GM, Volkswagen Say Goodbye To Hybrid Vehicles (jalopnik.com) 336
An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Wall Street Journal: Auto makers for two decades have leaned on hybrid vehicles to help them comply with regulations on fuel consumption and give customers greener options in the showroom. Now, two of the world's largest car manufacturers say they see no future for them in their U.S. lineups. General Motors and Volkswagen are shifting the bulk of their future investment into fully electric cars (Warning: source paywalled; alternative source), seeing hybrids, which save fuel by combining a gasoline engine with an electric motor, as only a stopgap to ultimately meeting tougher tailpipe-emissions requirements, particularly in China and Europe.
GM plans to launch 20 fully electric vehicles world-wide in the next four years, including plug-in models in the U.S. for the Chevy and Cadillac brands. Volkswagen also has committed billions to producing more battery-powered models, including introducing a small plug-in SUV in the U.S. next year and an electric version of its minibus around 2022. VW and GM are focused on all-electric cars largely because of China, where new regulations require car companies to sell a minimum number of zero-emissions vehicles to avoid financial penalties. VW plans to use its electric-car expansion in China to build scale and drive down prices faster in the U.S., said Scott Keogh, VW's U.S. chief. "If I had a dollar more to invest, would I spend it on a hybrid? Or would I spend it on the answer that we all know is going to happen, and get there faster and better than anybody else?" GM President Mark Reuss said in an interview.
GM plans to launch 20 fully electric vehicles world-wide in the next four years, including plug-in models in the U.S. for the Chevy and Cadillac brands. Volkswagen also has committed billions to producing more battery-powered models, including introducing a small plug-in SUV in the U.S. next year and an electric version of its minibus around 2022. VW and GM are focused on all-electric cars largely because of China, where new regulations require car companies to sell a minimum number of zero-emissions vehicles to avoid financial penalties. VW plans to use its electric-car expansion in China to build scale and drive down prices faster in the U.S., said Scott Keogh, VW's U.S. chief. "If I had a dollar more to invest, would I spend it on a hybrid? Or would I spend it on the answer that we all know is going to happen, and get there faster and better than anybody else?" GM President Mark Reuss said in an interview.
To some extent, I agree. (Score:2)
Hybrids are a short term solution. However, if I was purchasing a vehicle today, I would not buy an all-electric. Why? The range issue.
1. All-electrics have a shorter range than hybrids.
2. At the end of the range, it takes longer to charge an all-electric than it does to refill the gas tank on a hybrid.
Item 1, in and of itself, is not that big an issue, once Item 2 is solved. The problem is that Item 2 is not a solved problem.
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't think of an electric in the same way you do petrol - you 'refuel' every night, not once every few days. Now if you don't yet have easy access to charging at work or home then yes - I may pause for a bit. But mostly you just plug in every night and have full range every morning. Every morning you wake up to the full range of your car being available, rather than running it for 2-4 days and then having to go to a petrol station.
People seem to have dreams that every day they'll leap to their feet and drive more than 300 miles. For a small minority, that might be true. For the vast majority...no, you don't. I'd like to see some more non-proprietary fast charging (European standard looks reasonable) but on the Tesla network you recharge at a speed of at least 250 miles per hour of charge and much much more in later cars (I have a 2014 model - charges at about 300 miles per hour of charge). You can justifiably say you could pour petrol in to do the same distance in a fraction of the time, but the point is you don't ever actually sit out the full hour - should you find yourself actually needing to top up, you top up for the range required and then go home to do a full overnight charge.
Like I say - no access to work or home charging? Might be a bit early. But if you do have access, then the problems you're talking about just don't exist. It's because you're drawing a direct analogy between the way you ensure range on an ICE car vs how you ensure range on a pure electric, when in reality that pattern is very different.
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Great. And I'm going on a road trip. I have to stop every 250-300 miles and spend the night (note: that's about 4-5 hours). Now what?
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, as he said, 300 miles per hour of charge. You stop for an hour and get lunch, drive another 300 miles, then stop overnight (600 miles/day is probably overkill for safety even if you think you can drive more). If you have a buddy, stop for dinner then swap, then stop for breakfast, and swap. It's not AS fast, no, but I'd bet down the line swapping batteries will be more likely that directly charging on long trips.
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:5, Interesting)
Also consider this from the perspective of a highway gas station (rather than from a single driver's perspective as everyone seems to). You can fill a gas tank in about 2 minutes. Call it 4 minutes after adding in time to pull up, futz with the pump, hose, swipe your credit card, and to pull out. A full tank gets you about 450 highway miles on most cars, but let's round it down to 400 to reflect people filling up before the tank is bone dry..
So that's 100 miles per minute at the gas station. For the EV, the figure is 150 miles per 30 minutes at the recharge station ( I won't even add in all the extra time I added above for the gas vehicle), or 5 miles per minute. In other words, if the current gen EVs were to replace gasoline vehicles for highway trips, there would need to be 20x as many recharging bays as there currently are gas pumps along every highway in order to maintain the same availability as with current gas pumps. If there are fewer recharging bays than that, you're not looking at 30 minutes per 150 miles, you're possibly looking at 60 or 90 or 120 minutes as you wait in line behind other people charging their vehicle(s).
As I see roughly 5 restaurants or diners per gas stations in highway locations, this also means that unless each recharging station becomes at least 4x larger than current gas stations (8-16 pumps would have to become 32-64 recharge bays minimum) thus necessitating only 5x as many locations, there may not even be a restaurant for you to eat at while you wait for your car to recharge. Currently Tesla is only averaging 8.8 bays per station [tesla.com] (14081 superchargers at 1604 stations). That figure needs to go way, way up for the "eat while you wait for the car to charge" scenario you've given to become realistic.
The technology still has a ways to go before it can realistically replace ICE vehicles for long road trips (granted you don't gain much from a hybrid on those trips, since most of their energy savings comes from regenerative braking in stop-and-go traffic). The ideal solution would be for people to use EVs for their daily commutes, and rent an ICE vehicle for their long road trips 2-3 times a year. But I've had a hard time convincing people that owning a car is essentially the same as renting. You just take how much you paid for the car, add up the maintenance costs, subtract how much you sell the car for, and divide it by the months owned to get a $ per month figure comparable to renting. Most people seem to think anything they do with the car is free if they own it, so renting a car "costs extra" when it really doesn't. (I've rented a car for my last couple road trips because when I did the math, the rental cost after coupons was less than if I'd put those additional miles on the car I own.)
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:4, Informative)
there would need to be 20x as many recharging bays as there currently are gas pumps along every highway in order to maintain the same availability as with current gas pumps.
You wouldn't need anything like that many, because most people driving down the highway in their EVs aren't going to stop along the way to recharge. Most of them are driving less than 300 miles a day. When they get to work or get home, they'll plug the car in and find it fully charged when they next get in.
Driving an EV is really different from driving an ICE. In an ICE, you have to go to the gas station to refuel. That's the only way to do it. In EVs, that's a rare thing to do. You just plug it in at night. Charging stations are only for rare (for most people) road trips. So you don't need nearly so much capacity in them.
You're not wrong, but ..... (Score:3)
One thing I've come to realize with EV's is, the rate of growth is limited by so many factors, it's just not even worth discussing a scenario where suddenly, we're "all driving electric vehicles" and overwhelming the charging infrastructure.
Among other things, the battery production is still not able to keep up. Many auto makers haven't expressed interest in selling a lot of EV's because honestly, they'd have to deal with too big of supply shortages on batteries if they tried.
I've done road trips almost ha
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You don't have to stop overnight every 250 to 300 miles! You have to stop for an hour. I know there are some edge cases where a person might want to drive for 12 hours with only 10minutes break in the whole time, and cover 700+ miles, but c'mon, that's vanishingly rare (and pretty damn dangerous, too). Most people will want at least one decent break for an hour for a meal, if not two. And those breaks provide the time needed to recharge.
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Depends on the queue to gas up. Stop at most gas stations along a highway and you'll see likely 12-20 pumps and almost never have to queue up with 5m to fill your car. In my albeit limited experience I've never seen more than 6 chargers and while that may be fine now, increase the number of cars trying to use them by 1000% at 1hr a charge and you'll be waiting for quite a while just to get to a charger.
This is the issue I see in the future.
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Great. And I'm going on a road trip. I have to stop every 250-300 miles and spend the night (note: that's about 4-5 hours). Now what?
Do that often? If not, rental cars are still a thing. If you do, then maybe get a traditional IC powered vehicle instead.
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:5, Informative)
Great. And I'm going on a road trip. I have to stop every 250-300 miles and spend the night (note: that's about 4-5 hours). Now what?
This is how I do it: start a road trip with 100% charge, it's enough for about 3 hours of driving (~200 miles with a hefty safety buffer). Then you stop at a supercharger until you get back to 80% (about 30 minutes), this also combines well with a lunch break, so you don't perceive it as a "downtime". Then you drive for another 3 hours (~200 miles).
At this point you can either plan for another ~20 minute charge to 60% and another 3 hour drive or you look for a hotel with a charging station. You stay in the hotel and charge overnight to 100%, then just rinse and repeat.
This way you can cover about 600 miles in a day with only about 30 minutes of "wasted" time when you have to actually wait for the car to charge.
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:4, Insightful)
Long trips are one area where ICE vehicles handily beat EVs. I'm not sure why people bend over backwards to deny this point. Teslas are not representative of all EVs in terms of range, and charging stations along freeways and highways are not nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations yet.
That being said, it's worthwhile to look at cost/benefit of owning an ICE just for this one benefit. If you take road trips reasonably often, it might be worth owning a gas-burner. Otherwise, it's not too onerous to rent a car for those trips. But if you're like me and almost never do so, an EV just makes more sense, because I very rarely drive more than 120 miles in a day (my extended family mostly live about 60 miles away), and the majority of the time, it's just my daily commute for contract work, or just the occasional grocery store trip when I'm working from home.
I've still got lots of years left on my ICE, which is paid off and is still running great, but my next vehicle is almost certainly going to be an EV. I think there are probably lots of cases like mine. I'm also fairly certain there are lots of two-car families as well, where you can split the difference, keeping one ICE for long family hauls, and one EV for the more typical day-to-day commute and in-town driving.
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Well, there are Teslas and then there are other electric cars. It appears to me that Teslas are already working well as road trip cars for a lot of people, and still getting better as they continue to bump up the range (370 miles on the newest Model S) and build more-and-faster (V3) charging stations. Other car makers aren't there yet. GM and VW and Nissan aren't there yet. They're gonna have to scramble to catch up. That's competition. Or as Lee Iacocca put it: Lead, follow, or get out of the way!
I gu
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:5, Informative)
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The reality is that for most people they will not have a place to recharge each night, look at all the cars parked in garages, lots,in the driveway or on the street. Do you really see most businesses, apartment, malls, etc setting up recharging stations and running properly installed and grounded electrical to each of those spots? Even if they did the amount of power that would have to be directed to those areas would require the redoing o
I agree... just not ready for prime time (Score:3)
Hybrids are a short term solution. However, if I was purchasing a vehicle today, I would not buy an all-electric. Why? The range issue.
1. All-electrics have a shorter range than hybrids.
2. At the end of the range, it takes longer to charge an all-electric than it does to refill the gas tank on a hybrid.
Item 1, in and of itself, is not that big an issue, once Item 2 is solved. The problem is that Item 2 is not a solved problem.
I could theoretically get one. I just took a job where I am 5 miles from work, and they have solar-panel-covered parking and recharging stations.
But... I don't want one. I am sure they can be fun, I drove an electric go-kart at a raceway that was a blast. But I really don't want one. They are eerily quiet. And we aren't at the stage where I know where charging stations are located... so if I were to drive 200 miles somewhere... I'd need to make sure there was somewhere to recharge. It's kind of a chic
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If you think an electric go-kart was a blast, you should try one of the newer EVs. Instant acceleration and 0-60 times of 5 seconds or less is intoxicating. You won't care about the lack of noise.
Stop being so negative and try one!
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm going all electric for my next vehicle, which should give around 350km of range under crap conditions. That's enough for 99% of my journeys, unless I'd need to visit a client in Germany or friends in France or the UK. In that case I'm looking at a single recharge along the way... which will be completed over a stop for lunch. Using an EV takes a little bit more planning on longer journeys, but that'll become less of an issue. Hopefully the EV after the next one will be able to make use of the new 350kW chargers that are being installed now. That'll put a few 100 km in your tank while you have a coffee.
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I'm not sure why range is an issue. The answer is pretty obvious standardization and easy replaceable battery packs. Drive 300 miles, pull in to a service station, swap out the battery pack for a fresh one, and off you go. The service station takes the depleted pack, recharges, and uses it for another customer. I know battery packs are pretty heavy, so this will probably mean the return of full service service stations. I don't see this as a real problem.
Honestly, this shouldn't be a problem.
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:4, Interesting)
However, from the automaker CEO POV, all-electric is almost certainly the way to go.
That's not as certain as the current zeitgeist might suggest. In particular, electric vehicles swap one scarce set of resources (fossil fuels) for another (rare elements needed to make the batteries etc.). The case for shifting to all electric looks great until you look at how many batteries you need to be producing, the entire known global supply of certain key elements used in the production, how long it takes to build the relevant manufacturing facilities, how you're going to recycle old ones, etc. There are still big problems to be solved before we can move from all-electric being a niche product to the default option, and that's before we even get into the practicalities about range, recharging, etc.
Re:To some extent, I agree. (Score:5, Informative)
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Make a FUN one... (Score:2)
Wish Tesla would do the roadster again.
Re: Make a FUN one... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wish granted! [wikipedia.org]
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Wish granted! [wikipedia.org]
"The base model was expected to sell for US $200,000 but the first 1,000 to be produced, the so-called Founder's Series, will be priced at $250,000."
Damn, low end Corvettes sure have gotten expensive.
With 20 models from GM alone (Corvette?) (Score:3)
With 20 different models from GM alone, plus all of the other manufacturers, I bet there will be something you like. GM could do a Corvette or Camaro. Between all of the manufacturers, there will be close to 100 different models to choose from soon.
Even tiny boutique manufacturers like Tesla might be able to make one or two models..
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Well, Tesla is working on a new roadster [tesla.com]. That said, it certainly isn't priced like a low-end corvette.
Personally, I'm waiting to see if the Tofino [electrameccanica.com] ends up existing...
They will go mild hybrid... last (Score:2)
GM's operating strategy has long been to wait for other people to figure out how things are done, then to copy it cheaper, and do more of it. That results in better margins. Everyone else will go to mild hybrid before GM, then GM will do it across their range and get a better deal on the parts. Mild hybrid requires small but good batteries in order to get any decent power from regen, but in the bargain it provides seamless engine stop-start (along with heated catalysts, which also depend on the 48V+ system
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I can't imagine owning a sports car, especially a VETTE without a manual transmission.
At this level it's more important to have the shift happen smoothly than to make you happy about shifting. The car stayed front-engine as long as it did to please old coots, but the people coming into money now want newer stuff. If the transmission is any good, it shifts faster than you do, and it does it while applying the torque smoothly. A bad automatic is terrible garbage, but a good one is a pleasure ever since we got shift levers/buttons.
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But really, shifting in a sports are is just more fun if nothing else.
If you want to shift a lot, get a FR-S/BRZ. Then you get a small engine and a close ratio transmission.
It makes sense. (Score:4, Interesting)
Hybrids are internal combustion vehicles that achieve marginal improvements to efficiency over traditional ICE vehicles at the cost of weight and complexity. The improvement is marginal especially when you consider the design compromises hybrid vehicles typically make to achieve high mileage numbers.
Once the range you can achieve in an EV exceeds what people want to drive in a day, and charging becomes sufficiently ubiquitous, the complexity, cost and weight of having a second, parallel motor system makes hybrids a lot less attractive.
EVs won't be better than ICE vehicles for every use case any time soon, but where they're good enough they're bound to be better than a similar hybrid.
Re:It makes sense. (Score:5, Interesting)
I basically agree. It all comes down to battery technology.
Gasoline still has ballpark two orders of magnitude better energy density than a battery. Is that enormous weight savings for "fuel" worth the cost and complexity of a small efficient IC engine powering a generator? The answer today is: yes (usually).
I would further add that from an environmental perspective, my research shows a pretty strong correlation between vehicle total cost of ownership and the total environmental damage. To those ends, I recently bought a car that was a small IC automobile, not even a hybrid. Hybrids and pure electrics look very attractive for the marginal cost per mile, both financially and environmentally, but they are not wins when weighed by total costs.
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I think you're right about TCO, but mainly because TCO is dominated by fuel consumption. Many years ago I asked an automotive engineer friend of mine how to select the car that polluted the least. His answer was: all things being equal choose the vehicle which consumes the least fuel.
Re:It makes sense. (Score:4, Informative)
Oh really?
https://cleantechnica.com/2019... [cleantechnica.com]
Or how about this one, comparing a Model 3 to a Toyota Corolla. Depending on the cost of gas and electricity, the Model 3 can be cheaper than the Corolla:
https://cleantechnica.com/2019... [cleantechnica.com]
Hybrids are still possible (Score:2)
They'll just have to run on non-fossil fuel.
Like Hydrogen
IMHO totally losing liquid fuel capability is bad. (Score:2, Interesting)
Unfortunately, the infrastructure for rescuing an out-of-fuel vehicle, and charging times when on long cross-county trips, still make purely electric vehicles a step down in utility.
With a gas or hybrid vehicle you can grab an opportunity that involves travel beyond a single-charge range. With a pure electric you need preparation and planning, or even the time and trouble of renting a specialized vehicle. Situations requiring regular trips beyond the single-charge range are degraded or rendered impractica
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Heck: If you live in silicon Valley and commute with an EV, but ski at Tahoe or weekend at Reno, you still need separate vehicle.
No you don't. I do regular Tahoe trips on my Model 3 just fine. There are plenty of superchargers along the way and destination charger locations near Tahoe.
The only non-trivial route for me last time was the "Loneliest Road in the US" (Highway 50 in Nevada). There are no dedicated chargers there and I had to stop at an RV park to charge.
EVs need not solve everyone's issues (Score:5, Informative)
Off-roading? Racing? Road Trips? EVs don't need to solve extreme cases. They need to accommodate the majority of cases the majority of the time. Do you commute 25 miles each way? The Feds say that is a lengthy commute. EVs solve that issue and any commute that is shorter. Just because EVs don't solve YOUR problem does not mean they can't make a significant contribution. It's not about you; it's about the average case.
Re:EVs need not solve everyone's issues (Score:5, Funny)
I bought an EV. It didn't fix my marriage.
EVs suck.
I'll believe it when I see it (Score:3)
GM plans to launch 20 fully electric vehicles world-wide in the next four years, including plug-in models in the U.S. for the Chevy and Cadillac brands.
I'll believe it when I see it. So far they have brought one to market which I happen to own. The Chevy Bolt EV is a solid first try at an EV but now I can buy the significantly better Tesla Model 3 for similar amounts of money so I find myself asking why they haven't introduced another EV in the last 3 years. The Bolt came out for the 2017 model year and has remained basically unimproved since then aside from some minor feature updates. There is no noise at all about GM bringing another EV of any consequence to market and it's hard to hide that sort of rumor.
Volkswagen also has committed billions to producing more battery-powered models, including introducing a small plug-in SUV in the U.S. next year and an electric version of its minibus around 2022.
So the company that got busted for lying to us is making promises. Yeah, show me the vehicles first.
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I find myself asking why they haven't introduced another EV in the last 3 years.
The market is still way too small. The only thing keeping Tesla afloat is the cash it gets from selling carbon credits to GM and the other big auto makers [techcrunch.com]. They'll let Tesla sell at a loss for a couple more years, then move into the market.
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Yeah, show me the vehicles first.
In the same vein, I would add: Show me the battery factory first, otherwise you're not to be taken seriously. You think you're going to sell a couple million EVs per year? You're going to need over 100GWh of battery production per year to meet that goal, which is more than the entire world (including Tesla) currently produces. You don't just buy those batteries off the shelf, you either need your own dedicated factory or a solid, long-term deal in place with a reliable manufacturer. Thus far, very few of th
EV and the hearing impared (Score:3)
https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/13651106/electric-car-noise-nhtsa-rule-blind-pedestrian-safety/ [theverge.com]
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They need to put them on some ICE cars as well then. At low RPMs, some ICE cars are dead silent as well. I've had a few sneak up on me.
I can't go to X party as they don't have an outlet (Score:2, Funny)
I can't go to X party as they don't have an outlet for car.
What happens to gasoline? (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's an interesting question--what happens to gasoline as this transition takes place?
I'm one of those people who believes that you should drive whatever suits your needs or desires. If you drive 500 miles regularly, an EV might be too inconvenient. I'm okay with that.
But I do see the transition happening, whether it's for cost savings, "saving the planet", or whatever.
So as more and more people switch to electric cars, what happens to the gasoline infrastructure?
Now the first thing people will say is that, "Oh, gas stations will add chargers!" And that's great. But what about the people who make gasoline? You have some pretty expensive infrastructure to refine oil into gasoline. As fewer people buy gasoline, refiners will produce less gasoline in order to keep the price up. At some point, you have to fix the refinery--parts don't last forever. Then you need to decide whether or not it's actually worth spending the money to fix the refinery to make gasoline if fewer people are buying gasoline.
Basically, you will start to lose the "economies of scale" for gasoline. So do prices go up, which drives more people into electric cars? Do refiners just get out of the gasoline business to the point that you have more of a monopoly on gasoline production?
Re:What happens to gasoline? (Score:5, Interesting)
Have we solved the Three Problems yet? (Score:3)
Before current hybrid drivers will move to all-electrics, three conditions have to be satisfied:
1. Is there enough $ESSENTIAL_ELEMENT in the world to produce really large numbers of the batteries you will use?
2. How long does it take to fully charge the vehicle, and how soon will the chargers you use become generally deployed?
3. Will your range be at least 300 miles with the AC or heater in use?
Hybrids do just fine (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course when I really want to get away, I drive my crew cab, 1 ton, 4x4 diesel - only way to pull a camper through the mountains.
Ultimately, EV, Hybrid, or IC - it's what life style you choose. Each has different +/- and "sweet spots".
Dear GM: we remember the EV1 (Score:3)
Stop trying to sound like you're leading the electric vehicle change that's been happening. It sounds forced and insincere.
General Motors EV1 [wikipedia.org]
You could have led the market and forced others to follow you into the future. You had your foot in the door, you were the first big one with the potential to change everything.
So stop with the false pretence. You are now just another copycat that has no choice but to enter the present, by force.
Re:Nope! (Score:4, Insightful)
Yep, need it to be dependable if you need to outrun a hurricane, or evacuate with forest fires....etc.
And..what about off roading? How you gonna charge out there when 4-wheeling?
Re:Nope! (Score:4, Funny)
And..what about off roading? How you gonna charge out there when 4-wheeling?
Ford seems to think there's a market since they are supposedly planning an electric version of the upcoming rereleased Bronco.
Off Roading??? (Score:2, Interesting)
How do you fill up your IC vehicle out there when 4-wheeling? Do you find a lot of gas stations in the middle of the wilderness?
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If I had mod points, I would mark this as funny... unless you are serious. In which case that is highly disturbing.
Re:Off Roading??? (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's get more disturbing.
An off-road electric vehicle could well include an LP or natural gas-driven engine driving a generator. Sort of a hybrid, yes.
A small engine could be very efficient in every way. While driving, a range extender. Overnight, handy power, then slow charge for the next day. It could be quiet if you bothered to design it so. Pickups and SUVs have some space flexibility. Not improbable.
Solar charging is a long ways off yet, it's just not efficient enough. And serious off-roaders carry Jerry cans of gas now, so carrying the genset isn't too much different. Heck, how about a genset backpack hanging off the rear bumper, in a Jerry can, with another for fuel. I can picture it, and smart people can work that out.
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Might as well wish for a stronger sun. The highest solar cell efficiency is now 47.1% (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/CellPVeff(rev190802)1.pdf [wikimedia.org]. We'll never see that efficiency tripled.
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Re:Off Roading??? (Score:4, Informative)
If I had mod points, I would mark this as funny... unless you are serious. In which case that is highly disturbing.
It was obviously sarcasm with a serious point.
Whatever fuel you're going to need - electric, gasoline, diesel, etc. - you are going to have to bring with you. People don't buy gas in the middle of the woods when off-roading, they refill from a gas can that they brought with them. In the case of electric, you'll either need to bring spare batteries or bring a generator to recharge them. And if you think about it, a hybrid actually makes far more sense off-road where charge/gas infrastructure is non-existent than on-road where charge/gas stations are available.
Re:Off Roading??? (Score:4, Informative)
No, you bring extra gas cans. Now, if I was going to make an electric off-road vehicle, I would have a way to carry extra batteries and have a way to swap them. I'm not taking my Tesla or Nissan Leaf off-roading.
Until this vehicle is made, he's right--gasoline is a better choice than electric. That said, how many dedicated off-roaders are there? They can keep their IC engines.
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No, you bring extra gas cans. Now, if I was going to make an electric off-road vehicle, I would have a way to carry extra batteries and have a way to swap them.
Given the size and weight of batteries these days, wouldn't it probably be more efficient to bring a generator(and fuel to run it) and use that to top off your electric car?
Re:Off Roading??? (Score:4, Interesting)
You just take extra cans of gas with you . . . .
Like it or not, the energy density of gasoline is amazing. Honestly I would like to see a move towards hybrids that run on just batteries 99% of the time, but with a small combustion engine that can run on pure ethanol for times you are away from a charging station, or don't have time to charge it. That gets us the flexibility of not having to worry about waiting around for a charge, and plain ethanol is relatively renewable.
Heck I keep a small 32oz can of fuel in my truck toolbox just in case I by chance run out of gas. Until opened this brand has a 5-year shelf life and 32oz will get me about 5-6 miles which is generally enough to make it to another gas station. For taking up about as much space as a big bottle of soda that type of thing is a convenience electric cars just can't match right now.
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Yep, need it to be dependable if you need to outrun a hurricane,
Is this the best you can come up with? Hurricanes, and even forest fires, can take hours to days to get to become a problem. The only way I can see the need to "outrun" one is due to poor planning. When Katrina redecorated New Orleans my cousin was on vacation down there in a RV. When they became aware of where it was going to hit, 3 days in advance, he just loaded up and was two states away when it did come ashore.
Re:Nope! (Score:4, Informative)
Yep, need it to be dependable if you need to outrun a hurricane,
Is this the best you can come up with? Hurricanes, and even forest fires, can take hours to days to get to become a problem. The only way I can see the need to "outrun" one is due to poor planning.
Umm, clearly you haven't been in an area where wildfires are a concern. Hours are common, but there are times when you'll only have 10-20 minutes (if that) of warning between "Oh, that's a thing that's happening" to seeing 40 ft flames coming at you in the distance.
Beyond that, why in the world would you even risk this? A disaster could happen at any time, and I don't want my survival to depend on *hoping* that my car has been plugged in already for the last few days.
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True, but if you are 10 minutes from a forest fire are you going to stand around at a gas station refilling your car or find somewhere to shelter in place?
I'd certainly want the option of taking a few minutes at a gas station to fill up rather than NOT having that option.
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This feels like an argument where the Apple fan is trying to convince you that remembering to carry a handful of dongles is completely normal and even beneficial.
Re:Nope! (Score:4, Informative)
The power grid won't handle everyone in Miami plugging their cars in to charge with 3 days warning of an impending hurricane
Let's do some math, shall we? A Tesla Model S has 370 miles of range with its 100kWh battery. Let's suppose that the next version will have 500 miles with 120kWh battery. This would be enough to escape pretty much any hurricane.
Charging 120kWh battery over 3 days from 0 to 100% works out to 1.6kW of sustained power use. Electric grids can handle this just fine.
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It does seems like LP or CNG are more viable. But the concept is the same.
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Just rent a car for that purpose, no? Sure, it costs extra money but if the cost of electrics drops then it's probably cheaper to rent the occasional minivan for a long trip to family reunion than to buy one outright as your commuter vehicle.
Re:Nope! (Score:5, Insightful)
My personal reason:
The housing situation where I live is pretty dire. Homes are too expensive to buy (fixer-upper is $0.4M), and being stuck in rentals, I can't guarantee I'll always have access to a charger. In fact, I don't have access to one now, nor is the wiring where I live in the right spots or of the standard needed to put one in.
Hybrids are going to need to continue to be there for those of us who aren't home owners. That's going to be a lot of millennials and onward.
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Yeah, I've owned two hybrids now because I can't reliably charge an all electric at an apartment
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As EVs become more common, more and more parking spaces will have charging outlets.
I can already charge my EV when I park it at the mall or at work. Downtown parking garages all have spaces with charging outlets. Apartment building parking lots, and street parking spots, will do the same.
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I can already charge my EV when I park it at the mall or at work. Downtown parking garages all have spaces with charging outlets. Apartment building parking lots, and street parking spots, will do the same.
They will do the same _eventually_, and, as a renter, _enough_ of them have to have put these in that you can have confidence that you can find a place with relative ease that suits your needs and has charging. We are a long, long, long way away from that. In my community street parking dominates, for example. There's no short or even medium-term solution for that.
Re:Nope! (Score:4, Insightful)
I can already charge my EV when I park it at the mall or at work.
Thats because you are an early adopter with little or no competition from other people needing a charge.
Wait until the demand for charging spots strips the supply...
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Re:Nope! (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? Engine block heaters. In the days of carburetors, the chances of your car starting after sitting outside all night in -15 F or colder weren't great, so many car owners installed engine block heaters and would plug their cars in overnight. Once fuel injection became common those block heaters and outlets disappeared.
My point is that this is a solvable problem. And EVs aren't the only major innovation coming to the automobile world. Two others are automated vehicles and car sharing services. Add to that the fact that you can order almost anything online and get it delivered plus the fact that millenials aren't as enamored with the concept of car ownership as previous generations and you can see multiple ways of addressing the problems of renters.
One is that fewer of them will actually need or want to own a car. You can already order a car on your phone and have it pick you up and take you where you want. Imagine how much cheaper that kind of service will be when you don't need a driver. Or an apartment building could simply keep several electric vehicles on site for their tenants to use.
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Yes, and I still use one on my work truck. However a block heater is at most a couple hundred watts and can be plugged into a standard receptacle circuit with a cheap extension cord. An EV charger is at minimum a $1,000 install, somewhat proprietary per vehicle manufacturer, and substantially increased cost from there if services or shared infrastructure needs to be upgraded. Sure it can be done, but that is a big capital expense that is unlikely to have good ROI on a rental property compared to bathroom
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An EV charger is at minimum a $1,000 install
No. If you want level 2 charging you do need to have 30A 220V service where you want to put the charger, but if you have that the charger itself needn't be more than about $250. Keep in mind that the actual "charger" is in the car. The thing on the wall/pole is just a relay with some smart (and not much smarts). In many cases people are just fine with level 1 charging, which requires exactly the same infrastructure as your block heater -- though it draws more like 1500W. If you could run a microwave ov
Re:Nope! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Nope! (Score:5, Informative)
Recharging ubiquity is some way off, for sure
Recharging speeds are also not where you would want them to be, although they're getting there
Range is also not quite at the number you want but getting there
Lights & stereo make zero difference to range that I've ever been able to see in 5 years of driving an EV (Renault Zoe). AC/heat makes a material difference
Full load makes no difference to range that I've ever been able to see
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Nobody is saying
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You'll stick to your ICE until you won't be sold a new one anymore and you are told you have no business within city limits with your old one.
No. You will be told that you have no business within the city limits. Then a court will strike down the ordinance that says you can't drive your car inside the city limits. Then you will load up into your ICE and drive any where you pay taxes for the road that you drive it on.
That is what ill happen.
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I never said it wouldn't happen. I just said it wouldn't happen through legislation. It will will happen through market forces and environmental conciseness. An you are probably wrong about the US lagging. The US, like it is doing in carbon emission reductions, will probably be one of the ones leading the way. The US is currently the 3rd largest country with electric vehicles on the road making it one of the largest adopters of electric vehicles.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/r... [forbes.com]
https://en.m.wikip [wikipedia.org]
Re:Nope! (Score:5, Insightful)
Dollar stores + chargers (Score:3)
Dollar stores make gobs of money in similar locations and don't sell fuel. They COULD sell quick charge access in "charger deserts".
Re:Nope! (Score:5, Informative)
Fine and all, until OOPS, there's not enough... (Score:4, Interesting)
This dropping of hybrids will be fine and all if they really do make cost effective all-electrics. But something tells me that they'l get down this road a bit and suddenly it'll be "Oops, there's not enough Lithium or XXX available in the world" and then the all-electrics will be discontinued or priced sky high.
I'm thinking solar powered barges, airplanes, and trains would be a better bet. Anything where you have a huge surface area that you can populate with solar panels for driving your motors directly will help reduce the need for heavy, high cost batteries. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of silicon for making solar panels and the prices just keep dropping. It would be far more efficient pretty much every way you look at it.
Re:Fine and all, until OOPS, there's not enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
There's already a huge reluctance for automakers to produce efficient gasoline powered vehicles for the US market. For the US they want high profit SUVs and trucks (I used to say pickup but these days they're too big to be called that). It seems that they want two markets in the US; all-electric for the greenies, gas guzzlers for everyone else, and then dump any small high fuel efficient or hybrid autos. At least the asian auto makers are still making economy and fuel efficient cars for the US.
I'm a bit iffy about all-electric cars. They have the drawback that you can't use them for the inevitable long distance trips and have to rent instead. So a plug-in hybrid seems much more useful. But I can also disagree with myself here, because I used to complain about people buying large minivans, SUVs, or trucks, just for the times once or twice a year when they're useful.
Re:Fine and all, until OOPS, there's not enough... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Fine and all, until OOPS, there's not enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
I own a plug-in hybrid (a Volt).
Plug-in hybrids are not worth it. You're carrying around a lot of dead weight in the form of a gas engine + associated parts, or a large, empty battery pack. However the space required for that gas engine + associated parts means you can't have a battery pack big enough to be useful for more than a very short commute (I get about 40 miles round-trip during the summer, 25 miles round-trip during the winter b/c of the heater).
In addition, the car is a lot more complex than either a gas car or an electric car. Which means I've had the lovely experience of having it towed to the dealer repeatedly, only for them to have no idea what's going wrong (car's been misfiring for 2 years and they can't figure it out. It took 5 tries to fix a problem where it wouldn't start). That complexity also means anything beyond minor routine service (oil changes, tires) requires going to the dealer.
As for "fill-ups" of the battery, day-to-day you don't think about it. You just plug the car in when you get home from work....exactly like an EV. There's really no need for a quick recharge on day-to-day driving, presuming your commute fits in the battery's range (which is way more likely with an EV than with a plug-in hybrid).
"But you have to pay to rent if you go on a road trip!!". Well, my wife's got a car too. And even if I did actually have to rent, the cost of towing the Volt back to the dealer over and over can pay for a lot of car rental time.
Yes, I understand the theory of why a plug-in should be "best of all worlds", but it also is the worst of all worlds.
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Hmm, the only charging station I know of outside of a city, while I'm driving to the middle of nowhere, is also in a different middle of nowhere, probably adding an extra 50 miles onto the trip. There just isn't the necessary infrastructure yes in places where EVs are rare.
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Electric SUVs.
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Re:Pure electric cars are useless, for now. (Score:4, Informative)
nonsense, charging at home for commute or weekend errands will work for 99.9% the people
Rent a IC engine car for any road trips until such day as you know you're covered for recharging on the go
Problem solved