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Power EU Earth

Hot Weather Cuts French, German Nuclear Power Output (reuters.com) 249

AmiMoJo quotes Reuters: Scorching temperatures across Europe coupled with prolonged dry weather has reduced French nuclear power generation by around 5.2 gigawatts (GW) or 8%, French power grid operator RTE's data showed on Thursday. Electricity output was curtailed at six reactors by 0840 GMT on Thursday, while two other reactors were offline, data showed. High water temperatures and sluggish flows limit the ability to use river water to cool reactors.

In Germany, PreussenElektra, the nuclear unit of utility E.ON, said it would take its Grohnde reactor offline on Friday due to high temperatures in the Weser river.

France's nuclear reactors supply more than 75% of its electricity, according to the article -- though their grid operator says they still have enough capacity left to meet demand.
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Hot Weather Cuts French, German Nuclear Power Output

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  • by Layzej ( 1976930 ) on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:41PM (#58998206)
    Some people complain that this is the hottest summer in the last 125 years, but I like to think of it as the coolest summer of the next 125 years! Glass half full! - Carter Bay [twitter.com]
  • Shown in UK exports (Score:5, Informative)

    by eastlight_jim ( 1070084 ) on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:45PM (#58998228)

    There's a 2GW link between France and the UK and that's been showing that the UK is recently exporting power to France where they are normally importing it:

    Gridwatch interconnector page [gridwatch.co.uk]

    It's interesting to see the effects of such a shutdown on the balance of the European grid.

    • The UK gets about 20% of their electricity from nuclear power. Did their nuclear power plants need to reduce power too? If not then why not?

      • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 27, 2019 @06:54PM (#58998790)
        The UK's nuclear plants all use seawater cooling, the large body of water means that once-through cooling does not result in excessive water temperatures.

        The affected French and German plants use once-through cooling drawing water from rivers. Low flow rates and high water temperatures mean that outflows from the plant raise river temperatures downstream. Due to the high inflow temperatures, continued operation of the affected plants would result in excessive downstream water temperatures.

        In France, coastal plants using once-through cooling, or riverside plants using cooling towers for evaporative cooling have not been significantly impacted.
        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Indeed, when the last heatwave hit they dumped hot water into the rivers and killed a lot of fish and other wildlife, so this time they have shut down instead.

          • That must have been decades ago.
            France shuts down a few plants _every_ summer.

            The effect is not that dramatic as they have nation wide holidays from mid July till roughly end of August. Hence many factories are either closed or work with reduced shifts.

            That means during daytime they usually don't need to import much. However they import a lot of power at night to refill their pumped storages. That is the main reason why Germany is a net exporter to France in the long run.

      • The UK gets about 20% of their electricity from nuclear power. Did their nuclear power plants need to reduce power too? If not then why not?

        Only reason to cut output of a nuke plant in hot weather is if the plant is using a river for coolant, instead of cooling towers.

        Perhaps the UK plants don't use a river as their heatsink?

        Or maybe it's just a bit cooler there?

  • by bluegutang ( 2814641 ) on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:51PM (#58998254)

    while solar/wind output goes down 100% in bad weather.

    Which should we be building our infrastructure around?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      while solar/wind output goes down 100% in bad weather.

      Which should we be building our infrastructure around?

      Why would available wind power stop in bad weather? If anything, it should increase up to 100%.

      • Why would available wind power stop in bad weather?

        Define bad weather. A wind free day is pretty bad weather for a wind farm.

    • by vadim_t ( 324782 ) on Saturday July 27, 2019 @05:36PM (#58998452) Homepage

      Solar, wind, plus storage.

      Nuclear is dead long term. It's the mainframe of the energy producing world. The moment other alternatives take off (and they already are), nuclear is doomed because it takes a very long time to build, it's expensive to build, is expensive to operate, it requires oversight, and it requires lots of government intervention.

      Eventually it's going to lose to the brute force of just building a lot of cheap solar and wind everywhere will be the easiest and most economical option. Just like today we run computing on millions of commodity machines rather than special built, room sized mainframes.

      • If nuclear power is too expensive then offshore wind should simply be out of the equation.

        http://www.renewable-energysou... [renewable-...ources.com]

        Power Plant Type Cost (LCOE) $/kW-hr
        Coal with CCS $0.12-0.13
        CC Natural Gas $0.043
        CC with CCS $0.075
        Nuclear $0.093
        Wind onshore $0.037
        Wind offshore $0.106
        Solar PV $0.038
        Solar Thermal $0.165
        Geothermal $0.037
        Biomass $0.092
        Hydro $0.039

        Also no more biomass or solar thermal.

        Those prices in the table are from the US DOE, and they do not include the costs of batteries for storage. I'd like to see some numbers on what wind, solar, and batteries are expected to cost. If someone has them then please share.

        • by amorsen ( 7485 )

          Offshore wind cost pr MW nameplate is falling more than 10% per year at the moment, and at the same time capacity factors are going up.

          Nuclear power costs are steady or rising. If you commission a nuclear reactor in a coastal region now, it will have to compete with offshore wind at half the price you are listing when it is finally complete. That is, if it gets built exceptionally quickly and wind power costs fall slower than anticipated.

          • Offshore wind cost pr MW nameplate is falling more than 10% per year at the moment, and at the same time capacity factors are going up.

            Nuclear power costs are steady or rising. If you commission a nuclear reactor in a coastal region now, it will have to compete with offshore wind at half the price you are listing when it is finally complete. That is, if it gets built exceptionally quickly and wind power costs fall slower than anticipated.

            Right, wind power sees a reduction in capital costs as they get experience, improved designs, and the infrastructure grows. But this is somehow impossible for nuclear power?

            I expect the nuclear power industry will see lower costs as they get experience, improve designs, and see growth in infrastructure. All we need is a government willing to issue construction and operation licenses, maybe toss in a few bucks to cover some of the development costs, then sit back as prices fall year after year.

            That's what

            • by amorsen ( 7485 )

              Right, wind power sees a reduction in capital costs as they get experience, improved designs, and the infrastructure grows. But this is somehow impossible for nuclear power?

              Nuclear power has had 60+ years to get the experience and improve the designs. In all that time cost has only gone up. Wind and solar have demonstrated cost improvements every year for at least the last 3 decades.

              I am not saying that it is impossible for nuclear to improve or impossible for solar and wind to suddenly hit some kind of wall. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. But damn, if you try to improve something for 60 years and it only gets worse, you are not getting my money for more a

              • Nuclear power has had 60+ years to get the experience and improve the designs.

                No, they didn't get 60 years of experience. Building them for 20 years and then sitting on their thumbs for the next 40 is not 60 years of experience. All the people that knew how to build these plants are retired, senile, or dead. With no industry for them to train the next generation there is only the old designs and a lot of theory to work from.

                To get that experience back will take another 20 years of building. We'll probably start with something not all that different from what we had 40 years ago b

                • The military never stopped building nuclear power reactors but those are very different from a civil design.

                  I just want to point out that they only do this where they have to, and they choose not to use their designs to power bases.

                • by amorsen ( 7485 )

                  So you are arguing that nuclear has a future because it wasn't properly explored the first time, and maybe if we start over we can spend 20 years getting good at building them. Even thought it did not work the first time around we did that. You want the taxpayer to finance it, because no one else will. Just to top it off, the money will have to be given to large non-innovative companies, because the small companies that create the innovation cannot handle building something as large as a nuclear power plant

                  • So you are arguing that nuclear has a future because it wasn't properly explored the first time,

                    It's not that the exploration was improper, I'd call the exploration incomplete. We had really just started to hit a stride on how to build large, safe, reliable, and inexpensive nuclear power right about the time we decided to stop. The industry was still exploring many options on how to do things right and hadn't shaken out all the little details just yet.

                    and maybe if we start over we can spend 20 years getting good at building them.

                    I didn't say it would take 20 years to get good at building nuclear power plants, I said it would take 20 years to get back to where we were 40 years

                • by q_e_t ( 5104099 )

                  No, they didn't get 60 years of experience. Building them for 20 years and then sitting on their thumbs for the next 40 is not 60 years of experience.

                  But they didn't stop for 40 years - they continued to be built across the world.

      • Solar, wind, plus storage.

        In Central Europe, solar power production during winter is about 5-10 % of summer values, so essentially nonexistent. You could have storage to cover evening and cloudy days, but definitely not for whole season.

        • Plain wrong.
          a) we still have about 8h daylight, or more.
          B) we have many sunny days
          C) even if it is cloudy, solar plants still produce 50% or more - and the indirect light lasts all day so the load curve is actually better

      • Solar, wind, plus storage.

        In northern Europe, for instance, the winters get dark, so solar output drops to less than 2 hours of sun per day in the 3 months of winter. How much wind and storage would we need ? I don't see batteries as a viable option for long term storage, and pumped storage requires suitable topography that not every place has.

        • Batteries will be viable, especially when you factor in EVs connected to the grid overnight where then power companies can borrow a small bit of power from each EV battery - obviously this only becomes effective once there are a large number of EVs on the grid. EV batteries can also be tapped by the owner's house itself to power it during the peak hour thereby putting less reliance on the grid then once cheap electricity comes online over the night period, the EV can then charge.
        • In north of Europe there is also a lot of water power plants Norway and Sweden has a large mountains and big rivers. In Sweden it snows in the winter. That snow melts during the summer and fill the dams. During winter the dams reserves are lowered and are used to generate electric power. In Sweden the reserves can hold about 1/5 of the electricity generated yearly in Sweden.

          That's one really huge battery.

    • https://www.forbes.com/sites/j... [forbes.com]

      Nuclear is the only energy source immune to all extreme weather events â" by design. Plants have steel-reinforced concrete containments with over 4-foot thick walls. The buildings housing the reactors, vital equipment and used fuel have steel-reinforced concrete walls up to 7 feet thick, which are built to withstand any category hurricane or tornado. They can even withstand a plane flying directly into them.

      We need nuclear power in response to the increased severe weather events that will come with global warming. If someone says we can't have nuclear power then I have to wonder just how much of a threat this person believes that global warming poses.

    • It would also depend on the bad weather. Droughts and heat waves could aid solar production.

    • The plants could keep operating. The reason they were shut down is because of environmental regulations; the plants could continue to generate electricity if the French worry so much about the water being a bit warmer.
      • Yeah, and who is removing the dead fish?
        Who is paying the guys doing it?
        Who is compensating fishers? Restaurants?

    • while solar/wind output goes down 100% in bad weather.

      Which should we be building our infrastructure around?

      Both. Diversity provides maximum reliability.

    • When does solar/wind go down in bad weather? That's a dumb thing Trump claimed on twitter and in rallies, but in reality that's why we have an electricity grid - because no power plant has 100% full output and uptime. When the wind/sun isn't blowing/shining - it likely is somewhere else on the grid.

      A friend who works at a coal fired power plant in Wyoming told me they've reduced the output of their plant more than half because of the about of wind turbines they have (it really never stops being windy in Wyo

  • These plants that were closed down, are located on rivers. The rivers are flowing slower due to less water, and therefore the nuke plants are heating the river up further. They shut down the nukes because the COMBINED HEAT of the climate change, combined with less water, and combined with the nuke heating, is killing the aquatic life. Basically, this is what fossil fuel plants are doing to the planet.

    We need to replace fossil fuel plants, but preferable with things like Wind, solar, but backed up by Nucl
  • have coal or gas to turn too, but, that "might cause global warming" LOL.
  • Should have thought of that before passing the "green" laws.
    Design in cooling systems to cool the warm water.
    Now the use of energy has to change due to laws and a lack of design.
    A big cold river was always expected to take in an average amount of heat after energy production.
    Green laws get passed and that cooling math fails.
    Design something on site to cool the warm water first? A huge new cooling "tower"?
    Germany pays more and more for its energy policy.
  • I have always wondered this about plant cooling, why isnt it a closed loop? Surely having pre warmed coolant and running the reactor at a slightly lower temp is more efficient and gets rid of cooling towers/ waste hot water into the ocean?

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