Energy Department Proposes Funding For Ohio's First Offshore Wind Project 137
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: An energy development group has been working for years to put together Ohio's first offshore wind project. That might sound odd for a state so far from the sea, but the benefits of offshore wind (strong, consistent gusts and relative proximity to major population centers) translate to wind turbines that are placed in freshwater, too. Consequently, an area eight miles off Ohio's Lake Erie coastline is slated to see six new 3.45 megawatt (MW) turbines as part of a 20.7MW pilot installation. On Thursday, the Department of Energy (DOE) issued an Environmental Assessment stating that proceeding with the plan would not cause any "impact to the human environment." In an additional finding published by the DOE this week, the department added that it did not believe that the offshore wind project would cause significant damage to migratory birds, either. Finally, the DOE proposed an unspecified amount of funding for the project, which will be the first freshwater offshore wind project in the US and one of the first offshore wind projects overall. The Lake Erie Energy Department Corporation (LEEDCo) and Norwegian investor Fred Olsen Renewables (FOR) will be developing the "Icebreaker" project, as the turbine installation has been called. "Interestingly, the turbines will be secured to the lake using a 'Mono Bucket' foundation, with a suction-based design that's similar to what's been used on offshore oil-drilling platforms in the North Sea," reports Ars. "The design, LEEDCo says, uses 'the best and lowest-cost technology for sites 25 meters and less.'"
Re:Offshore Energy (Score:5, Insightful)
I see where you're going with this and it's an interesting concept.
We could drain the lake somewhat; fill in some of the shore with, say, plastic debris, and use the new shallows as oil flats much like salt-flat technology.
Peasants (refugees and immigrants) could go out each day with plastic bottles and collect the oil floating atop the liquefied shallows and pour those into the hold of an Exxon (Valdez class) tanker that will sail out to sea, follow the coast line to Port Arthur, Texas and deliver to the Saudi Arabian-owned refinery complex there.
It's a win-win.
The plan does not include the use of coal yet, but that could be worked in somehow.
Perhaps we could ship it in to keep the peasants warm in winter and to provide pot-bellied stoves for nourishment.
Not addressed is the hit corporate prisons will take when we divert the slave trade from corporate prisons to oil farms, but we can craft some laws where it's not only illegal to be driving while Black, we could expand that to walking while Black.
I can't think of everything.
I'll leave that to the fossil fuel lobbyists as I finish my bottle of water.
Re: Waste of tax dollars (Score:2)
They told Trump they were giant coal powered fans that would blow illegal immigrants back across the lake.
About time (Score:2)
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There are well over a dozen nuclear power plants on the Great Lakes shorelines already. How many more do you want?
About 100. The USA has about 100 nuclear power plants now providing 20% of our electricity, which leaves plenty of room for growth. Given our ability to use nuclear power to synthesize hydrocarbons it's now possible for nuclear power to displace not just other electricity sources but to also displace the drilling for fossil fuels.
I'm not suggesting we rely on nuclear power to the exclusion of all other energy, only that we might be best served if we followed the French energy policy and got 70% or more of
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As to Nukes, we should allow only 4th gen with PASSIVE safety systems. Anything that requires active is a disaster in the making.
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Secondly, those 7 are getting OLD. They really need to start being replaced. Coal is NOT an option. And we should stop doing Nat Gas as well. CO2 is a real issue, not imaginary.
Third, there WERE more nuke power plants that operated around the lakes that are now gone, but the land is still undeveloped. You have cooling, towers, etc. Those are IDEAL to put NuScale and later, reactors that can burn the 'waste'. For example, Zion power plant was shut do
Re: About time (Score:2)
I suppose there is probably a fuck ton of highly radioactive spent fuel still on-site at those shut down reactors. Just sitting around in temporary storage, waiting...
Waiting for a real solution to the spent fuel disposal nightmare. Waiting for natural disaster. Waiting for an enterprising terrorist. Waiting for the natural deterioration over time and failure of containment systems. The nuclear waste will long outlive any of us. It has plenty of time to wait...
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As it is, if we really want to get rid of it, simply re-start YUCCA and put it down there. BUT, that would be a true waste of fuel.
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Chernobyl and Fukohama were old systems and not designed to be PASSIVELY safe. IOW, they required ppl along with electricity, to be actively safe.
Chernobyl: A combination of inherent reactor design flaws and the reactor operators arranging the core in a manner contrary to the checklist for the test, eventually resulted in uncontrolled reaction conditions.
Fukishima: However, the tsunami disabled the emergency generators that would have provided power to control and operate the pumps necessary
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Fukushima was designed at least to prevent a core melt down, and failed at that.
Or more precisely, if a melt down happens: prevent escape of the fuel into the environment, and it failed at that.
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If they had had electricity, it would have been fine.
And no, it was NEVER designed to prevent escape into environment if a melt down occurs.
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And no, it was NEVER designed to prevent escape into environment if a melt down occurs.
Yes it was, all old school reactors are designed for that: but failed in Fukushima. E.g. TMI (it did not fail though, but was designed for preventing it, or more precisely: coping with it.)
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Only a fool thinks that they can contain a true meltdown and nuke engineers are NOT fools. There has NEVER been a single reactor design that can contain a full blown meltdown and yes, NRC never approved something that claims that they were meltdown proof. That is why the original systems were designed to PREVENT meltdowns with active avoidance systems. Now, the new designs are to prevent them with passive systems. NuScale is a great example.
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The old designs I'm aware of, and that are those we have since the 50s and 60s and 70s in Germany have below the containment vessel a "special designed" bath tub that is supposed to capture molten fuel and distribute it over a huge area to cool it down so far that it is solid and can not melt through into the ground water.
No idea about what designs you are talking.
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The performance of the reactors at Fukushima would be relevant to evaluating the future of nuclear power if anyone suggested building reactors like them again.
What you are arguing is that we should stop building airplanes because the Wright Brothers' Flyer was such a poor design.
Japan doesn't have the same kind of access as other nations to coal, wind, hydro, solar, or whatever to provide their energy needs. It's nuclear power or the lights go out. Any claims of some future energy source as a solution is
Re: About time (Score:1)
Actually, you're pretty hardcore at demanding reactors being built without regulatory oversight or proper consideration of flaws, so you are responsible for it.
Of course, since none of them will do it anyway without tens of billions ib tax dollars, we're fortunately spared the problem. They never get past pouring concrete.
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We need nuclear power or the lights go out.
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Japan doesn't have the same kind of access as other nations to coal, wind, hydro, solar, or whatever to provide their energy needs.
Sorry, blindseer. You honour your name again.
WHY DON'T YOU LOOK ON A MAP TO SEE WHERE JAPAN ACTUALLY IS?
Japan is predestined to be run on Wind and Solar.
many nations will face the same problems as energy demands grow with development and access to oil and coal thins out.
Energy demand in the first world, and that includes Japan: is not growing!!!
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Where Chernobyl and Fukohama not enough for you? There is no such thing as a safe nuclear reactor. LNG is the way to go.
That's some messed up logic.
There's no such thing as a safe car, therefore we should not drive.
There's no such thing as a safe airplane, therefore we should not fly.
There's no such thing as safe food, therefore we should not eat.
There's no such thing as safe surgery, therefore we should no longer perform surgery.
Natural gas is far more dangerous than nuclear power. Here's some proof:
https://cmo-ripu.blogspot.com/2018/08/why-i-favor-nuclear-power.html
If safety of your energy sources concern you then nuclear
Re:About time (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no such thing as a safe car, therefore we should not drive ... There's no such thing as safe food, therefore we should not eat.
Those are silly analogies. What are the alternatives to driving cars or eating food?
But nukes have good alternatives: solar+wind+storage.
The biggest issue is not even safety, but economics. Solar and wind are cheaper and declining in price. Nukes are expensive and getting more so. The "standardized" AP1000 design was supposed to cut costs. Guess what? It didn't.
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Solar+Wind is fine for SOME of the energy, but, not for major, let alone ALL OF the electricity.
We need to have Baseload power available at all time. And storage only lasts a short time.
Add in geo-thermal for baseload is a good way to go, but like hydro, wind, solar, etc it is limited to areas.
Again, WHEN yellowstone blows, or some of the major earthquakes in western USA/Europe, or in Japan, then wind/solar will plummet, and storage will last a couple of hours AT BEST.
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And no, solar can NOT do base-load.
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Does not matter.
As you don't even know what "base load" is.
From your other post:
And no, solar can NOT do base-load.
Wrong!
Here, read it and comprehend it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Baseload refers to the power that is provided/used all day long, it's the minimum power in a system over a period of time, usually 24 hours. Baseload is provided by systems that are difficult or impossible to start or stop quickly and can be depended upon to operate without interruption for long periods of time. Baseload plants are the most economically efficient, otherwise there would be no reason to put up with their lack of agility.
Other sources of power are used to take care of requirements above the ba
Re: About time (Score:2)
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So the hydro that supplies my power is not baseload as it can be turned on and off quite quickly?
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The "standardized" AP1000 hasn't even been operating long enough that anyone can make any kind of claims on the economics yet. Only one has gone online in the world and the four in the USA have not been completed yet. If you want to claim the AP1000 a failure before even a half dozen come online then why not make the same claims on wind and solar? We've seen all kinds of failures, cost overruns, poor performance, safety problems, and on and on, from wind and solar projects.
By your metric only the rarest
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I think that you will have a difficult time showing that Nukes are as cheap as Wind/Solar. Some of the new SMRs will LIKELY be, but still will take time to prove.
The real issue is that wind/solar can not provide base-load power. Even with battery storage, you still have LIMITED time energy. And have 10-50% of the sunlight cut (i.e. volcano), well, you have NO solar/wind based electricity.
As such, we NEED real base-load power, such as geo-thermal and nukes. And these should not compete aga
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hold on there.
I think that you will have a difficult time showing that Nukes are as cheap as Wind/Solar.
It's easy to show nuclear is cheaper than solar.
https://www.lazard.com/perspec... [lazard.com]
Solar is only cheaper than nuclear when there is no storage and done on utility scale, which means not on rooftops. Wind is cheaper than nuclear, and perhaps even with storage. I have nothing against wind except when people claim it, with solar and storage, can replace all else.
As such, we NEED real base-load power, such as geo-thermal and nukes. And these should not compete against wind/solar in economics, since they are in different classes.
We must evaluate wind and solar on cost along with nuclear if only because the advocates for wind and solar assert that wind and solar can displace nu
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It's easy to show nuclear is cheaper than solar.
https://www.lazard.com/perspec... [lazard.com]
Your citation says the OPPOSITE of what you claim:
Cost of grid-scale PV solar: 4.6 cents/kwh
Cost of nuclear: 11.2 cents/kwh
Even that is not a fair comparison, because it is looking at the cost of existing nukes, while the cost of NEW nukes is considerably higher.
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Your citation says the OPPOSITE of what you claim:
Cost of grid-scale PV solar: 4.6 cents/kwh
Cost of nuclear: 11.2 cents/kwh
It's only the OPPOSITE of what I claimed if you take one sentence out of context of the entire paragraph. This is schoolyard bully kind of logic that you are using to counter my argument. Grow up.
Also, how much does that solar power cost at midnight? I know what the cost of nuclear power would be but solar power is undefined as one cannot divide by zero.
Even that is not a fair comparison, because it is looking at the cost of existing nukes, while the cost of NEW nukes is considerably higher.
If you read the full report, or even the page with notes for that graph shown on the web page given, you will see that they did consider the costs of new
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The USA will never complete another nuclear reactor for landbased power.
Very likely true. The last attempt was in South Carolina, which halted construction last year [governing.com] after spending $9 billion.
Nuclear is dead in America until there are some radically new designs. Maybe thorium, maybe fusion. But no more pressurized uranium reactors will be built.
But nuclear is still moving forward in China and India. China has 13 nuclear power plants under construction.
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I didn't realize that Vogtle [washingtonpost.com] had moved to South Carolina and been halted.
However unwise it may be, you still cannot say that.
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Many people insist that nuclear is expensive, but that applies to virtually all nascent technologies.
Nuclear is different. Over the last seven decades, nuclear has steadily become MORE EXPENSIVE.
No other technology has followed that path.
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Those are silly analogies.
Only in that specific way. If we used the nuclear approach for cars we would all drive 60s era cars without seat belts, ABS, crumple zones, or any of the other safety advancements we have over the years. Nuclear should be compared to cars more often, then maybe like every other industry there would have been major leaps in safety.
But instead we run ancient reactors because the NIMBYs won't let anyone build new ones.
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However, we still need an energy matrix, not a single source.
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There's no such thing as an insightful reply, therefore I shall not type.... ...wait....damn.
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And there is absolutely no drawbacks to releasing and burning yet more carbon.
There is absolutely no such thing as a safe carbon-based energy facility, and those will kill far more people than 10 Chernobyl-scale events could.
Plus, as others have pointed out, Chernobyl was the result of a piss-poor reactor design, complete lack of any kind of attempt at fail-safe containment, and extra-ordinary operations that should have never been done.
A triple-decker shit sandwich that is amazingly easy to not repeat by d
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Don't go bringing "facts" into his knee-jerk FUD baseless arguments!
Don't you know that every waterway that serves as coolant for nuclear reactors ends up glowing in the dark?
Birds (Score:1)
At least the chopped birds won't be scattered about on the ground creating an unsightly mess.
It's a bit of evolution in action. (Score:2)
Bird populations figure out how to avoid the blades - I've watched them play around the blades as they spin.
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Bird lives matter.
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Bird lives matter.
Annual bird deaths in America from wind turbines: 60,000
Annual bird deaths in America from domestic cats: 3,700,000,000
Pro-tip: If you grind up cats and put them into an anaerobic digester, you can produce bio-gas.
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Cats are nature.
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What about windows? Number of birds killed by buildings, close to a billion annually, perhaps 10% of the total bird population and only second to cats. (US numbers)
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
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The idea that wind turbines kill huge amount of birds is bollocks. /. often enough) that cats kill close to 4billion birds per year in the US is bollocks, too.
However the idea (yeah, that was discussed on
If every american had a cat, his cat would need to go outside and kill 10 birds per year. While you now can shift around numbers about how many cats there are in the US, you can shift up the numbers of bird kill per cat.
I have no clue why people have problems with big numbers. They are just numbers ... lik
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If every american had a cat, his cat would need to go outside and kill 10 birds per year.
I grew up on a dairy farm and as much as Dad hated cats we kept them around to keep the birds and mice out of the cattle feed. We purposefully fed the cats very little as that prompted them to hunt for their food. If we fed them nothing then they might wander off to another farm or simply go feral and become pests, we had to "train" them to behave around people and the cattle. The older and bigger cats could easily eat 10 birds in one day. Many of these birds were not large and so they'd have to eat a l
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A quick Google search tells me that there's easily 100 million domestic (not necessarily "domesticated", as in always confined to a house) cats in the USA.
Yeah, and those who kill birds are the minority.
Again: to make your numbers fit: every cat would need to contribute a huge deal in bird kills, but they don't.
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Domestic cats don't hunt bald eagles. Bald eagles hunt domestic cats. Bald eagles are killed by windmills, proven by the wind power industry lobbying the Obama administration successfully for kill permits of several protected species of eagles.
If domestic cats killing birds bother you then you'd want more windmills. Fewer eagles lost to windmills means more eagles to hunt cats.
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One pair of big birds may kill two thousand mice per summer. This is why in some areas of Europe there is an invasion of mice nowadays.
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False equivalence. There are spectacularly more species and variety of birds than one.
Cats can kill all the starlings and pigeons they want, but those birds are not the ones being smacked by wind turbines. Wind turbines disproportionately affect large birds, which are also more likely to be endangered species.
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My proof is in the link I gave earlier that you obviously didn't bother to click on.
There is no dispute that windmills kill birds, the only dispute is over how many. Right now that number is quite small but that's because we now get a very small percentage of our electricity from wind power. If there is going to be a large portion of our electricity from wind then we are going to have to take the number of birds killed seriously.
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Actually, I have read the article and no where does it actually say that windmills kill bald/golden eagles, just that power companies can operate even if it results in the deaths of up to 4,200 birds over thirty years.
"It’s unclear what toll wind energy companies are having on eagle populations, although Ashe said as many 500 golden eagles a year are killed by collisions with wind towers, power lines, buildings, cars and trucks."
So, I would argue, using your source, that there is no proof as to whethe
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Just because you passed your eyeballs over the words doesn't mean you understood what was written. They stated eagles were killed. You are trying to split hairs that they didn't specify the species of eagles killed. Bald eagles have been killed by windmills. Golden eagles have also been killed. As have other eagle species and other birds of prey. This is not under dispute.
Let's assume it's true that no bald or golden eagles were killed thus far. What we are seeing is an admission from the wind power
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Seems the biggest killer of large birds are power lines, at least in this article from 2003, http://www.sibleyguides.com/co... [sibleyguides.com]
The biggest killer around here of large birds may well be bullets and shot. The lakes are full of them and birds eat them, they go into the crop and bird gets lead poisoning.
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Sincerely,
Exxon-Mobile
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No I'm a concerned resident that lives in this region. Why does everything have to be about a big corporate conspiracy. I am concerned about the natural beauty of the region. There is nothing wrong with having that debate.
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I don't see your name on the "Ban billboards," list of protesters.
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Who's going to say "I was totally going to go fishing in Lake Erie, but I had to cancel because I didn't want to see those damn windmills"? Probably as many as say "I was going to visit the countryside in Holland, but I didn't want to see those damn windmills!"
Seriously, there are far uglier things in Lake Erie, like 5-mile Crib and freighters. And quite frankly, I find wind turbines to have an elegant beauty about them. At less than half the height of the Terminal Tower and eight miles off shore, they'll b
Re:Terrible Idea (Score:4, Funny)
I am concerned about the natural beauty of the region.
They are eight miles out. They are barely visible from the shoreline, even on a clear day.
There is nothing wrong with having that debate.
You really think you are going to win a debate based on the "natural beauty" of Cleveland, Ohio?
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Re:Terrible Idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Most of the Lake Erie economy depends on tourism. These will be a complete eyesore and will take away from the natural beauty the Great Lakes give. Lots of fishing, sailing and boating happen on Lake Eerie and its a way for people to get away and be out in nature. These will only detract and hurt the tourism of the region for the little amount of power they will generate.
Cargo ships are an eyesore, we allow them on Lake Erie.
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>> These will be a complete eyesore
Bullshit. You'll barely fucking notice them. And if you do, they'll look "pretty". You're a fucking shill. Go kill yourself. The rest of us will enjoy clean energy. Fucking worthless loser piece of shit. Just fucking kill yourself. You're a complete waste of oxygen. Just shut the fuck up!
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Go fuck yourself. It is not an honest debate. You are a complete over-entilted fucking prick.
Yes, they are. (Score:1)
Thank you for the complement. I'm glad you approve of the debate style I use against complete nonsense.
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I am having an honest anonymous debate.
Emphasis mine.
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Is there a lot of hot water flowing out of wind turbines?
No? Then what the fuck are you even talking about.
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oO!
I smell Butler's Jihad here!!
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Your kind of post pisses me off.
When you use passive weasel words like that, how the fuck are we going to be able to understand your position on the matter?
Are you OK with the goddam global warming cooling fan farm or not?
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You obviously don't fish.
We had this discussion back when Moby Dick was a minnow.
All your arguments preceded the proposed construction of offshore rigs in the Gulf of Mexico.
Sure, we've had explosions, oil leaks, and all that but those rigs are prime real estate for people who fish and dive.
Like birds playing games with turbine blades, fish flock (see what I did there) to the flora and fauna attracted to the rigs.
Divers take photos of those rigs juxtaposed against backgrounds of beautiful sunsets/rises.
The
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Offshore usually implies, they are so far away, you don't see them from shore. :D
However, your milage may vary
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You know what also takes away from the natural beauty the Great Lakes give?
Cleveland.
Let's do something about that, and it will also reduce energy demand making the wind farms unnecessary!
None of them do (Score:2)
"did not believe that the offshore wind project would cause significant damage to migratory birds"
None of them do. At least not as much as 0.3 cats.
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Or an ounce of pesticides.
Or a square mile of deforestation.
Or 1.0 Exxon Valdez.
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The real problem with large birds are the power lines, and most forms of power come with power lines. For small birds, it is cats and buildings.
http://www.sibleyguides.com/co... [sibleyguides.com]
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Inevitable (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought subsidies were bad, "corporate cronyism" (Score:2)
Stop the subsidies, it's just corporate welfare. Claiming that wind power has some kind of exemption because it's "green" is only admitting that "green" energy cannot survive competition.
End all energy subsidies. That means coal and nuclear. What nuclear power needs is permission to proceed, not subsidies. At least end the subsidies on the federal level, that's beyond the powers of the Constitution.
We're only now seeing some real research into fourth generation nuclear power. The molten salt reactor wa
WTF IS WITH MEGAN GUESS (Score:2)
Energy Department proposes funding for Ohio’s first offshore wind project
There is absolutely nothing in the story about funding anything.
What this says is that and environmental impact assessment was done and there would be no impact to the human environment.
Whoop de doo. Give the project momentum and the people that oppose it will find their equivalent of the snail darter before you can say boo. What's more, there still is no mention of dollar one.
You get this continuously with her just yesterday she had the zero information EU CO2 capture story.
It's like she holds treats out f