Levi Strauss Replaces Human Sanding With Automated Lasers (bloomberg.com) 237
_Sharp'r_ writes: Stressing jeans used to require 300 to 400 workers with sandpaper all day. Now Levi Strauss does a better job by shooting their new jeans with computer-guided lasers in intricate patterns generated in CAD systems. Along the way, they save water and "will cut the number of chemicals it uses to produce jeans from 1,000 to a few dozen," reports Bloomberg.
Save the Earth (Score:2, Insightful)
Buy clothing that is not pre-worn aka deliberately damaged before sale. It will last longer that way.
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Buy clothing that is not pre-worn
This isn't pre-worn, actually, is it? But you can get actual pre-worn clothing in a second-hand store - and more cheaply to boot!
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Different meaning of the word "wear."
Don't expect logic in the fashion business (Score:3)
Its built entirely on emotion.
Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business (Score:5, Funny)
My new product line:
Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.
My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.
Re:Don't expect logic in the fashion business (Score:4, Funny)
My new product line:
Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.
My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.
I'm guessing the models are all kids, because I don't think humans will live all that long on a diet of wood.
Don't worry, it's all just a sales marketing pitch anyway. Their clothes come from the same asian workshops as everybody elses.
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My new product line:
Clothing that was only pre-worn by svelte runway models, hand fed on vegan non-GMO wood pellets and rainwater direct from the skies, unsullied by man-made chemicals. Clothing whose materials are only the finest naturally grown, recycled hemp, crafted in the dark by underprivileged, overpaid tibetan monks. Clothing that is always one of a kind, and intentionally may not fit anyone perfectly to enhance our body positive vibes.
My brand is Smug - I'm Simply Better Than You.
I'm guessing the models are all kids, because I don't think humans will live all that long on a diet of wood.
Don't worry, it's all just a sales marketing pitch anyway. Their clothes come from the same asian workshops as everybody elses.
I am pushing age 80. My problem with jeans is the rise. I am not a teenager and I need more than having the belt sit on my waist. There is nothing more embarrassing than leaning over and the rear cheek halves show down to my crotch. I need that extra inch of rise so that the belt tightens the jean waist at least two fingers high above my hip bones. I also don't want leg/hip huggies. When I got to pee, I want to pee in the urinal, not half and half.
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I am not sure you you are old enough to remember the days when jeans were not pre-worn. When new they were very stiff and uncomfortable. It took weeks for them to be used enough so you felt like you were wring pants not cardboard. While some of is overdone for style, for the most part it is comfort adjustment to the clothing. Where before people would be sitting in the tub with their Jeans on so the material will shrink and fit to the body, or purchased a size larger so when it shrinks in the wash. The C
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You can still buy "raw" denim jeans in some brands. And yeah, they do feel like wearing poster board until you break them in. Some people like the ability to break in their jeans just the way they want. For me, I just order 511s online because I know they will fit me and I don't have to spend the day shopping.
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This.
The video is cool (Score:5, Interesting)
If you want to see the process on video [youtu.be].
One of the cooler parts is that using software, they can now make reproducible artistic designs, designs to emphasize different body parts, text/image messages, whatever someone can dream up.
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If you want to see the process on video [youtu.be].
And here's the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] - American innovation strikes again.
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Re: The video is cool (Score:2, Insightful)
This generation is hardly the first to buy pre-stressed denim.
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I didn't think my Levis 502s were pres-stressed, and I bought them mostly because they did not appear to be.
They have a uniform color, no edge, and if I dry them mechanically they are not stiff. Stiffness like that lasts for about a half hour anyways.
My jeans usually last me several years, which is pretty good. MY work slacks are usually worsted wool, a terribly old-fashioned fabric that wears like iron if you treat it moderately well. Most synthetics have disappointed me, and I no longer purchase them.
I'm
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If you want quality from Levis you have to buy their specialty "Made in USA" line. They use quality denim and actually make them correctly (like the belt loops are sewed to a seam instead of a random part of the thin denim material). I was sick of my 501s dying after a year or two of use and so tried them out, won't be going back. They cost about $90-100/pair vs $40-50/pair for the run of the mill commercial crap that they produce now but they should last a least 3x as long so will be cheaper in the long ru
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There's little to do with making people think they've done something (and they likely don't have TIME, nevermind laziness). Everything to do with the fact that, unless you only own a couple sets of pants, it can take a very long time to get them to where they look and feel "right".
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It blows my mind that people of this generation are so lazy that they won't go out and do things that get their jeans worn.
We can thank the boomers for preworn denim. What the hell do you think stone and acid washes were?
Worn or Indigo removed? (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine managing 300 to 400 people who do nothing for eight to 10 hours but to load a mannequin and then with sandpaper on their hands to begin the destruction process to remove the indigo.
Do the lasers still damage the fibres or do they just remove the indigo or even just its colour?
Indigo is a plant chemical that takes a specific chemical reaction to form, and needs special treatment to adhere it to the fibres. The fact that it does not adhere perfectly is what causes the specific worn look on jeans. If the fibres can be kept intact but the indigo selectively removed, you could have a pair of jeans that looks used but also can still be used for a long time.
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No developed country has used plant indigo for a century or so. Synthetic aniline indigo is used instead, that is what made BASF the largest chemical company in the world.
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Re:Worn or Indigo removed? (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually yes. The modern process is way simpler.
https://prochemicalanddye.net/... [prochemicalanddye.net]
Well I hope this innovation (Score:2)
And 300-400 workers less (Score:5, Interesting)
Not that I am complaining. This process is better for (almost) everybody. But it shows how it goes with automation: A few hundred jobs lost, a few highly qualified gained. That is basically how this will work in most places. And the jobs are gone and are not coming back in some other form.
Re:And 300-400 workers less (Score:4, Insightful)
Not that I am complaining. This process is better for (almost) everybody. But it shows how it goes with automation: A few hundred jobs lost, a few highly qualified gained. That is basically how this will work in most places. And the jobs are gone and are not coming back in some other form.
The standard slashdot response to this is along the lines of "well they should re-train as programmers and earn $300k like I do." Overlooking the fact that programming is surely one of the most easily replaced jobs once we have something even slightly close to real AI.
Re:And 300-400 workers less (Score:5, Insightful)
Overlooking the fact that programming is surely one of the most easily replaced jobs once we have something even slightly close to real AI.
Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.
Re:And 300-400 workers less (Score:5, Insightful)
Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.
Common IT customer complaint, when a product is delivered:
"Yes, that's exactly what I asked for . . . but it turns out, that it is not what I need."
Now that's the really difficult part . . . convincing customers that what they are asking for will not really help them . . .
. . . without losing the customer!
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Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.
Common IT customer complaint, when a product is delivered:
"Yes, that's exactly what I asked for . . . but it turns out, that it is not what I need."
Now that's the really difficult part . . . convincing customers that what they are asking for will not really help them . . .
. . . without losing the customer!
Thank goodness AI is here to help us with all the difficult problems!!!
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Programming isn't the hard bit, figuring out what the humans want, is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
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... "well they should re-train as programmers ..." ...
Just like all the buggy whip makers did.
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Having AI doing coding is completely infeasible at this time, and not even on the distant horizon. It is unclear whether it will ever work and it is quite possible that it will not. However, there is no large need for coders. In fact, there are already far too many coders and most of them are bad. Remove the bad ones and the good ones do not get bogged down in fixing their mistakes and can easily do all coding that is needed. And that will happen sooner or later.
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I still recalling a professor telling me I was screwing up by not pursuing a PhD and focusing on engineering, that AI would replace me in 15 years. That was 20 years ago. It's still 15-20 years away from doing that kind of stuff.
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Well, I did an engineering PhD and I have kept current on AI for something like 30 years now. In actual reality, AI being able to do that is getting farther away. Realistically, "most certainly not in the next 50 years" (the answer a senior engineer in the Watson team gave me recently) is a lower bound. It may well be centuries away or not happening at all. It is also not true/strong AI that is threatening these jobs. It is dumb automation that could not empty a bucket of water unless specifically programme
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Indeed. There are far too many bad coders. There may actually be enough good coders to keep things running already, but they are swamped with cleaning up behind the bad ones. This is also not a new thing: https://blog.codinghorror.com/... [codinghorror.com]
The last thing we need is more bad coders that create more problems.
Now, I am only somewhat complaining, because this keeps me occupied and well paid, but if I have to explain to one more senior web developer ( >5 years experience) how an URL is structured, I am going to
Re: And 300-400 workers less (Score:2)
The jobs will come back in other forms the trick is you need a different skillset. As automation continues the cost of automation will drop, and with that comes something new. Just in time, localized manufacturing.why have massive plants, and distribution. Centers when you can have a local automated maufacturing site producing only parts that are going to sell. That shortens the supply chain and saves money.
Not all items will work for this. But most consumer goods will.
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They will not. These jobs are gone. And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.
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Despite saving on manufacture costs with the laser etching, the retailers will still sell the distressed jeans for $100+.
Perhaps a new market will open for hand-sanded distressed jeans that start at $200+. DIY [youtube.com]
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Hehehehe, possibly.
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And there's part of the problem. Supposedly, the chronic underemployment is to be solved by super cheap consumer goods. But the goods keep not getting cheaper and salaries keep not going up. The work week keeps not getting shorter.
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And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.
Experience suggests that isn't the case. A lot of the time the limiting factor is not something like innate intelligence or skill, but lack of opportunity. Particularly opportunity to learn skills, but also to access better jobs.
A lot of people seem to assume that when someone finishes school or university that's it, that's the limit of their learning capability and their career will be dictated by that. But in reality people learn in different ways, at different times in their lives. How many of us have sw
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And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.
Experience suggests that isn't the case. A lot of the time the limiting factor is not something like innate intelligence or skill, but lack of opportunity. Particularly opportunity to learn skills, but also to access better jobs.
I'm an aggressive person, born into a family that wasn't far from poverty. By sheer force of will, I worked myself up several "classes" on the social ladder.
While you are correct that lack of opportunity is one of the reasons that some folks don't do better, i can assure you that on the way up the ladder, I used my assertiveness a lot more than my opportunities. And I took advantage of every opportunity that came my way.
In this world, we have a strange dichotomy in that people are supposed to rely on
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Do you realize how often aerospace companies hire then lay off numbers of engineers as the cycle of work ebbs and flows? They're worse than the construction industry in that regard.
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Well, I don't know about aerospace engineering demand at the moment, but mining and oil & gas companies need lots geologists, though maybe you need some specialization within geology for employment by them.
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You
may [time.com]
be [pnas.org]
mistaken. [theguardian.com]
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They will not. These jobs are gone. And the ones doing them cannot "retrain" upwards or they would not have been doping these bad jobs in the first place.
Exactly. Too many people have swallowed the concept that "I can be anything I want if I only try hard enough". Usually spouted by people of extraordinary abilities or teachers lying to students. Nope, everyone has limitations.
There are a lot of people in this world who are doing well to tie their shoes in the morning.
Whether these blue jean sanders are operating at their mental capacity, or are lacking the drive to perform a more intricate or mentally involved job is irrelevant. You can't increase capac
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Very true. I also think a lot of that "there will be new jobs" is people that are likely to get hit putting their heads in the sand.
Now, I am nowhere saying this is a good development. But it is an inevitable development.
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The drive can be increased with medication. That's what the psychostimulants do.
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Hahahaha, "NoOPS", hahahaha! Nice one. In other news, companies actually dependent on the IT are more and more in need of having people that really get it (and are expensive) on staff or as long-term available external staff, because outsourcing does not cut it.
That said, getting rid of "dead weight" employees is not directly a problem and I did not claim it is. Bit unless you want cities burning in your country, people have to eat and have to have meaning in their lives.
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The jobs will come back in other forms the trick is you need a different skillset.
I hear this a lot. We have to keep in mind that the stated intent of present day automation is eliminating jobs
The hat trick will be eliminating jobs, then eliminating whatever jobs are created by the automation, then having as close to no humans employed as is possible..
The question is can humans do this? Certainly in a lot of the Western World, working is a core value, and having a job is considered a measure of a person's worth.
Can society adjust to a state where most people are not performing any
Re: And 300-400 workers less (Score:5, Insightful)
No-one is saying that new job descriptions will not appear in the future. But the thing is AI - both the narrow-AI systems being developed now and in the future more generalized AI - is an entirely different shift than that of the previous 'dumb'/mechanic automation. Once AI-guided production becomes more commonplace, which will occur in the coming decades, a big chunk of humans will lose their jobs but they will also not be able to easily train themselves with a new skillset that would be of any value. The more widespread AI-based automation becomes, the cheaper it will become which will lower the marginal utility of hiring humans for most jobs. This is especially apparent on production and logistics side where humans are already most often the slowest and most inefficient part of the process. The only reason not all warehouses are fully automatic at this point is the cost, and the cost is coming down as time goes along.Once general purpose AI is reached (and there's no reason to suspect it won't be reached eventually unless one is stubborn enough to argue for some kind of a 'soul' that would make the capabilities of a human brain beyond achievable for a computerized system) then pretty much any job that requires thinking/analyzing data will be done faster and better by machines.
It's misguided to assume that human labor will remain competitive with super-intelligent systems indefinitely. Essentially any job that requires manual precision or quality control can already be done much more efficiently by computer-aided systems than by humans, and this trend is only going to continue.
The market does not magically optimize itself for full-employment. Humans will only be hired if they're the only way to get something done, or massively cheaper than machines. For the next 1-2 decades this will remain the case in many fields, but with the rate of advancement we're seeing already in AI and the fact that any new production facilities built in the west require a fraction of the workforce from 10-20 years ago, comparing the upcoming shift to the automation boom from the 60s onwards is not a valid comparison.
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Once general purpose AI is reached (and there's no reason to suspect it won't be reached eventually unless one is stubborn enough to argue for some kind of a 'soul' that would make the capabilities of a human brain beyond achievable for a computerized system) then pretty much any job that requires thinking/analyzing data will be done faster and better by machines.
It's misguided to assume that human labor will remain competitive with super-intelligent systems indefinitely. .
It's misguided to assume that a super-intelligent general-purpose AI is at all reachable (at least within the lifetime of anyone currently reading and commenting on Slashdot).
There is absolutely zero (let me repeat that: zero - and again: ZERO) proof that current computer technology and AI research can produce a "general-purpose AI" (let alone super-intelligent - people forget that those two are separate things: I can easily argue that the intelligence of a cat is "general purpose", yet it is far from super
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Indeed. I really don't understand why people keep expecting intelligence in machines. There is zero indication it can be done. The problem is still present with dumb automation, that can do maybe 95% of a human job (for example), because that means 95 of 100 people lose their jobs permanently. We do not have to go to worker-less industries to lose most jobs.
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Indeed. I am pretty sure we cannot. And this may be a "cannot, ever". Also the cat in question is pretty dumb.
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There will not be any "super intelligent systems" anytime soon and possibly not ever. However, the majority of the human race struggles to be competitive with advanced (but utterly dumb) automation, also because automation these days is very, very fast.
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Workers surviving to the personnel reduction will be cut by the laser beam.
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(a) It's "fewer" not "less" [grammarly.com]
(b) Those worker would probably get laid off anyway when the EU adds tariffs on Levi's jeans [bbc.com] in retaliation to Trump's Steel/Aluminum tariff's -- though, I (and others) are speculating that he will reconsider imposing them just after the special election in Pennsylvania's 18th District (which has some steel/aluminum mills) on March 13.
It's interesting, though, that Levi's will go directly to using automation with the lasers rather than using sharks.
Re: And 300-400 workers less (Score:4, Insightful)
History is not a reliable predictor. At some point there comes a game-changer along (hint: "computer") and historical precedent becomes worthless.
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There will soon be the need for a great number of garment inspectors, to authenticate actual 'sanded' worn denim from the laser-worn variety.
Because the artisanal hand-worn denim will be far more in demand due to their authenticity.
There are already people who can 'grade' old jeans, who look at thread, rivets, the label and the cut to determine a pair of jeans is authentically vintage.
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>There are already people who can 'grade' old jeans, who look at thread, rivets, the label and the cut to determine a pair of jeans is authentically vintage.
Yea, but i've already replaced them with an AI vision system that does that for less.
Ahh, sanded jeans. (Score:3, Insightful)
For my life, i can't understand why people are willing to pay a premium for pre-worn out clothing.
Slavery to fashion (Score:2)
Endemic in the idiot class who desperately need to believe themselves to be worthwhile. By contrast us geeks KNOW we are worthwhile, don't bother to indulge in fashion - and don't get any girl friends... So in Darwinian terms, slavery to fashion is probably a good strategy.
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The short short version: The US is a classless society, thus we are all bootstrappy working folk at heart. We want to relax in our well-worn worker clothing, even if we don't actually have the time or patience to wear in said clothing ourselves. Or if in fact said clothing is made with ultra light stretchy material instead of heavy cotton duck and wouldn't survive long enough to look right, anyway.
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What? Someone who doesn't get fashion on Slashdot? ... We want to relax in our well-worn worker clothing ...
https://media.giphy.com/media/... [giphy.com]
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Status. They're fashionable. New dark blue jeans are associated with low status people, and nobody wants to be mistaken for a low status person. Imitating high status people is very deeply ingrained in humans, for good reason.
Yeah, the low status people that own new stuff. So buying shiny new cars also represents low status?
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For my life, i can't understand why people are willing to pay a premium for pre-worn out clothing.
Status. They're fashionable.
Sweet! My car is way more fashionable than I thought!
It should say so, too! (Score:2)
I thought they hired poor people to wear the jeans for six months kneeling and stuff.
Fraud!
Human Sanding (Score:3)
Sanding down humans is SO 20th century. Now they can be ablated with lasers!
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Sanding down humans is SO 20th century.
Denim is out, too. I wear jeans made out of the skin of human sanders.
It has a natural feel, and reduces the global warming caused by the CO2 normally produced by human sanders.
Try to find non-pre-worn jeans nowadays (Score:2)
Last week I was looking at jeans in a store. It seems that this pre-worn stuff is all that's offered now anymore. Does anyone know if/where one can get actual new and un-wrecked jeans?
great! (Score:5, Funny)
Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.
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Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.
Unless you live in the EU: Trump trade row: EU considers tax on Levi jean imports [bbc.co.uk]
You jest, but.... (Score:2)
Your post suggests that all productivity improvements go only into corporate coffers and no real price decreases. However here is how it works in the real world. There is still inflation, the costs of making jeans will rise due to other factors and, yes, for a short time the company may reap increased profits, in the long run it will be forced to keep its prices lower than it would have otherwise or lose market share. Also it could be that buying the lasers and developing the tech will mean that it may b
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Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.
You were going for funny, but when I look at the cost of Jeans now compared to 20 years ago there has been a steady drop in the cost of quality clothing over the years.
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Now that these expensive 300-400 workers have been removed from the total cost of producing said jeans, the consumer price will surely drop.
It may, actually. Depends on the competition out there, and the willingness (or not) of customers to pay the same prices.
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If those salaries represent a significant fraction of the product's cost, the price should tend to drop, even for jeans made by different companies.
To see why do this thought experiment. Suppose nothing had changed; could Levis increase it's profits by raising the price on its jeans? It certainly would raise the per unit profit sold profit, but it would sell fewer jeans. The price represents what the manufacturer believes is the optimal compromise between unit profit and quantity sold.
Now if jeans were a
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That's the way economics works. Make a graph with price on the x-asis, and total profit on the y-axis. If you set the price at your production cost, you sell lots of uni
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The mistake in your reasoning is that "stressed Jeans" is a luxury item. Notice that a lot of work went into the ability to alter the wear patterns in an artistic manner. That means the software was made a lot more complex than it had to be, and that costs.
What this is about it letting them sell artistically designed brands. IOW, it's a luxury good. And that means that they are sole source for each design. Now they need to create a design that will catch on and they can sell at a huge markup.
They may n
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Cost to make only affects the minimum possible selling price. Actual selling price is more closely related to demand and competition. If there's not much competition, the price will be the highest that people will pay.
OTOH, that's just for manufacturers. Vendors have problems with managing demand, which leads to things like loss-leaders, etc. which are sold at a price designed to attract customers, so you can sell them something else. (Sometimes instead, though that's often called bait-and-switch, and i
Yes, but... (Score:2)
Sandpaper? Not Sandblasting? (Score:2)
I remember a report (no idea where and when) about young people in Turkey who got serious health problems because they where sandblasting jeans and the sand got into their lungs.
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prefer to 'relic' them myself... (Score:3)
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As well as jeans I don't understand the whole 'relic' thing with guitars, either. Yes it's sort of nice picking up a genuine vintage instrument and seeing the scrapes and dings, buckle rash, cigarette burns etc and wondering what sort of life it had. Knowing that someone picked a brand new instrument off the shelf and beat the crap out of it to get the same effect just turns me cold.
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Levi's is a frustratingly inconsistent company (Score:4, Insightful)
Their customer service has not been terribly useful either.
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I thought that by now 3D scanning and automated factories should be providing everyone with custom-tailored clothing at mass production prices. That seems no closer than flying cars.
I believe the technology is here. But the problems lies in that people of the off-the-rack generation don't understand the value of custom tailored clothing, so the demand isn't there.
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The real (current) problem is getting an accurate 3-D scan of a person before the clothing is built. (It would also still be a lot more expensive, but some people would pay for that.)
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What is there to understand? If you can't make two pairs of jeans the same, how would to build them to any other standard?
You can make two pairs of jeans the same, but at a different production cost than Levi's currently enjoys.
It's not that the capabilities doesn't exist. It's that they don't give a shit. Partially because consumers don't give a shit about anything beyond how their clothes cost or how their clothes look in advertisements on people with exceptional bodies.
Will it cut the volume (Score:2)
Will it cut the volume of chemicals used or just the variety?
Try working a day in your life (Score:2)
Then you won't need to have someone sand your jeans for you.
Wore my first set of Levis since 2001 (Score:2)
last Saturday and it was a pair of Levis Big Bang phat pants. Wore them to an old school Acid Techno/House rave.
o noes (Score:2)
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Sanding blue jeans all day makes you at least qualified to be on Slashdot's network Ops team.
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It's not 'outlawed', just regulated. Lung protection is required.
The solution is simply a media other than sand. Ground nut shells, baking soda etc etc. 'Sand' blasting is relatively uncommon.