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Robotics

Robots Are Trying To Pick Strawberries. So Far, They're Not Very Good At It (npr.org) 131

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
Robots have taken over many of America's factories. They can explore the depths of the ocean, and other planets. They can play ping-pong. But can they pick a strawberry? From a report: "You kind of learn, when you get into this -- it's really hard to match what humans can do," says Bob Pitzer, an expert on robots and co-founder of a company called Harvest CROO Robotics. (CROO is an acronym. It stands for Computerized Robotic Optimized Obtainer.) Any 4-year old can pick a strawberry, but machines, for all their artificial intelligence, can't seem to figure it out. Pitzer says the hardest thing for them is just finding the fruit. The berries hide behind leaves in unpredictable places. "You know, I used to work in the semiconductor industry. I was a development engineer for Intel, and it was a lot easier to make semiconductor chips," he says with a laugh.
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Robots Are Trying To Pick Strawberries. So Far, They're Not Very Good At It More

Robots Are Trying To Pick Strawberries. So Far, They're Not Very Good At It

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  • I hate strawberries..

  • Click-Bait headline (Score:5, Informative)

    by apoc.famine ( 621563 ) <apoc.famine@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:58PM (#56299039) Journal

    Go half-way down the article, and you'll find this nugget:

    Also, he admits, the machine is slower than human hands. On the other hand, it has some advantages. It can work right through the night, when berries are cooler and less fragile.

    Another two years, he says, and this machine will be in the fields working for real. "There's quirks to work out, but it's getting there. We're close," he says.

    While the headline makes it seem like the robot picker is far from reality, the people working on it don't think so. And it's not just a minor project:

    Strawberry companies representing two-thirds of the industry are putting millions of dollars into this project.

    The robots are indeed coming for our jobs. Because if they can pick strawberries, what can't they pick?*

    *Their nose.

    • Not my jobs (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 )
      well, not these robots (these ones are coming for Migrant farm workers jobs). There's been a huge push in the US to kick the migrant farm workers out, mostly it's racially motivated. Nobody in America really wants to pick strawberries for a living. Aside from it being awful work with low pay it's seasonal, meaning you can't have a stable family even if the pay was OK.

      To be fair there's a lot of blue collar jobs (drywall, home repair, construction) that are also being done by illegal immigrants. As a tec

      • Nobody in America really wants to pick strawberries for a living. Aside from it being awful work with low pay it's seasonal, meaning you can't have a stable family even if the pay was OK.

        I think there is always some crop ready to go.
        As far as the low pay, well, that's because it's easy to find slave labor. It's not "racially motivated" to be against slavery.

        Sure, some business owners will say "But how can I be profitable without slaves?". Imagine how much more profitable they could be if they could grow opium or cocaine instead of food crops.

        • It's not "racially motivated" to be against slavery.

          Immigrant labor is not "slavery", and their jobs are superior to what they would be paid in Mexico, or otherwise they wouldn't come here.

          The worst racists are those that justify it by saying it is "for their own good".

          • The worst racists are those that justify it by saying it is "for their own good".

            Even worse are the racists who justify pittance wages and poor working conditions because the "jobs are superior" to what they'd get in their own country.

          • It's not "racially motivated" to be against slavery.

            Immigrant labor is not "slavery", and their jobs are superior to what they would be paid in Mexico, or otherwise they wouldn't come here.

            The worst racists are those that justify it by saying it is "for their own good".

            The worst racists justify exploitation by saying things like "it's worse where they are coming from".
            Do you feel good when you cover your eyes and rationalize like that?

            https://www.huffingtonpost.com... [huffingtonpost.com]
            http://www.floc.com/wordpress/... [floc.com]

        • I think there is always some crop ready to go.

          Not in the same place.

          Broadly speaking, the demand for labor starts in Mexico and makes it's way North through the US and into Canada. Then it jumps back South again for secondary harvests, heading not as far North. Then there's nothing to pick for about 3 months while late winter and early spring pass.

          There are not many US people who would take a job that requires them to move through three countries every year, for very low pay. The closest we have is the companies that operate the combine harvesters t

          • I think there is always some crop ready to go.

            Not in the same place.

            Broadly speaking, the demand for labor starts in Mexico and makes it's way North through the US and into Canada. Then it jumps back South again for secondary harvests, heading not as far North. Then there's nothing to pick for about 3 months while late winter and early spring pass.

            There are not many US people who would take a job that requires them to move through three countries every year, for very low pay.

            I defer to your knowledge on this but I point out you ended that comment with "for very low pay". People do a lot of things when the pay is better. I am related to people who do seasonal jobs and travel to where the work is, but these jobs pay well.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by dryeo ( 100693 )

            Here on the west coast of Canada, they fly the labourers up from Central America, house them, pay them $15+ an hour and fly them back home at the end of the season. Season is about 4 months, strawberries, raspberries and blueberries mostly.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by pnutjam ( 523990 )
              Many other countries do fine with higher wages for farm workers. It's like American Healthcare, conservatives want us to believe we're too stupid to get the same results.

        • I think there is always some crop ready to go.

          No, not nearly enough, which is why most farm workers are on seasonal permits and go home to Mexico the rest of the year.

      • There's been a huge push in the US to kick the migrant farm workers out, mostly it's racially motivated.

        Wrong, as even you admit at the end of your post.

        But even for labor that supposedly "no American will do" (which I find questionable since no-one has asked the huge homeless population of California if they'd be willing to try)... Even there, the issue is that if we did want to use really cheap labor from abroad - why can that labor not come in legally?

        Lots of people do not like illegal immigrants not be

        • "Canada and Mexico sure doesn't let just anyone in through the U.S.. Why should the U.S. not have as rigorous control over immigration as pretty much any country on Earth?"

          Fixed it for you. Do not, I repeat do not get caught in Mexico illegally. I guarantee you the US prison system is a daycare compared to there's.

          • Due to your poor grammar and the fact that thousands South Americans are streaming through the porous Mexican borders (as well as traversing the whole country), I am going to completely disregard your guarantee. Just like I would any statement made by the mendacious occupier of the WH.

        • But even for labor that supposedly "no American will do" (which I find questionable since no-one has asked the huge homeless population of California if they'd be willing to try)

          Do they need an engraved invitation or something? Homeless people are free to go take those jobs if they want them.

          why can that labor not come in legally?

          Because the government won't issue entry visas. Though this is a bad example, since strawberry picking (agriculture) is one of the few things the government does issue a tiny number of visas for. A Mexican trying to enter to do house painting, furniture hauling, or construction labor, for example, cannot legally enter the USA.

          • Re:Not a racial issue at all, issue of fairness (Score:4, Insightful)

            by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:20PM (#56300373)

            A Mexican trying to enter to do house painting, furniture hauling, or construction labor, for example, cannot legally enter the USA.

            Sure they can - if they apply for a visa.

            If the U.S. issued more temporary work visas people would be supportive. That's the point, people are not against Mexicans, they are against criminals. Entering illegally makes you a criminal, full stop - but again, it makes you a line-jumper which most people find significantly worse.

            • A Mexican trying to enter to do house painting, furniture hauling, or construction labor, for example, cannot legally enter the USA.

              Sure they can - if they apply for a visa.

              And, indeed, work visas are far undersubscribed, for lack of applicants.

              The problem is that some employers are no more interested in visa holding foreign workers than they are in citizens. Both can bring enforcement actions for illegal pay levels, working conditions, and so on. Illegals can't, because if they were to complain they woul

            • Sure they can - if they apply for a visa.

              Ok, tell me what visa category a house painter applies for. I did research on visas when I was getting ready to marry my fiancee from oversees and I did not see any category that would apply to a would-be painter. Assuming they are not diplomatic staff, not marrying anyone here, have no family here, aren't rich or some kind of model/actor/singer/celebrity, and not coming here as a student, the remaing work-allowing visas are H1B (must require at least a bachelor's degree) or agricultural work.

              Did I miss

            • the point is they're coming here competing for scarce jobs in a country where your entire quality of life depends on your job. That said, racism is also a factor. But it's foolish to ignore the impact on jobs & wages they have. The flood of cheap blue collar workers is no different than the flood of cheap H1-Bs. Heck, it's worse. We not only have the H2-B visa but a ton of illegals taking jobs. Yes, it's good for the economy for them to be here, but that hardly matters if you're stuck working at Walmart

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dryeo ( 100693 )

          Canada sure doesn't let just anyone in through the U.S.. Why should the U.S. not have as rigorous control over immigration as pretty much any country on Earth?

          Canada has had people coming from the U.S. since before there was a US. Started with the right wingers escaping from the Liberal revolution back in about 1775, then there was the black people seeking freedom, the natives escaping genocide, the gold miners seeking their fortune, the young people who didn't want to be forced to go to Vietnam to get killed or kill, people looking for medical help, and now a wave of people escaping Trump. Lots of stories about people walking across the border in 30 below weathe

        • Yes, jobs matter, but that's not what's getting folks to the polls. Not just that. Racism is definitely a factor. You're being childishly naive if you think otherwise. Google the Southern Strategy and read up on it. Racism, along with Guns and Abortion, form the Holy Trinity of wedge issues used to divide the working class.

          Thing is, this is complicated shit. Guys like Trump don't win just because of racists, but they don't win without racists. It's one of many factors. There's no black and white here (p

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Can we please stop with the 'nobody in America' bullshit? You always leave off the most imporant part - 'for the money being offered'. Who in their right mind would want to be bent over in a field all day picking berries when they can get $15/hr for 'Uh, you want fries with dat'? Hard work, such as picking berries and blue collar jobs SHOULD be paying more than so-called 'minimum wage' jobs, but they aren't. Why aren't they? Because their are people who can't get legal jobs and so they will do anything

        • Interestingly, the people in the wide open areas of CA (the strawberry areas in other words) are largely enthusiastically right-wing and they are the ones most interested in protecting the ability to bring in low-pay workers from other countries. I bet all the folks in the middle of the country (red mostly) would not appreciate paying for berries that cost $30/hr to pick. Those strawberries would probably double in price.

          Don't blame the left, it is mostly the right that gets the direct benefit of the chea

          • The left wants to bring in cheap labor from other countries and let them integrate. The people in power on the right want to bring in cheap labor from other countries from other countries and employ every power of government to keep them from gaining any rights that might make them more expensive or uppity, and keep their children and their children's children in a legal gray area for maximum exploitation. The voters on the right don't want to allow cheap labor in, and stupidly think that letting the cheap

            • Yes. The right either lacks critical thinking skills or has been thoroughly and completely brainwashed. They fervently believe that we've always been at war with Eastasia.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by pnutjam ( 523990 )

          And thus we would see the folly of paying $15/hr for a do-nothing job at McD's.

          McD's makes about $18k per worker after wages, strawberry profits are much slimmer.

      • There has been no push to kick Migrant Farm workers out, it's a legitimate visa and they have a huge quota that can't come close to being filled. That wasn't always true. The problem is that because of NAFTA it's actually better wages for those Migrant Farm workers to stay in Mexico doing the same work for the same wage where the cost of living is 1/10th what is here. Then the produce is exported north.

        That's the problem California vegetable and fruit farmers face, no workforce to pick the crops because tho

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by pnutjam ( 523990 )
        Yeah, I think that's the hardest part. Rural communities have emptied out, so you have to bring in workers from outside the community and most American's don't need to and aren't used to migratory work patterns.

      • mostly it's racially motivated.

        Or, we hate the fact that non-citizens don't have to follow the law, while citizens are expected to? Nah, that can't be it...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dj245 ( 732906 )

      Go half-way down the article, and you'll find this nugget:

      Also, he admits, the machine is slower than human hands. On the other hand, it has some advantages. It can work right through the night, when berries are cooler and less fragile.

      Another two years, he says, and this machine will be in the fields working for real. "There's quirks to work out, but it's getting there. We're close," he says.

      While the headline makes it seem like the robot picker is far from reality, the people working on it don't think so. And it's not just a minor project:

      I have been hearing that fruit-picking robots are "nearly there" for years now. I'm sure it will happen someday but any statement that someone is "close" should be taken with a salty grain.

    • Because if they can pick strawberries, what can't they pick?* *Their nose.

      Ha you think nose picking is safe? You're not looking at the big picture. Robots aren't constrained by the size and shape of human noses, they can be designed with whatever kind of nose is convenient.

      In the future, robots will have large noses with perfectly rectangular nostrils that match there robo-fingers exactly. And then robots WILL replace toddlers completely.

  • Easier? (Score:3)

    by TechyImmigrant ( 175943 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @01:59PM (#56299047) Homepage Journal

    >and it was a lot easier to make semiconductor chips

    If you have 6 biliion dollars to spend on equipment

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by skids ( 119237 )

      The reasonable way to do this would be to have humans control robots at first, from nice air-conditioned, possibly even remote, venues, and have the machines just record how the humans move their parts and build up a data source to train AI from. Then you'd have a much better training set, and be technologically prepared to have a small workforce of trained machine operators jump into tasks and take over on the diminishingly rare occasion that a machine is presented with a situation it is unfamiliar with.

  • Any 4-year old can pick a strawberry, but machines, for all their artificial intelligence, can't seem to figure it out. Pitzer says the hardest thing for them is just finding the fruit. The berries hide behind leaves in unpredictable places.

    Can't the robot's patented BerryFind(TM, patent pending) technology collect video, then stream it to the desktop, where people can click on leaves to move or berries they see? That way they could assist the robot in berry hunting-seeking in an entirely non-ominous way.

    • Stream it? Just live trace it as cartoon animation and make it a Facebook game. If Farmville is any indication, we'll see free workers freely recruiting more free workers.

      • Lol. It would probably work too if done right. Add in some bitcoin remuneration and the ability to pay for robot upgrades and I think you'd have the win!

  • Just like anything robots do. They may not be great at it the first time but they'll get better.

  • Neither are most Humans (Score:3)

    by DarthVain ( 724186 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:28PM (#56299269)

    Or at least not this Human.

    Many years ago during the summer between University semesters I was unable to find a conventional job. My parents wanted me to to try anything, so after much cajoling I tried becoming a professional strawberry picker... It didn't turn out so well. Those that do it for real work, are really good at it, and probably a bit crazy as well. At the time in the mid-late nineties minimum wage where I was located was 5.85$ I think. Strawberry picking you were paid by volume. After working for a couple weeks, I figured out one day that I was probably pulling in less than 2$ an hour because I was so slow at it. Not willing to face my parents without seeming to give it at least the old college try, I dutifully drove to the farm each morning, parked my car by the side of the road, and read a book all day, returning at the end of the day. I did this for a couple more weeks, until I could finally go and say I tried but it really wasn't working out. It is really hard, dirty, hot work...

    Best left to the Robots, or at least once they figure it out...

    • After working for a couple weeks, I figured out one day that I was probably pulling in less than 2$ an hour because I was so slow at it.

      And if they weren't shady, they'd be legally required to pay you the difference to get you to minimum wage (at least in the US). They could certainly fire you when they realize you aren't worth it, but minimum wage should be all yours.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by uncqual ( 836337 )

        There are some exceptions [dol.gov] to minimum hourly wage for agricultural workers, for example:

        Additional exemptions from the minimum wage and overtime provisions of the Act for agricultural employees apply to the following:
        [...]
        Local hand harvest laborers who commute daily from their permanent residence, are paid on a piece rate basis in traditionally piece-rated occupations, and were engaged in agriculture less than thirteen weeks during the preceding calendar year [...]

        It seems likely that Discgolferusa fell int

    • " I dutifully drove to the farm each morning, parked my car by the side of the road, and read a book all day"

      So this individual figured he was only making $2 per hour, because he really didn't want to put any effort in to it.And this individuals response was to earn nothing and lie. Probably still living in mommy and daddy's basement!

      Just my 2 cents ;)
      • No, he said he was only earning $2/hr because he was too slow. In other words, he was incompetent at that particular job and he has admitted it. The parking in his car all day was just to fool his parents.

      • OK "oldgraybeard" with the 7 digit ID...

        I moved 2000km away from home when I was 18, and I've been working in the IT field for almost 20 years now.
        I did plenty of manual labor jobs while at University just fine, however picking strawberries just wasn't one of them (hence the story).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dj245 ( 732906 )

      Or at least not this Human.

      Many years ago during the summer between University semesters I was unable to find a conventional job. My parents wanted me to to try anything, so after much cajoling I tried becoming a professional strawberry picker... It didn't turn out so well. Those that do it for real work, are really good at it, and probably a bit crazy as well. At the time in the mid-late nineties minimum wage where I was located was 5.85$ I think. Strawberry picking you were paid by volume. After working for a couple weeks, I figured out one day that I was probably pulling in less than 2$ an hour because I was so slow at it. Not willing to face my parents without seeming to give it at least the old college try, I dutifully drove to the farm each morning, parked my car by the side of the road, and read a book all day, returning at the end of the day. I did this for a couple more weeks, until I could finally go and say I tried but it really wasn't working out. It is really hard, dirty, hot work...

      Best left to the Robots, or at least once they figure it out...

      I had a similar experience picking potatos and blueberries. I did it when I was 12 or so. Both are backbreaking labor that paid by volume/weight. I think I lasted 2 weeks at the potato farm. The tractor dug the potatos up but they had to be put into baskets and then transferred to barrels. I lasted 3 days at the blueberry field. In both places, there were hispanic kids who couldn't have been more than 8 years old who were putting me to shame. They were fast and they never seemed to get tired.

      This w

      • I've found picking blueberries to not be physically difficult, but it is a rather unproductive activity. Blueberries are small, and in one 6 hour stint at a commercial pick-it-yourself farm I managed only 22 pounds. Perhaps I could improve with practice, but there's a reason blueberries aren't cheap.

      • Was pretty much the same time, summer of 1995 or 1996 can't remember. While I wasn't so young, neither were the rest. I'd say it was mostly older immigrants. Many sang while they worked which was nice, some talked to themselves it seemed (hence the crazy comment). I think in the end, my parents just didn't want me hanging around the house doing nothing, so in the end that was accomplished more less.

    • Oh. I was gonna say, "a couple of weeks??" Shoot, I lasted all of one fully day. I've had some shitty jobs - literally, when I cleaned toilets - but picking strawberries was one of the worst.

      • Yeah same, I did plenty of hard manual labor jobs, mover, landscaping, groundskeeper, etc... I recall moving laundry and dryer machines down narrow basement staircases by myself as not being so fun, and cutting down vast stretches of invasive hawthorn trees which no amount of leather gloves or clothing could keep out the poisonous thorns as not so fun. I'd do either again in a heartbeat before I'd go strawberry picking for profit again.

  • When it comes down to it, machines are very specialized. If we are going to build something, it usually is worth it to min-max it all the way to do one thing as well as possible.

    Worse, computers are really only good at one particular type of thinking, which I like to call 'math pushed to the limit'. We keep figuring out new ways to push math to do more, but when it comes down to it, computer programming lacks the massive non-math based methods that humans use. Compared to computers, humans can do math,

  • They DON'T have intelligence (Score:4, Insightful)

    by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:34PM (#56299331)

    All they have is algorithms, data, and a glorified table lookup.

    There is no fucking intelligence in these machines.

    If they _actually_ had intelligence they could figure out the process _themselves._

    i.e.
    How Smart Are Crows? | ScienceTake | The New York Times [youtube.com]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci... [dailymail.co.uk]

  • Here's the bizarre part (Score:3)

    by SlaveToTheGrind ( 546262 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @02:41PM (#56299401)

    Not too terribly long ago we were told these were jobs that Americans wouldn't do. Now apparently we're to believe they're jobs nobody will do:

    Strawberry companies representing two-thirds of the industry are putting millions of dollars into this project. Gary Wishnatzki, the owner of Wish Farms, got the whole thing started. The reason, he says, is that it's getting more and more difficult to find enough people to pick his berries.

    "The fact of the matter is, if we don't solve the problem of this labor shortage with automation, the industry's up for a big challenge ahead. The price of fruit's going to be much higher," he says.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      The fact of the matter is they want exponential productivity growth and not willing to spend the money to hire more pickers. Picking berries is such a fundamental basic task, there probably is not a whole lot you can do to make a single person more productive after a week or two in the field learning how to quickly identify the berries ready for picking and pick them with minimal damage, it is not a task that can be improved by certain percentages every single year after a certain point without just having

    • Re:Here's the bizarre part (Score:4, Interesting)

      by jeff4747 ( 256583 ) on Wednesday March 21, 2018 @04:29PM (#56300437)

      You have to remember wages in this discussion.

      "American's won't do that job" is what is said. They leave off "for the wage we are willing to pay".

      So they import undocumented workers who will accept lower wages because we've created a massive system to find and deport them after incarcerating them for one or more years. And the alternative in their home country is so shitty that they'll do it.

      It costs us billions per year to make it so those farmers can pay foreigners shitty wages. ICE isn't cheap. And the cheapest way to enforce immigration laws (imprison the farmers paying the undocumented workers) just doesn't happen for some reason. Backing the recent coup in Honduras isn't as expensive as ICE, but it's still money.

      We could require farmers to actually respond to market demand and pay higher wages.....but the invisible hand is not allowed to hurt capital.

      • You have to remember wages in this discussion.

        I gather from your comment history that I probably just drew the short straw for this particular cut and paste "lesson" of yours, but you might go back and read the language I quoted a bit more carefully. The bit about "the price of fruit's going to be much higher" is, of course, alluding to increased wages..

        But hey, thanks for reminding us of the reality of the demand curve. Well done.

    • It's been getting more difficult to get illegal immigrants as workers, and anybody else who'd be competent can do much better with an easier job.

      The right wing generally favors business policies that would include near-slave labor (as long as it doesn't apply to them), but is also against illegal immigration. Technology to the rescue.

  • When the robot revolution starts, just dress as a strawberry.

  • The berries hide behind leaves in unpredictable places.

    I used to pick strawberries when I was a kid. Those sneaky bastards would hide everywhere. The craftiest ones would sneak over and hide in the raspberry bushes because raspberries weren't being picked yet. Dumb ones would find a pea vine to attach to. It's pretty obvious when a red thing is hanging where a pea pod usually is. I'm pretty sure that strawberries are red-green color blind based on that.

  • to build a robot to pick strawberries. The people trying aren't having much success.

    How did I know this was a msmash article before looking?

  • I thought such robots had been in use for years.

    Like the one that went on sale in Japan in 2013 [cnet.com], possibly descended from the one in the labs in 2010 [singularityhub.com]

    Or the Agrobot Strawberry Harvester [youtube.com] in 2012. Their current Series E [agrobot.com] is advertised as doing all the stuff TFA says is hard and just being developed.

    • Thanks for the links. The Japanese machine is very slow. The Agrobot is faster, but both machines are designed for greenhouse situations where the strawberries hang out into the aisles where the machine works. Picking strawberries in a field where the plants are in rows of soil raised perhaps 4 inches above the aisles is a more difficult problem, requiring a more clever movement of the berries once picked and the ability to move aside leaves to get the berries, etc..

      This shouldn't be a technically difficult

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