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China Power Technology

China's Fusion Reactor Reaches 100 Million Degrees Celsius (abc.net.au) 261

hackingbear shares a report from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation: The team of scientists from China's Institute of Plasma Physics announced this week that plasma in their Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak (EAST) -- dubbed the 'artificial sun' -- reached a whopping 100 million degrees Celsius which is six times hotter than the core of the Sun. This temperature is the minimum required to maintain a fusion reaction that produces more power than it takes to run. The Chinese research team said they were able to achieve the record temperature through the use of various new techniques in heating and controlling the plasma, but could only maintain the state for around 10 seconds. The latest breakthrough provided experimental evidence that reaching the 100 million degrees Celsius mark is possible, according to China's Institute of Plasma Physics. "While the U.S. is putting new restrictions on nuclear technology exports to China, inventions and findings of EAST will be important contributions to the development of the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER)," writes Slashdot reader hackingbear. The reactor is currently being built in southern France with collaboration from 35 nations. According to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, it is expected to be "the first device to consistently produce net energy, producing 500 megawatts of clean and sustainable power."
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China's Fusion Reactor Reaches 100 Million Degrees Celsius

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:14PM (#57646698)
    after which time the facility and everything within about 8 miles surrounding it ceased to exist
    • by ClickOnThis ( 137803 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:53PM (#57646850) Journal

      You joke, but actually plasma fusion reactors are quite safe -- far safer than their fission counterparts.

      Even if all of the matter inside a fusion reactor were to fuse simultaneously -- a physical impossibility -- the worst that would happen is significant damage to the reactor building. There simply isn't enough matter inside the reactor at any time to do worse.

      • Even if all of the matter inside a fusion reactor were to fuse simultaneously -- a physical impossibility -- the worst that would happen is significant damage to the reactor building. There simply isn't enough matter inside the reactor at any time to do worse.

        Fusion reactors are still generating neutrons.. activation is still a problem. There must be at least some radioactive crap that can leak out and make the evening news.

        • by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Thursday November 15, 2018 @02:33AM (#57647484) Homepage Journal

          Not really. The only direct products you make will be Helium-4 (stable), Helium-5 and Helium-6. You could smash up or change isotope a carbon, nitrogen or oxygen atom, I suppose. But you're talking very short half-lives.

          The concrete is a problem. Fortunately, the Iranians have a recipe that is less likely to powder or fail. So, with trade restored under the joint agreement, we're ok.

          Oh.

        • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday November 15, 2018 @02:39AM (#57647498)

          Fusion reactors are still generating neutrons.. activation is still a problem.

          Most of the neutrons are absorbed by the lithium blanket. The lithium splits into helium-4 and tritium. The tritium is collected and fed back into the reactor.

          Most structural parts exposed to thermal neutrons are made of zirconium, which has a very small neutron cross-section.

          There is some problems with neutron activation from a fusion reactor, but way less than with fission reactors. There is no danger of a "meltdown" or any other catastrophic failure. The biggest concern is a tritium leak, but tritium isn't very dangerous, dissipates rapidly, doesn't bioaccumulate, and has a half-life of only 12 years.

          Would I be willing to live next to a fusion reactor? Sure.

          • Most structural parts exposed to thermal neutrons are made of zirconium

            I couldn't find anything: do you have any info on that (the structural metal part)? Zirconium isn't a common structural metal. Presumably it would have to be alloyed, but then you have to concern yourself with the cross section of the alloying parts as well.

            All in all a very interestig engineering problem.

            • by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday November 15, 2018 @04:45AM (#57647726)

              Zirconium isn't a common structural metal.

              Of course not. It is heavy and expensive. It is only used where low neutron cross section is important.

              Presumably it would have to be alloyed

              Yes, most commonly with tin and niobium. Sometimes with chromium, nickel, or iron.

              then you have to concern yourself with the cross section of the alloying parts as well.

              Indeed. Most zirconium alloys are 95% or more zirconium for this reason.

              More info here: Zirconium Alloys [wikipedia.org]

              Zirconium sits right below titanium in the periodic table, and shares many properties, including high strength and resistance to corrosion.

              Just below Zirconium is Hafnium, which has one of the biggest neutron cross sections. Hafnium is used as a neutron absorber, and hafnium salts can be used as a neutron poison to quickly shutdown thorium salt reactors in an emergency.

              • I had done some design work on a nuclear fusion reactor, we mainly used common alloys like stainless steel (with special control over cobalt content), aluminum, titanium, etc. Aluminum alloys are great as they don't activate and self anneal radiation damage. The zirconium you mention might be more towards the intense plasma facing components. I've seen tungsten, carbon-carbon, and beryllium used in this area - particularly in the diverter area.

            • Most structural parts exposed to thermal neutrons are made of zirconium

              I couldn't find anything: do you have any info on that (the structural metal part)? Zirconium isn't a common structural metal.

              Zr is currently used as the cladding on fission fuel rods because it lets most of the neutrons through.

          • Neutron activation and a melt down have nothing to do with each other.

            Would I be willing to live next to a fusion reactor? Sure.
            Current technology? No. You can't. They are far away from habitated areas for a reason: neutron flux.
            There is a reason why the reactor gets evacuated and the scientists are underground during experiments: neutron flux.
            The biggest concern is a tritium leak, but tritium isn't very dangerous, dissipates rapidly, doesn't bioaccumulate
            No it is not. It is a GAS. It is more or less the w

          • by jabuzz ( 182671 )

            Add to this the half lives of neutron activated materials are all short. They are mostly measured in days and hours. It's not like fission where many of the half lives are measured in centuries and millennia. Basically decommissioning for a fusion power station is turn it off, wait say 20 years and dismantle like anything else with no precautions.

            So with the chance of anything going wrong leading to external contamination somewhere around Ä, other than I expect a fusion power station to be nosy like an

            • Until someone actually builds the first fusion plant. Then the flat-earth lobby will find reasons why this tech is the most horrible idea since Jenner invented vaccines.

              Fortunately these will be built in China, so there will be nothing the hippies can do about them.

        • Fusion reactors are still generating neutrons.. activation is still a problem. There must be at least some radioactive crap that can leak out and make the evening news.

          There is some but it's far less of a problem [wikipedia.org] than with fission reactors. The half lives of the waste products are short and there isn't much high level waste to begin with. In the event of problems the reactor shuts down almost immediately and there is no residual heat to cause the sorts of problems we see with fission reactor failures. Additionally fusion reactors do not contribute to weapons proliferation either. Basically fusion power is pretty much the holy grail of power generation if we can figure

        • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

          There must be at least some radioactive crap that can leak out and make the evening news.

          Then here come the hippies.....

    • The reaction will stop when the last atom on Earth is consumed. That should take a few seconds more.
  • Office Temp (Score:5, Funny)

    by raftpeople ( 844215 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:30PM (#57646752)
    Some of the researchers still felt it was too cold in the office and would prefer to bump up the thermostat a little more
    • Some of the researchers still felt it was too cold in the office and would prefer to bump up the thermostat a little more

      Actually they tried to make it too cold, but the temperature was an unsigned int and it wrapped.

      • by mikael ( 484 )

        You could do that with early PC flight simulators. Get a fast enough clockwise roll on your fighter plane, and after a while, it would start rolling anti-clockwise. Always wondered if that would happen in real life.

  • by doug141 ( 863552 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:35PM (#57646780)

    The protons in the core of the sun are in a temperature distribution, like a bell curve, and the average of this bell curve is way to cold for fusion. The only reason fusion happens is there are so many protons, a very few have freakishly high temperature way up the high end of the bell curve. Only those statistical outliers are fusing.

    • by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @10:11PM (#57646908)
      Oh, that reminds me when I asked my chemistry teacher why water would evaporate even below the boiling point. He said something similar, the temperature is the average but on occasion a molecule gets enough energy to exceed the threshold (thus cooling the others when it leaves with its heat). Similar? Or not?
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Similar in that statistically unlikely things happen quite often with enough time or space.
        The mean free path of a neutrino is calculated to be several light years through solid lead before hitting a particle.
        However neutrinos are emitted by the sun so frequently and neutrino detectors are so large that we can detect them reasonably frequently.

      • by mikael ( 484 )

        You could see that in the harbours close to the Arctic. The air would be below zero, but the water was still liquid. Little clouds of water vapour would form and float around the surface, looking like ghosts.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The thermal energy produced per cubic meter in the core of the sun is comparable to a compost pile and less than per volume heat produced by a human. The Sun is just really, really big, so emitted light gets re-absorbed as heat, and even a relatively conductive material makes a decent insulator if thick enough. The slow fusion process of the Sun can get as hot as it does just because the heat is so well trapped.

      On Earth, we are limited to only a couple meters of insulation, instead of 100,000s of km. The

  • Celsius? (Score:5, Funny)

    by 110010001000 ( 697113 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @09:48PM (#57646834) Homepage Journal
    That is 212 million degrees in Fahrenheit. If they did it in America it would have been much hotter.
    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      Real scientists use Kelvins, not C. But I can't be bothered doing the conversion right now.

    • sadly if done in America that is probably the calculation they would come to for 100 million Celsius
  • I'm afraid that all deuteriam and tritium based fusion reactors rely on fuel that is in extremely limited supply, especially tritium. Since the main source of tritium on Earth is nuclear decay from fission reactors, if there are enough fission reactors to generate enough of the very inefficiently used fusion fuel to generate significant, they can generate many times more energy from the fission reactors without having to engage in dangerous refinement of the tritium.

    It's theoretically possible that thallium

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Energy generation is not the point at this time. The point is creating and maintaining the plasma and 10 seconds is pretty impressive at this stage for Tokamak.

      • I agree that the physics is interesting. But the eagerness, and much of the fiscal support for fusion, has been based on the expectation to produce energy with it. There are some more viable approaches. Thallium fusion at least makes more economic and therdynamic sense: it seems possible to recover more energy than is used to create the reaction, and the fuel is far more plentiful. And technologies such as orbital mirrors seem viable to harvest similarly or even larger supplies of energy with less concentra

    • By neutron activation of lithium-6. There are a number of proposed ways to do this.
    • Umm.. if you get a fusion power plant going, that's a great achievement. You can then look for one that runs on easily available fuel.

      • The possibilities already exist, in physics and in resources, for thallium to provide fusion power. I was quite startled to learn this, it gets little attention compared to hydrogen fusion.

    • You can get all the tritium you need by capturing Spider-man alive and giving him to Harry Osbourne.

    • I'm afraid that all deuteriam and tritium based fusion reactors rely on fuel that is in extremely limited supply, especially tritium. Since the main source of tritium on Earth is nuclear decay from fission reactors, if there are enough fission reactors to generate enough of the very inefficiently used fusion fuel to generate significant, they can generate many times more energy from the fission reactors without having to engage in dangerous refinement of the tritium.

      The plan is for tritium to be bred from fusion reactors when they are actually working in a commercially useful manner.

    • Yeah... you don't know what you are talking about. Deuterium is abundant, no problem, you can buy heavy water from ebay ffs and there is no limit to making more, it just takes power. And practical D-T reactor designs all include tritium breeding from lithium, which is also abundant and cheap. There are many difficulties with fusion, fuel availability is not one of them.
      • One can, indeed, buy heavy water, the economic and thermodynamic cost of refining it is large: it takes more power than the fusion reactions produce until and unless they become _profoundly_ more efficient, and the energy cost of refining deuterium is rarely factored into the "break-even" point of fusion power. The cost of refining the tritium, and the economic costs of refining a toxic, very radiuctive, chemically reactive gas is also not factored in.

        It is, possible to for neutrons from fusion reactions t

    • This would also keep thallium out of the hands of serial killers:
      https://www.theledger.com/arti... [theledger.com]

    • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

      What about H3? I've been hearing for years that we can get that from the moon. Where the stuff is supposed to be just laying around by the truck load tor the taking?

  • One fusion dirty secret is that it produces neutrons that cannot be confined by electromagnetic fields, because they have no charge. They will damage the reactor, and the only way to get rid of them is to use some a-neutronic fusion reaction such as hydrogen+boron.

    But hydrogen+boron fusion require much more input energy than hydrogen+hydrogen. Is 100 million degrees hot enough?

    • Proton-boron fusion requires temperatures 10x higher than D-T.

      What's more, because of the higher atomic number for boron, Bremsstrahlung radiation will cool the plasma (if it's thermal) faster than the fusion reactions heat it.

      If the plasma isn't thermal, it's actually really hard to keep it nonthermal (entropy tends to win very quickly.) So it seems to me that aneutronic fusion reactions are hopeless for a plasma where losses due to Bremsstrahlung are larger than the fusion power will be.

      --PeterM

  • by kaoshin ( 110328 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @10:14PM (#57646914)

    While the U.S. is putting new restrictions on nuclear technology exports to China

    How about instead, saying "While China is repeatedly caught attempting to steal nuclear technology from the United States"...

    OK, and a linked article bashing Trump admin policies based on testimony of officials who briefed New York Times journalists under condition of anonymity? Yep, this is without question legit and unbiased.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      How does putting export restrictions on nuclear technology to China prevent China from stealing it?

      Aide from anything else if they were minded to steal it they could just get it from the US direct or from other countries it gets exported to.

      • How does putting export restrictions on nuclear technology to China prevent China from stealing it?

        It'a not stealing if they use technology that we have no interest in developing.

    • How about instead, saying "While China is repeatedly caught attempting to steal nuclear technology from the United States"...

      But what would the point be? I mean industrial espionage has been a core part of every major nation since industrialisation. What purpose does it serve to point out the obvious?

      But since we're talking nuclear I have a better question for you: What's the purpose of nuclear technology for a nation if all you do is build weapons with it. Knowledge doesn't benefit you without the application of that knowledge. And in other news the world's first Westinghouse AP1000 reactor is now online ... in China.

  • by Ungrounded Lightning ( 62228 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @10:20PM (#57646936) Journal

    China's Fusion Reactor Reaches 100 Million Degrees Celsius

    Plasma energy sounds really large when you express it in temperature. But a more convenient gauge may be the voltage needed to accelerate the particles to velocity magnitudes correspondng to that sort of energy. This is also directly applicable to fusion systems, such as the Farnsworth-Hirsch or Bussard's Polywell, which use electric fields to accelerate the particles into the reaction volume.

    Both electrons and hydrogen nuclei have a charge magnitude of 1, so dropping them across a potential difference of N volts adds N electron volts of energy to each particle. Then, if you let the plasma thermalize to a Maxwellâ"Boltzmann distribution, the electron temperature will be (by definition) the temperature of the distribution is about 2/3 that corresponding to the average electron energy.

    So to go from degrees Celsius degrees (of a thermalized plasma) to electron volts:
      - Subtract 273.15 - a .003% drop in the bucket. (Kelvin step sizes are the same but Celsius starts at 273.15 Kelvin.)
      - Divide by 11,605 to get electron volts.
      - Multiply by 2/3 to get the average energy of the electrons and ions.

    That's an acceleration voltage of 6,025 volts (or 9,037 if you're going to react them before they thermalize). That's right in the ballpark for high-end vacuum tube technology - like the second anode on a CRT. (Those ran about 3000 to 6000 V in the 1940s, and about 25,000 V when modern color tubes were being replaced by flat panels.)

    You can see why we all had high hopes for things like Polywell, where (if it worked as expected) a "gassy vacuum tube" that would fit in a strip-mall store's back room, with all supporting equipment (mostly mid-20th-century style electronics), and provide 100 MW of DC at cross-country power line voltages.

    Of course many of the other methods for directly heating plasma heat the electrons much more than the ions. So the average energy of the plasma may be substantially lower.

  • There is a company called General Fusion http://generalfusion.com/ [generalfusion.com] that is attempting to use liquid metal fusion containment. Sounds very cool, in an almost steampunk sort of way. Being a physics noob, I'm wondering if anybody who actually knows this stuff can comment on whether or not their idea makes any sense?

    • by ledow ( 319597 )

      The one run by a guy who used to make bits for laser printers?

      Yeah, I wouldn't hold much hope.

      He may be way more qualified than I could ever be, but it just sounds like a PhD with an idea to me. There are literally millions of those kinds of people round the globe, and he hasn't really shown anything special or different.

      Hell, his Wiki article still harps on about some amazing micromirror thing that would revolutionise the telecoms industry which he seems to have just... done nothing about.

      Would trust this

    • I don't think so. Causing fusion into a melted lead-lithium fluid is good for achieving near 100% fusion energy capture, but since the fluid traps all ionizing radiations emitted from the engine, the only way you have to control if and how the system is working is by inserting a thermocouple in the molten fluid flux... I am afraid that this device will be a nightmare to work with.
  • by angel'o'sphere ( 80593 ) <angelo.schneider ... e ['oom' in gap]> on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @11:05PM (#57647084) Journal

    It will run at 400 - 600 seconds and will produce more energy than it consumes, that is all. There is no power plant attached nor will there ever be: https://www.iter.org/sci/Goals [iter.org]

    And the power production is not clean as long as we use deuterium + tritium, the reactor vessel will have to be replaced around every 10 years and discarded as highly radioactive waste.

    Regarding sustainability: ITER will attempt to breed tritium ... lets see how good that works. Otherwise we had to farm tritium from the sea, which is energy intensive and causes another spot in the chain to work with an radioactive element.

    • by jabuzz ( 182671 )

      Well duh ITER is not a power plant that is DEMO.

      Sure the lining of the reactor vessel might need replacing depending on what ITER is able to determine (one of it's goals is investigation of the lining for the reactor). However once it is taken out it can be stuck in a warehouse for ~20 years then recycled. Sure it might be highly radioactive but the half lives are basically all short on a human time scale unlike fission reactor waste.

    • There is no tritium in the sea to be harvested. Well, there might be some after Fukushima, but good luck chasing down these lone atoms all over Pacific.
  • by truckaxle ( 883149 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @11:34PM (#57647180) Homepage
    You Frenchies and Chinese... Clean Coal 4Ever.
  • Pleased to observe that I am not on the opposite side of the planet to China if that stuff gets out of control.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Re:Really hot! (Score:5, Informative)

      by ledow ( 319597 ) on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:45AM (#57648382) Homepage

      To sustain enough steam to power the world you would need, not unsurprisingly, the entire world's current supply of oil, gas, nuclear fission, solar, wind, hydro, etc. Because... that's pretty much what we use it to do (I'm excluding all losses here, for simplicity).

      One you achieve fusion, you can literally power the entire world from 867 tonnes of hydrogen per year. That's maybe a shipping container full of hydrogen. Something we can pull out of the ocean.

      For reference, we would need to burn 12 billion tonnes of oil, 10.4 billion tonnes of gas or even 7000 tonnes of uranium to do the same.

      Pretty much the only thing more powerful is complete utilisation of E=mc^2 - merging antimatter and matter and capturing the blast. You'd only need 3 tonnes of antimatter to power the world in that instance.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/s... [forbes.com]

      Fusion, if it can be made to work, could power the entire world from one power station. Of course, that's not what would happen - we'd just end up USING UP all that energy and every country would have half a dozen of them. We'd end up synthesising rare materials and doing all the things we can't currently do because of the sheer amount of energy they require, rather than actually just settle on current usage coming from one place.

      But it literally is an order of magnitude more energy than the nuclear reactors we have now, which are orders of magnitude more energy than even coal and oil, which are orders of magnitude more energy than anything else.

      And it looks like we could viably do it inside the next century or so.

      With that amount of energy, you could easily obliterate the planet, or fire things into space like they were paper planes.

  • by DavenH ( 1065780 ) on Thursday November 15, 2018 @08:17AM (#57648296)
    > The Chinese research team said they were able to achieve the record temperature through the use of various new techniques in heating and controlling the plasma, but could only maintain the state for around 10 seconds. The latest breakthrough provided experimental evidence that reaching the 100 million degrees Celsius mark is possible

    100 million degrees is a record for plasma, perhaps. If it proved that reaching 100mK was possible, it's only in the tokomak design, because the Z Pulsed Power Facility achieved 1 billion K in 2006!
  • It's a great achievement, not doubts, however the problem with fusion is to control plasma long enough to have sustained reaction, thus getting netto energy surplus.
    At the moment the biggest problem is that plasma leaks through magnetic confinement dropping temperature and shutting down fusion, and short bursts of fusion require more energy for heating plasma than one gets back.

    The ITER (international tokamak project) aims at breaking even, there are also other approaches, for which major players are:
    - s

    • by doom ( 14564 )

      Myself, if I had to make a guess, I'd pick something like the Polywell design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      But then, I was largely persuaded by some snark from Bussard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

      Paraphrasing from memory, his line goes something like: "We've spent billions of dollars researching Tokamaks and what we've learned is that Tokamaks are no damn good. Even the people working on them will tell you that they're never going to work, but they say the physics is really good. They're l

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