Panasonic Announces 1,000,000:1 Contrast Ratio LCD Panel To Rival OLED (androidauthority.com) 103
OLED panels have always been known to have higher contrast ratios than LCD panels, but that may be about to change with Panasonic's recently announced LCD IPS display. The display boasts a 1,000,000:1 contrast ratio, which is up to 600 times more contrast than some of the company's conventional LCD panels that tend to offer around 1800:1 ratios, and rivals OLED specifications. Android Authority reports: Panasonic has accomplished this through the use of its new light modulating cell technology, which allows the company to switch off individual pixels in the display using a secondary control layer. Typically, LCD backlights mean that either the entire or only large parts of the display can be dimmed at any one time. OLED panels switch off lights entirely for a black pixel to offer very high contrast ratios, and this new LCD technology works on a very similar principle. This is particularly important for reproducing HDR video content, which is becoming increasingly popular. Furthermore, this new light modulating cell technology allows Panasonic to increase the peak brightness and stability of the display, which can reach 1,000 cd/m2 while also providing HDR colors. Many other HDR TV panels top out in the range of 700 to 800 cd/m2, so colors, highlights, and shadows should appear vivid and realistic. Panasonic plans to ship the new display starting in January 2017 with sizes ranging from 55 to 12 inches.
Sack of salt (Score:1)
Manufacturers values for contrast ratio and NITS (luminosity per unit area) are generally regarded as being complete bullshit.
I'll wait until I've seen some independent tests before I throw out my existing TV
Re: Sack of salt (Score:5, Informative)
Mostly because they typically report dynamic contrast ratios, which really are bullshit. In this case, they basically appear to be layering on an additional LCD panel whose sole job is to control the amount of light that gets through to the regular LCD. And sure enough, if you layer two LCD panels which each have a 1000:1 contrast ratio, then you get a 1000000:1 contrast ratio.
I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be practical apart from the increase in cost and thickness this would involve.
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I've got a 1080p 240hz LCD set which has a beautiful picture. I went recently to look at some new TV's because we have a 47" set and would like a 55-60 inch model now that they're more affordable. I was looking at a 4K picture and it might be better than mine, hell I'm certain it is, but I can't really tell it. Considering the fact that there's very little 4K stuff available anyway I can't see paying extra but really I'm surprised how well my old 2010 set compares to newer stuff.
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Yeah, gonna need a model number on your 2010 "240 Hz" LCD. (Hint: It's actually 120 Hz or possibly even 60 Hz.)
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You realize that most of the 240Hz TVs that were sold were designed for 3D capability? 120Hz for a mono image is a nice round number because it can support both primary content frame rates evenly. For a stereo image (how most 3D TVs work) you get half of the available frame rate per eye so to get that optimal 120Hz per eye you need a 240Hz TV.
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You don't appear to understand that the 240hz is the scan rate. Higher means less motion blur. It doesn't really affect the picture otherwise. I got it because I like to watch sports. Truly it's not significantly better than 120hz but is quite noticeable compared to 60hz. I did the research before I purchased it. I considered a Plasma display at the time because they are even better, 600hz if I recall.
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What does it matter though if the content to the TV is in 60 Hz, or in some cases even 30 Hz? Sure, the panel might be able to refresh that fast, but either the panel is refreshing the same image 3 times for every time the image actually changes, or the TV is playing some processing games with the incoming signal to interpolate frames that don't actually exist. I'd prefer my display to just be a display myself.
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It refreshes the screen more often making motion smoother. That's really the only benefit to it. Pictures that are in motion getting updated at a faster rate simply appear smoother loosing the blur that you often get at slower rates. The difference between 60hz and 240hz is obvious to the naked eye. 120hz vs 240hz is less so although on sports events I can tell it pretty easily.
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I have a 4k TV as a PC screen, too, and I can see every single pixel. So clearly for this application, 8k would be a massive benefit, and even higher resolutions may still show a better image.
Of course the same does not apply to typical TV use, where even 4k is beyond what most people can really appreciate.
Re: Sack of salt (Score:2)
...who swear they need at least a 16K display
And just like today, whether they're worth it or not will simply depend on the content's native rez and the optimal field of view... i.e. there really won't be anything to debate (though try telling the idiots that).
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Also you need to check the other specs of the same tv.
You never know when they make the panel have an horrid 200+ms of input delay to process the backlight switching.
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But this was relative 1800:1 so it seem pretty fair.
Though isn't most IPS more like 800:1-1000:1 so maybe it's dynamic after all.
If all it did was shutter off the back-light to create something completely black then I don't care much.
But since someone else suggested it was like two LCDs on top of each other I assume normal LCDs can actually restrict the light-flow to varying degree considering they can show different brightness after-all and as such I guess it would actually scale the brightness through the
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Why would you throw out a perfectly good TV just because there is something better on the market?
Oh... looks like the independent lab has shown that the TV is better than mine... time to throw my TV in the garbage...
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Oh... looks like the independent lab has shown that the TV is better than mine... time to throw my TV in the garbage...
Don't throw it out - put it on Craigslist so I can buy it, cheap. Got my last 55" 1080p LCD that way for $150. The guy wanted the lower latency of a newer model for gaming. Cool. That works for me. Then holler when the new tube is outdated. I'll be ready for a "new" one by then, too.
Wow! Can't wait!! (Score:5, Funny)
Panasonic plans to ship the new display starting in January 2017 with sizes ranging from 55 to 12 inches.
Wow! Can't wait for my new 4K Ultra-high definition HDR.... er 12" TV...?
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I'd like a 12" smart phone. Just slap a handle or strap or some shit on the back.
It would still fit in the pockets on my slacks, too.
Not these pants, and not on my jeans, but my beige pair and my brown pair of slacks with full size pockets. I can hide a Christmas ham in there if I need to.
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This isn't a bad thing. One of the more annoying things with oled at the moment is that while I have a gorgeous, 55" oled panel mounted on my wall, I can't get anywhere near the color and black levels on a desktop monitor without paying more than I paid for my TV.
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You almost certainly didn't buy an OLED TV on Black Friday. You bought a back lit LED TV. The OLED's are too expensive.
Re:Black is the new Black (Score:5, Interesting)
Plenty of OLED models were deeply discounted (in the sense that there are plenty of OLED models at all, which there aren't). They weren't $300-$600 like a lot of the deals on crap people got excited for, but still, many were marked down 50% or more.
Of course, a Black Friday or Cyber Monday price isn't really that good anymore. You can find deals as good as or better than those days throughout the year if you just wait and watch.
OLED doesn't sell because it's expensive and LCD TVs are marketed deceptively. "LED" on a TV means "LCD with X zones of LED back lighting" and "Full LED" or "Full Array LED" means "LCD with full array local dimming", which really means "LCD with many zones of LED back lighting".
Throughout all of 2016 we've seen a huge fire sale on 4K TVs for 3 reasons:
1 - Sales needed a boost. 4K wasn't as enticing as HD was, just like BluRay wasn't as enticing as DVD.
2 - The 4K sets out in 2016 don't fully support the new UHD spec with HDR profiles and Rec 2020.
3 - The Vizio P series shat on Samsung, Sony, etc. The budget shit brand Vizio put out better 4K TVs than the big boys at less than half the price.
I don't know what Samsung is going to do for 2017 when they truly support the new shit. They've already jumped the hark by calling their shit Super Ultra High Definition (SUHD). Maybe VSUHD or SUHD+ or XSUHD+ v2.0 PRO GOLD?
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I'm in The Netherlands, but I also checked a few German websites, since I frequently order things in Germany because of lower prices or better availability. It seems that no shop over here carries any Vizio products, which explains why I hadn't heard of them before. I am somewhat surprised there are apparently still regional brands in consumer electronics. I take it in the US they are as common as Sony, Samsung, LG, Philips, etc.?
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Vizio is a US-based company; they design the products here though a lot of the manufacturing is done in China. They are well known in the US (though not as well known as Sony and the like) and have a strong reputation for high performance at a less-high price. TVs are their main product, but they have also made some tablets and laptops. Vizio also sell products in China and other Asian markets, including a line of mobile phones that they don't sell in the US. So far as I know they have no presence in Europe
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I would like to subscribe to your angry tv tech newsletter.
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You need to go look at actual sets and reviews.
Rec 2020 coverage of high end sets right now is only around 60-65%. It can and will be much higher over the next few years. Most people expect the 2017 models to provide a significant jump in coverage.
Further, Rec 2020 is only half the story - most of the sets out now don't support the HDR profiles properly (either Dolby Vision or whatever the other shit is, as far as I know there are only two relevant ones). Usually they'll see it and read the signal but no
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QLED. Samsung stopped making OLED and is focusing on their new QLED (which should be out late 2017 or 2018), as they seem to think it can be cheaper and easier to produce than OLED and get a picture that rivals it too.
two stacked LCDs? (Score:4, Insightful)
Reading between the lines, it sure sounds like they just stacked two LCDs and bumped the brightness of the light source. Mind you, that's a very good idea. The new underneath layer probably only needs single R/G/B group resolution in order to achieve the claimed specs, making it somewhat easier to manufacture, although alignment is still going to be important to get right, as will appropriately close bonding of the two planes to control leakage from one luminance cell (for want of a better word) to the neighboring RGB cells in the color layer.
A highly-motivated enthusiast might be able to get close to the same results by merging two existing IPS monitors and bumping the light source brightness.
Re:two stacked LCDs? (Score:4, Insightful)
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To achieve a one million - to - one ratio, requires 20 bits.
Shave and a haircut, 2 bits
Re:How many bits? (Score:5, Insightful)
To achieve a one million - to - one ratio, requires 20 bits.
20 bits would be required for a gradient, but you could still accomplish a 1,000,000:1 ratio with a 1-bit monochrome image.
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If it was a 12" 4k display 1,000,000:1 at 1-bit would still be pretty interesting. Everything could be half-toned pretty well.
I was the last nerd to upgrade from a paperwhite grayscale VGA monitor ("256 shades of gray") to color. Also probably the only person to run Windows 3 on an IBM EGA graphics card in 'Monohcrome Graphics' mode on an MDA monitor. (better aspect ratio than Hercules Graphics)
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Congratulations! You're one of the 10,000 [xkcd.com] people today discovering floating point numbers! [wikipedia.org]
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To achieve a one million - to - one ratio, requires 20 bits.
4K video uses 36 bits per pixel, 12 bits per color. So you couldn't get a million intensities of one color, but it seems likely that the color gamut easily includes a million intensity levels.
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Wrong in 2 ways. First, learn about gamma. Second, the lowest brightness level can be defined to be zero, not one.
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I work for Dolby Laboratories, and am deeply involved with high-dynamic-range content creation and hardware.
We created the SMPTE 2084 [smpte.org] standard HDR EOTF (electro-optical transfer function.) It turns out that human perception is such that by choosing the luminance for code values to be just barely indistinguishable from the adjacent ones, you can get 0 to 10,000 nits (10x as bright as this Panasonic display) with only 12 bits. SMPTE 2084 is what all HDR TVs are using today.
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To achieve a one million - to - one ratio, requires 20 bits.
No. Imagine you have a candle and an airplane's landing lights. You only need 1 bit.
0 == 1 lumen
1 == 1,000,000,000,000 lumens.
That's a trillion to one contrast ratio with one bit. If you want to be really pedantic contrast ratio isn't actually interesting because while 1:1,000,000,000,000 is a high contrast ratio, it's actually impressive because of the dynamic range not the ratio.
0 = 0 lumens
1 = 1 photon
That would be an infinite contrast ratio. And also expressed by one bit but not what most people th
Plasma (Score:3)
Is this another Panasonic thing where they try to compete with an old technology (e.g. Plasma) while everyone else is switching to the new type?
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Quite possibly. But LCD is still better at some things than OLED.
Re:Plasma (Score:5, Informative)
What things are those? The only ones I know of (that prevented me from buying an OLED black Friday) were:
1. Cost. Thousands of dollars, LCD equivalents are now $600 for 55-65" 4k set
2. Input lag. While the physical panel is near instant, for whatever reason, the chipsets the current OLED manufacturers are using have more input lag than low input lag LCDs. Unacceptable.
3. Longevity. The LCD backlights are down to 80% brightness at 25,000 hours and will probably remain usable displays for perhaps 100k hours, give or take. (most like a capacitor will fail before the backlight does). At 25k hours the oled dyes age at different rates and the blue will be shot at that point.
4. Maximum brightness - harder to make the thin layer glow as hard than it is to throw in bigger backlights behind an LCD.
Re: Plasma (Score:2)
You may have been thinking of buying an LED TV. But and LED TV is not in any way the same thing as an OLED TV.
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LED TVs are LCDs.
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Also, I would agree with most of the things you list. Particularly, the color aging on an OLED.
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Colour aging isn't an issue. That can be compensated for much the same as high quality panels compensate for backlight fade or backlight differences.
Burn-in is an issue. I wouldn't buy an OLED for a computer monitor. I would for a TV. I'm on the fence about a TV with a Playstation or Xbox, but I don't need to be on the fence because the cost makes it prohibitively expensive in its current form.
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25k hours after manufacture or 25k hours of use?
After manufacture would be something of a problem, that's just under 3 years.
Of use would seem to be something less of a problem, that's 8 hours a day, every day for 8.5 years. Telly turned on at 4 pm every day and left on until midnight.
There's some segment of home users that might be affected and some institutional use cases, but that's a lot of on time and frankly in most settings where I see a TV that's been on that long it looks like shit anyway and that
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Its hours of use. For use as a computer monitor, that's 14 hours a day for 4.9 years. I would rather the equipment either lasted longer than that or were inexpensive enough that I can easily swap it. At $1500-3k for a 4k OLED TV, that's a bit too expensive to throw it away that often.
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Your assuming the replacement cost is the same as the purchase cost. For almost any IT thing I have ever seen in the last three decades the replacement cost is *ALWAYS* lower than the purchase cost. The idea that a 4k OLED TV will cost the same in 8 years time as it does today is a frankly ludicrous suggestion.
I would love to buy and OLED TV, problem for me is the smallest sized ones are still way to big for my lounge.
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Ok, sure, but it's still $1500 for something that I won't be able to use in a few years because of bad color balance.
When LED backlit computer monitors get dimmer, you can just turn up the brightness to compensate (since you run them at about 50% of their maximum potential brightness generally at the beginning). You can't do this forever - but the lifespan is probably 100k total hours which is 20 years if nothing else fails.
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Burn-in is the issue for OLED displays. It's not a problem for watching movies but I wouldn't buy a current-gen OLED for a computer monitor or for video games.
Another OLED issue is that the blue pixels wear out faster than the red and green, leading to a colour shift over time.
I give very little weight to anecdotal evidence on these issues, and there's plenty around. I want to see specs from the manufacturers or, even better, from independent testers, that give brightness reduction numbers for each of red
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My understanding is that the blue pixels fade faster only in RGB-OLED displays. The current generation of LG OLEDs don't use RGB-OLED, they use W-OLED (which they've got patented so only LG have them), which suffer from none of the fading or burn-in that older sets did.
Still, they're expensive, but the downsides of the early models are affecting perception of the current models, despite the current models exhibiting none of the earlier issues.
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Another OLED issue is that the blue pixels wear out faster than the red and green, leading to a colour shift over time.
The colour shift is a solved issue based on panel design, and controllers that compensate for the shift.
Burn-in is the real issue, as is dimming over a long period.
Colour shift / colour reproduction is not, and given the choice I'd prefer an OLED panel for colour critical work.
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Next year Apple will finally come out with their OLED gadget, and Samsung and the others will be developing gadgets with these high contrast LCD displays.
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And people will go up to the ATM machine and punch in their PIN numbers to withdraw the cash to pay for these LCD displays!
Sorry you made it too easy! ;)
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Yeah.
Samsung will so totally copy-cat Apple and use OLED displays once Apple have started using them! ...
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Is this another Panasonic thing where they try to compete with an old technology (e.g. Plasma) while everyone else is switching to the new type?
OLED is still too expensive for the majority of people, creating better LCD is definitely a positive. Just like some of the best displays for years after LCD came to dominate were still plasma's I expect we will see some excellent LCD screens for a long time to come.
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I'll take this over OLED (Score:3)
OLED looks great the first year, then starts yellowing. I'd rather have a panel that looks good for the 7-10 years I'll probably use it. This sounds good to me.
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OLED looks great the first year, then starts yellowing.
Yeah I agreed with you. Past tense. It's not 2008 anymore, and OLEDs last significantly longer now.
Is it good enough for a TV? Time will tell. But the "dies after a year" meme should go the way of the George W Bush memes.
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Get a current one, and maybe get a clue that a lowest cost panel in a device designed as a computer is not the same thing as a large quality panel designed specifically as a panel.
I mean shit based on my experience with LCD based phones, that technology is just not ready for the prime time on big displays.
Not new, HDR LCD has been around for a while (Score:2)
This has been out for a while. Dolby bought BrightSide which first pushed individual LED backlighting for HDR LCDs AFAIK.
Maybe they have now gone to individual pixels instead of white LED? Same idea, just higher res and probably lower cost.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrightSide_Technologies [wikipedia.org]
2005 BrightSide Demos
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2005/10/04/brightside_hdr_edr/8 [bit-tech.net]
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