Amazon Pursues More Renewable Energy, Following Google, Apple, And Facebook (fortune.com) 85
An anonymous Slashdot reader writes:
Amazon will open a 100-turbine, 253-megawatt wind farm in Texas by the end of next year -- generating enough energy to power almost 90,000 U.S. homes. Amazon already has wind farms in Indiana, North Carolina, and Ohio (plus a solar farm in Virginia), and 40% of the power for AWS already comes from renewable sources, but Amazon's long-term plan is to raise that to 100%.
But several of the world's largest tech companies are already pursuing their own aggressive renewable energy programs, according to Fortune. Google "has said it's the largest non-utility purchaser of renewable energy in the world. Apple claims that in 2015, 93% of its energy came from renewable sources, and its data centers are already 100% run on renewables (though that claim does rely on carbon trading). Facebook, which also uses Texas wind facilities, is aiming for 50% of its data center power to come from renewables by 2018. Even slightly smaller companies like Salesforce have made big commitments to renewable energy."
Last year for the first time utilities actually bought less than half the power produced by wind farms -- because tech companies, universities, and cities had already locked it down with long-term contracts.
But several of the world's largest tech companies are already pursuing their own aggressive renewable energy programs, according to Fortune. Google "has said it's the largest non-utility purchaser of renewable energy in the world. Apple claims that in 2015, 93% of its energy came from renewable sources, and its data centers are already 100% run on renewables (though that claim does rely on carbon trading). Facebook, which also uses Texas wind facilities, is aiming for 50% of its data center power to come from renewables by 2018. Even slightly smaller companies like Salesforce have made big commitments to renewable energy."
Last year for the first time utilities actually bought less than half the power produced by wind farms -- because tech companies, universities, and cities had already locked it down with long-term contracts.
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There are one or two data centers in Texas...
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Texas is not connected to the national grid, so it's not really going to be used exclusively by Amazon or any tech.
Who cares? It is all fungible. CO2 avoided anywhere helps everywhere. It is all a silly PR stunt, so it is silly to complain that it isn't slightly less silly in some meaningless way.
Re: Not grid connected (Score:2)
How do you dump electricity you don't need?
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Into a pump for underground compressed air for later use, into a pump to push water uphill for later use, into a resistive load, i.e. a heating element in a large body of water, into some large flywheels, or in the last resort, "feather the props".
Obviously, options 1-3 above add to cost, and option 4 is somewhat wasteful, but it's not a technical problem.
Re: Not grid connected (Score:3)
That's not really dumping it. That's converting it to potential energy. The OP was implying that it gets dumped, as in wasted. Which I don't understand. Because if you don't use electricity, it doesn't really get generated in the first place.
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Because if you don't use electricity, it doesn't really get generated in the first place.
Yes, it does get generated. Excess power can be dumped to the grid at a negative price of about -1 cent per kWh. At that price, someone will take it off your hands. So then why would you generate it and lose money? Answer: Subsidies. Wind producers receive a federal subsidy [breitbart.com] of about 2.3 cents per kWh. So it makes sense for them to continue to generate and push the power into an overloaded grid that has no use for it, because they make money doing that.
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So it makes sense for them to continue to generate and push the power into an overloaded grid that has no use for it, because they make money doing that.
And while wind companies are doing that, what are the coal/gas/oil plants doing? The rational move for them is to not generate once the price of electricity drops below the price of whichever fossil fuel they use, which means less CO2 is produced. It may not be an exact "every watt of wind power generated means one watt equivalent less CO2" but it's still reducing CO2 emissions.
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And while wind companies are doing that, what are the coal/gas/oil plants doing?
Gas turbines shutdown.
Coal continues to generate, because the latency is too long to be worth shutting them down for a price dip only lasting an hour or two.
Nobody uses oil for grid connected power generation.
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Nobody uses oil for grid connected power generation.
In the US? Well, maybe not significantly, but it's a big factor for Hawaii.
Given that that state is ripe for Wind and Solar, they really need to buckle down and implement a solution.
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Nobody uses oil for grid connected power generation.
They absolutely do. The power plant in my East Coast town alternates between bunker C oil and natural gas, depending on price.
Subsidies all around (Score:2)
Wind producers receive a federal subsidy of about 2.3 cents per kWh.
Oil and gas energy producers receive substantial subsidies as well. Ironically wind and solar would need smaller subsidies if we didn't also subsidize fossil fuels to compete against them.
So it makes sense for them to continue to generate and push the power into an overloaded grid that has no use for it, because they make money doing that.
You could say the exact same thing about the fossil fuel power stations. The only reason they continue to generate and push power into an overloaded grid is because they make money doing that. The only meaningful question is what source of power do we actually want to use. For my money give me the cleaner renewables wh
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No. I'm talking in the physics sense. A generator with no load on it produces voltage but no current. It produces electricity, but it doesn't go anywhere. The only way you can physically dump excess electricity is by using it to do work. Which makes it not excess by definition.
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How do you dump electricity you don't need?
Sell it at a discount to people that need to charge their electric cars.
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Often the utilities are forced to purchase electricity that they don't need and have to dump.
That may happen in Oregon, but not in Texas. In Texas electricity is priced in spot markets and updated many times per day. Texas utilities are not compelled to pay a fixed price, and occasionally the spot price even goes negative [slate.com]. Of course, the wind turbine operators still make money because of federal subsidies, but you can't blame that on Texas.
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The data center uses power from whatever generation facility is closest to it. Off-site renewable source serve to offset that power usage.
Electricity is a commodity - there's no difference to the end user what source generated the exact electricity they're using at any given moment. It's about offsetting usage.
Same thing happens to a different extent to homes with solar panels on their rooftops. At least in states that allow for net metering, homes have oversized installations, which generate far more power
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The data center uses power from whatever generation facility is closest to it. Off-site renewable source serve to offset that power usage.
Electricity is a commodity - there's no difference to the end user what source generated the exact electricity they're using at any given moment. It's about offsetting usage.
Same thing happens to a different extent to homes with solar panels on their rooftops. At least in states that allow for net metering, homes have oversized installations, which generate far more power at peak than the house will actually use. That power is pumped back out into the grid and goes to the nearest neighbors, with the solar owner getting credit for that power, allowing their daytime production to be used to offset their evening usage.
So, Amazon when creates a wind farm in Texas - even if that power isn't used directly by their facilities, it does still have the same exact effect on reducing CO2 generation, by effectively offsetting their CO2 production by supplying clean energy elsewhere.
Question (you're smart and I'm not talking down to you; really looking for your wisdom, literally): what happens if we maximize solar and wind for power conversion? Note, I didn't say generation; I said conversion. A field with wind turbines cuts down on the kinetic energy outflow from the area; in solar conversion, the excitation of electrons reduces the emitted heat to the atmosphere from the Sun's contact with the ground (ground being surface things, not literally all ground; mountains, trees, etc). I
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Didn't get a penny to post that. I've been reading how people get paid to post on Slashdot ever since it was Bill Gates who was supposedly paying Windows people to bash Linux, and have yet to receive even a single offer for my time. Pity me.
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I only read up until it said "Read the rest of this comment", and even then, I mostly just skimmed.
Either way, the amount of land area that needs to be utilized to by solar to provide enough energy for everyone, everywhere was tiny. I mean, TINY. Like, here is a link (disclaimer, I'm not a scientist, just a believer and fan):
http://www.techinsider.io/map-... [techinsider.io]
So... Do we think that much solar is going to have a tremendous effect on our ecosystems? Especially considering that it could be much more spread out t
Re: Not grid connected (Score:2)
If you can't read and think about my information and thoughts, why should I read yours? I already know what your position is. I'd be wasting my time, too.
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Sorry, but if you want to blame somebody for what our society "is coming to", then you better first look in the mirror, and then turn around and look behind you: You'll see fat cats like Drumpf standing there.
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Sorry, but if you want to blame somebody for what our society "is coming to", then you better first look in the mirror, and then turn around and look behind you: You'll see fat cats like Drumpf standing there.
I thought it was just going to end with "fat cats". They contribute, too. Literally.
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So... are you guys for free markets or not.. it's so hard to tell because your position changes with the direction of the breeze.
That's the problem, psychologically. It's about "ME" and "NOW". It's about people getting what they want, but choosing when to care or not care about their effect, given what they get now as a benefit.
Not to be offtopic, but I have a family member that believes that recycling is the only way to go. I said, "[name], you understand that recycling recycles recyclable materials, but requires a lot of energy to be used in the process, right?"
Ok, so I answer with, "Right. So if you believe we're contributing
Re:Long-term contracts, ... with God? (Score:5, Informative)
Last I checked, wind and solar guarantee exactly zero power coincident with demand.
Check again; solar is follows the morning demand curve pretty closely and can be better matched to demand in some markets by facing panels westward.
Some places have very reliable winds and pretty good forecasting, which has gotten much better in the past several years.
So your "zero power coincident" is a gross exaggeration.
Re:Long-term contracts, ... with God? (Score:5, Informative)
Also, "demand" is not fixed. With variable pricing, consumers and companies can be incentivized to use power when it is cheap, and conserve when it is not. Many appliances, such as dishwashers, clothes washers, and dryers, have a delay feature. ACs and refrigerators can be pre-chill when power is cheap, and idle their compressors when prices spike.
My city (San Jose, California) has smart meters, and my AC will automatically shutdown if there is a power shortage. I get discounted power at other times for allowing the power company to install the cutoff switch.
My wife has a Tesla, and it is preprogrammed to start charging at 2:30am, when power is cheapest. As electric cars are more widely adopted, they can act like a sponge to soak up surplus power whenever it is available. There are also proposals to have idle electric cars feed power back to the grid during shortages.
Wind (Score:2)
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"It is far more reliable that solar or even wind on other places"
Really?? That's impressive given how sunny Texas and the Southwest is, in so many, many places.
I've heard the same said of winds outside Copenhagen; their offshore Middelgrunden turbines benefit from relatively mild but amazingly steady winds, with the turbines producing some power over 95% of the time.
nothing to do with the environment (Score:2)
What's happened is that Amazon has come to realize that there is little point in continually pay someone for power when you can just get your own. This is simply a cost cutting measure to grow their AWS profit margin and ensure they can compete with competitive pricing. It's also good PR which they can use as ammunition for marketing. Amazon execs don't give a fuck about the environment, it's all about the money.
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What's happened is that Amazon has come to realize that there is little point in continually pay someone for power when you can just get your own. This is simply a cost cutting measure to grow their AWS profit margin and ensure they can compete with competitive pricing. It's also good PR which they can use as ammunition for marketing. Amazon execs don't give a fuck about the environment, it's all about the money.
Actually, I suspect they do. I know a lot of higly placed people that actually do care about it. If thy didn't, for the immense drain on profitability as claimed by some - they'd never be allowed to go this route.
What is changing, is that despite what a lot of CogDis people think, a threshhold is being crossed. CogDis people can bring out the same old memes of it won't work, it won't work economically, it won't work because the sun isn't shining or the wind doesn't blow 24/7 - but this stuff's gettin' re
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Nights and windless days are very much reality. It is a fact that wind and solar are not economical, else subsidies wouldn't be necessary to get them built. You speak of a threshold; well, Germany stepped over it years ago. It didn't work out, and they are stepping back. Might be we want to rethink, and make decisions based on facts and reality.
Spouting the same old same old. Was your great-grandpappy all pissed off when we switched over from whale oil to kerosene? Or changed over from those bright carbon arc lamps to delicate little filament lamps?
Do you fly into a rage when you see an LED lightbulb? https://banledlighting.wordpre... [wordpress.com]
Load leveling is the issue, and it's an issue for every form of power generation. And without a milliwatt of solar or wind, it's heavily involved in power generation right now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Your nasty-ass response is indicative of a typical feeling of loss of control and/or grandiosity.
Your incredible sensitivity is indicative of incredible sensitivity. Give me facts, or I'll give you a tissue to cry in.
Not sayin', just sayin'
People who deny progress have been denying progress forever.
It's how we get people who are still refusing to vaccinate their children, even though the researcher and lawyer who started the Anti-Vaxxer movement have long been discredited.
It's how a lot of people believe that the Earth was created in 4004 b.c.e., and that their deity created all life in it's
No perfect options. (Score:2)
Nights and windless days are very much reality.
So because a technology doesn't solve every problem it is useless? Idiotic response. First off, solar technology is terrific for offsetting air conditioning and refrigeration energy demand which is a huge part of our energy consumption, particularly in southern areas. Second, it is exceptionally rare that the wind is calm everywhere all at once and transporting power is a solved problem. Third, batteries are a thing and there already are batteries big enough to supply enough energy for a house to get th
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I'd take it more seriously if they were to directly power their data centers from renewables 24/7 only instead of some of the funny math of just spending more money to "buy" renewable energy from grid producers at a large enough volume to say they run on 100% renewable (or worse, carbon credits).
Because on the back end, they're still dependent in terms of actual consumption on grid baseload generation even if they have a balance sheet that says otherwise.
Further, trying to run full-time off wind+solar would
Missing the point (Score:2)
I'd take it more seriously if they were to directly power their data centers from renewables 24/7 only instead of some of the funny math of just spending more money to "buy" renewable energy from grid producers at a large enough volume to say they run on 100% renewable
Power is fungible [wikipedia.org]. Whether the electrons generated go into your factory or someone else's at the end of the day has the exact same environmental effect. Worrying about which electrons are being used is idiotic and misses the point. Furthermore the best locations for renewable power are not necessarily the best locations for the end users of that power. It's not practical for Apple to relocated from Cupertino to Texas just because that happens to be a good place for a wind farm.
Because on the back end, they're still dependent in terms of actual consumption on grid baseload generation even if they have a balance sheet that says otherwise.
Who claimed otherwise? Th
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Power is fungible [wikipedia.org]. Whether the electrons generated go into your factory or someone else's at the end of the day has the exact same environmental effect. Worrying about which electrons are being used is idiotic and misses the point.
Oh boy - now you have them wondering what electricity has to do with mushrooms....... Furthermore the best locations for renewable power are not necessarily the best locations for the end users of that power.
Exactly, and its really the same for all sources of power, except perhaps nuc.
North and west of me is a lot of coal generated power. Its there because the mines are there. Population density is maybe 25 per square mile - that's a number off the top of me noggin - but it's mostly forest and cow pas
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Yeah, that's what they are - load levelers at best. They're not replacements and NEVER will be.
You are missing that they don't actually have ot be attached to a grid. I can easily generate all the power that I need from solar. Wind isn't practical in my house location.
All I'm waiting for is the right moment.
I've found All of the naysaying by your ilk to be way off. My local energy use through using devices that use a lot less energy, and by properly insulating have exceeded the naysaer's predictions by an incredible amount. Installed a top efficiency gas furnace that extracts so much heat that
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Actually, I suspect they do. I know a lot of higly placed people that actually do care about it. If thy didn't, for the immense drain on profitability as claimed by some - they'd never be allowed to go this route.
I'm not arguing, but that is a typical rationalization by people in that position. If they aren't making the decision and getting involved with the risk of moving forward with it, they can have any opinion and share it any way they want to others for the purpose of self image. See: politician.
Re: nothing to do with the environment (Score:2)
I wonder how much they get in tax credits for this.
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They're doing it now because it's economical. And that's a good thing. We want this trend to continue.
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Who cares why they do it? Companies do things for profit. (Which is not a bad word and not a bad thing.)
They're doing it now because it's economical. And that's a good thing. We want this trend to continue.
Even though the amount of energy used to create these solutions is taking energy from other sources that can't be replaced? The only viable option other than the evil nuclear energy one is solar. However, solar will alter the weather and climate on the planet after a certain threshold is reached. I'm not completely aware of the sources of ALL of the metals needed for panel manufacturing, but I do know that there is only so much metal for conductivity to destinations, and energy needed for the manufacturi
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However, solar will alter the weather and climate on the planet after a certain threshold is reached.
Citation?
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However, solar will alter the weather and climate on the planet after a certain threshold is reached.
Citation?
Simple logic if you understand thermodynamics. Find a parking lot and a building with a white roof. Observe which one releases the most latent heat. That would be the blacktop. Panels are not reflective; they absorb the breadth of visible light frequencies and emit IR after the sub is removed. Hence latent.
http://www.solarpoweristhefutu... [solarpower...future.com]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Does that suffice?
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What's happened is that Amazon has come to realize that there is little point in continually pay someone for power when you can just get your own. This is simply a cost cutting measure to grow their AWS profit margin and ensure they can compete with competitive pricing. It's also good PR which they can use as ammunition for marketing. Amazon execs don't give a fuck about the environment, it's all about the money.
You're a smart cookie. Anyone who thinks otherwise (in terms of motive) is almost completely unaware of how business executives think. People assume that they think the same way Joe across the street does about global warming, and the same way that Bob next door does about them being a great incentive-pusher for everyone to get on-board with.
What the eff ever. If it doesn't benefit them directly, they don't effing do it. It's not that hard of an equation, and it applies everywhere to ANYONE who is IN TH
Re:perfect (Score:5, Funny)
Clearing the way for drone delivery (Score:4, Funny)
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They just want to kill a bunch of birds to reduce the chances of bird-strike drone-delivery failures.
There are a LOT of turbines where I come from - Orkney 59N. Not only is it windy here but we have a lot of birds too.
There are not mountains of dead birds under them. There are not people complaining about them either. The big ones belong to the electricity company and the smaller (4-8m blades) to individual farms. They can't be bad for farm animals either.
Orkney may be small (pop about 20,000) but it is self sufficient in electricity. If Tesla opened a shop there, we could cut down on another fossil f
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They just want to kill a bunch of birds to reduce the chances of bird-strike drone-delivery failures.
There are a LOT of turbines where I come from - Orkney 59N. Not only is it windy here but we have a lot of birds too.
There are not mountains of dead birds under them. There are not people complaining about them either. The big ones belong to the electricity company and the smaller (4-8m blades) to individual farms. They can't be bad for farm animals either.
Orkney may be small (pop about 20,000) but it is self sufficient in electricity. If Tesla opened a shop there, we could cut down on another fossil fuel too.
Interesting!
Could you be cut from the HT power grid and have power 24/7/365?
wind-powered drones (Score:4, Funny)
Delivering by truck is such a dinosaur when you can deliver via wind-powered drones.
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This has more to do with scoring brownie points than it has to do with wanting to use renewable energy
No. Its about pumping less crud into the atmosphere and having fewer holes in the ground to pump different crud into.
Exotic Locales (Score:2)
What's interesting is the seemingly unlikely locations [wikipedia.org] where projects are actually in place or being planned. So much for the argument that profitable wind locations would be rare or hard to reach.
Amazon@ Fowler Ridge Indiana [google.com]
Amazon@ Paulding County Ohio [google.com]
Amazon@ Perquimans and Pasquotank Counties, North Carolina [google.com]
Amazon@ Scurry County, Texas [google.com]
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What's interesting is the seemingly unlikely locations [wikipedia.org] where projects are actually in place or being planned. So much for the argument that profitable wind locations would be rare or hard to reach.
Amazon@ Fowler Ridge Indiana [google.com]
Amazon@ Paulding County Ohio [google.com]
Amazon@ Perquimans and Pasquotank Counties, North Carolina [google.com]
Amazon@ Scurry County, Texas [google.com]
The ignorance astounds me. Good info to back up the point of waste of materials for self-image enhancement!
Yaay Green! (Score:1)
When are these companies (and future bandwagoners) going to realize that people seeing you as a "green helper" is not going to drive them to purchase products or use services through you -vs- others? All people want is what's going to please them NOW, and they'll do whatever it takes and rationalize away any environmental help.... Well, until an argument for environmental health comes up and then it suddenly matters again.
This is not trolling or flamebaiting. It's just psychological proven fact.
The compan