thousands? Thousands? Hundreds? You've seen two on the same day?
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I'd wager in the parent poster's country, the Netherlands, that car ownership is a lot smaller generally because of the country's excellent availability of alternative transit options -- bikes, scooters, trams, subways, buses and longer distance rail. Plus it's small and compact, so the distances involved are not very large.
I was surprised at how many cars there still were when I visited 2 years ago, but honestly, it's the kind of place where an electric golf cart would be a viable alternative and there we
Re:Is the battery a big part of the cost? (Score:5, Interesting)
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I mean probably the relatively low number of charging spaces in existing parking areas is the big expense of installing the charging infrastructure, from charging posts/pillars to the not insubstantial wiring required for high-current charging.
Most parking in the US is either outdoor paved asphalt/concrete or in nearly completely poured concrete structures and I can see where this makes for really high costs for retrofit. Even in new construction you'd be talking significant dollars per EV-enabled parking
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Wireless charging for cars is definitely going to start appearing soon. Patents have already been issued, and demonstration products are appearing.
It might take a while to reach commercial production, but could drastically change the way electric vehicles are used and perceived.
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Wireless charging can help in several ways.
Firstly, it should be possible to install chargers on roads, so vehicles are actually charged as they drive, and secondly, it makes static charging installation far less intrusive, and less subject to vandalism (apparently something of a problem). If there's no cable, you can't cut it, unplug it, drive into it, etc.
And of course it should be somewhat safer, and easier to use.
All good, really. The only questions remaining are its efficiency, and cost of installation
Re:Is the battery a big part of the cost? (Score:4, Insightful)
Firstly, wireless charging is less efficient, there are losses involved. Secondly, do you have any idea how much it would cost both in time and materials to install wires under all major roads? And thirdly do you have any idea how much power losses would be involved with this much wiring? I bet for every kWh you put into it you'd barely be able to get a single Wh back.
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Hmm. No
Wireless charging may be just OK for a phonr, but has extreme drawbacks for a car.
Galvanic contact Rulzzzzz.
Re: Is the battery a big part of the cost? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: number 3; when we got our Model 3 we stopped paying $150-200/mo for gas for my wife's commute, and the electric bill went up by $50-60 or so.
Yeah, the electric bill went up, but overall spend was much lower.
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You can patent anything you want. Wireless charging has incredible losses. It's not happening in our lifetimes.
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3 problems with wireless charging:
1) its less efficient, might not be a bvig deal with your phone, but if you're charging a car with a lot of current, that inefficieny make a noticeable dent in your electricity generation.
2) its very susceptible to location - you have to park right on the charging area, not mostly on it, not near it, not too far forward etc. Go look at a car park and see how many people can't even get between the white lines, or are at an angle. To make wireless charging work, you're expect
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Fortunately it's easy to add chargers to streets because they are already wired up for lighting. In fact the lamp posts are ideal for mounting the sockets on. The main issue is billing. One option is to just add it on to local taxes based on annual mileage that has to be recorded for other reasons anyway.
In Europe building regulations often require off-road parking for every dwelling, although often only one space and now many people have two cars. In Tokyo you aren't even allowed to buy a car unless you ca
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more of an issue there is the relative lack of lampposts, if EVs become popular, you'd have to install charger stations between lampposts like parking meters. Starts to get expensive putting all that street furniture out after a while, and that means the local authorities will simply get private companies to do it, who will charge extra to make their profit.
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Most of the expense is installing the wiring, the posts are not too bad. Eventually we will just have to get on and do it though, otherwise we will end up with lots of people locked out of cheaper and cleaner cars.
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Depends, in some places lamp posts are already used for other purposes beyond just lighting.
Assigned parking spaces are already mandatory on new builds in most parts of the UK, and chargers were mandatory until recently.
Another option is to just change the rules to make it easier for residences to install on-street charging with assigned bays. A lot of residents want assigned bays anyway because of general parking problems.
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I think all these complaints (and they are complaints) would magically evaporate if the cost of removing the CO2 produced by using gasoline was added to it's price.
Right now, there is no cost associated with polluting. Change that and you'll see how quickly people change their tune.
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Plantin trees is not enough (Score:2)
It does not work by planting trees only.
When you plant a tree, you initiate carbon capture for a few decades.
When you burn oil or natural gas, you relase CO2 that has been stored since 500 million years.
-> Planting trees only defers the problem, and only in the false assumption that there was no tree at this location before.
-> Planting trees to "offset CO2" is pure greewashing.
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Cool are you also going to ask the EV folks to pay taxes on all the carbon associated with generating costs for the electricity they use? To be really fair you should tax them for the expected line loss before the meter too
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Yes. This is why carbon taxes are a good idea, and all the gamified versions are not. That way you don't have to have silly arguments like this one.
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The most obvious reason is not enough EVs exist yet for the current number of drivers.
You make some valid points, this isn't one of them. This is based on a false premise. "Is the battery a big part of the cost?" - the thesis of your argument. Has nothing to do with whether or not there is an EV available for every living soul on the planet. If you want an EV right now, and you have the money, then yes you can certainly have one. There is in-fact one waiting for you.
Anything else?
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In a compact car 5k is 25% of the price, in the average car in the US (38k) 7,500 is 20% of the price.
these are a huge chunk of the cost of a car.
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Is the battery a major part of the cost of a new EV?
Yes.
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"Is the battery a major part of the cost of a new EV?
A quick search reveals they are $5000-7500 for a replacement,"
That's the price for one module, a Model S has 19 of them if I remember correctly.
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Simply math would then be 19 * $5,000 = $95,000 for the lower value, and 19 * $7,500 = $142,500 for the upper value.
The price of a basic Model S is $75,000, so that would mean Tesla was selling their premium model at a $25,000 or 21% loss. I'm thinking no.
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I think people really discount the major infrastructure problems that need to be solved as you mentioned. Aside from lack of charging stations, the grid will probably struggle after the workday ends and everyone plugs in. It would be like everyone having electric tankless water heaters and expecting the grid to survive everyone taking a shower in the morning. Grid capacitance needs to evolve. But these issues aren't new. It takes a generation or two for major technological transformations. Cars really weren't a thing until enough roads got built, for example. Until then, you needed to keep your horses fed and be on good terms with the local wheeler.
Imagine when Edison lit up that light bulb for the first time and prophesied that there would be electricity in every home. Must have been a bunch of dudes laughing to tears. Nikolai's tears were borne of sadness and defeat.
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Actually they were pretty annoyed [youtube.com].
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The electric light wasn't competing with candles, it was competing with gas lights. The advantages were pretty much the same as in cars: cheaper to maintain, less complexity to break, lasts longer, less dangerous, no need to leave the home to refuel.
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>> the grid will probably struggle after the workday ends and everyone plugs in.
Does not work like that.
EVs modulate charging to be ready at some point in the morning already now,
and also have plenty of capacity left to help the grid to time shift the load -> SW upgrade
Or even better, do actual storage with upcoming grid-managed V2G -> HW upgrade coming...
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and also have plenty of capacity left to help the grid to time shift the load -> SW upgrade
Right like I am going to use my limited charge cycle batter to 'help' the electric company, that is already charging me for transport/transmission "shift' the load" - Let me be the first to say "fuck that noise"
Re: Is the battery a big part of the cost? (Score:3)
The grid can handle EVs charging because the analysis is area under the curve = total energy and not peak power = number of power stations. The solution is to displace the peak load into the periods of low power demands. This is done by EVs using timers to start charging during the night using an off peak cheap tariff. Domestic houses can be fitted with batteries charged cheaply at night and the battery energy consumed by the house at peak times. With micro grids becoming a thing, it is likely that fewer po
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Oh No!
Big oil companies will lose all their profits.
Oh No,
Big grid companies will lose some of their profits.
Not supporting obsolete business models, and giving power to people is absoluttely not acceptable !!!!!!!!
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Right or you have to assume as a potential buyer there will be no-residual value when you are 'done' with the vehicle.
Tesla is almost great (Score:2)
They only need to upgrade the number of sensors and they'll be fine. They need side facing cameras on the front fenders just behind the headlight so that they can better detect forward cross traffic that may be obscured to the camera on the B-pillar. It would make autonomous turns safer. Once they have full self driving only a fool would drive anything else.
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Once they have full self driving only a fool would drive anything else.
LOL. I'm sure you probably even believe that.
Parity with ICE prices still isn't good enough (Score:4, Interesting)
It's been going on for awhile, but the average American can't afford the average new car [consumeraffairs.com]. This might sound hard to parse, but it just means the vast majority of new cars are being sold to the top income earners, while the rest of us try to talk the dealer down on a leftover entry-level car from the previous model year, or snag a deal on something from the used lot.
EVs need to get significantly cheaper before they'll ever replace most of the vehicles on the road, if for no other reason than that most of the vehicles (the average age of a car in the USA is close to 12 years old [usatoday.com]) are owned by folks who simply cannot afford to buy something new. While there's a lot of talk about improvements in battery charge cycles, it still remains to be seen if EVs will truly have the longevity to make it onto those used car lots, or if the prospect of needing a $7.5k+ battery replacement will mean many of them will simply end up scrapped.
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the vast majority of new cars are being sold to the top income earners
Businesses, really.
while the rest of us try to talk the dealer down on a leftover entry-level car from the previous model year
So they are trying to buy new cars, then, just old stock.
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Good post.
I am interested in how the hydrogen fuel cells fit into this. Although less on hydrogen itself, and more alternative fuel cells. I think the subtle advantage is with it's fuel density making energy capacity a non-issue, that removes need for regenerative braking and related electronics which increases cost of battery EVs (both having electric motors). That's one less system that needs maintenance, and could be more amenable to extended life-cycle i.e. used car market. As to why I'm not interested
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EVs need to get significantly cheaper
They really don't. You see the average American as you rightfully said still buys a car, and trickle down economics is still a thing.
Now EVs need to get significantly cheaper if you expect them to replace ICE cars even faster than the average new replacement value of a car. I'll give you that.
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A 20% cheaper battery won't even put them on par with other EVs.
The cheapest Model 3 available here is about £40k. For 30k you can get a similar range Leaf. Obviously the battery is only a fraction of the cost of the car so 20% won't bring parity.
In fact other battery manufacturers are already 15-20% cheaper than Tesla because they use pouch cells.
The only down side of pouch cells is that you can't charge them as aggressively, say max 100kW instead of 200kW. For affordable cars that doesn't matt
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I think this works differently in various price brackets.
The Model 3 is price competitive with BMW 3 or Audi A4 ICEs. The Leaf is cheaper because it's a slow econobox.
On the other hand smaller EVs like the Seat Mii is still like £20k, or almost twice as much as the ICE version and even more compared to slightly used ones which is what most people can buy. Here a cheaper battery could make a huge difference.
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The Leaf 62 isn't slow, it's actually pretty nippy. Not a performance car I'll grant you but not slow or an econobox by any means.
The affordable end of the market is really taking off now, e.g. the Leaf 40, MG ZS EV and some models of Zoe are all around £22k. For most people those are ideal, can do most single day trips without charging and for longer trips the charging/driving ratio is very good and it's not worth spending an extra £20k to save a small amount of time.
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There's no need to get used cars off the road (except the worst of them). Used cars are green in their own way because they're avoiding the need to manufacture a new car and the emissions and pollution involved in that. Let's just turn new cars into electrics that last for 50+ years and declare victory.
Shelf life of battery (Score:2)
Any evidence of a battery having a shelf life approaching 50 years?
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Only about one third of a vehicle's lifetime energy cost comes in production. The average age of a vehicle in the USA is now about 11 years (an all-time high.) Your vehicle has to do an outstanding number of miles before you save energy by not buying another vehicle. I currently drive a 1982 300SD, which gets about 30 MPG freeway in the best case. Described as the most expensive economy car of all time, it represents a best case for an older, full-sized vehicle. Because it's been on the road so long, and ha
Re: Parity with ICE prices still isn't good enough (Score:2)
In the UK, Octopus Energy have a "Go" tariff of 5p per kWh for the hours 00:30 to 04:30. At a EV "MPG" consumption rate of 4 miles per kWh, 100 miles needs 100/4 = 25kWh. Cost = 25 x 0.05 = £1.25. This is very cheap considering petrol (gasoline) costs £1.15 per litre which gets you about 6 miles in an ICE car.
Re: Parity with ICE prices still isn't good enough (Score:4, Interesting)
Why stop there? You're not done with your math:
100 miles / 6 miles per litres = 16.667 x £1.15 per litre = £19.17.
So:
EV = £1.25 per 100 miles.
ICE = £19.17 per 100 miles.
Basically, EV is already 15.336 times cheaper than ICE to run.
Add the higher maintenance costs of ICE vs EV and it's even worst for ICE.
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Why stop there? You're not done with your math: 100 miles / 6 miles per litres = 16.667 x £1.15 per litre = £19.17.
So: EV = £1.25 per 100 miles. ICE = £19.17 per 100 miles.
Go just a little further:
Assume that you drive the car 15,000 miles per year, you're spending annuall:
EV: £187.50
ICEV: £2875.50
That's an annual fuel savings of £2688, or £224 per month. If the difference in monthly payments between ICEV and EV is less than that, then the EV saves you money from day one (well, for completeness, you should also estimate the reduced maintenance costs of the EV, and the likely-higher insurance costs of the EV, due to higher sticker property value
Energy density of the Phosphate's (Score:2)
Lithum-Phosphate's have many great advantages over the Lithium-Cobalt's but historically they're half the energy storage density! They've been used as a cleaner, lighter and smaller replacement for deep-cycle Lead-Acid's in many places. There they have a good energy density advantage.
I didn't see mention of Tesla overcoming the energy density vs Cobalt issue. Maybe they intend to trade off a big chunk of charge range in some models.
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LFP batteries not cheap (Score:2)
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they haven't come down AT ALL in price, they cost the same today as they did 10 years ago
The reason "conventional" lithium batteries have become so cheap has very little to do with advancing technology, and almost everything to do with economies of scale and infrastructure.
Batteries are cheap because demand has gone up. As demand rose, it become economical to build massive factories, where you can basically control the whole process. One huge factory is very plainly cheaper than running a smaller assmebly plant that buys intermediate products, who buy other intermediates, all of whom charge
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https://thedriven.io/2020/02/26/new-tesla-battery-a-combination-of-dry-cell-and-supercapacitor/
I like it the way ... (Score:2)
... German car manufacturers have been asleep at the wheel when it comes to electric and autonomous cars and now Tesla is coming to Germany and building a huge factory here to show us how it's done. At least VW got the message but I'm afraid they're too late and they don't really understand IT/Software, like many other German companies.
Re: I like it the way ... (Score:2)
Also Tesla has desimated the German car sales in the US. I fear that the writing is on the wall for the German car manufacturers.
What made me laugh was VW and Ford in the US trying to collaborate on building EVs.
Re:Hah (Score:5, Funny)
Let me know when I can drive 800 miles every weekend while pulling a double-wide trailer.
Should we just come back to this tread and make a post? Or do you want to give out a phone number?
Re:Hah (Score:4, Insightful)
The question to be asked, surely, is - is this really necessary? It does seem rather excessive - and I live in Australia, not Europe!
Re:Hah (Score:4, Funny)
The question to be asked, surely, is - is this really necessary? It does seem rather excessive - and I live in Australia, not Europe!
Of course it is necessary. No one can function without a 1000mile* range while pulling a triple* wide trailer.
*Numbers updated because I'm worried the other bar is too low and I may suddenly run out of stupid excuses to keep buying an ICE car.
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It's harder to coal roll someone in an electric car.
That excuse should still work for a while yet.
Yeah but coal-rolling is childish. You want to really mess someone up, squirt paint at them. Then they need actually pull over and clean the car rather than just slowly die a slightly earlier PM2.5 sponsored death 40 years later.
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It's harder to coal roll someone in an electric car.
That excuse should still work for a while yet.
Yeah but coal-rolling is childish. You want to really mess someone up, squirt paint at them. Then they need actually pull over and clean the car rather than just slowly die a slightly earlier PM2.5 sponsored death 40 years later.
Or, in the case of someone rolling coal at me in my Tesla... just needing to replace the HEPA air filter slightly sooner. It's only happened to me once, but if it weren't for the visual I wouldn't even have known the asshole did it.
Aside: I can't really imagine why someone would even want to install a smoke switch. I own a diesel pickup and there's no way I'd want to do that. Screw up the emissions subsystem and you could end up with a big bill to get it back to the point where it can pass emissions testi
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It's harder to coal roll someone in an electric car.
That excuse should still work for a while yet.
Puncture the battery and make them choke on the fumes from the resultant fire? Instead of rolling coal, you can call it zoom and fume (and then likely boom)
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Its funny because you endanger other peoples lives by cutting down their driving visibility, and can cause them to have a hard time breathing, at the same time you burn extra fuel just for the joke!
I can't wait for these electric trucks to come out. So you can just zoom by them and leave them in the dust.
Re: Hah (Score:2)
Because lord knows you never see an ICE car missing a bumper.....
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800?
I demand 1000, glubdammit! Now get off my lawn.
Re:Hah (Score:5, Funny)
1000 miles? That's just a number in an imaginary measurement system!
We demand 1609.34 kilometers!
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Thanks to the History Channel, I know that Ancient Aliens built the pyramids, so in essence the Egyptian Royal Foot is an alien measurement system.
Re: Hah (Score:4, Interesting)
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Let me know when my town of 100,000 people has more than 12 charging slots in it.
Yes, 12. No, not 12 stations. 12 literal plugs. Many of them nothing more than a 3KW ordinary 220v household lead (i.e. slow-charge), in the middle of a town car park, and often miles away from housing.
Sorry, but most people can't install a charger in or near their house (flats, rented accommodation, insufficient power capacity, etc.), and won't want to be caught short if they do spend a fortune on a battery car.
P.S. I live
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Hah (Score:4, Insightful)
This doesn't seem like a terribly difficult problem, honestly. Charging stations are simpler and cheaper than fuel stations, and don't require nearly as much ongoing upkeep. When there's sufficient demand, it wouldn't even be that hard to install a bunch curbside in residential areas.
Re:Hah (Score:4, Informative)
Let me know when my town of 100,000 people has more than 12 charging slots in it.
If you live in America, your town already has way more than 12. You just don't know how to find them.
Places with chargers in my town: Costco, Target, Walmart, Safeway, the hospital, the community college, the high school, several parking garages, a few restaurants, the civic center, the rec center, etc. Many businesses also have charging ports in the parking lots and they are often accessible by the general public if you have an account with the provider (such as Blink, GreenLots, etc).
Of course, you can also charge at any 110v or 220v outlet. Your town has millions of those.
I do 99% of my charging using the 30A 220v outlet in my garage.
Re:Hah (Score:4, Interesting)
When I got my first EV some 6-7 years ago (Nissan Leaf), I charged it nearly exclusively on a 120V 20A wall charger. Yeah, it took all night, but it was a commuter car - There And Back Again every day. Of course, I had a garage with a door, so no one would randomly disconnect my car.
EV cars are NOT for everyone, even if they are priced that way. Don't whine that they don't make sense for anyone because they don't make sense for you.
Re: (Score:3)
How do you find them then?
I tried looking here: https://www.plugshare.com/ [plugshare.com] but it only finds 2 spots with 1 plug each in a city of 31,000 people (West Bend, WI). And they are only available during business hours.
And I live in an apartment so there is no way I can get a 110v or anything way out to the parking lot.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: Hah (Score:4, Informative)
Oh bollocks. What town in Greater London has only 12 chargers?? What towns even exist in Greater London? Lots of other people here also live in London including me. Your claims seem complete bollocks to me.
Yes yu can. (Score:2)
You can right now.
But probably you shouldn't. It's not really good for your health.
Re: (Score:3)
"Let me know when I can drive 800 miles every weekend while pulling a double-wide trailer."
A Tesla doesn't have the room for your trucknuts.
Re:Hah (Score:4, Interesting)
Let me know when I can drive 800 miles every weekend while pulling a double-wide trailer.
Hook up another trailer with spare batteries and an extension cord?
Honestly, not sure why something like that isn't an option: one of the big arguments people make against EVs is that they can't make their 3-4 time a year 500-800 mile roadtrip. So why not develop a trailer-based battery pack to give people the extra mileage boost they need on those rare occurrences? Even if it's a couple hundred dollars to rent you would still come out ahead for the year compared to an ICE vehicle.
Re: (Score:3)
That's actually a pretty brilliant idea. Build the batteries into the bed and have it also useful for hauling bikes, kayaks, whatever as well.
Re:Hah (Score:4, Informative)
Do you really do that every weekend?
Do you drive 400 miles straight and back without ever stopping, for food, or to use the bathroom? When you reach your destination do you just turn around and go back?
The current 300 mile range isn't too bad, consider that you learn new long term travel habits, and for many people they already have their habets.
They drive 3-4 hours take an hour break and continue on. With an Electric Car, while you are on your break, you are charging your car up.
This changes on how we expect our infrastructure to be laid out. With our ICE model. We have Gas Stations with Quick Shops, We go for the Gas and then perhaps pickup some stuff. The electric model you go to a restaurant where they have a charger so while you are eating your car is getting charged.
While going on long drives with my current ICE car, I may need to Gas up, then I go an other 5-20 miles to a restaurant where I can have a good meal.
Our normal driving behavior, the commute to work. We will often Gas up once or twice a week, and pickup something probably unhealthy for us to snack on. In that case the Commute with electric is much easier. As you charge your car at home every night so it is like topping off your tank every day.
Re: (Score:3)
The major problem that limits full adoption of EV is probably NOT cost ( although that can certainly help. ) Still there are plenty of cars out there in the price range it is just the upper end.
https://www.caranddriver.com/r... [caranddriver.com].
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
The 3 major reasons I don't own a EV
I can't use an ev when it is not changed , I can't make trips to visit family ( who live 4 or 8 hours away) withing long changing. They really need to get to the point where the cars can charge on to full on a timescale of minutes not hours. ( There are multiple ways, battery swap, capacitors etc.) .
The second reason is maintenance, I can do 20% of the routine maintenance on my cars my self 80% of all maintenance if I make the time and and motivated.
There is ample information on you tube and parts are available on the street corner. No so with EV's. if you are HIGHLY motivated and willing to shell out a substantial amount of money , you MIGHT be able to repair one of these cars.
Third is longevity. I don't ever buy a car that is less then 5 or 10 year old they cost more then I can easily afford for a payment, if you do some investigation before you buy there is no reason a ICE shouldn't run you well over 200K miles.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/1204... [nbcnews.com]
https://getelectricvehicle.com... [getelectricvehicle.com].
As far as maintenance goes, there's (theoretically) far less maintenance on an EV. Fewer moving parts, much less to wear out. That's assuming, of course, that the vehicle was well built in the first place...