Apple Confirms Its T2 Security Chip Blocks Some Third-Party Repairs of New Macs (theverge.com) 179
An anonymous reader shares a report from The Verge about Apple's new security-focused T2 chip found in the newest Mac computers. The introduction of the chip "has renewed concerns that Apple is trying to further lock down its devices from third-party repair services," The Verge reports. From the report: The T2 is "a guillotine that [Apple is] holding over" product owners, iFixit CEO Kyle Wiens told The Verge over email. That's because it's the key to locking down Mac products by only allowing select replacement parts into the machine when they've come from an authorized source -- a process that the T2 chip now checks for during post-repair reboot. "It's very possible the goal is to exert more control over who can perform repairs by limiting access to parts," Wiens said. "This could be an attempt to grab more market share from the independent repair providers. Or it could be a threat to keep their authorized network in line. We just don't know." Apple confirmed to The Verge that this is the case for repairs involving certain components on newer Macs, like the logic board and Touch ID sensor, which is the first time the company has publicly acknowledged the tool's use. But Apple could not provide a list of repairs that required this or what devices were affected. It also couldn't say whether it began this protocol with the iMac Pro's introduction last year or if it's a new policy instituted recently.
First revealed last month by MacRumors and Motherboard, both of which got their hands on an internal Apple document, the T2 chip could render a computer inoperable if, say, the logic board is replaced, unless the chip recognizes a special piece of diagnostic software has been run. That means if you wanted to repair certain key parts of your MacBook, iMac, or Mac mini, you would need to go to an official Apple Store or a repair shop that's part of the company's Authorized Service Provider (ASP) network. If you want to repair or rebuild portions of those devices on your own, you simply can't -- at least, according to this document. The parts affected, according to the document, are the display assembly, logic board, top case, and Touch ID board for the MacBook Pro, and the logic board and flash storage on the iMac Pro. It is also likely that logic board repairs on the new MacBook Air and Mac mini are affected, as well as the Mac mini's flash storage. Yet, the document, which is believed to have been distributed earlier this year, does not mention those products because they were unannounced at the time. Regardless, to replace those parts, a technician would need to run what's known as the AST 2 System Configuration suite, which Apple only distributes to Apple Stores and certified ASPs. So DIY shops and those out of the Apple network would be out of luck.
First revealed last month by MacRumors and Motherboard, both of which got their hands on an internal Apple document, the T2 chip could render a computer inoperable if, say, the logic board is replaced, unless the chip recognizes a special piece of diagnostic software has been run. That means if you wanted to repair certain key parts of your MacBook, iMac, or Mac mini, you would need to go to an official Apple Store or a repair shop that's part of the company's Authorized Service Provider (ASP) network. If you want to repair or rebuild portions of those devices on your own, you simply can't -- at least, according to this document. The parts affected, according to the document, are the display assembly, logic board, top case, and Touch ID board for the MacBook Pro, and the logic board and flash storage on the iMac Pro. It is also likely that logic board repairs on the new MacBook Air and Mac mini are affected, as well as the Mac mini's flash storage. Yet, the document, which is believed to have been distributed earlier this year, does not mention those products because they were unannounced at the time. Regardless, to replace those parts, a technician would need to run what's known as the AST 2 System Configuration suite, which Apple only distributes to Apple Stores and certified ASPs. So DIY shops and those out of the Apple network would be out of luck.
T2, T2, dupe dupe (Score:1)
Stop with the T2 articles, shit
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And abandoned as rapidly as possible like investors are doing with AAPL stock.
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And abandoned as rapidly as possible like investors are doing with AAPL stock.
It's the truth. Apple down another 1% today, and down 17% in the month.
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Apple isn't about privacy, realistically speaking. It's about keeping data trapped in Apple's ecosystem -- privacy theft is OK as long as Apple is the one doing the stealing. Good thieves brook no competition.
Prove it.
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Their nudging everyone to use iClown vs local storage and/or local backup. Apple are as bad as Google, MS, or Amazon in their cloudpushing scumbaggery.
They might "push", but they don't (yet) REQUIRE. That's a BIG difference!
I, for one, don't use ANY iCloud services or storage; even though I am tempted to, if, for no other reason, effortless iPhone backup and bookmark/content sharing among my various Apple devices and computers.
But, I simply don't participate. So, "freedom to choose" is still intact.
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Apple isn't about privacy, realistically speaking. It's about keeping data trapped in Apple's ecosystem -- privacy theft is OK as long as Apple is the one doing the stealing. Good thieves brook no competition.
Prove it.
How can one prove that a major device maker is not cooperating with law enforcement? Apple, Windows, Android and Linux would not be allowed to pass unless there was co-operation with the current government. In todays modern world, only a fool or a liar would believe otherwise.
Would not be allowed to "pass", WHAT, exactly?
I think you need to understand the difference between "Obey a lawful Order" and "Are Complicit With"
And I think you really need to upgrade to a heavier-gauge tinfoil. The one you are using isn't deflecting enough of the mind-control beams...
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Fool and liar. Perfectly describes the asshole faketimcook
Anonymous and COWARD. The name says it all...
Secure enclave. (Score:2)
I've often seen "secure enclave" spelled as "secure enslave." Now I know that wasn't a typo.
Anyway, I'd have no problem with something like a boot warning of unauthorized repairs, but prohibiting owners from fixing their own fucking equipment stinks. Especially since there are parts of the world that can be a thousand miles and in a different country from the nearest Apple store.
Sad how far Apple has fallen from being a company founded by hackers and geeks.
Re:Secure enclave. (Score:4)
I'd have no problem with something like a boot warning of unauthorized repairs, but prohibiting owners from fixing their own fucking equipment stinks.
Do you have a proposal for how to separate these two? What's to stop a malicious change from masking this boot warning? The security point of the T2 chip is well documented by Apple. The conspiracy theories are the same for the iPhone, though. Bottom line: You can't make a secure system if you allow random modifications. The tiny market share of people who are going to tweak their devices isn't worth forsaking real security for everyone else.
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Came here to say, is it possible to replace the T2 with a 555 or something equally innocuous?
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Just provide a tiny tiny switch that people who tweak their devices can turn off. Is it really that hard?
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Or they can just ignore the complaints coming from a niche user group composed of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all users?
Re: Secure enclave. (Score:2)
Re: Secure enclave. (Score:2)
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Do only a fraction of a fraction of a percent of users ever need their "vintage" Apple hardware repaired?
Re:Secure enclave. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, it's really that hard. The T2 chip prevents the evil maid attack. Put a switch in, and you've re-enabled the evil maid attack. You can have protection from this attack, or you can have repairability. It's a crappy choice. If you prefer repairability, you have options.
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Other manufacturers manage to overcome this problem, and actually it's not hard. Laptops from companies like Lenovo and Dell have had the same level of resilience to the evil maid attack without locking out third party repairs. Replacing the secure memory won't help the evil maid, because that's where the encryption keys are stored so replacement means wiping the laptop's SSD which gives the game away and is easy to detect.
Perhaps you can explain exactly what benefit the T2 chip has in this regard.
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Do they really? [citation needed]
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Protection does not require complete lockdown. Simply a warning that the maid was up to evil is enough. That way you have some form of protection and repairability at the same time.
In other news my phone puts some red text on the top of my screen saying that Knox is disabled and that custom software is running on it. I'm okay with this.
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How do you differentiate between a legitimate repair and an evil maid "repair"?
That you are okay with this and want devices that prefer repairability to security means that you aren't the customer Apple is targeting with this marketing campaign.
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How do you differentiate between a legitimate repair and an evil maid "repair"?
Ask Apple. They seem to be doing just that. But you fundamentally miss my point. You don't have a loss of security in this regard. Just because you're not locked out of the system doesn't mean security is lower. All that needs to happen is that you be made aware that your device has been tampered with.
Your firewall also doesn't set fire to your building everytime a sketchy looking packet comes through. At least I hope not, as amusing as that would be.
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Does it though? Other than Apple's marketing what do you know about how the T2 chip works that satisfies you of this?
Have you read the security guidelines for the T2?
https://www.apple.com/mac/docs... [apple.com]
So it is impossible to simply inform the user that the device has been tampered with?
If you read my original post in this thread, I'm specifically asking for proposals how to do that. In all my security work I don't know how to do this. You seem to know it can be done, so please, do share. Or go out there and build a better product and make mint. I'd love for someone to demonstrate how it can be done, but proof by assertion isn't.
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How does the user validate that the change did not compromise the hardware?
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The sad fact is that you do have to trust somebody. That somebody could be Canonical, or it could be Apple. But if you trust Canonical, you also have to trust whoever makes the software you're running Ubuntu on. So now you have two companies you're trusting. If you trust Apple, you are trusting one company. And unfortunately in practice we actually have no way of validating whether or not these companies are trustworthy. This is a really nasty problem.
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Your disk is signed. USB devices are not automatically trusted, and do not automatically get DMA access. DMA is done through an iommu.
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The tiny market share of people who are going to tweak their devices isn't worth forsaking real security for everyone else.
1. tiny market for after-market parts?
2. Apple totally did this for end-user's security. definitely. Absolutely no other possible ulterior motive.
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If the market is so tiny why would Apple spend 100s of millions on some unproven conspiracy?
Re: Secure enclave. (Score:2)
Fuck that!
Squarely in they brown eye at that!
Imma buy me an iThing then go around saying things like âoeDonâ(TM)t buy it if you canâ(TM)t afford it, thenâ.
Cause I ainâ(TM)t no poor person, and ishit is how I tell certain people that Iâ(TM)m better than they are. Not to mention, it kicks up the ole self-esteem a notch or two, cause betwee
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It doesn't have to be one or the other, you know. Yes, this works out well for Apple. If you have a problem with that, you either have to give up on that security feature, or get some new regulations passed (good luck with that!) that constrain the markup companies are allowed to charge for doing repairs, such that you stop feeling like it's a problem that you can't get an aftermarket repair.
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Re: Secure enclave. (Score:2)
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I think you're confusing the smartest users with the users that claim they're the smartest. The smartest users understand it just fine.
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If your computer is ever taken by the TSA, and you care about them accessing your files, you should just recycle it.
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The whole security model of the T2 chip prevents it. You can't get your data or authenticate your password without the chip. Users are guaranteed to notice if you mess with it. If you fail over to "working with some detail", you can use the working side of it to hack around the detail.
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Whats to stop a malicious user from acquiring the tools used by the authorized repair shop?
Welcome to John Deere (dealer only service) (Score:2)
Welcome to John Deere (dealer only service)
Now will the EU or Australia do something?
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That's what happens when you live on a Caribbean island with less than 200,000 people, I can imagine a lot of services are not available there. I grew up on a farm in the American Midwest, and there were no authorized repair centers for anything nearby. If you had something critical to work then you automatically bought two of them. We bought a lot of stuff over the phone and had it shipped to us. If it didn't work for us, it needed repair, or whatever, then we had to do without until we could ship it b
Re: Secure enclave. (Score:2)
Wait ...
Rock and hard place. (Score:1)
So, you might go to a third party repair shop that winds up (innocently or maliciously) installing a replacement component that was built in China and has a spy chip in it that sends your data back to the Chinese government.....and this chip can help block it.
On the other hand, such a requirement produces lock-in which keeps your prices high and prevents open competition for services, which is bad for you and the market.
And anyway the trust issue is kind of moot because Apple might be inserting their own sp
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Except that years and years of showing users warnings have simply coditioned them to ignore said warning and click through them.
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Depends on the type of warning. If most people got their computer back from repair and it flashed a red, 10-second-long message in several languages that "This hardware has been compromised with unauthorized components," I suspect they'd listen. Make it annoying with a loud beep or the car-crash sound from old Mac system-failure messages, and keep it up there for 10 seconds without ability to click through.
Far better than turning hardware people OWN into a brick or holding it hostage.
Re: Rock and hard place. (Score:2)
Nobody listens to nerds!
Now Imma gonna go use my software, which was all written by gangsta rappers and their smoking hot ghetto-as bitches, ya heard?
Yeah, you better have heard.
Get off of Slashdot, nerd.
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There's a happy middle ground -- warn about "un-blessed" hardware, don't brick computers because of it. A Big Red Banner on boot and maybe an audio warning would be sufficient.
People Ignore Software Security Warnings Up To 90% of the Time, Says Study [slashdot.org]
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Couldn't care less what Apple's motivation is but warning banners are less than useless.
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This is bad UI design. What you want is to fail if security is compromised. You don't offer a warning. You just fail. As soon as you start offering warnings and bypasses, you've created an attack surface. And yes, the typical end user will succumb to the attack. So if you want to be elitist and watch your users get pwned, sure, put in a bypass. Otherwise, make your software fail safe.
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News for nerds (Score:5, Insightful)
"...the T2 chip could render a computer inoperable..." and it went on from there. The hinge of this whole story rests on a "could". Twist the hinge one way, there is no story, the other way, and ... well ... you get this flame bait
You know, stuff that matters.
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...the T2 chip could render a computer inoperable...
And here I thought that was IOS's job.
Re: News for nerds (Score:2)
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"...the T2 chip could render a computer inoperable..." and it went on from there. The hinge of this whole story rests on a "could". Twist the hinge one way, there is no story, the other way, and ... well ... you get this flame bait
I disagree. There is a story here, though it's one without a clear villain, which slashdot will find uncomfortable.
It is a problem if third-party repair services are effectively blocked. As another commenter points out, it may even be illegal. However, I also see Apple's point. When you're trying to secure a device against hardware attack, the integrity of the components is critical, as is the ability to transmit data between them securely. Since it's all but impossible to keep the various communication
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When you're trying to secure a device against hardware attack, the integrity of the components is critical
If you are relying on the integrity of components then you are doing it wrong and are completely screwed anyway.
The scenario you describe where the attacker replaces components in the machine is both far fetched and wouldn't be prevented by the T2 chip, because they could simply replace the T2 chip itself as well. EM sniffing is movie plot stuff - you would have to get the probes in the machine while the victim is authenticating themselves, good luck with that.
Other manufacturers produce secure machines, ce
Ever play an old Nintendo? (Score:2)
I don't want DRM in my products because not only does it mean the device isn't really mine but it means I've got on
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The protection MCU on the console mainboard would hold the CPU in reset if it couldn't conduct the "magic handshake" with the corresponding MCU in the cartridge. If you disconnected the line from the protection MCU output to the CPU's reset input, it would defeat the protection for the most part.
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"...the T2 chip could render a computer inoperable..." and it went on from there. The hinge of this whole story rests on a "could". Twist the hinge one way, there is no story, the other way, and ... well ... you get this flame bait
You know, stuff that matters.
You're right. This is fear mongering. There is no way Apple would ever try to block users from modifying their hardware with third-party components.
Re: News for nerds (Score:2)
Maybe itâ(TM)s because you donâ(TM)t.
Some of you replace you iDevices every 2 years, and not the recommended every 3 months.
Face it, you donâ(TM)t deserve to be able to repair your own devices. If you cared about Apple, youâ(TM)d simply replace them.
But no, youâ(TM)re all special. Itâ(TM)s YOUR device because YOU paid for it and YOU want to repair it ... you you you you you.
You disgust me. Th
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Apple has already blocked the installation of Linux by having the T2 chip disable all internal storage when you try. They have form with repairs too, such as the 3rd party iPhone home button/fingerprint scanners being rejected. Even the last MacBook Pro they released removed the data recovery header so that if the mobo dies you can't get anything off the soldered-down SSD any more.
There is a clear pattern here. Apple has always hated third party repairs, or giving users control of their computers and phones
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Apple has already blocked the installation of Linux by having the T2 chip disable all internal storage when you try.
Don't install to the internal storage. Thunderbolt is plenty fast enough to host an external bootable drive. Set the external to target mode and you're off to the races.
Apple T2: Judgement Device (Score:2)
Can't wait for "Apple T3: Rise of the Machinations" and "Apple Sustentation"
Who cares? (Score:1)
Having gone through the age of build-it-yourself computers, all I can say is WHO CARES??? I don't remember the last time I opened any of my old computers to change anything. All I see here is Windows people complaining about Apple computers they'd never even buy. PHHHHIIITT!!
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RAM that did not get a code entered to approve it.
That "changes" their computer and any approved backups.
No more data to read from the computer. No more external backup.
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No-fix also = no hack (Score:1)
I 100% understand the "but we cannot repair it" factor.
I also very much like they "they cannot hack it factor" too ... and yes, for specific devices until there is a method to keep the "feds" out, this to me an acceptable means of securing a device: no "skimmers" inserted into the print reader, no rogue devices onboarded elsewhere, and hopefully the memory/storage are protected to where they cannot be simply slipped onto another device for reading/decrypting too. (Sad, but this is how little I trust.)
Meh, its Apple what do you expect (Score:1)
Sort of what Apple has always pushed for and if you don't like it, don't buy Apple products. They have always been a bit snobbish about their stuff. Obviously people don't remember the Power PC chip era for Apple, talk about locked down hardware.
My next laptop (Score:2)
My next laptop is not going to be a mac any more. I need unixy behaviour, so a mac was fine. I like using my 2013 mac book pro. But being locked out of third party repair is a major detractment. So my next laptop will be a PC laptop running Linux.
Stop buying Apple (Score:3, Interesting)
The hardware quality advantage of MacBooks is long gone. OS X has become a pile of iCloud infested junk. There is simply no reason to buy an Apple product anymore. They've abandoned the power user and no longer innovate. The only thing they can do is build lock-in devices to try to keep customers on their stagnant technology.
I was using Mac laptops since the PowerPC days. I finally gave up and built myself a Linux laptop. Do I miss a few OS X specific apps? Yes. Am I glad to be off Apple's lock-in ecosystem: Hell yes. Even though I had backups I wanted to get the last day's work off my dead MacBook pro. Not so easy when the SSD is soldered to the motherboard. Thanks Apple for starting that trend.
Remmber Microsoft Palladium? (Score:2)
Can't get them fixed around here (Score:3)
Where I live, there isn't a repair shop within 100 miles, here in northeast Arkansas. I could never recommend a Mac to anyone I know, even someone heavily invested in the Apple ecosystem, because of this. It's the same story with their phones. Both of my parents have iPhones, and without an authorized repair shop anywhere nearby, not even within a 100 mile radius, I can't get them fixed without shipping them off somewhere, and being without the device for God knows how long. Meanwhile, there's an independent repair shop that will happily repair my Android phone same day within 10 miles.
Simple fact is, computers break eventually. Nothing runs forever. Apple's insistence that we use their repair shops, which for me might as well be on the moon, is just crazy. If you can't get the thing fixed when something goes wrong, be it a cracked screen or bad keyboard or whatever, it's just disposable. And Apple products are just too expensive to be disposable.
Violation of Magnussen-Moss Act (Score:5, Informative)
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This violates Federal Law, in particular the Magnussen-Moss Act (15 USC 2302(c)) requirement that says warrantors cannot require that only branded parts be used with the product in order to retain the warranty.
If that is true then Apple needs to be taken to court and I want to hear them make their case.
I don't know if Apple would win but I can imagine how the case would go. The issue would come down to keeping user data secure, much like we've seen in cases where the government has asked Apple to break their own encryption for the purposes of gaining data for a criminal investigation. They would likely argue that a third party repair is possible but it would not allow for the recovery of any data. If you want
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Take your pick. Do you want to be able to upgrade the SSD in the future on your Apple computer, or do you want that SSD secured from someone reading it without your permission? If you can find a way to eat your cake and have it too then I'd like to hear it.
What are you talking about?
Self-encrypting SSDs with standardized connectors have existed for years. You just take the drive out when you send it in for repair.
Apple is just being difficult because they want you to buy their hardware. The solder in their RAM, use special dongles and drop headphone jacks for the same reason.
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Apple is just being difficult because they want you to buy their hardware. The solder in their RAM, use special dongles and drop headphone jacks for the same reason.
How do any of those things encourage one to buy their hardware? BTW, there's nothing special about the dongle, nor is dropping the decades old headphone jack unique to Apple.
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The warranty will be intact, it just won't work any more. The law needs to catch up, like the GPL did many years ago with V3 that blocked Tivoization and other technical means of taking away your rights.
Same with DRM. You still have your first sale doctrine right to sell it second hand, it just won't be worth anything because DRM bricks it as soon as you do.
What about the external power supply? (Score:2)
Looks like you can still replace that. Looks like Apple messed up there.
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The power supply has actually gone the other way, instead of a proprietary apple power supply it now uses standard USB-C. Hopefully the days of each laptop having its own non standard power supply are numbered and i can keep several USB-C at home and office.
can they use this lock in ram / cpus? (Score:2)
Just think of this with tim cooks face and the word NON APPLE HARDWARE no mac os for you.
https://giphy.com/gifs/no-jura... [giphy.com]
Just another reason to buy elsewhere (Score:2)
Just another reason to buy elsewhere. Apple was never great at debugging but it's progressed to downright awful. Any luck with that overheating wireless charger?
You know they are retarded (Score:2)
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Easy fix (Score:2)
That T2 chip seems to have a strange effect on my Credit Card anytime I try to purchase an Apple product with such hardware installed.
Guess I'll have to go buy something else . . . . . .
Doesn't matter (Score:1)
The odds of someone that has the slightest idea what they are doing also buying a Mac seems very remote.
For the old people and tech-ignorant that buy these devices, it won't make the slightest difference.
This will only prevent 3rd party shops from working on Apple hardware.
Let the fools and their money part.
Thanks god I do not need or depend on Apple Macs (Score:2)
it's about locking you! (Score:2)
forget about the poor 3rd party repair services, this is about you, the customer.
the T2 chip is pure evil, it prevents to use of other OS's, it prevents self-repair (or any repair not by apple).
this is all about locking the customer.
ofcourse, Apple customers probably don't even care.
Walk Away (Score:1)
I stopped buying Sony equipment when they started putting viruses on their DVD's. You've all bitched and moaned to Apple, and in response, they spit on you and called you suckers. WALK AWAY! Spend your money elsewhere.
Correct Apple's action by not buying Apple Product (Score:1)
There's one way to correct this. Hit Apple where it counts, in the pocketbook. I did. I was tired of the hobbled IOMMU in my late 2013 MacPro Desktop.
I replaced it with a Haydes NUC Canyon. It is fast! I've got Bionic Beaver running, I built a hackintosh using an AMD eGPU (the onboard VEGA Mwasn't supported yet) Installed the egpu Wrangler hack and popped my GTX970 in my Akitio Node (Replaced the low end AMD GPU card that I initially used for the hackintosh build). Now I have Linux, MacOS, an
exit strategy (Score:2)
We're probably going to buy the Mac mini i5 anyway, to replace my wife's 2008 iMac, with a game plan to run it into the ground for another eight to ten years.
Personally, I don't see the repairability problem. Unless we go crazy writing to the internal storage (unlikely), there's very little to break on this system. Everything but two memory sticks is soldered down. The vast majority of peripherals are tangled up a giant dongle mess behind the cute little box. Those will break and can be unplugged.
Apart from
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Re: Fuck the iTarded (Score:2)
I know, Inknow, we all need a dream. I mean, how many times can you tell your âpartnerâ(TM) that her jeans donâ(TM)t make her ass look big?
And they totally donâ(TM)t. Itâ(TM)s her ass that makes her ass look big, amirite?
Awww yeah, you know what time it is ... high five up top!
So, yeah, I donâ(TM)t blame you. Iâ(TM)d be all âoefuck fuck fuckity fuck motherfucker âoe too.
Just make sure you clean your piss o
Re: Fuck the iTarded (Score:2)
donâ(TM)t worry, just tell them that you had a Twinkie for lunch. Fine, a case of Twinkies.
You made Lil Kim look like an amateur, though.
Iâ(TM)m sure Apple will richly reward you for your loyalty. No, really, any day now they totally are going to be all like âYo thanks dawg, hereâ(TM)s a free Mac Pro!â(TM)
Any day now. Just wait, youâ(TM)ll see.
I mean it.
Just wait.
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not one controlled mainstream media outlet carries the story.
You're full of crap. [nytimes.com]
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Changed your meds again, eh?