ZTE Exports Ban May Mean No Google Apps, a Death Sentence For Its Smartphones (arstechnica.com) 139
New submitter krazy1 shares a report from Ars Technica: The U.S. government is going after another Chinese Android device maker. After shutting down Huawei's carrier deals and retail partners, the government is now pursuing ZTE. The U.S. Department of Commerce has banned U.S. companies from selling parts and software to ZTE for seven years. ZTE was caught violating U.S. sanctions by illegally shipping telecommunications equipment to Iran and North Korea. The company then made things worse by "making false statements and obstructing justice, including through preventing disclosure to and affirmatively misleading the U.S. Government," according to the Department of Commerce.
The latest news from Reuters raises even bigger issues for ZTE, though. A source told Reuters that "The Commerce Department decision means ZTE Corp may not be able to use Google's Android operating system in its mobile devices." Android is free and open source and will probably remain free for ZTE to use without Google's involvement. Reuters' source is probably referring to the Google apps, which aren't sold to device makers but are carefully licensed to them in exchange for other concessions. The Google apps package includes popular services like Gmail and Google Maps, and it also unlocks the Play Store, Google Play Services, and the entire Android app ecosystem. For a market-viable Android device, the Play Store is pretty much mandatory in every country other than China. So while ZTE could conceivably source hardware components from non-U.S. sources, being locked out of the Play Store would devastate ZTE's smartphones worldwide.
The latest news from Reuters raises even bigger issues for ZTE, though. A source told Reuters that "The Commerce Department decision means ZTE Corp may not be able to use Google's Android operating system in its mobile devices." Android is free and open source and will probably remain free for ZTE to use without Google's involvement. Reuters' source is probably referring to the Google apps, which aren't sold to device makers but are carefully licensed to them in exchange for other concessions. The Google apps package includes popular services like Gmail and Google Maps, and it also unlocks the Play Store, Google Play Services, and the entire Android app ecosystem. For a market-viable Android device, the Play Store is pretty much mandatory in every country other than China. So while ZTE could conceivably source hardware components from non-U.S. sources, being locked out of the Play Store would devastate ZTE's smartphones worldwide.
Corporate deatch sentence? (Score:2)
Cool, I guess.. Though I would have used to on other companies first.
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Re: Corporate deatch sentence? (Score:5, Informative)
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Thanks
Can be installed (Score:3)
there is no legal way to download the Google Play Store and there is no legal way to download the google apps outside the Play Store.
There no legal ways to download those, yes.
There's a bout a gazillion of (illegal under US law) ways to download those.
Those ways are illegal in the US, but are very unlikely to be illegal in any country (like China) that doesn't give much fucks about anything intellectual-property-related (like copyrights, in this case).
An URL that links to some Chinese website hosting APKs for the above software and sideloads them is all about it takes.
Some custom ROMs ship with the google apps, which is illegal, but Google turns a blind eye on this practice. This will not be the case with ZTE.
But unlike the custom ROMs, ZTE's solution could be hosted outside of
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Almost no custom roms these days ship with Gapps. http://opengapps.org/ [opengapps.org] has made that unnecessary and often undesirable (as many custom rom users opt to go Googleless.)
It's not illegal to host or download the Gapps suite. It only becomes trouble if you attempt to use the apps on a non OHA certified device. At which point you have violated the license of the software, but the legality of that matter would depend on your jurisdiction (though this is probably illegal for anyone in the states.)
I don't know if Z
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They can't ship with Google apps installed
Sure ZTE can. It can ship phones with anything they like. The US DoJ/FTC is not going to go to China and arrest anyone for copyright infringement. Is the US going to sink Chinese ships carrying ZTE phones on the way to NK, Iran, etc because they 'pirated' Google apps? I don't think so.
Hell, as big a market as China is, Google and many other Silicon Valley giants could decide to relocate and become Chinese companies themselves, drop services/sales to Western nations, and end up with a larger market and more
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ZTE is stupid ! (Score:1)
ZTE relies too much of its products on US technologies
Unlike Huawei, which has made its own version of ARM chips, ZTE has none
Plus, ZTE relies too much on components from US companies, from antennas to chips and such
What has happened to ZTE is a reminder for everyone else --- do not base your products on US companies' products, or you might be meeting the same fate as that of ZTE
I suspect that lesson will be well learned by all companies outside the U. S. of A., and it gonna push China to re-double its effo
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ZTE relies too much of its products on US technologies
And also apparently needed the meager sales it must have had in North Korea, and thats before getting this ban hammer.
Looks to me like ZTE may be going out of business shortly, unable to compete anywhere on anything.
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Well, 93 million people die EACH DAY from gun violence;
Where did you get that figure from? If it were accurate, then almost 34 billion people die per year from gun violence.
Re: Corporate deatch sentence? (Score:2)
Life Imprisonment (Score:2)
In the EU, sure, the Google Play store is gonna be expected. However, I imagine there are scores of 3rd-world countries where most buyers never touch the Google Play store, and only run pirated apps via sideloading or sketchy 3rd-party stores (ya know, the ones filled to bursting with malware.) Remember back in the days of feature phones, when every carrier had their own software shop? ZTE could roll their own; it could have a few big names so they can say "we have X!", but otherwise be a ghost town.
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They can't get the big names in their alternate store either since most of the big names are American and would likely be prohibited from supplying their software to the ZTE store under the sanctions.
As crude as you put it, you put your finger on it. (Score:2)
As crude as you put it, you put your finger on it. (so to speak).
Seems like three alternatives might be possible
1. this is could be the day when china forks android, bases it on red star linux, and comes out with an embedded ChinaOS ending the Alphabet hegemony.
2. NVidia fills the gap. Less likely, Tizen or firefox.
3. ZTE just sells it's assets to a buyer, either an existing cell maker or to a start-up. and then continues making phones. only thing that dies is the corporate name.
Trade war could break out too (Score:2)
I suppose china might reply in kind.
1. Stop allowing exports of parts from foxcon to the USA.
2. End export of computer components to any company that sells to google unless they open source their entire OS.
that would tank the US stock market.
Food fight!
Foxcon in Schenzen (Score:2)
Foxcon may have it's headquarters in Taiwan but it manufactures and ships from PRC. So China has control of Foxcon exports and it's just gravy if Taiwan is forced to align itself with china against the US.
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Screwing over the US economy would only end up meaning that China would never be paid back the debt owed by the US. I don't think they want to shoot themselves in the foot.
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Agreed here. I feel like if either the US or China attacked the other's economy it would just be mutually assured destruction.
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The U.S. will pay back its debt, otherwise it would go into default and take down the entire world's finances. As of 2017, China held $1.7 Trillion in U.S. out of about $21 Trillion total U.S. debt. Much of that debt is held by entities in the U.S. including the SS account (and I believe Medicare, but I'm unsure about that one). The problem going forward is not the debt owed by China (or Japan), although they could cause problems if they wanted to stick it to the current alleged American administration. The
Tax Cut and Spend all the Way!!!! (Score:2)
Tax Cut and Spend all the Way!!!! GOP 2018!
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Yeah, tell me how far the previous administration sunk the US into debt before you spout off.
Re: Trade war could break out too (Score:2)
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How is 120% or so of GDP capable of being paid off in a year?
How bonds work (Score:2)
Screwing over the US economy would only end up meaning that China would never be paid back the debt owed by the US. I don't think they want to shoot themselves in the foot.
Sigh... That's not how it works. China holds treasury bonds which are readily sold in the open market unless you hold them to term. China can sell them on any bond exchange in the world or directly to third parties any time they want and there isn't a damn thing the US can do about it. The only problem really is finding buyers for that many bonds. Furthermore it would be absolutely insane of the US to try to not repay their debt. The value of the US dollar rests on the belief that the US (like a Lanist
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1) I can't see China stopping exporting to the US. That would hurt them as much if not more than hurt us.
2) I doubt China cares about open source
They knew what the rules were... (Score:5, Insightful)
... and whether you agree with them or not they broke them. If you want to trade with the US you don't break US sanctions, its pretty clear, and lying on top of it was just the cherry on the cake. Serves them right frankly.
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...and so do I. A full commitment is what we're looking for. We wouldn't get this from any other guy.
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It's great that we're actually punishing a business for their wrongdoing, but I think it's only happening because they're a Chinese company. What's the country that only punishes foreign companies while giving their own a pass again?
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There was an American company that sold sanctioned goods to Iran and went unpunished?
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I'm talking about corporate crime in general.
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Since Day 1, when the US Government made itself responsible for international trade with the USA?
a Death Sentence For Its Smartphones ? (Score:5, Interesting)
No Google Apps, a Death Sentence For Its Smartphones
Seriously?
Where can I get a phone that is sentenced to death? I sure as hell wish I could easily replace the too-instrusive and never asked for Google junk for better alternatives. And tell my mom how to do it for her phone as well.
I mean yes, I know that there is lineage OS, but that is not exactly mom-friendly. And installing F-droid is easy, but removing the Google junk is not. And every Android update brings more unwanted Google junk.
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> Where can I get a phone that is sentenced to death?
Seconded. Usually, I'd pay premium for some gadget if it is Google-free.
Re: a Death Sentence For Its Smartphones ? (Score:1)
Out of the toilet bowl and down into the sewer?
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There -are- no better alternatives.
Doesn't mean you can't have a perfectly functional phone however.
They can use alternative main apps and app-stores (Amazon, F-droid), so that things look good enough on display, but reviews will be brutal. Google apps could possibly be sideloaded also.
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You may get your wish now. ZTE isn't a small company and Chinese manufacturers have been shipping their own AOSP based systems for years. Maybe this is just the push they need to go world wide with them.
It also seems to have screwed Google's Go launch in the US pretty badly. Maybe they will look for a way around it, like moving their intellectual property to their Irish HQ so they can continue selling it to ZTE.
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No Google Apps, a Death Sentence For Its Smartphones
Seriously?
Where can I get a phone that is sentenced to death? I sure as hell wish I could easily replace the too-instrusive and never asked for Google junk for better alternatives. And tell my mom how to do it for her phone as well.
I mean yes, I know that there is lineage OS, but that is not exactly mom-friendly. And installing F-droid is easy, but removing the Google junk is not. And every Android update brings more unwanted Google junk.
Exactly! Google loses by someone not using their system, not the other way round.
ZTE will use Taiwanese chips and create its own version of android and store.
If ZTE plays it right, this might just be the right amount of disruption to create a new ecosystem for their phones.
Instead of creating low end, low margin phones, they might actually be forced to innovate and create something unique.
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Re: a Death Sentence For Its Smartphones ? (Score:2)
To be charitable, installing Lineage isn't mom-friendly but no OS replacement can be, so he really is just bitching.
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Where can I get a phone that is sentenced to death?
China, India, online from many places. Seriously look around. There are MANY devices out there that don't qualify for Play Services. The fact you haven't already got one just shows how much your post is more about hyperbole than actually caring about Google.
I wonder whom this will hurt more in the long run (Score:2)
I think the Chinese market is large enough to support a few major telecom equipment makers through domestic sales. Enough western companies are making huge concessions to be allowed to sell there.
So I guess if there is not already a flourishing market for non-Android phones, there will be one eventually. There goes one source of revenue from exports to China. In short, the Chinese can make do without us.
their own store (Score:3)
they keep using android, and just add their own store, which just copies over all the apk's from the google play store and done.
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That could technically 'work'... except that'd open them to a massive class action copyright lawsuit. Also they'd have to remove some DRM and that'd mean violating the DMCA. They'd never do business in the USA again, basically; worse than the 7 year ban they're currently subject to.
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they keep using android, and just add their own store, which just copies over all the apk's from the google play store and done.
Sounds easy . . . so that is why the US export laws are written to catch that.
If HP sells computers to folks in France, and those folks later sell them to Iran . . . HP is still on the hook.
By a coincidence out of the "Theater of the Hard to Believe" . . . I got a company internal email instructing us to review and obey US customs laws.
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That's known as a "re-export", and HP would be on the hook only if they had any knowledge that the French were going to take that action.
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It seems that the rest of the world increasingly has to choose if they want to do business with the US or with others. In loosely related news, Huawei has been excluded from US government business and is considering leaving the US market entirely.
In some cases, I guess US customs laws will just drive a wedge into US/Asian business relations. Without a winner.
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Google would be legally required to block them. Same as if ZTE set up another company to buy Google services and sell them on to ZTE.
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'murican gov, yeah. (Score:4, Insightful)
The Lifeline program was established by the Reagan Administration in 1985 to provide discounted phone services to low-income Americans. The program was expanded by the George W. Bush Administration in 2005 to include wireless services. Typically, these involve a modest prepaid service requiring no deposit, which includes a free cell phone, free minutes, and free texting. This program provides a basic need that many low-income individuals would not have access to otherwise.
In 2015 there were 12.6 million households enrolled in the program, most of them on Safelink, part of Tracfone.
Guess what brand phone they give out?
yup, ZTE
Soylent green is poor people!
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The Lifeline program doesn't pay out money for hardware, only for service. The recipient has to obtain their own phone. Many Lifeline service providers do give away cheap phones (ones that are ancient and won't sell, and/or recycled) however.
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The Lifeline program was established by the Reagan Administration in 1985 to provide discounted phone services to low-income Americans. The program was expanded by the George W. Bush Administration in 2005 to include wireless services. Typically, these involve a modest prepaid service requiring no deposit, which includes a free cell phone, free minutes, and free texting. This program provides a basic need that many low-income individuals would not have access to otherwise.
In 2015 there were 12.6 million households enrolled in the program, most of them on Safelink, part of Tracfone.
Guess what brand phone they give out?
yup, ZTE
Soylent green is poor people!
That's disingenuous, deliberately misleading BULLSHIT
A short history of the ‘Obamaphone’ [federalnewsradio.com]
During the 2012 election, a viral video concerned something call the “Obamaphone.” A woman in Cleveland exclaimed she and all her friends were given “Obamaphones.” Free cellphones from the government! It registered in my mind as an oddball concept, but I never followed through. The term somehow got creatively twisted to sound as if Obama — the administration, or the campaign maybe — was buying votes with cellphones.
So what is the etiology of “Obamaphone”?
During the Obama administration, the FCC’s approach to universal service expanded. Congress in 2009 enacted a law ordering the FCC to develop its National Broadband Plan. The Obama administration, well into the internet and wireless age, agreed that broadband and cellular services are essential. So, yes, citizens of various federal programs could qualify for a cellphone — a basic one, not the latest iPhone or Galaxy — with a plan they receive under Lifeline.
The program has come back into the news in recent days, principally on conservative sites, because of a Government Accountability Office study of Lifeline, one of four FCC programs funded by the Universal Service Fund.
The fund itself has reached about $10 billion ...
So, cell phones weren't given out until Obama.
So, yeah, they're appropriately called OBAMAPHONES. And the program is rife with fraud - again appropriate for an Obama initiative designed to curry favor/buy votes.
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You an millions of other internet dweebs believe this crap.
Get the facts, please.
https://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/ [factcheck.org]
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The US government absolutely gets to decided what countries a Chinese company can sell products to that contain *US* parts. If ZTE didn't like that they should not have used US parts then they would be free to export to whoever they liked, subject to other similar export restrictions.
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It's no good having an embargo on Iran and North Korea, and then have it so you can sell to an intermediary that sells to Iran and North Korea. ZTE can do what they want, but if they do, US suppliers can't supply them.
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In this case, the restrictions are on US companies.
This.
Time for everyone to pack their bags and move their corporate home to Ireland.
The one thing I do not need on an A phone (Score:1)
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Stop watching T.V., it is bad for you.
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If back doors in general are a concern to you, and you cannot fully ensure their absence, it would make sense to have them "with" the entity least likely to create problems for you.
For instance, if you live in the western world, a back door for Chinese intelligence services might be less of a problem than one for the NSA. Because even if the Chinese know your darkest secrets, how likely do you think it is they will share with your local law enforcement?
Let's pray this goes through ... (Score:2)
... and ZTE moves to Sailfish OS as a fallback and we finally get more than one iteration of relyable non-Gooapple Touchscreen Smartphones. That would be so cool. Lineage is neat, but I would rather use Sailfish and some Phone that officially uses it. And not just as a side-project.
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ZTE's sales are 95% in the US, they won't be able to sell in the US for 7 years. This is a corporate death sentence and it's well deserved based on what they did.
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Chinese business paradigm (Score:2)
Dang... (Score:2)
I got my kids some ZTE ZMax Pro. These have been great phones. Decent screens, and fair amount of memory for a $179 phone. Best of all, USB Type-C which means I am not needing to buy replacement charging cables for my kids every two months. Way faster charging, way way way more durable.
Zero problems... which when you have 6-10 year olds using regularly, is pretty darn amazing.
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WW3 cancelled (Score:3)
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Gotta keep the Apple/Samsung duopoly going! (Score:2)
Simples (Score:1)
ZTE sells the company under a rebadged name, and they don't have a problem as long as major ZTE shareholders don't control the new company
Just as well... (Score:1)
The more notifications and auto-whatever settings I disable, the MORE start running!
Now I have to turn my cell phone off when I sleep because I keep getting these STUPID notifications about stuff I disabled; thinking it is an emergency call!
W T F ? ! ? ! ?