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Government Power United States

California Approves Wide Power Outages To Prevent Wildfires (nbcnews.com) 267

An anonymous reader quotes a report from NBC News: California regulators on Thursday approved allowing utilities to cut off electricity to possibly hundreds of thousands of customers to avoid catastrophic wildfires like the one sparked by power lines last year that killed 85 people and largely destroyed the city of Paradise. Utilities' liability can reach billions of dollars, and after several years of devastating wildfires, they asked regulators to allow them to pull the plug when fire risk is extremely high. That's mainly during periods of excessive winds and low humidity when vegetation is dried out and can easily ignite.

The California Public Utilities Commission gave the green light but said utilities must do a better job educating and notifying the public, particularly those with disabilities and others who are vulnerable, and ramp up preventive efforts, such as clearing brush and installing fire-resistant poles. The plans could inconvenience hundreds of thousands of customers while endangering some who depend on electricity to keep them alive. The precautionary outages could mean multiday blackouts for cities as large as San Francisco and San Jose, Northern California's major power provider warned in a recent filing with the utilities commission.

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California Approves Wide Power Outages To Prevent Wildfires

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  • What? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Friday May 31, 2019 @09:02AM (#58685120)

    In what sorry state of repair are you power lines when they are prone to causing fires?

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      We need to rake the forests, they are very messy

    • Re:What? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 31, 2019 @09:12AM (#58685186)

      The last fires happened because brush had not been properly cleared (because of environmentalists bitching) and the transmission towers were in a decrepit state. The tower where the fire started was 25 years past its useful life and no maintenance was ever performed.

      • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

        by e3m4n ( 947977 )

        but im sure Gov Jerry Brown will just blame global warming instead of taking responsibility for his utlity commission allowing the utility company to continue its practice of poorly maintaining their equipment. Its easier to blame something they know is never going to get fixed that actually fixing things they can. Its hard to raid the coffers if the funds get used up keeping things in proper well regulated order.

        • but im sure Gov Jerry Brown will just blame global warming instead of taking responsibility for his utlity commission allowing the utility company to continue its practice of poorly maintaining their equipment

          Aren't you guys the ones who claim regulations are unnecessary because businesses will do things like maintain their transmission towers and clear brush under them on their own?

          • by mysidia ( 191772 )

            Uhm; The power companies are not being allowed to clear the brush, or its adjacent -- outside their property.

            • Uhm, there's these things called "Easements" which are the only reason the power companies can put their wires there. They not only allow access, the power company doesn't even have to ask the owner of the property before clearing the brush.

              • by mysidia ( 191772 )

                Uhm, there's these things called "Easements"

                The brush would be outside their easements, and the easements don't override the government meddling by environmentalist groups [townhall.com]

                , anyways

                They make a point to stop even homeowners from using fire retardants or cutting brush, thinning; to protect their own property.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        because of environmentalists bitching

        Citation needed. I read that it was just the power company being cheap.

        • by lgw ( 121541 )

          Little of both. The power company is cheap in all the bad ways that cost more long term. The green prevent proper forest maintenance in general, leading to vulnerability to uncontainable wildfires.

        • The power company is a monopoly utility. One of the conditions for that monopoly is that PG&E has to provide service to remote communities like Paradise. Another condition was that everyone gets charged the same rates for electricity - PG&E is not allowed to charge Paradise residents a higher rate to reflect the difficulty of getting electricity to their community.

          That inability to recoup actual costs from the people causing those costs to be incurred, is what creates the incentive to skimp on m
    • The US infrastructure hasn't had much improvements in over 50 years.
      When ever there is need for an infrastructure upgrade it gets voted down because it is too expensive, which the current infrastructure deteriorates more, to bring it to cost more on the next vote.
      While we want a improved infrastructure. We don't want to pay for it. And we don't like the idea having Shady 3rd party contractor companies ripping us off. Or having a "Socialist" mass hiring of government workers to rebuild. There will be loser

      • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

        You're first comment is we vote it down because its too expensive than you say we object to socialst mass hiring of government works. You know we'd have to pay those workers right? That is one of the big reasons it would be too expensive. But lets be really really honest here the problem is the public utilities commission let this happen. This is very much a failure of government. The PUC in their zeal to "protect consumers" forced the utilities to charge rates for transmission below what would allow the

      • The US infrastructure hasn't had much improvements in over 50 years. When ever there is need for an infrastructure upgrade it gets voted down because it is too expensive,

        I can't recall EVER seeing a vote on whether to upgrade the power company's infrastructure, or a tax that was intended to pay for it. Every place I've lived the power infrastructure was owned by the power company and the power company was expected to pay for upgrading it.

        I HAVE seen charges on the bill for such upgrades, however. Never got to vote on them -- other than "voting with my feet" by cancelling my power service. If you expect people to "vote" like that, well ... I don't think any upgrade has eve

      • There will be losers for any upgrade, such as burring power lines underground means ripping up some peoples property

        Methinks you don't know just how expensive it is to bury high-voltage transmission lines. There's a reason those really big transmission towers are still used everywhere, even in pretty dense cities. Air is a very effective and cheap insulator. And ground has the unfortunate habit of getting wet regularly.

        Plus you still have to maintain those now-buried wires. If the company is failing to maintain the easy-to-get ones in the air, they're sure as hell going to fail to maintain the ones underground.

    • At least diesel generator manufacturers will be happy.

    • ... because shutting down parts of the grid is cheaper than maintaining it. And hey, we got government write-off on it, so suck it, customers!

    • Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Friday May 31, 2019 @10:43AM (#58685610) Homepage Journal

      In what sorry state of repair are you power lines when they are prone to causing fires?

      It's not the state of the power lines, it's the state of the trees around the power lines. PG&E is contractually obligated to cut them back. There are a couple of places where people have fought legal battles to prevent them from cutting them back severely, and opinions differ on whether those places should be cut back as far as PG&E wants to cut them or not, but none of those places are where PG&E-"maintained" lines have caused fires by contacting/being contacted by trees, so they can safely be ignored for the scope of this discussion.

      • Also: I her there was a group of "environmentalists" who organized a company that contracted with PG&E to do some of the tree trimming, then ran off with the money (to use for other tree-hugger projects) and didn't actually trim the trees. PG&E didn't inspect their (non) work, so it wasn't discovered until the wildfires were investigated.

        • And like many things that you "hear", it isn't true. But it does do an excellent job of reinforcing your preconceived opinions.

    • by eepok ( 545733 )

      It's not as bad as it seems. It's a balance of probability and severity of fault.

      Looking at the sheer amount of infrastructure out there and the amount of time that passes between faults, it's is exceedingly unlikely that existing electrical infrastructure will cause a fire.

      However, compounding a single fault with massive amounts of uncut brush and California's seasonally dry air and heavy winds makes a single fault exceedingly dangerous. The result in liability suits is so extreme that California was very

    • by syn3rg ( 530741 )
      Q: What did Socialists use defore candles?
      A: Electricity.
    • In what sorry state of repair are you power lines when they are prone to causing fires?

      This is all about California politics and expansive views of liability not a reflection on the state of power lines.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 31, 2019 @09:09AM (#58685162)

    Yes, can we please educate the public that filling distribution transformers full of bullet holes is not good?

    The Camp fires were caused by criminally-mischievous vandals shooting up a transformer, draining it of its cooling oil. Yet, this is somehow the responsibility of SCE since they have money and criminal rednecks don't.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      One wonders who that people that did that were. The idea that people might use rifles to shoot transformers and let the oil go has been on the counter terrorism folks radar for a long time. I remember talks about it back as early as 2k12 where there were real concerns about the lead time to replace those things.

      So who shot them up. Was it MS13 guys who should never have been allowed over the border? Was it a bunch of offenders that CA decided ought to be let out of prison... Was it some political motivat

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Whorhay ( 1319089 )

        It's rednecks for sure. There aren't enough terrorist and gangsters in the country to shoot up the number of signs I've seen with holes in them. It's not even like you have to go way out in the sticks to start spotting signs riddled with bullet holes.

    • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Friday May 31, 2019 @10:47AM (#58685638) Homepage Journal

      The Camp fires were caused by criminally-mischievous vandals shooting up a transformer, draining it of its cooling oil.

      That's one way to look at it. Another way is that the actual proximate cause of the fire was PG&E letting current flow through damaged hardware because they spent money putting smart meters (which often fail and overreport consumption, and sometimes fail in a way that they literally burst into flames) on people's houses instead of spending it putting monitoring equipment on transformers.

      PG&E has very little intelligence on their grid, and they don't clear trees adequately from around lines or poles. They don't adequately maintain poles in general, in fact. A transformer should be designed and sited such that it won't start a fire if it bursts into flame, regardless of whether it is shot or simply fails. Even if the responsibility is shared by other parties, PG&E is clearly grossly negligent.

      •     They also had repair people out to the exact location of where the fire started just a few days prior. The owner had been calling reporting issues with the power.
        I'm sure everything will be settled out of court with sealed documents.

            Also, doesn't California has months of dry, windy conditions? Are they going to turn off power for weeks at a time?

      • PG&E has very little intelligence on their grid, and they don't clear trees adequately from around lines or poles.

        Kind of hard to clear shit with tree huggers in the way.

        They don't adequately maintain poles in general, in fact. A transformer should be designed and sited such that it won't start a fire if it bursts into flame, regardless of whether it is shot or simply fails.

        The camp fire was caused by transmission lines not people shooting at transformers.

        Even if the responsibility is shared by other parties, PG&E is clearly grossly negligent.

        They never can't be. In California thanks to inverse condemnation you can be in full compliance with all safety regulations and still held liable.

        • While one might try to use regulatory compliance as a defense, meeting regulatory requirements does not automatically insulate one from claims of negligence.
    • The Camp fires were caused by criminally-mischievous vandals shooting up a transformer, draining it of its cooling oil. Yet, this is somehow the responsibility of SCE since they have money and criminal rednecks don't.

      This is the first I've heard of that, but if it's true it's definitely the fault of SCE. Where was the bucholz trip on low oil? Where was the trip on high winding temperature?

  • by John Jorsett ( 171560 ) on Friday May 31, 2019 @09:10AM (#58685172)
    California (well, its legislature) has passed a law to be 100% carbon-free on electricity by 2045. This will be a good acclimation program for our future of rolling blackouts.
  • by reanjr ( 588767 )

    San Francisco without power for days sounds like a disaster.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by pgmrdlm ( 1642279 )
      You mean it could be worse then it already is? People would have to shit in the streets? Wait, they already do that.
  • by Dan East ( 318230 ) on Friday May 31, 2019 @09:59AM (#58685402) Journal

    I bet the thousands of people that will fire up generators during those outages easily creates just as big of a fire risk as what they are trying to mitigate. But then the liability will be off the power company, which is the entire point of all this. Am I the only non-Californian that just sits back in disbelief over the decision making that goes on in that state?

    • I used to say that California is a state I like to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. Now I think I'll just avoid it altogether.
    • Generator? What are you, some kind of gun totin', Bible thumpin', Mother Gaia hatin' Texan? You should have solar, or wind backup! Or at the very least, a battery connected to your Peloton so you can make your own power...
    • Am I the only non-Californian that just sits back in disbelief over the decision making that goes on in that state?

      Well, I live here, and I'm dismayed as well. There must be some deep corruption in the CPUC.

  • Sorry, I decided I couldn't pay my bill this month, it was too hot and try to walk to the mailbox to mail it. And I couldn't pay it online because you TURNED OFF THE DAMN POWER I'M PAYING FOR. Seriously, any day the power goes out on purpose, 1/30 off your bill that month. If it goes out 3 days or more in any week, 25% off that months bill. 7 or more days in any given month, you get the month for free. Totally unacceptable.
  • Maybe practice some forest management? Learn that it's not a crime against humanity (or nature) to cut a tree down? Controlled burns?

    • Maybe practice some forest management? Learn that it's not a crime against humanity (or nature) to cut a tree down? Controlled burns?

      Even in California, in most places it's super-duper easy to get permission to cut down a tree, if that's even required. Only a few species are protected, like coast redwoods. People in California often fight over the disposition of trees on public land, but relatively rarely on private turf — or duff, as the case may be. I live next to a business that cuts lumber on its own property, and saws (and planes) it on-premises, then uses it to build homes in the local area... and it's in Mendocino county, it

  • ... "great weather", amirite? And so much smarter and cool than us flyover people?
  • This discussion has come up before, and I posted a link to the cost differences of underground/above ground transmission lines. Someone pointed out that the paper, even though well written. Was most likely put out by the electric community. This link is from the state of Wisconsin about underground transmission lines.

    https://psc.wi.gov/Documents/Brochures/Under%20Ground%20Transmission.pdf [wi.gov]

    If we are going to have this discussion, then having an unbiased reference point to work from would be nice.
  • 1. Clear out the undergrowth 2. Clear a path for the power transmission lines 3. STOP ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUILD IN AREAS OF KNOWN FIRE CANYON AREAS! ldiots!
    • That undergrowth in CA is various species of plants that are designed to grow incredibly fast during the relatively short rainy season, and then die and thus turn to tinder.

      So, in other climates you clear out the undergrowth and you're good for a few years....and what does grow back is relatively wet. In CA, you're only good until the after next rainy season. Which is why companies like PG&E were doing such a shitty job controlling undergrowth.

      STOP ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUILD IN AREAS OF KNOWN FIRE CANYON AREAS

      We call that area "California". The ecology of almost the

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