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Transportation Power Technology

Tesla's New Model Y SUV Hits the Right Note By Playing It Safe (usatoday.com) 142

Posted by BeauHD from the new-and-shiny dept.
Last night, Tesla CEO Elon Musk unveiled the company's brand new electric SUV, the Model Y. The car is only slightly larger than the Model 3 and shares 75% of its parts, leaving many people wanting more. But, as USA Today reports, "The ho-hum reaction to Tesla's new electric SUV is, oddly enough, exactly what the company needs. [F]or a company that needs a little less pizzazz and a little more substance to make good on its promise to become a sustainable force in the auto industry, the Model Y hit the right marks." From the report: It's essentially a crossover version of the Tesla Model 3 compact car, bearing the design hallmarks of a hatchback and sharing the same architectural platform as its car sibling. That Tesla devotees weren't rewarded with sizzling new features on the Model Y illustrates that the company is getting serious about selling vehicles. After all, a compact SUV is precisely what Americans want: a driveable vehicle that puts safety first and flash second. Versions with five and seven seats will be available, with starting prices ranging from $39,000 for the base version to $60,000 for a performance model. If Musk had tried to break new technological barriers or adopt outlandish styling on the Model Y, he would have risked making the vehicle too difficult to manufacture and unappealing to conventional SUV buyers.

The first-available model will start at $47,000 and arrive in fall 2020. You can place a refundable deposit of $2,500 to secure your place in line when the vehicle becomes available. The base model of the Model Y -- the $39,000 version -- won't be available until "sometime in 2021," Musk said. Families can make the Model Y their primary vehicle since the battery range goes from 230 miles to 300 miles depending on the version. That stacks up well against other EVs on the market, such as the Chevrolet Bolt's 238 and the Hyundai Kona's 258. And while techies might not find the Model Y exhilarating, it will come equipped with software and sensors capable of autonomous driving, whenever it becomes legal. But buyers will have to pay for the system upgrade of $3,000 to $5,000.
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Tesla's New Model Y SUV Hits the Right Note By Playing It Safe More

Tesla's New Model Y SUV Hits the Right Note By Playing It Safe

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  • it will come equipped with software and sensors capable of autonomous driving, whenever it becomes legal.

    You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe this at this point.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      My guess is that once solid state lidar becomes cheap and small enough they will retrofit for people who already paid for full self driving, like they promised.

      They already have to retrofit the new revision 3 hardware to those older cars anyway.

      • Velodyne promised $50 (in quantity) LIDAR back in 2017, they've since been to CES this year (in January) and showed off three new LIDAR products, but AFAICT they've made no public word on pricing. One of those products is a low-end device only suited to driver assistance, which is the only one of the three that could plausibly be that inexpensive, so that doesn't really fit the bill. And there's no sign it will happen this year.

        Do you really believe that they will make a retrofit, years later?

      • My guess is that once solid state lidar becomes cheap and small enough they will retrofit for people who already paid for full self driving, like they promised.

        They already have to retrofit the new revision 3 hardware to those older cars anyway.

        How will that help? It's the software that's not up to scratch. Putting in better hardware is not going to help at this point; the reasons for the car being unable to drive autonomously is not because the sensors don't see everything.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          It won't help... But if they ever do make it work, they have realized that they need significantly more computing power than is available in the current system.

          • "but if they ever do make it work, they have realized that they need significantly more computing power than is available in the current system."

            Yeah, and in the mean time you have to drive keeping your hands positioned on the steering wheel fully ready to take over from the so called self driving mode. Which is clearly not what the driver in the video is doing by placing both hands on the bottom of steering, placed close together and holding it lightly from underneath :

            https://youtu.be/knaskUXb12A?t... [youtu.be]

        • Improved sensory equipment would decrease some computational requirements. So would making the environment more "machine-readable", such as including RF signaling equipment on road signs and markings. And other cars, of course.

    • You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe this at this point.

      So do you have a real reason for saying that?

      There's no reason to think Tesla cannot deliver full self driving at some point in the future. They are basically already for a lot of simple cases. so what leads you to conclude it's not possible for them to evolve what they have until it handles pretty much any case?

      • Re:What makes you say that? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by MachineShedFred ( 621896 ) on Friday March 15, 2019 @07:16PM (#58281320) Journal

        so what leads you to conclude it's not possible for them to evolve what they have until it handles pretty much any case?

        Hate and short positions.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Sure, if some point in the future is two decades. "Full self driving" includes all the edge cases. It's a thousand times more difficult than what Tesla is doing now.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Yep.
          30 years of programming experience tells me that the software will be compelely rewritten at least three more times to make the last few bits work properly.

      • There's no reason to think Tesla cannot deliver full self driving at some point in the future

        Yes there is. Nobody will be able to deliver full self-driving on all roads in the timeframe where the original purchasers still own these cars.

      • They started selling autopilot over 4 years ago - and still haven't come close to delivering. What makes you think they can deliver it at some point in the future? Most companies don't announce vaporware 5+ years in advance...

  • Far better to get a 410-mile range Rivian plug-in electric off road truck, with optional added 400 mile battery, with it's winch and design for rugged mountain and forest use. It's built in Michigan.

    But if you're city folk, and will rarely use it, go for the Tesla SUV.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      I'm not a fan of the curved roof and rear door. Would have been much better as a hatchback.

      • Re:I'd rather get a Rivian for the same price (Score:5, Informative)

        by Rei ( 128717 ) on Friday March 15, 2019 @06:25PM (#58281128) Homepage

        I'm not a fan of the curved roof and rear door

        Ditching that would mean about 25% less highway range, 25% longer charge times on road trips, and 80% the battery lifespan. Not worth the tradeoff.

        Would have been much better as a hatchback.

        It is a hatchback. Including a power liftgate.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Ditching that would mean about 25% less highway range, 25% longer charge times on road trips, and 80% the battery lifespan. Not worth the tradeoff.

          That's ridiculous. For example the Kona is not 25% less efficient than the Model 3. You would likely see a difference of 5-10 miles over the claimed 300 mile range.

          It is a hatchback. Including a power liftgate.

          Slightly different meaning here I think. The problem with that shape door is that it both lets rain water in and reduces the overall available height considerably. A vertical door would be much better.

          • Re:I'd rather get a Rivian for the same price (Score:5, Informative)

            by Rei ( 128717 ) on Friday March 15, 2019 @07:05PM (#58281270) Homepage

            That's ridiculous. For example the Kona is not 25% less efficient than the Model 3.

            https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39836&id=40585 [fueleconomy.gov]

            Model 3 MPGe: 123
            Kona: 108

            123 / 108 = 14% difference... on top of the fact that Kona is also a smaller vehicle (if you disagree, you've clearly either never been inside a Model 3, been inside a Kona, or both; Kona's rear seat in particular is tiny [fleeteurope.com]). Leaf is closer, though still smaller in most internal passenger space measurements. It gets 97 MPGe highway, aka 27% more energy than the Model 3.

            I'll repeat: Aerodynamics is done for a reason. It makes a big difference in range, charge times, and cycle life.

            (Oh, and a note for the above: The average speed for said "highway" cycle is only about 55mph; the faster you go, the more streamlining matters)

            Slightly different meaning here I think. The problem with that shape door is that it both lets rain water in

            That's what gutters are for, as you'll find in every single car which has that form of hatch (which are numerous).

            and reduces the overall available height considerably.

            Which is why tapered vehicles are generally longer.

            If you want a "city car" that never goes at highway speeds, but length is a critical factor, then sure, have a truncated rear end. But if you want an EV that's suitable for road trips, you want taper.

          • Slightly different meaning here I think. The problem with that shape door is that it both lets rain water in and reduces the overall available height considerably. A vertical door would be much better.

            Maybe that's the next vehicle. Anyway, we used to call these fastbacks, although those were generally 2 or 2+2 seaters. I miss my Nissan 240SX fastback badly. It could carry surprisingly large items, and it handled better than really anything else Japanese of its day except for the NSX. You had to get into something German or Italian to do better otherwise. But it also got 30 MPG on the freeway on normal tires back in '89, and at least some of that was due to its profile. It had pop-up headlights, and optio

        • It [nytimes.com] is [usatoday.com] an [wired.com] SUV [cnbc.com] not a hatchback. Even Teslarati [teslarati.com] proclaims it an SUV. And it's curved roof and door compromise it's role as an SUV. Apparently, based on your statement, because of battery constraints. So better to make it a poor SUV, than come out with something that does 225 miles - but has a usable interior (in terms of square shape). Better to do a BMW X6-style body that is universally derided as useless - poor for a car, and unusable as an SUV.

        • Would have been much better as a hatchback.

          It is a hatchback. Including a power liftgate.

          That being said, I'd like to see them make a hot hatch. Or a smaller wagon. Similar to how WRX used to have a wagon form. I always found hatchbacks deceptively good at moving a lot of stuff. I really miss the little 2 seater hatchback that I used to have (I've moved 2 times in the past year, and will be moving again in the next month)

    • Re:I'd rather get a Rivian for the same price (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Rei ( 128717 ) on Friday March 15, 2019 @06:32PM (#58281150) Homepage

      It's built in Michigan.

      It's not "built" anywhere. Rivian is a startup.

      Building a cost-effective mass production system is a hundred times more difficult than building a prototype or two and making some sleek marketing videos. Only one startup has succeeded at it in the US since Chrysler in 1925, and that's Tesla. Many have tried. All but one have failed.

      To be fair, Model Y isn't in mass production yet either. But it's certainly closer, not simply due to how many people have been working on it for how long, but in particular because it shares 76% of its hardware with the Model 3, which is already in mass production.

    • I also like the sound of the Rivian [adventure-journal.com].

      However, it is (A) somewhat expensive, (B) the company has no track record yet producing anything, and (C) not sure it will offer a self-driving option.

      The Rivian looks way more properly built for offload use than the Y though, for sure. And 400 miles range is great (assuming it really gets that range). I especially like the suspension...

      • The Rivian looks way more properly built for offload use than the Y though, for sure.

        The Y is not built for off-road at all. OK, maybe on a lawn. I would buy a Rivian, it is getting back to the essentials of a 4x4.

        • The Y is not built for off-road at all. OK, maybe on a lawn.

          It could handle most forest roads OK. I've taken less capable cars on those kinds of roads, they are OK if you are careful.

          I would buy a Rivian, it is getting back to the essentials of a 4x4.

          On paper it seems like that, but can they really deliver even at the high price already stated? At 60k you have a lot of very impressive 4x4 options. Electric is already kind of a negative in a lot of places you might take a vehicle like that, I like to expl

      • I also like the sound of the Rivian [adventure-journal.com].

        However, it is (A) somewhat expensive, (B) the company has no track record yet producing anything, and (C) not sure it will offer a self-driving option.

        The Rivian looks way more properly built for offload use than the Y though, for sure. And 400 miles range is great (assuming it really gets that range). I especially like the suspension...

        In the face of all evidence to the contrary, you appear to be under the impression that self-driving is solvable in a small timeframe.

    • Rivian will do very well, and despite being Tesla shareholder, if I ever wanted to own a car I would likely go that route. I am skeptical as to when Rivian will hit mass production, but they are led by a sharp CEO that has built a great team.

      At the same time, most of the market isn’t after an off-road vehicle— their most likely aspirations are to be able to get up a hill in the snow. The Model Y is well situated to serve that market.

      • Agreed, SUV is more on market. But if I'm teaching and researching in the mountains, and want to throw in some hunting and fishing and camping, it looks more my style.

    • This is just a Model 3, inflated like a balloon...

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Jeremi ( 14640 )

        This is just a Model 3, inflated like a balloon...

        I prefer to think of it as the Model X, Tom Brady Edition.

      • This is just a Model 3, inflated like a balloon...

        This has how I've felt about most car designs for the past 10-15ish years? I really miss some of the looks from back in the 90s.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      That market is starting to really heat up, the choices are growing fast, take your pick, https://cars.usnews.com/cars-t... [usnews.com] or https://www.tomsguide.com/us/p... [tomsguide.com] or https://www.edmunds.com/electr... [edmunds.com].

      The electric midsize SUV is the market place to be, both as buyer and seller and it is rapidly becoming much more competitive.

      Now there is a real gamble in there, how long to hold onto your infernal combustion engine. As more electrics entire the market, so the prices will drop but as more electric vehicles ente

    • But if you're city folk, and will rarely use it, go for the Tesla SUV.

      Quite. The closest that about 99% of city SUVs get to going off-road is running over the flowerbed in the private school carpark. City SUVs are stupid vehicles. They're not designed to go off-road. They're designed to look macho to people whoss ego is too fragile to drive a minivan.

  • The first-available model will start at $47,000 and arrive in fall 2020. You can place a refundable deposit of $2,500 to secure your place in line when the vehicle becomes available. The base model of the Model Y -- the $39,000 version -- won't be available until "sometime in 2021," Musk said.

    Based on Tesla's track record, that means the first-available $47,000 model will arrive in Spring 2021, while the based $39,000 version won't be available until sometime in late 2021 or early 2022.

  • This is the form factor I wanted - a taller Model 3 with a hatchback. However just like the Model 3, it has no dash, most controls are menus on the screen, unintuitive door handles, too pricey and only manufacturing the more expensive models first, got to wait another 1.5 - 2 years.
    I was excited to see the Model 3 on the road initially, but now I am sick of seeing them. They could have at least tried to given the Model Y some unique design styling.
    In 2020, there will be much more competition in the elec

    • Hasn't anyone got the Model 3 diagnostic port sussed out yet? Not that I'm in the market for a new vehicle, I wouldn't buy a vehicle that didn't offer me diagnostic access. If you had that, you could do your own instrument console.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        jack rickard on youtube is working on it.

      • things you need will be blocked at the CAN/LIN gateway.

        if not now, then later on.

    • Re: Dissappointed (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Code Herder ( 937988 )
      To each his own, I have a model 3 and I find it so weird when I have to use an old style car like my wifes volt with all the buttons and the tiny display. I liken physical dash buttons to blackberries vs iphone soft keyboards when it came out. A lot of people here bitched and moaned about it but in the end people voted with their wallet and like me they preferes the softkeyboard.

      I think this will be similar, its a trade off but I like the pros more than the cons.
  • What I see looks more like a VW Beetle knockoff.

    • I'm not sure it's a 4 passenger car, let alone capable of 7.

      • I wondered that too. It's hard to tell from the photos I've seen, since there haven't been any humans in there for scale... but this doesn't look large enough to be considered even a smaller SUV; e.g. a Hyundai Santa Fe.

        Nice to see the prices coming down somewhat, though. I'd never spend 40K on a car, but I know a lot of people do.

        • Okay, now I've watched the video where Musk introduced it. How the heck is that an SUV? Was the tiny Accord Hatchback I remember from the 1980s also an SUV?

          And how are they gonna get seven people crammed into that thing? Unless they're clowns, of course...

          • Electric car, skateboard floor plan is surprisingly roomy. There is no engine, radiator, transmission. The electric motor is no bigger than the differential. The battery is just a thick floor.

            X does not look all that bigger than S, but it is very very spacious.

          • Re:So where is the SUV? (Score:4, Interesting)

            by Rei ( 128717 ) on Friday March 15, 2019 @08:40PM (#58281708) Homepage

            You do realize that there were people taking rides in it all evening, right? Were they in on the conspiracy?

            Heard from a six foot guy who was in the back. Fit comfortably, although he did hit is head when they went over a speedbump. Probably only best for average height or short adults back there.

            • You do realize that there were people taking rides in it all evening, right? Were they in on the conspiracy?

              You need to cut back on the caffeine, man.

              “Conspiracy”? Seriously? It was a simple question. How does that qualify as an SUV?

              I will note that the other responder to my post actually gave a somewhat reasonable explanation - at least that it might be roomier inside than one might imagine from the size. But still, referring to it as an SUV seems like marketing-speak.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Rei ( 128717 )

                It's a 7-seater crossover with 1,9 cubic meters of cargo space with the rear seats down.

                If you want to complain about something being called a "SUV", look at the Hyundai Kona ;)

                • The Hyundai Kona is $19,000.

                  You can buy very well equipped mid-sized SUVs from Honda, Subaru, Hyundai, and so on that have near-vertical rear doors and 2.5 cubic meters of cargo space for under $40k.

                  From a sales perspective, I think Telsa is fooling themselves they can seriously call this the kind of SUV they claim it to be, especially at that price point.

                  Just call it a luxury compact crossover already.

  • I can no longer watch youtube with an ad-blocker on. But youtube-dl still works, so I just download everything before I watch it. What a bunch of tools.

  • All the news sites seem to be in agreement that because this is a Crossover type SUV, which is the big seller in the market right now, that this is going to do great.

    The problem I see from the perspective of almost every Tesla owner I've spoken to about is .... none of them are impressed by the styling or anything else about it.

    That tells me that yes, this really is a Tesla aimed at the "average consumer" who may have never considered one before, or didn't pay a lot of attention to them until now. That's fi

    • This is NOT really a vehicle that existing Tesla owners or fans will probably buy in any great numbers.

      Isn't that a good thing?

      If your current customers are satisfied with the current models, isn't it good to release a new model that appeals to different customers?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by King_TJ ( 85913 )

        Not really..... I mean, yes, it's good to appeal to a broader customer base. But I think so far, Tesla has gotten where they are mostly through loyal fans. (You know ... same way Apple built the company off of the historical 8% or so of the personal computer buying market who just loved everything they put out?)

        If they alienate the existing owners now, that means a lot of people who bought a car from them back in 2012-2015 or so .... That's enough time so a lot of folks are ready to do a trade-in for som

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Zobeid ( 314469 )

      More expensive than a Model 3, but less range and acceleration, more homely looking. . But it has a hatch back! . Clearly this is the perfect car and will crush the 3 in sales.

  • 19Q1 is going to be ugly. But already priced (Score:4, Interesting)

    by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Friday March 15, 2019 @07:37PM (#58281410) Journal
    Indications are US pent up demand is gone. Europe sales did not begin well in time. Took too much time in getting European certificates etc. Too much of inventory in transit. So 19Q1 is going to be ugly. But that news is already baked into the price.

    Long term situation looks decent. Though the pent up demand is gone, the base model will sell well. That will help with economy of scale. It is believed base model gross margin is not 20%. But it is not negative either. With all those slash and burn cost cutting the Q1 results will not be that bad.

    Come 19Q2, the 750 million dollar loss 18Q2 will roll off the trailing four quarter view. So Tesla might make be profitable and will be included in SP500. That will bring much needed price support due to index fund buying. By that time world wide pent up demand will be gone. But base model will have margins in 10% range and the company will be able chugg along.

    Demand will pick up for the model 3 in later half of the year. Tesla has not done leasing, advertising, fleet sales etc. It should be able to easily sell 350K model 3s world wide with an average sales price of around 40K.

  • I don't get it. I can appreciate what the report says, that Tesla did not over extend itself or go too wild with new features and design. But to call it an SUV seems like pure marketing BS. They make a few mods on their base model and call it whatever they want to capture so and so market. They could call it a mini big rig or a suburban war tank, but that don't make it so. Take a look at the thing at https://www.tesla.com/modely [tesla.com]. It is a small hatchback coupe that looks like my Honda did in the 1980's

    • It's a hatchback, with a few interior seating mods so they can make you think "I bought an SUV" ... if you are an urban yuppie ... who has never driven through a ranch or a back country road.

      Just like every other manufacturer's Crossover "SUV".

    • Every mile for a gasoline car comes from the gas station. For an electric car 90% of the miles come from an outlet in your home. You need to buy 10 times fewer miles off home. In the BEV universe, every outlet is a gas station!. All the 240 v outlets in camp grounds, hotels.. all are like gas stations.

      6 a week is plenty. It is exclusive to Tesla, anyway. For a 500K a year production rate this is good enough.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Rei ( 128717 )

      The site says:
      Granted, you have to see it in person to know for sure. But to look at the pictures, 7 people would be a huge squeeze.

      Were the people doing test rides in on the conspiracy?

      Furniture? A foot stool maybe.

      66 cubic feet / 1900 litres / 1,9 cubic meters with the rear seats down. A little less than a RAV4.

      I think what throws people off is that it's almost the exact same shape as the 3, just scaled up (it shares 76% of its hardware with the 3 for ease of production - hence the similarity).

      Sorry you

    • "Model Y is capable in rain, snow, mud and off-road."
      Off road? Sure, if pulling into your drive is off road. For that wilderness adventure, you can drive on your lawn.

      While I agree with you on every level on this point, every automaker talks the same crap about their tall sedans and wagons, er I mean crossovers. They're just talking about dirt driveways, and grass lawns. With that said, EVs tend to have exemplary traction control, which is handy in those scenarios.

  • a compact SUV is precisely what Americans want: a driveable vehicle that puts safety first and flash second.
    Essentially a station wagon, this is exactly what I want. But it still misses the mark. High on my list of priorities is a car that won't track my location via GPS at all times. Until I can have privacy and a Tesla at the same time, I won't be getting the Tesla.

  • Why do they keep making them look like boats with snooty noses (reminds me of the maître d' from Ferris Beuler's day off).

  • Tesla telecast a parade of American ingenuity, model after model. Finally model "Y" entered on stage; behold a Tesla launch vehicle for the foreign market space. A model designed for smaller roads, built for smaller budgets and engineered for the future. Tesla's smarter approach separates model "Y" from its other big American Dream models by moving on. Model "Y" can solve the last man problem how to provide affordable, energy neutral transportation down to the last man. Great pivot!

    UK,EU,CH,NZ,RU et. al. a

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