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Power Businesses United States

California May Go Dark This Summer, and Most Aren't Ready (bloomberg.com) 444

schwit1 quotes a report from Bloomberg: A plan by California's biggest utility to cut power on high-wind days during the onrushing wildfire season could plunge millions of residents into darkness. And most people aren't ready. The plan by PG&E comes after the bankrupt utility said a transmission line that snapped in windy weather probably started last year's Camp Fire, the deadliest in state history. While the plan may end one problem, it creates another as Californians seek ways to deal with what some fear could be days and days of blackouts. Some residents are turning to other power sources, a boon for home battery systems marketed by Sunrun, Tesla and Vivint Solar. But the numbers of those systems in use are relatively small when compared with PG&E's 5.4 million customers. Meanwhile, Governor Gavin Newsom said he's budgeting $75 million to help communities deal with the threat. PG&E said the city of Calistoga could have its service cut as many as 15 times this fire season, depending on how extreme the weather is. The utility also plans to set up dozens of so-called "resiliency centers," where backup generators can be brought in to run essential services.

"The utility aims to give at least two days warning about a shutoff and has embarked on a public awareness campaign including mailing letters to customers and is working to identify vulnerable residents," reports Bloomberg. "It also will be working to get power restored in a day after a shutoff, though its customers could be out for as many as five days."
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California May Go Dark This Summer, and Most Aren't Ready

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  • Theater (Score:5, Interesting)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:12PM (#58587560) Homepage Journal

    Instead of cutting back trees like they're supposed to, they're going to cut back power because they might otherwise cause fires in those trees.

    Kind of like when they did the big rolling blackouts, they were never at full utilization according to their own monitoring systems.

    • Re:Theater (Score:5, Informative)

      by jfdavis668 ( 1414919 ) on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:19PM (#58587580)
      Please note: "bankrupt utility" You can't cut back trees if you have no money to pay people to do it.
      • Re: Theater (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward

        You go bankrupt when three idiots don't allow you to cut trees and then make you liable for the ensuing fires. The state government sabotaged PG&E with their virtue signalling. Worse, the fucking retards who voted that government in are now fleeing and fucking up Nevada and Colorado.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Don't forget Texas. Hell they're even fleeing CA to states further inland and trying to bring their failed policies there.

      • Though I doubt the State will appropriate it wisely. It could go to clearing out the areas around power lines, eliminating the problem, but "to help communities deal with the threat", doesn't sound like it will.
        • by DarkOx ( 621550 ) on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @08:39AM (#58589064) Journal

          So how money from state coffers should go to paying for the things the utility would nominally have to do? If CA uses tax revenues to ensure PG&Es lines are secure will consumers see discounts on the transmission portion of the bill?

          We are having a similar fight in North Western Virginia right now. Dominion wants to build a pipe line to carry natural gas to Richmond. Okay fine but people here don't live in Richmond; most folks whose land will be impacted don't have access to piped natural gas. They won't benefit. Should the state be using eminent domain to enable a private company to build a pipe line which they will privately enjoy the revenue (or at least reduced costs) from? Should the state be able to appropriate property on their behalf, oh sure they pay "market" rates but lets be honest about that too, those rates are determined by appraisers that work for the state, and they don't really consider the long term desirability impact to many of these resorts that previously could boast some of the largest unspoiled wilderness areas on the easy coast for hiking, hunting, camping etc...

          I and a lot of other folks might feel differently if it was a "public" good being built like a road we could all use to travel more efficiently or that might reduce congestion on i-81 or something. However this won't help anyone except Domain and I suppose some folks down state might see lower natural gas and electricity rates; fat lot of good it does the people shouldering the cost though.

          IMHO we are past the era of "rural electrification" we should deregulate and expect utilities to pay their own way make their own agreements with land owers etc. If they can't then we should be willing to let their market share be taken by technology like off grid solutions, other provides delivering energy by other means. Li batteries are pretty light maybe Tesla can start swapping them like propane canisters for home energy.

          • by afidel ( 530433 )

            Should the state be using eminent domain to enable a private company to build a pipe line which they will privately enjoy the revenue (or at least reduced costs) from?

            Absolutely, that's how utilities have worked since the beginning in the US. They get a legal monopoly and easements in exchange for relatively heavy handed government oversight. There is nothing new or shocking about an eminent domain easement for a utility corridor, it's how every transmission line, pipeline, railroad, etc has been built.

          • So how money from state coffers should go to paying for the things the utility would nominally have to do? If CA uses tax revenues to ensure PG&Es lines are secure will consumers see discounts on the transmission portion of the bill?

            PGE clearly isn't capable of doing the infrastructure part of the job. Therefore the state should nationalize all the wires, substations, transformers etc. and leave PGE in ownership of their few generation stations as the terms of their bankruptcy. It makes little difference to me whether it's split off into a separate corporation which is prohibited from involvement with generation companies, or owned by the state directly. Either way, it needs to be more tightly regulated, and executive compensation stri

            • by ElizabethGreene ( 1185405 ) on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @02:15PM (#58591482)

              Therefore the state should nationalize all the wires, substations, transformers etc. and leave PGE in ownership of their few generation stations as the terms of their bankruptcy.

              My primary exposure to state-managed public services is roads. That experience causes me to question if the state should be entrusted with the role of managing a similarly complex electrical grid.

    • Re:Theater (Score:4, Informative)

      by arbiter1 ( 1204146 ) on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:27PM (#58587614)
      The state of California didn't do anything to prevent it from spreading like fire breaks or cleaning up area's to slow down spread. So much for 5th largest economy in the world to not be able to afford that which also includes some the highest taxes.
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Rockoon ( 1252108 )
        Californians keep telling us about a great sustainable future that they envision, but nothing California ever does seems to be sustainable.
      • by necro81 ( 917438 )

        The state of California didn't do anything to prevent it from spreading like fire breaks or cleaning up area's to slow down spread

        So...you're saying California should start to rake their forests [youtube.com]?

      • > So much for 5th largest economy in the world to not be able to afford that which also includes some the highest taxes.

        India and Mexico have big economies, similar to California. Big - lots and lots of broke people.
        Only those who haven't read the first ten pages of any economics book would brag about their economy being "big" - or someone trying to mislead others who don't know anything about economics.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by aaarrrgggh ( 9205 )

      Trees are one thing, but grass fires are still a pretty big concern. Beyond a friend asking if he should do a propane generator or batteries, I haven’t been following the Northern California preparations, but hopefully this will help to push to a more resilient microgrid approach.

      With a local microgrid, you can easily island from transmission or sub-transmission lines to maintain grid stability. For Calistoga, I would estimate they just need about 6MW of diesel plus ~10-20MWh of battery for a pretty

      • by PPH ( 736903 )

        they just need about 6MW of diesel plus ~10-20MWh of battery for a pretty resilient system.

        Problem: Just moving that power around in a neighborhood through overhead lines can create a fire hazard. It might have been a transmission line (115 or 230 kV) that went down the last time. But a 12 kV local distribution line can trigger a fire just as easily. They need to shut the grid down completely.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      You don't just cut back through a conifer forest in steep canyons in areas with few roads like it's some east coast city street.
    • by Kohath ( 38547 )

      If only electrical equipment could somehow be dug into the ground where it won't catch anything on fire.

      Instead California built a fraction of a high speed train that travels between places no one goes.

  • by redback ( 15527 ) on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:12PM (#58587564)

    Nice first world country you have there America

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by arbiter1 ( 1204146 )
      Its California, its a super majority liberal run state. Corruption and mismanagement of funds in that state is in sane to point they have some highest taxes, highest cost of living (100k a year still qualifies you for housing assistance.), and highest gas prices (5$ a gallon there, here in michigan its under 3$). The forsts there were mismanaged for years without cali gov doing what is needed to create fire breaks in area's that are at risk of wild fires.
      • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Monday May 13, 2019 @10:46PM (#58587678)

        The forests there were mismanaged for years without cali gov doing what is needed

        This is what happens when you have an enormous rural state (only Texas and Alaska are bigger), with all the political power in a few urban metropolises full of people that learned about forest management by watching Bambi [wikipedia.org].

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 13, 2019 @11:31PM (#58587812)

        Its California, its a super majority liberal run state. Corruption and mismanagement of funds...

        "America's largest state economy is California, which produced $2.75 trillion of economic output in 2017, more than the United Kingdom's GDP last year of $2.62 trillion. Consider this: California has a labor force of 19.3 million compared to the labor force in the UK of 33.8 million (World Bank data here)."

        California also provides more public infrastructure and such than say many other states do, in particular with how it relates to popular cities and such. That infrastructure does increase the cost per capita, but it also helps bring in and retain the best people. I'm of course not saying California is perfect, just that it clearly isn't doing that badly, though it does need to improve on its debt,

        Basically the only thing in your post that seemed reasonable was the likely hood of forest mismanagement. Guess what, you don't really get to call liberalism a failure cause one area in one state was mismanaged. Hell look what Von Clownstick is doing to this country? Do we get to call republicanism a failure because of him? Come to think of it, that seems a good idea.

        • That's fine but don't confuse the efforts of entrepeneurs with government policies. They sell to the US and world but choose to live there.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by swell ( 195815 )

        And yet people are dying to move here! If they can just get their game up to our standards; if they can find some little place they can afford on their out-of-state income. Our massive financial surplus, built up during the years of recession, seems to be an overlooked bonus that will guarantee energy, water and improved transportation for another generation.

        Yes California is a terrible place to live. Tell your friends and stay away.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Lets make a list of problems with modern society and see if California is a major source:

          Political divisiveness: Check.
          Tribalism: Check.
          Wealth stratification: Check.
          Abusive company practices: Check.
          Denial of basic science like vaccinations: Check.
          Consumerism: Check.
          Conspicuous consumption: Check.
          Wasteful water usage: Check.
          Bad infrastructure: Check. That's what this story is about after all.
          Wasteful power usage: Check. Same.
          Abuse of developing nations for manufacture: Check.
          Abuse of developing nations for r

      • by aepervius ( 535155 ) on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @03:22AM (#58588328)
        They are the first by absolute GDP (3 trillion) and the 8th by GDP per capita. So the corruption is not having that insane effect.
    • The only first world thing in America are their carriers and the planes on them ...

    • Right, now Trump gets to make fun of CA for having no power when there's no wind, as well as when there's too much wind.
      I'm getting tired of not winning.
  • by WindBourne ( 631190 ) on Monday May 13, 2019 @11:32PM (#58587820) Journal
    What is going on, is that the CA utilities have not done their upkeep on the lines.
    Instead, these MBAs have been paying themselves massive bonuses, profits, all to keep stock prices high.

    Bear in mind that in America, the utilities are supposed to keep the lines up and power flowing.
    Oddly enough, CA is requiring that utilities buy storage (predominately batteries), and use it as back-ups. Great, but it does NO GOOD, if you bring the grid down. If these utilities had regular ppl in control and not idiot MBAs, they would follow Vermont's plan. Basically, the utility will pay something like 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of a building's battery, and they are allowed to use it during normal times. They can store energy from night time, or if the building has solar, then store from local side. However, when electricity is not flowing in the grid, then battery provides back-up to the building. Not a bad deal. The utility gets double the storage, while the buildings get a back up system.
    • Do we know for a fact why the trees haven't been cut back? You say greed, others say ill-conceived California regulations. I'd like to know the truth.
  • Surprised Pikachu (Score:2, Insightful)

    by coastwalker ( 307620 )

    This is the United States Of America we are talking about here? A country that spends 686 Trillion dollars a year on "defense"? And you cannot afford to bury your powerlines and have to turn the power off randomly when the wind blows?

    Suckers.

    • by gtall ( 79522 )

      Try $800 Billion a year on Defense. A sense of proportion is critical modern life.

      • Try $800 Billion a year on Defense.

        I'm curious. What country spends $800B on Defense? The USA only manages about 2/3 that (according to the Federal Budget numbers), and I always thought we spent more of the military than anyone else....

  • 1. Work hard on the grid for decades.
    2. That builds the understanding of energy use and demand every year.
    3. Institutional understanding of the weather and power demands.
    4. Build a grid that can keep the power on in "summer". "Summer" is not an unexpected and new event in CA.
    5. Not got enough power? Build more generation capacity.
    6. Got way too much "free" power due to wind and solar? Why?
    7. Big battery project not doing what it should? Why?
    8. A grid should be ready for "summer" every
  • Greed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Lando242 ( 1322757 ) on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @02:25AM (#58588262)
    In 2010 PG&E blows up a neighborhood in San Bruno killing 8 people because they had used a pipe cobbled together from multiple pieces of other pipes to get it to fit in the section they needed. The welds were shoddy and it had been installed in 1956 but that didn't stop them from increasing the pressure in the line to meet demand instead of building more line or even inspect the line to see if it could handle it. They had cut the budget for pipeline inspections by 26 percent the year before. They also had been found to have illegally diverted 100 million dollars from the safety fund to "executive compensation". They made over 1 billion dollars in profit that year.

    For 14 years in the 1950s and 60s, PG&E dumped 370 million gallons of chromium-tainted wastewater into dirt-bottomed ponds around the city of Hinkley, CA. They did it because they didn't want to pay for proper disposal. They didn't tell anyone they had done this until 1987, claiming that they had just found out about it. This was because people were starting to figure out why they becoming sick and PG&E hoped to nip the issue in the bud, buy people out of their properties and give them some medical care hoping they wouldn't sue. When that failed, they spent years in court trying to prevent people they had sickened and killed from getting compensation. The movie Erin Brockovich is a basic retelling of what happened. They went so far as to falsify studies of the toxicity of hexachromium to humans and delay legislation to improve the quality of drinking water so they wouldn't be forced to pay for the damage they had done.

    The 2018 Paradise fire was caused by a failed power transmission line on a 99-year-old tower. Several of the towers had been damaged during high winds in 2012. Instead of replacing all of them they only made as many repairs as needed to get power flowing again and did "visual inspections" of the remaining towers. This inspection did not require a single person to actually climb any of the towers and make sure they weren't falling apart. In fact, they knew the tower was about to fail as they had called the owner of a nearby property to tell them they were going to be working on it a day before the fire. Did they cut the power to the tower? Of course not! That would give them a PR black eye. Meanwhile, the tower was already 24 years past its 'useful life' of 75 years but PG&E had no plans in motion to replace it. PG&E was also on track to make over 1 billion dollars in net profit for 2018 if it weren't for not one, but two fires caused by them.

    Old PG&E or new PG&E, they are just a bunch of greedy scumbags doing their best to compensate themselves and the shareholders. They aren't a power and gas company, they are a profit generator. First and foremost they exist to make the maximum amount of money they can get away with. Not a moral profit, not a nice profit, not an 'everybody wins' profit, profit above and to the exclusion of all else. Safety, reliability, and customer satisfaction be damned. If they could generate a profit for burning down orphanages there wouldn't be a single one left standing.
  • Why not force the utilities to put their wires in the ground? - There no wind can blow them into trees or start fires.

    Yes, it is possible. Here in Denmark more than 98% of all power lines are in the ground, from residential supply to major trunk lines. Yes, it costs more money but electrical power is not much more expensive here so it evens out.

    Sure, dumb contractors sometimes don't bother reading the maps and dig into them and then they learn their lesson the hard way.

  • it has become more clear throughout the years that we can no longer count on utilities to provide the whole population the whole time.
    electricity is a problem, with shortages when demand is high and ever increasing prices.
    water is also getting into problems with long dry periods or with quality issues.
    however, we have never had so much possibilities to provide these for ourself as in the last years. it's easy to provide your own electricity and it's not much harder to produce drinking water. it will only be

  • Sell the logging rights to the PG&E rights-of-way to ambitious companies, with the stipulation that they follow guidelines to clear the brush as well as trees.

  • by helpfulcorn ( 668048 ) on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @11:22AM (#58590092) Homepage Journal
    ..but the name "Camp Fire" is retardedly ambiguous because that's also a totally different thing, when they first reported it I was briefly confused "whose camp fire? what?" It's named after "Camp Creek Road" so why isn't it "Camp Creek Fire"? Maybe if one starts on a "Forest Lookout Road" they'll name it "Forest Fire".

    Also on the actual topic, the idea of turning off the power to avoid this issue is sort of like cutting of your hand to avoid splinters.
  • Serious advice (Score:5, Informative)

    by Miamicanes ( 730264 ) on Tuesday May 14, 2019 @12:46PM (#58590812)

    If you live in that area & have natural gas available... spend the extra cash & get a natural-gas generator, or a diesel generator with tank large enough to hold a week's worth of fuel.

    As someone who spent almost 4 weeks without power after Hurricane Wilma, and 8 days after Irma, I can tell you... regular gas generators SUCK. a 6.5kW generator running 2 window AC units (central AC is too big), refrigerator, and the usual lights & appliances (excluding the dryer... too big) burns through 10-20 gallons PER DAY, and gets expensive REALLY fast. They also need constant maintenance to avoid having the (unleaded) gas turn into varnish in the tank. Did I mention spending hours in line to buy gas, and driving home with a de-facto bomb in the trunk?

    Seriously, get one that burns natural gas, LPG, or diesel. You'll be glad you did. And if it's LPG... you NEED a large buried tank. Grill-sized tanks are NOT adequate, and will BANKRUPT you (and only run the generator for 3-7 hours, max).

    Also, if blackouts will be common, spend the extra for a proper subpanel & cut-over switch. A large generator has two 120v "legs", each of which need to draw approximately equal amounts of power. If one leg is drawing 3000W & the other is drawing 50, your generator works HARDER than if it has two equal 2000W loads.

    To a generator, inductive loads (motors, electronics, etc) "look" like a much bigger load than a resistive (stove, incandescent light, etc) load of the same nominal wattage. And things like compressors (AC, refrigerator) draw about twice as much power when starting.

    Finally... forget about trying to use a UPS with a generator. It almost NEVER works, due to the stupid way most UPS'es judge the quality of line power. You'll just end up with the UPS thrashing between battery & generator power until the battery finally dies. This applies to nearly ALL generators & UPSes, including "enterprise" ones.

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