Linux PC Maker System76 Plans To Design And Manufacture Its Own Hardware (liliputing.com) 103
An anonymous reader quotes Liliputing:
System76 is one of only a handful of PC vendors that exclusively sells computers with Linux-based software. Up until now, that's meant the company has chosen hardware that it could guarantee would work well with custom firmware and the Ubuntu Linux operating system... Starting in 2018 though, you may be able to buy a System76 computer that was designed and built in-house... CAD files for System76 computers will be open source, allowing anyone with the appropriate skills and equipment to build or modify their own cases based on the company's designs.
"We're prototyping with acrylic and moving to metal soon," the company says in a blog post, adding "Our first in-house designed and manufactured desktops will ship next year. Laptops are more complex and will follow much later."
"We're prototyping with acrylic and moving to metal soon," the company says in a blog post, adding "Our first in-house designed and manufactured desktops will ship next year. Laptops are more complex and will follow much later."
Re: Don't hold your breath... (Score:2, Interesting)
Don't hold your breath, why? Designing hardware is hard? Costs? Knowhow? Documentation on the chipsets?
None of this is hard, or an unknown, just hire the right people and contractors (yes, I do this stuff for a living). But I'm curious as to what you were thinking the barrier is...
Re: Don't hold your breath... (Score:5, Funny)
Of course designing hardware is hard! Look at Apple! Even with more money in the bank than small countries they are incapable of updating their computers properly every year! Hell, in 2014 they even downgraded the Mac mini! That's how hard it is to design hardware!
Re: Don't hold your breath... (Score:1)
Incorrect. Apple's neglect of the Mac is because the iPhone and politics are their priorities now instead of the home computer.
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I think they need to manufacture those computers to control the CNCs. Oh wait.
What a weird add (Score:5, Funny)
I mean, I'm so glad these new computer cases will be compatible with Linux. Really. I accidentally bought a case one time that wasn't, couldn't install Linux Mint or any other distro. Worked with Freebsd, but not Linux. Fortunately this will solve this well known problem.
Re:What a weird add (Score:5, Insightful)
Which of those can you prototype in acrylic?
That one.
Baddly worded summary (Score:5, Informative)
The summary is badly worder.
The thing is :
up until now System76 were selling
- laptops which were simply re-branded laptops from other brand, to which they changed firmware and OS to a more free option
- desktop which were mostly of the shelf beige-boxes
i.e.: they were selling mostly 3rd party hardware
starting from next year, they also want :
- laptop that they make themselves (well, most likely they will be still produced in china. but the idea is that the models are now made by System76. Not Lenovo models with an alternate firmware and OS).
This is interesting because in the end it will enable them to better choose the component inside the laptop for Linux compatibility (avoid too much weird embed controllers)
- desktop designed by themselves too. (that won't be a much big change from the current beige box trend. A motherboard is still a motherboard).
but at least it will help with brand identity and will also help testing their design pipeline on a smaller scale before tackling the laptops.
Their blog post make it clearer (I swear I didn't click TFA's link ! I just clicked last week, when it was on Phoronix. Am I still /.-worthy ? :-D )
Sadly the summery sounds like you need desktop cases specially made compatible with Linux.
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Really kind of sad that this is called making your own computer.
So system 76 is going to go to Foxconn, ASUS, MSI or some other OEM and have them make laptops for them. For desktops they will probably make their own case and go to Gigabyte, ASUS, ASUS or some other OEM and buy a motherboard.
It used to be that "making" your own computer actually made the CPU. Companies like DEC, CDC, IBM, Data General, Ti, HP and so one all made their own CPUs sometimes several different models.
So IC based CPUs came along. T
Re:Baddly worded summary (Score:4, Insightful)
If they are going to produce X/86 desktops then they would be dumb to produce their own motherboard.
Lots of companies already make very good X/86 motherboards for both Intel and AMD. What can they do better? Even if the want to tweak the motherboard OEMs can do that for them.
Now if they intend to build their own motherboards....
Well that could be the death of the company. They would have to compete with people that make good products already.
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An OEM can put on a custom firmware if you really want them to.
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> Really kind of sad that this is called making your own computer.
Not quite. For desktops, which is their first goal, making your own case is a medium deal. You can insure that the case components, top to bottom, actually have drivers for them, instead of totally neglecting them, or just leaving them fallow without some one-off Windows driver. You can also put time and money into design and branding, ending up with cool little Gizmos like Sun used to have and HP sorta still does, on their pizza boxen.
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> The rest are just putting stuff in boxes
When I built my current box, I ended up using:
Asus Mobo
Intel CPU
Nvidia GPU
WD HDD
Samsung SSD
Kingston RAM
EVGA Power Supply
Corsair case
No company in history, alone, could have matched that set of stuff. No solo company could have made their own motherboard, CPU, GPU, RAM, HDD, and SSD. I needed all those parts though.
Who is closest on this list?
Intel makes a motherboard, and they will probably again make RAM- that's the closest to the full package, but they didn't
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What is that profoundly intrusive network management framework that Intel have been building into their ROMs and motherboards for a number of years? You really wanted to play that game?
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You are thinking Intel's Management Engine, normally called ME. I didn't want to play that game, but I wasn't willing to switch to ARM to avoid playing that game.
The AMD version is the Platform Security Processor (PSP, not to be confused with Sony's portable offering).
Both are bitched about by libreboot here:
https://libreboot.org/faq.html [libreboot.org]
AMD is on record as considering looking at the PSP and making it optional or open. Intel lurves their ME and has no plans to do anything with it except continue to make i
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To be honest, if you want network security then you want two layers of firewall, one using Western hardware and software and the other using hardware and software from non-Western sources.
Re:Baddly worded summary (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect this may enable them to lower their prices or increase their margins.
Linux support on popular high-end hardware is close to flawless -- or becomes so after that hardware has been out for a year or so. But if you start looking at the plethora of low end laptops, especially, you are in for a world of minor headaches. I find it takes me about a week of research to get a cheap, relatively new laptop working flawlessly. Sometimes the fixes Google turns up for your model don't work because you have a different revision number. Most people, if they attempted to install Linux onto a recent, low-end laptop, would find a lot of things not working, like sound, or keyboard special keys. It's not rocket science to fix, but for them it might as well be.
This is not what 99% of the world signs on for when they buy a laptop, so it makes sense for someone to have a business that does this for people. But if you're in the business of doing that, you have to pay yourself for your labor. That means you can compete at rock bottom prices because that's where you're starting from in your costs; and in any case starting with a better quality device minimizes the work you have to do dealing with stuff like broken ACPI firmware.
Which means when you count the cost of your value added, it's really hard to sell a rebranded laptop at a competitive price. Selling high quality rebranded hardware at relatively high prices and small profits may be a way to bootstrap your business, but the only way to get serious volume sales at a profit is going to be to have a computer manufactured to your specifications.
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Check to see whether xbacklight works. If not try looking at this thread [archlinux.org].
In general the arch community seems to be good at coming up with solutions for problems like this.
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SteamOS is very likely to change that. Not a huge space in that market and it will likely get much tighter as manufacturers jump into that market. It is likely even game publishers and gaming studios will jump into the Steam OS market https://arstechnica.com/gaming... [arstechnica.com], as it grows. In the back of managements mind will be escaping M$ licensing fees and controls and creating a easier to access gaming market. Valve would likely do far better if the opened up SteamOS to broader investment and sharing of control
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That's cause your a newb, and you shall be chastised for giving crap to a good hardware Linux company that actually cares.
Re: What a weird add (Score:2)
Seems pretty relevant since the question "who sells Linux PCs" comes up on /. every two months, and the response is always "System 76" to which someone always replies, "they just rebrand Company X's laptop, why not just buy one of those instead?"
Re: Time to start a pool (Score:2, Interesting)
I call your bet. $1000 USD they are still around in six months. Reply with a registered account if you're interested and I'll log in and pm you with details.
Microsoft tax (Score:5, Informative)
I understand wanting to support the Linux community, but I thought one of the "big advantages" of Linux was that it was cheaper? Yet here, even without the Microsoft tax, it costs a lot more.
The thing is, unlike your custom self-build linux workstation, linux laptops not only come *without the Microsoft tax* (making them a bit cheaper), they also come *without the Bloatware/Crapware bonus* (making them not heavily subsidized by "Punch the Monkey to win big prizes !" and "Let's siphon all your data straight to all the marketeer we an find".
They also don't come with the *integrated by chinese almost-slave labour rebate*.
Laptop tend to be complex and weird (embed controllers, etc.) which requires a tiny bit of adaptation to make them linux-worthy.
- When you buy a big popular brand like Lenovo's Thinkpad Ts, Dell's Lattitude, etc. someone else would have done the debugging already (see ressources like Thinkwiki) and by that time it'll probably be upstream in vanilla kernel and standard distros. So you can probably just pop in a CD of Ubuntu or Linux Mint and it will install flawlessly.
- When you start with less popular manufacturer, you'd be in for a few small surprise : screen not turning on, kernel crashing at boot when trying to enumerate hardware, UEFI-Secure refusing the signature of your bootloader's shim, etc. You could be needed fixes in the firmware and/or workaround patched in the kernel. It might something really simple (just hacking a bit some settings).
But even that "simple" will by done by some who isn't paid in cents per day range.
So it adds up to the costs.
Re: (Score:2)
Dell sells Linux laptops.
And the Microsoft tax is a myth. All the demo software they tend to put on pays for windows plus a bit more so Linux laptops can often be a bit more because they are unsubsidised.
Microsoft tax vs. Bloatware (Score:2)
Dell sells Linux laptops.
Not on all of them, and not in all market.
But still, Dells are so much popular, that even for the few Lattitude that you can directly get with Ubuntu pre-installed, you can just pop your Suse CD in and install a tumbleweed, because of popularity, lots of people would have tester a tweaked what is necessary for the distro to work out of the box.
And the Microsoft tax is a myth. All the demo software they tend to put on pays for windows plus a bit more so Linux laptops can often be a bit more because they are unsubsidised.
Yup. Totally agree with you. That's why I was saying :
linux laptops not only come *without the Microsoft tax* (making them a bit cheaper), they also come *without the Bloatware/Crapware bonus* (making them not heavily subsidized by "Punch the Monkey to win big prizes !" and "Let's siphon all your data straight to all the marketeer we an find".
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Making a custom case is not that big a deal. And it doesn't seem they intend to do more than that. And "making" in this context probably means "give the CAD files to a company in China and let them do the dirty work".
A case is not high tech stuff, any schmuck can design a case. The airflow may not be ideal and it may not be the most convenient but it will work.
Considering the size of the company (11-50 employees), I don't consider it a risky endeavor. Designing laptops is their real goal but they prefer to
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Make those corners really pointy, just to be on the safe sued^H side.
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8 core A53 at 2GHz.... so like Pentium 4 performance?
It will probably be running a custom 3.x kernel with poor mainline support.
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The thing he linked is a pile of garbage. It's obviously not a desktop, or even really a server. Comparing that to System 76's laptop line, which at the top end includes desktop processors and desktop graphics cards, is obviously stupid. I'm sure it's still a great deal for 80 bucks though, and it's interesting for that reason.
Assuming it exists. Google can't find a "T9SRPro".
Re: Buy an Android TV box (Score:1)
Android isn't Linux aside from kernel code and they are a security trainwreck with their lack of updates and poorly screened app store.
Cases, not electronics (Score:5, Informative)
I RTFA and the source article and I didn't see anything to indicate they would be designing their own electronics. Instead, it seems like they will be building their own computer cases. Frankly, computer cases are far less important than the electronics that reside inside them. Having the CAD files to customize is nice but when their is a backdoor in every new x86 chip, it's kinda like putting on sunblock to protect your skin from the sun as you stare down a civilization ending 10000 meter tsunami wave.
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Exactly. Our problem now are x86 cpus.
Re:Cases, not electronics (Score:4, Interesting)
Raspberry Pi to the rescue!
I wish it were sarcasm, but who can predict the future at this point.
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who can predict the future at this point.
literally anybody. it's getting it right that's difficult. ;)
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predict
prdikt/
verb
say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something.
Touché, Gravis Zero.
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Raspberry Pi has proprietary binary blobs; it is not a solution.
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they won't ever get to the "in house" laptop chassis designs until (and a big IF, at that) they get to their own custom circuit board designs.. if they don't have that, then whatever laptop chassis they "design" is going to be limited to fitting whatever electronics and other components they can get in bulk or whatever some cheap chinese maker 'designs' (i.e. builds from existing or old product designs) for them. it's not like there's a form factor standard for these things like there is for desktops.
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Frankly, computer cases are far less important than the electronics that reside inside them.
I disagree. If that were the case (har har) then a perfectly viable laptop would be a cardboard box with a bunch of great parts haphazardly fixed to the inside. The case and packaging is super important. Many laptops are just shonky heaps of garbage where the case falls apart fast.
With portable electronics, it's ALL about tradeoffs. It needs to be fast enough. It needs to have enough ram. The batterylife has to be l
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Everyone who could build a motherboard or CPU at home put their hands up.
[nobody]
And now everyone who could build a case, albeit one that's susceptible to termites.
[me].
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Manufacturing at home, not that impossible (Score:2)
I know several people who have the equipment to build motherboards at home (in garages and basements). I agree that it's not common and consists of surplus equipment they were able to get cheap and would not be as efficient as a properly equipped manufacturer, but they're out there and they can do the high BGA counts of processor sockets with a high degree of success.
Manufacturing the PCBs isn't the problem; see my other post.
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And the CPUs, lan/wifi cards and so on?
The claim was that cases are as difficult, if not more so, than the electronics. To make, not to scavenge.
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No it wasn't. The claim was that the case is just as important. A laptop with a crap case is unusable.
Datasheets, not electronics or cases (Score:2)
To make a competitive system, the real issue is, is the ability to convince Intel or AMD (or any other processor manufacturer) as well as BIOS/EFI vendors (if you're not going to write your own) that you are serious enough with enough resources to be successful in designing a system and maintain their IP.
Probably the most difficulty somebody who wants to design/build motherboards will have is showing these companies that they have sufficient security systems and protocols in place that the processor and sup
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Probably the most difficulty somebody who wants to design/build motherboards will have is showing these companies that they have sufficient security systems and protocols in place that the processor and support chip manufacturers (if they're different) can provide you with the datasheets and other documents necessary to design systems without them becoming public knowledge (ie available to their competitors).
This is only a problem with x86. Go with stuff you can buy on the open market and you can build whatever you like and there is not BIOS/UEFI bullshit to deal with. x86 should not be a prerequisite since we're talking about Linux.
Nice to see (Score:5, Insightful)
I live in Colorado where Sys76 is based. The original post may read like an ad, and my comment may sound like a shill, but check my post history. I'm not shill, I'm a real life Sys76 customer. Sys76 is committed to Linux on well-designed desktop/laptop systems. They have a legit business that focuses on systems designed for HPC and deep learning. I don't think they're super focused on mainstream consumer audience right now. From what I've seen they're really on the prosumer/commercial side of things -- looking to cash in on the deep learning craze, and put capable hardware and OS stack in the hands of interested people who want form-factors that fit into daily life. I'm impressed with their last-gen offerings, and I really look forward to what they'll be doing next.
tl;dr: real company, real product. Keep an eye on this.
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Selective hardware would work too (Score:1)
Chromebook's have had some success because they customize hardware and the OS to work together. This is also why Apple Mac's have worked so well, and why Windows struggles to work well in a vast hardware ecosystem. Linux also has this problem sometimes adapting drivers that only marginally work and regressions are happening far to much from version to version. System 76 has the right idea, but making your own hardware is costly and it also can lock a user into a certain operating system. Kind of working aga
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What does the f****** case matter? (Score:2)
Is this for people that confuse the box with what is in the box? A computer case cannot be "Linux hardware".
System76?I (Score:2)
I guess we're all systems now.
What about the enevitable knock on the door? (Score:2)
There are people that don't want this to happen.
1 - A lot of the hardware documentation that was open 5 years ago has disappered.
2 - If they came out with such a device - you can count on a trip ti FISA court.
Take the Ubuntu phone - it is not really Linux - it is an Android kernel with binary blobs that are there for our protection...
'They' put an end to this about 5 years ago - read about core boot...