Ask Slashdot: Is There A Laptop That Uses Rechargeable 18650 Cell Batteries? 95
"Present laptop dying, battery of course," writes long-time Slashdot reader ClarkMills.
It uses proprietary pouch Lithium cells. Wouldn't it be great to just swap in a new set of 18650s? Okay, it may not be a thin laptop but it would save me from turfing a perfectly good laptop otherwise...
The original submission drew some interesting comments -- including one from long-time Slashdot reader thegreatbob suggesting a used laptop might be the only option. "This seems to be due to the notion that 'thinner!' and 'lighter!' are more important than 'doesn't periodically turn into an incendiary pillow!' "
But are there other options? Share your own thoughts in the comments.
Is there a laptop that uses rechargeable 18650 cell batteries?
The original submission drew some interesting comments -- including one from long-time Slashdot reader thegreatbob suggesting a used laptop might be the only option. "This seems to be due to the notion that 'thinner!' and 'lighter!' are more important than 'doesn't periodically turn into an incendiary pillow!' "
But are there other options? Share your own thoughts in the comments.
Is there a laptop that uses rechargeable 18650 cell batteries?
Get new and Repurpose old (Score:5, Insightful)
Just get a new laptop and turn the old one into a permanently-corded headless unit or a base unit 'docked' to desktop peripherals. Safer than trying to rig some batteries that weren't designed for the form factor, and likely to result in a more satisfying experience in the short and long term.
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I have read creimer.
YOU don't know nothing about creimer.
Okay, that was the short version. It expands into something like this:
As anyone who has read somewhat of the body of creimer's messaging on slashdot will tell you, creimer is the ultimate authority on creimer. And creimer would say that no one else among the millions of readers of slashdot is better qualified to speak about how fantastically knowledgeable and authoritative creimer is on the current subject. No matter what the current subject might
Nonreplaceable batteries should be outlawed (Score:3)
Just get a new laptop and turn the old one into a permanently-corded headless unit or a base unit 'docked' to desktop peripherals. Safer than trying to rig some batteries that weren't designed for the form factor, and likely to result in a more satisfying experience in the short and long term.
May not be a viable option on two counts. (1) Maybe the battery pack can't be removed, and (2) The computer may be unable to boot without the battery pack.
There was actually a period with the worst of both worlds, but all of the newer notebook computers I've had were able to boot without the battery installed.
On the problems with built-in batteries I have two recent experiences to share:
(1) Macbook Pro. Started swelling after a couple of years. I was happy that Apple generously replaced it under warranty. T
Re:Nonreplaceable batteries should be outlawed (Score:4, Informative)
There are certainly cases where the laptop won't boot if the battery is too discharged (or presumably missing). If the battery voltage gets too low it might decide that it's unsafe to charge it (like https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]) which makes sense, but also refuse to turn on (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]). So you're stuck unless your replace or manually charge the battery. I don't know why that would be ever the case but it certainly happens and cold be the case with the OP's machine.
Anyway. The idea with 18650 is dumb because it's going to be a huge hack to get them to work and even an external powerbank will be pretty inconvenient. What I'd suggest is just buying a new battery off ebay or aliexpress. Yes you can get pouch batteries, though availability varies of course depending on the specs or how obscure the model is. But just for example: https://www.aliexpress.com/who... [aliexpress.com]
They're almost certainly not going to be as good as the OEM battery even if they claim to be 100% original, but they'll get the laptop usable again.
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Plus a laptop or smartphone has some pretty sophisticated heuristics for improving battery lifespan and controlling rate of charge
This is not at all true. It is a simple tradeoff between charging higher/discharging lower, or not doing so.
It is true in an electric car, because they charge using a much higher current. In a laptop, the current is limited to amounts that are safe for the plugs and cords. It isn't to a level where there is any benefit from charger sophistication. Instead, the charger simply is in constant-current mode until it hits the voltage limit, then switches to constant-voltage mode until the current hits a minimum,
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There are certainly cases where the laptop won't boot if the battery is too discharged (or presumably missing).
Used supercaps to replace the batteries in a smart speaker. It is always connected to power so the limited charge (~5 seconds if I remove it from power) is not a problem. But at least it now turns on...
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It isn't that hard to manually charge and wake up sleeping lithium batteries, if you can't do that using a bench power supply then turn in your nerd card.
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Old smartphones make great little control panels / remotes for a smart home setup, but the aging batteries are a constant worry, especially for the units left plugged in 24/7.
In a smart phone there is a single lithium cell, you can replace it with any lithium cell, just solder or spot weld on some leads and a custom plug, and tape the battery to the back.
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Reminds me of another one of those unavailable products I wish someone were making, though the easy version is still limited to phones and computers with replaceable battery packs. With reference to the case of devices that can only run with the battery in place, it would be a battery faker. Just the minimum amount of electronics to pretend that there's a working battery there.
I actually shopped around to see if any of the (semi-local) local smartphone repair places could do this by hotwiring a smartphone,
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The other issue is reduced performance without a battery, or with a dead battery. Some laptops *cough Macbooks cough* come with an undersized charger that can't provide enough power for the laptop at full load, so when it is under stress it draws power from the battery too. If the battery isn't there you get reduced performance.
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Not clear if you think that's a bad thing but I'll come out and say it. Most of the time the "reduced performance" you speak of is beneath my notice. If I have to wait, then it means I have to wait a bit longer, but most of the time the waiting times are below my notice. And almost all of the significant wait times are due to network delays, near as I can tell.
recelling 18650 based units.. (Score:3)
recelling laptop batteries isn't really that complicated at all.
but you can just buy less crappier pillow style cells and use them too.
as for "not designed for them" .. if it's same chemistry it doesn't matter. none of the current lenovos batteries for example were "designed for it" any more than that.
I don't think any laptops on the market are designed to accept swappable 18650's - the problem comes from balancing them really. for it to work well you would need to keep them in batches of parallel and seri
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You're flatly wrong, so don't try to `splain it to us, maaaaaaaaaan.
There is no "undervoltage suicide," you simply didn't learn what the next step is to wake them back up.
Don't be a maroon.
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I don't think any laptops on the market are designed to accept swappable 18650's - the problem comes from balancing them really. for it to work well you would need to keep them in batches of parallel and serial packs.. laptop batteries typically have sets of lipo cells which are in parallel and those sets are then in series.
Balancing isn't really an issue. The housing could take care of that part just like the housing does for AA batteries. It would be easy enough to create a drop in replacement for most larger removable battery packs. The problem is there is little demand. A battery usually lasts about 3 years so you are selling to a crowd with 3 year old laptops. Cheap generic batteries for all major laptops are readily available and will get you another couple years at which point the laptop is obsolete so it's cheape
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Balancing is actually a huge issue. Major problem.
The reason is that it is still desirable to let the laptop charge the batteries. If you were only charging them outside the pack, individually, then balancing wouldn't matter. But if you unbalance the cells, then draw down the power, then charge by applying the regular charge current to the pack, because the cells have a different voltage, the charge current isn't spread out correctly, and the charge voltage across a single cell can fall outside of nominal p
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+1
I work with Lithiums for a living and this if the first sane post I have read.
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recelling laptop batteries isn't really that complicated at all.
The last two packs I ripped apart were either glued or sonic welded together. Tell me again about how that doesn't make the situation complicated.
I don't think any laptops on the market are designed to accept swappable 18650's - the problem comes from balancing them really.
No, it certainly does not. If you gave separate contacts for each cell, that would be a non-problem. The problem comes from the fact that the battery pack case is essentially part of the laptop case, which lets you make the laptop case smaller and lighter.
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I don't think any laptops on the market are designed to accept swappable 18650's - the problem comes from balancing them really.
No, it certainly does not. If you gave separate contacts for each cell, that would be a non-problem.
It is such a bizarre thing to say, like don't you expect there to be a bunch of people here with an engineering background who have already gone into the weeds on this? You're just gonna pull it straight out of your ass without even a few minutes of googling first?
You don't know why it would be a problem, OK, but that's a lot different than knowing it isn't a problem. You clearly don't know. Why do you feel such a strong desire to make yourself into a public fool by pulling an answer out of your ass?
NASA di
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If you gave separate contacts for each cell, that would be a non-problem.
You don't know why it would be a problem, OK, but that's a lot different than knowing it isn't a problem. You clearly don't know. Why do you feel such a strong desire to make yourself into a public fool by pulling an answer out of your ass?
Congratulations, you just failed spectacularly. If each battery has its own contacts, you can use BMS even though you are using separate cells. I already know about BMS, I've torn down packs, I know what's in there. What a dumbshit you are.
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Just get a new laptop and turn the old one into a permanently-corded
This may work for some laptops but certainly not for all.
From own experience - a HP laptop did actually boot without battery pack, but... The CPU load stayed at a near 100% under the installed windows. Inspection learned 'system interrupts' were taking over 90% of CPU cycles. Probably it kept polling the batteries, or a warning battery low was interrupting the CPU constantly. Ubuntu Linux did a lot better but there still was a performance issue, and the thing would get pretty hot even when just idling.
Since
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If you're handy with a soldering iron and have a bunch of spare cells, you probably could replace them but it's not really worth the time, and soldering leads directly on Li-ion batteries is doable (if you sand, use flux and solder to a 'corner') but tricky and not something i would want to do with someone else's laptop simply because of liability issues.
This is so ill-advised I'd be more worried about dying in the house fire than where the bill goes since I'm dead.
A battery spot welder is about $100 for a cheap one, $200 for a good one. If you're serious enough about DIY to spend the time rebuilding the battery pack, either buy the spot welder, or build your own out of a discarded microwave oven. (seriously)
It doesn't matter how good you are at soldering, the solder iron doesn't put out enough heat to get the job done fast enough not to damage the cells. I
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FWIW I've got an old HP laptop (Pavilion dv2000, still running Windows XP) for this purpose, it's my 'entertainment' box, basically just runs VLC and Winamp, plugged into my TV and amp for shows/movies and music, Ethernet connection to a networked drive for video and audio.
Wireless mouse for clicking around, and conveniently came with a little entertainment remote too. No idea if it'd run without the battery attached, but it's certainly dead. No CPU drain tho, thankfully!
Seems like a little tank, chugs alon
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The dv2/6/9000 series was an okay system if you didn't get one with nVidia in it. The GPUs would deball quite often. Also the dv9000 had faulty hinges. I was one of the primary repair engineers for that recall.
Most older laptops did exactly this (Score:2)
Yeah they are 18650s in a plastic case "rebuild" (Score:3)
To be more clear, it doesn't LOOK like they take 18650 cells, because the cells are conveniently packaged together in a custom plastic holder.
You can "just pop open the plastic and swap out the old cells for new ones", EXCEPT the details on how to do that involve important safety issues.
There are people who know how to do it properly who can do it for you. You can Google "rebuild laptop batteries" and maybe check Google maps for shops nearby. Key phrases as "rebuilt laptop battery" and "rebuild laptop bat
Re:Most older laptops did exactly this (Score:5, Interesting)
I still own and use laptops (Dell Precision and Latitude) that use 18650 cells.
I think what he was wanting is a battery pack that allowed users to replace bad cells themselves without soldering.
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Indeed, this is something I've always wondered about - we've had standard form factors for desktops for ages. Practically since The Beginning.
But I've never seen clone type laptops, with parts compatibility (other than RAM) for things like CD/DVD drives (or floppy), batteries, etc. The closest to "standard" stuff is all external and connects via standardized connectors - PCMCIA, USB, etc.
But a generic form factor workhorse laptop, with standardized "bays" for batteries, hard drives, CD/DVD drives, etc wou
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Re:Most older laptops did exactly this (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Most older laptops did exactly this (Score:5, Insightful)
Power delivery 3.0 (Score:2)
I cant believe that the USB spec does not allow a device to find out what status of the battery but apparently thats the case...
someone should get on that a percentage would be enough !
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Well that's the problem with using the powerbanks for phones as well, they'll think they're connected to AC power and go wild. It's not as bad as a decent powerbank is still big enough for a phone while it might be an issue for a laptop.
Now with this USB-C everywhere which is anything BUT straightforward and "auto-magically works" there's the second problem that when you connect two devices that both can charge and be charged via a symmetrical connection (you HAVE to use a real USB-C-USB-C cable to access t
Somewhat okay solution (Score:5, Interesting)
What I did to power my laptop is buy a cheap 18500 housing and a 10.4-14.4 volt variable input inverter. That variance is the famously safe range for car alternators so they're everywhere. I just double sided taped the battery pack to the small inverter and it's barely bigger than a large power adapter brick. Then I can run the laptop off it for about 18 hours. The battery life is literally longer than I'd stay awake in a day but I did wire in a switch and a tiny LCD voltmeter so I know about what the remaining charge is.
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Not really, the chemistry between LiPo (the "pouch" cells) and Li-Ion is identical - it's just that Li-Ion are cells which consist of two plates a plastic ion exchange layer and a separator wound into a circular bundle, while a LiPo cell has the plates separate by same but embedded in a polymer matrix that allows for cells that are rectangular prismatic rather than
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the chemistry between LiPo (the "pouch" cells) and Li-Ion is identical
Chemistry varies between brands and product lines, in sometimes profound ways. For instance, some li-ion chemistries have to be "baked" and some don't. So your blanket statement is blanket wrong. The rest of your comment was good, though.
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Many laptops do use 18650 cells in a plastic shell (the battery).
You can crack them open and replace the cells. Be careful. This is quite common with ThinkPads, for example.
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My Thinkpad has dual batteries, the removable one is like a Beluga whale sticking out the bottom... it sticks out the bottom exactly two 18500 widths, (38mm = 18 x 2 + 2mm plastic and spacing) with the corner rounded to the radius of an 18500.
The bulge length is just over 200mm, so 18500 probably.
The internal battery is pouches and would be an incredible PITA.
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What I did to power my laptop is buy a cheap 18500 housing and a 10.4-14.4 volt variable input inverter. That variance is the famously safe range for car alternators so they're everywhere.
Safe alternator output is 1.5-2 volts above battery voltage, to a maximum of 14.7v. I guess it's true what they say, mister slashmydots. Clearly fame isn't everything.
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BUT, the problem is that most laptop batteries run at some funny voltage that isn't a multiple of 3.7 volts, which is the voltage of 18500 cells.
Right, so this is very confusing to be sure. The terminology is one of the biggest hurdles, because it sounds like something really specific, but it isn't.
3.7 is the "nominal" voltage, but it isn't the voltage of the charged cell, it is just a norminal average. But that average actually changes depending on decisions you make about power vs lifespan. You can list the same cell as 3.6 and it means the same thing as 3.7. It looks like a precise number, but really it is a label that means "a single cell of thi
Depends on the model? (Score:2)
Re: Depends on the model? (Score:2)
Apple - and they even serial number match the batteries to make them non-replaceable.
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Dell has earned a lot of respect over recent years in the laptop department, even though I was never a big fan of their desktops (yes, they had some nice cases that made service faster in a business environment). They've been building computers to do work first, and to do it well. And when they sell me a "pro" laptop, I can expect that it will live up to what I expect of a mobile workstation.
They're boring, and they're not classy, but they are dead simple to upgrade and repair. When my concern is getting w
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I will second all of this, and completely agree. Used to be a Macbook Pro user up until about 2014 but felt more and more like their products just started to lean more on the side of appearance than functionality. I don't care how my laptop looks so much; I just want it to be functional!
And to your point of repair-ability... I was actually pretty surprised when I had to replace a battery on my XPS 13 2-in-1. I always buy the extended warranties on my mobile devices (I have both a mobile and a desktop for di
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Replacing a battery in a MacBook Air from 2014 takes about 10 minutes, no idea about a new model, though.
Re: Depends on the model? (Score:5, Informative)
You can replace Apple batteries. If it's older than 2015 or so it's pretty easy to replace the battery yourself. If it's newer, you can still do it. Or pay Apple to do it for you.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/M... [ifixit.com]
https://support.apple.com/en-c... [apple.com]
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Probably because you're using the wrong search terms. It's an integrated piece referred to as a "palm rest".
Not knowing what model of XPS you have I can't give you specific links but this should help; https://www.ebay.com/b/Laptop-... [ebay.com]
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Yeah... and PS: You can get, from Dell, literally every single component that comprises your laptop. There may or may not be any 3rd party alternatives for the custom built components but they are all available.
The OC about Apple having better part availability made me chuckle...
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I'm confused- serial number of the cells? You mean a pack, right? I don't think you can have a serial number in a battery cell. There's no circuitry to generate a data stream in a cell. A pack can.
I thought OP wanted to replace just cells? If I'm right so far, there are some great websites selling lithium cells in an amazing array of shapes and sizes.
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Well, the pack in that case, but the pack is smart enough to discover that the cells have been replaced.
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Okay, that's a possibility. I've taken a few packs apart, and several phones including a couple of iPhones, and I haven't seen anything that would sense and electronically report such a thing. But it's possible. I don't do a lot of this kind of tinkering, nor read lots about it, but I'm sure the very clever aftermarket people would figure out a workaround.
Reminds me of when the inkjet printer makers tried to stop people from refilling their cartridges, and all the very clever ways people came up with to
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I never heard about an Apple Laptop where you can not replace the battery.
You have any examples? Perhaps they are not "user replaceable" ... but most certainly you can replace them.
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I know, right? My laptop has a beluga whale sticking out of the back. It isn't really that hard to click "buy" unless you're a Fruithead and can't talk Steve Jobs Ghost into letting you have it. Sand in, sand out, or whatever it was.
But that said, lithium pouch cells aren't really that proprietary, you can replace them with ones of similar dimensions and they will tend to have a similar C-rating and everything works fine. Capacity goes up or down depending on quality.
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My Thinkpad has two batteries, the internal one is pouches that are spot welded in. You "could" replace them. If you're good enough.
But you might be better off replacing the removable battery, and just disconnecting the internal one at that point.
OK Boomer (Score:2)
1st world problems..... if you want to cherish your 10 year old laptop, be prepared to get your toolbox.
Replacing the ithium pouches is just as easy and for a few bucks you get a completely build battery.
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1st world problems.....
That's true, anybody who grows up in a third world e-waste dump already knows this shit. They also know how fast to step back when the pouch starts to inflate.
Mil grade stuff. (Score:3)
Last time I checked, military grade laptops use bars that are just 18650s in a wrapper. Then again, that stuff is heavy, bulky, out of date and overpriced.
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...that stuff is heavy, bulky, out of date and overpriced.
Well, that makes it military grade alright.
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If you want a similar result at home, just pot it in marine epoxy.
But remember when you mix the epoxy to pay special care to the heat curves during curing, and choose an appropriate ratio of parts so as not to damage the cells.
External battery pack (Score:3)
Assuming the laptop has a USB3 Type C power port, just remove the failing battery and buy a USB3 Type C battery pack that can handle the laptop's power draw.
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Assuming the laptop has a USB3 Type C power port, just remove the failing battery and buy a USB3 Type C battery pack that can handle the laptop's power draw.
Many laptops refuse to function if no battery is attached, presumably because peak power draw is greater than the peak power delivery of the power supply.
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Try soldering a capacitor across the battery leads.
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If you always and exclusively use the same OS power management settings when plugged in or on battery, then that works fine.
Last gen HP use those. (Score:2)
18650 Cell Batteries (Score:2, Funny)
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That makes a lot, no?
"16,384 cells ought to be enough for anyone."
Matching cells might be a problem (Score:2)
If the cells are not matched (same internal resistance Which varies with age, manufacturer and degree of discharge) then it can result in uneven heating or failure during charge or discharge. You need some easy to keep the cells balanced
here is a good project, (Score:2)
https://images.app.goo.gl/d2AN... [app.goo.gl]
My laptop`s battery last since 2011 like new (Score:1)
Not common... (Score:5, Informative)
I've been servicing Dell Latitude laptops for about eight years. Our old, old E5400 units through our 5440's used banks of 18650's. But five years ago, starting with the 3x50 and 5x50 line, they changed to LiPo batteries. Customers want slim, and LiPo promised that. Also, it offered greater power density, so you could make a smaller mass battery, freeing up more space. I haven't seen an 18650 in the Latitude line now for five years. And while I haven't bought them, it's been a similar case for HP's ProBook and EliteBook lineup.
Can you swap out a LiPo battery for a bank of 18650's? No, I don't think you can. Every battery has a charging circuit built into the housing. Lithium batteries require variations to the voltage delivered to the dells, depending on how depleted they are. This has to be measured, regulated, and negotiated with the mainboard's charging circuits. So, unless you are extremely advanced with electronics and know how to build your own charging circuit, I don't think you could construct your own homebrew 18650-cell battery to replace an existing LiPo unit.
The last laptop I ever saw with an 18650 power bank was a Dell Inspiron 3567 Laptop my wife bought three years ago for a Black Friday special.
MNT Reform (Score:2)
Why? Battery replacements aren't that rare. (Score:2)
If you had just asked for a laptop with a replaceable battery, I'd have understood. Lot of laptops like this available. But 18650s? That would typically imply a large laptop (because these aren't very space efficient) and those typically already have replaceable batteries, which happen to be more space efficient. So basically you're asking for a large laptop with low battery life, just so you could use a specific type of battery. I don't get it.
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I don't get it.
Price point. Half a dozen 18650s are cheaper than a battery pack with a bunch of 18650s tacked together.
The down side: Laptops bursting into flames because the requisite charge controller is absent or mis-configured. And you make the nightly news when your laptop catches fire onboard an airplane and forces an emergency landing.
Almost All Dell laptops (Score:1)
Laptop 18650 (Score:2)
You can usually see which laptops use 18650s, by the shape of the case. Pick a laptop, and search Amazon for replacement batteries.
I strip the 18650s out of laptops for other uses. It's just cheaper that way. It usually works out to about $1 for each 18650, including the occasional bad battery.
Thin squares, like the MacBook Pro have, are different. It's pretty obvious that an 18650 wouldn't fit in it.
Built in batteries are more likely to be flat square or rectangle types. You're SOL for replacing those
Issues with non welded 18650 (Score:1)
Just send them to a battery shop (Score:2)
They'll take your case and put modern cells in it.
I found such, Fujitsu (Score:3)
Oh my gosh, good "old feeling" bulky and thick laptop with nice "old style" keyboard, removable battery, easily accessible RAM, HDD, minipcie slots (just few screws and lids for each) and decent up to date CPU/mobo.
Inside this replaceable battery very likely those 18650. They are not supposed to be serviceable, but if you really want to take all risks...
Or how about AAs (Score:2)
look up Rich Rebuilds Tesla Battery Fire (Score:1)
Think "outside" the box (Score:2)
The battery does not need to be "in" the laptop. That frees you to consider more options.
Realistically a new laptop battery will easily last 2 years. Especially more so if you follow proper battery maintenance procedures (do not drop below 30%, do not overheat, do not repeatedly charge/discharge, etc). However once battery starts showing signs of failure, you can then
1) Check for alternative batteries online. There is no device I owned that I could not find some replacement battery from a 3rd party vendor.