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Verizon Begins Charging a Fee Just to Use an Older Router (dslreports.com) 180

Posted by msmash from the in-some-other-news dept.
Karl Bode, reporting for DSLReports: Several users have written in to note that Verizon has informed them the company will begin charging FiOS customers with an older router a new "Router Maintenance Charge." An e-mail being sent to many Verizon FiOS customers says that the fee of $2.80 will soon be charged every month -- unless users pay Verizon to get a more recent iteration of its FiOS gateway and router. Since Verizon FiOS often uses a MOCA coax connection and the gateway is needed for Verizon TV, many FiOS users don't have the ability to swap out gear as easily as with other ISPs. "Our records indicate that you have an older model router that is being discontinued," states the e-mail. "If you do plan to keep using your current router, we will begin billing, on 9.29.16, a monthly Router Maintenance Charge of $2.80 (plus taxes), to ensure we deliver the best support."
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Verizon Begins Charging a Fee Just to Use an Older Router

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  • Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:28PM (#52549725)

    UK person here - Seriously, if this happened in the UK there'd be a gigantic 'fuck off' from the customers and probably god knows what in complaints and legal stuff against the company involved.

    You guys need to open up that market and vote with your feet! If companies think they're able to put that kind of crap in the T&C's and get away with it then it means you lot are:

    a) too comfortable
    b) fucked
    c) being subjected to some backhanded deal
    d) probably profit somewhere.

    • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by __aaclcg7560 ( 824291 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:30PM (#52549737)
      Nickel-and-diming your customers to death is an American tradition.

      • "Nickel-and-diming your customers to death is an American tradition."

        Yep, and then claiming that they hate you for your freedoms.

    • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Informative)

      by netsavior ( 627338 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:41PM (#52549803)
      Most areas in the US have 1-2 broadband providers. And in areas where people actually subscribe to Verizon FIOS, the only other option (if there is one) is a far slower connection. In my home town (before Frontier took over for verizon), your choices were: 2mbit DSL or 100mbit FIOS

      No voting with your feet when the country is 40 times bigger than the UK, geographically speaking, and under-served in the broadband market.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        No voting with your feet ...

        Well, you can vote with your feet, you just need to use those feet to move to a location which has the ISP you want. Everyone makes choices. It is not uncommon to choose a location with the "best schools", or the "shortest commute", or the "best baseball team", why not the ISP you want?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by DewDude ( 537374 )
        I happen to live in an area served by Comcast or Verizon. Comcast outright refuses to upgrade the drop line to support modern digital service. I made attempts starting 10 years ago to do anything to get off my aging DSL connection; but every time Comcast came out to "check out the situation"...I was immediately met with "Your line is too old for service" and talks of getting another line run failed.

        So...basically...I have a Verizon monopoly because Comcast refuses to spend money on their network; the oppo

      • Your description makes it sound like there is a gigantic market where a commodity of ever increasing importance to customers is being massively underserved by market actors ? All that in the country where it is supposedly the easiest to incorporate and start competing ...

        And I know that deploying fiber and stuff is capital intensive but considering the potential it still sounds like a huge opportunity .

        • Sure, except for the dog-in-the-manger ferocity of any incumbent provider fighting tooth and claw to keep out any new competition.

          If it's an opportunity, it's an opportunity for the incumbent only whenever they feel like it. And if they can make as much money easier, they'll take that instead. But under no circumstances will it become an opportunity for anyone else.

    • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Informative)

      by zieroh ( 307208 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:41PM (#52549811)

      Here in the US, I think most would agree that AT&T and Verizon are equally terrible. The difference, though, is that A&T achieves that through gross incompetence, while Verizon actually goes out of their way to be evil.

      • My choice in Verizon or Comcast. I will pretty much pick dialup over Comcast.

        • I lived in NJ for a couple of years, and those were my choices too. I took Comcast. It actually worked out OK. I guess I was lucky, but it was fast and mostly reliable. I was careful, however, when I canceled service (moved away) to cancel the card I used to pay my Comcast bill so they couldn't continue to charge me, as I had read that was a common tactic of theirs. Also, getting them to cancel service was a giant PITA.

          Verizon wouldn't have been any better, and most likely much worse. My neighbor had

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by pubwvj ( 1045960 )

      One word: Monopoly

      Here in the USofA a lot of people don't have a choice. We have one provider for phone and internet. We can't even get satellite because the mountains block it. So, we deal with the single provider who charges us $130/month for basic phone and slow internet. Forget broadband.

      • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Archangel Michael ( 180766 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @06:15PM (#52550009) Journal

        Wrong Word.

        The correct words are "Franchise Agreements". And those are granted by your local municipality. Stop blaming businesses for corrupting your local mayors and council critters.

        The problem is easily solvable, because it is a problem of the "last mile" and a simple bond measure would solve it. Issue bonds to build out Conduit pathways to all city dwellings and commercial buildings. Pull fiber to each house, back to a single (or more) COLO facility. Offer any/all providers a spot in said COLO facility to offer whatever they want, to any/all of the people hanging on the other end of all that fiber.

        1) Competition will create lower prices
        2) Competition will create additional options (a la carte??)
        3) Competition isn't for last mile, it is for service.

        IF you are pissed at your options, make this proposal to your City council next time the Franchise Agreements come up for renewal. MAKE them work for you, they are your Public Servants (or should be)

        • It is not called Franchise but concession.
          Mac Donalds etc. are Franchises.

          • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Informative)

            by AthanasiusKircher ( 1333179 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @07:12PM (#52550335)

            It is not called Franchise but concession.
            Mac Donalds etc. are Franchises.

            Wrong -- by federal law, cable providers often operate as local franchises [fcc.gov]. That's the term the government uses:

            A variety of laws and regulations for cable television exist at the state and local level. Some states, such as Massachusetts, regulate cable television on a comprehensive basis through a state commission or advisory board established for the sole purpose of cable television regulation. In Alaska, Connecticut, Delaware, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and Vermont, the agencies are state public utility commissions. In Hawaii, regulation of cable television is the responsibility of the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. In other areas of the country, cable is regulated by local governments such as a city cable commission, city council, town council, or a board of supervisors. These regulatory entities are called "local franchising authorities." ...

            The Communications Act requires that no new cable operator may provide service without a franchise and establishes several policies relating to franchising requirements and franchise fees. The Communications Act authorizes local franchising authorities to grant one or more franchises within their jurisdiction.

            Etc.

            By the way, you may want to look up the original definition of "franchise," which had to do with governments granting the right to do business in a particular area or for a particular set of goods, services, etc. The word was later extended in meaning to refer to large corporations granting rights to individual owners to sell their company's products, etc. as in your McDonalds example.

            • Interesting, probably a different usage of words regarding british/european english and american?
              On the other hand the law texts you cite seem to indicate that the concept is also very different.

              In germany e.g. cities don't have "authority" like that. The 'concession' is granted to use the property/land of the city to draw wires/cables or lay down pipes. Of course there is a process to decide if a company may place gas pipes e.g.

              However in principle you apply for the right to dig up the ground and put what

        • IF you are pissed at your options, make this proposal to your City council next time the Franchise Agreements come up for renewal. MAKE them work for you, they are your Public Servants (or should be)

          Exactly, but don't be either surprised or dissuaded when they play the 'make up procedural rules as they go' game to block your proposal and/or your speech (out of order!).

          They will most likely need to be removed/impeached/voted out, as long-time city council members where franchise agreements have been the norm often begin to feel *entitled* to these deals and the graft they bring.

          It will take those concerned to do door-to-door canvassing/petition drives, peaceful public assembly/protest, buying advertisin

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by HiThere ( 15173 )

            You also need to be prepared for state laws making it illegal for a municipality to intrude into what should be commercial space. (This has already happened, but I don't know in how many states, or which ones. IIRC it was somewhere near Chicago, but not Illinois.)

            • You also need to be prepared for state laws making it illegal for a municipality to intrude into what should be commercial space. (This has already happened, but I don't know in how many states, or which ones. IIRC it was somewhere near Chicago, but not Illinois.)

              Yes, agreed. Excellent point.

              You're right in that the fight will eventually likely go State-level and maybe even Federal. Still, the effort has to start at the local level.

              Strat

            • What "commercial space"? Under my plan, the last mile is functionally equivalent to building roads, so that UPS, FedEx and the USPS can all deliver to your house.

              The ISP part is in the COLO, not in the fiber plant.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by pubwvj ( 1045960 )

          "IF you are pissed at your options, make this proposal to your City council next time the Franchise Agreements come up for renewal."

          You have no concept of how it actually works. Go back to kindergarten.

          • I have no concept of how it works, and yet you don't actually explain where it went wrong. Please, enlighten me on how Comcast has exclusive rights to my city, without the city being involved.

            Until then, childish taunts don't work on me.

        • IF you are pissed at your options, make this proposal to your City council next time the Franchise Agreements come up for renewal. MAKE them work for you, they are your Public Servants (or should be)

          I think the broader point here is that it surprises us in most of the rest of the world that competition is a rare phenomenon that you would have to campaign for through your city council.

          America is seen as the land of the free market and competitive industry, so it surprises us to see a default of frequently-abusive local monopolies.

          I only really know the setup in the UK, but here there is just no option for a city council to say 'we're not going to have competition in this area'.

          Competition isn't perfect

        • Except, of course, in the 38% of states who have laws that "protect" incumbent franchise holders and make it harder for municipalities to do that.

          Even your example of a "partnership/joint venture" is expressly prohibited in Louisiana under state law (which was created through lobbying after AT&T and Cox failed to block, with lawsuits, a certain city from creating a municipal fiber utility).

          The law does provide a process for cities to do things their own way but it also involves a vote. And who do you th

          • Except, of course, in the 38% of states who have laws that "protect" incumbent franchise holders and make it harder for municipalities to do that.

            The Municipalities don't have to compete with the service providers, just provide the transport layer (Layer 1-2) for use by the ISPs.

            • Exactly how would a municipality provide the transport layer without a lease/contract/partnership and thus not running afoul of the law? And why would incumbent phone/cable companies want to give up their line monopolies and participate in such a scheme?

              I mean, we've already been through that sort of scenario. In the 90s, the FCC forced phone companies to lease lines to competitors for DSL service.
              Life was slightly better. The only thing was DSL generally sucked and cable companies weren't forced to lease t

    • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Ultra64 ( 318705 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @06:50PM (#52550227)

      >Seriously, if this happened in the UK there'd be a gigantic 'fuck off' from the customers

      Wait, wait, are we talking about the same UK where the citizens have to pay for a 'TV license'?

      • Re:Really, this happens in America? How?? (Score:4, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @07:23PM (#52550381)

        Is that the same UK where you have to ask your ISP to look at porn?

        • dear ac;
          you don't have to turn every issue into a pissing match.

          yes - ISPs are required to offer porn filtering here. Some implement that as opt-in, some as opt-out.
          This is probably not a good thing.

          We also had a lying prime minister who led us to war on false information.

          So, while the UK certainly isn't perfect - I'm not sure how either of these are relevant to a discussion on how ISPs get to price-gouge their customers.

      • >Seriously, if this happened in the UK there'd be a gigantic 'fuck off' from the customers

        Wait, wait, are we talking about the same UK where the citizens have to pay for a 'TV license'?

        The very same UK where that TV license funds an independent, unbiased and world renowned BBC. BTW, my phone, 50mbps broadband, cable TV and TV license still comes out less than the figures bandied about here from US ISPs (assuming the $130/month price I saw elsewhere).

      • You get a lot for that TV license, compared to the shit that comes through the typical channels.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by naris ( 830549 )
      The answer is mostly b, but also c & d. Most places in the USA have only 1 viable option for broadband so your choice is either to pay the exorbitant fees or not have internet.

    • This story skips over a point I wish was included - are the current customers, with the soon to be 'out-dated' routers already paying a monthly fee for their (old) router? I suspect they are, so this is simply a change in the amount, not so much a 'new' fee.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Agripa ( 139780 )

      You guys need to open up that market and vote with your feet!

      You are talking about a people who cannot even open up the market for politics. If you are not one of the two political parties or do not vote for the two political parties, then you do not count.

      How many politicians does Verizon have to buy to get these perks? Both of them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kriston ( 7886 )

      I don't know why this is getting all this attention.

      If you want to keep your old, obsolete router, then want you to pay extra.

      If you want to get a new, modern, router for no charge, then you pay nothing. You then magically get higher speed data.

      Source: I have the new FiOS router. I pay nothing extra for it. I am now getting 50+ megabits for no extra charge. I am also able to get 1 Gigabit service. I am using my existing DD-WRT router with full inbound/outbound access.

      Reading comprehension is not a cri

  • Those might be my only 2 choices in our new home.

    dave

    • Re:Which is worse, Verizon or Comcast? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Crashmarik ( 635988 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:44PM (#52549833)

      Comcast is really bad. But when you live in area that actually has competition they get better.

      Ex. In my area ATT began a fiber rollout and Comcast suddenly discovered customer service and competitive pricing.

      • Comcast is really bad. But when you live in area that actually has competition they get better.

        Ex. In my area ATT began a fiber rollout and Comcast suddenly discovered customer service and competitive pricing.

        That is one thing I respect about Charter, no competition in my area but the customer service is pretty good. Though maybe I'm just lucky.

    • Wow, asking which is better, Verizon or Comcast?

      That's like asking, "Which is better? Clinton or Trump?"

      .
      .
      .

      Now I made myself sad.

      • At least in the Clinton.Trump fiasco, you can choose Johnson. When your choice is Comcast or Verizon, you can only choose no Internet.
    • Comcast is fine if you don't look at or think about your bill.

      • Or try to find out what service you're even supposed to be getting provided, since unlike pretty much every other service provider in America, Comcast goes out of its way to NOT tell you what you're even GETTING from them.

        I couldn't even get a straight disclaimer-free answer from them about what channels I was supposed to be able to get. Comcast really, Really, REALLY HATES to give customers ANYTHING in writing, unless it's armored with disclaimers that basically say, "Everything we just said might be a com

        • I couldn't even get a straight disclaimer-free answer from them about what channels I was supposed to be able to get. Comcast really, Really, REALLY HATES to give customers ANYTHING in writing, unless it's armored with disclaimers that basically say

          In other words, when they're in dispute with ESPN on rates and decide to pull the plug to force a deal, they don't want to lower your fee during the dispute because no channel is promised. There's always a reason.

          • The thing is, other networks like Dish, DirecTV, and Uverse have the exact same potential problem, yet they'll HAPPILY send you an email that tells you exactly what channels a particular package sold to customers in your area has included, as well as the current fees & taxes.

            If you call or email DirecTV, Dish, or Uverse, they'll tell you EXACTLY what additional fees and charges apply, including the precise amount of taxes. Obviously they'll change if the city/county/state/whatever changes its tax amount

    • Re:Which is worse, Verizon or Comcast? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by fred911 ( 83970 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @07:32PM (#52550425) Journal

      Whereas this forced upgrade is a new way to forcibly fuck their consumer and I find it pretty reprehensible, at least Verizon
      has had a pretty documented history of protecting their customers ID's from the *AA. Got to hand it to them for that,

      2012
      https://torrentfreak.com/veriz... [torrentfreak.com]

      2003
      https://epic.org/privacy/copyr... [epic.org]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by antdude ( 79039 )

      Lucky you, you have two options. Some of us, like me, don't. No DSL and FIOS here. Just cable that is expensive and not reliable. :(

  • If the router can't handle IP6 why not ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Crashmarik ( 635988 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:42PM (#52549819)

    Lets face it there have been changes in networking standards over the years, and it's a cost to deal with legacy anything.

    • I got the email from Verizon, but it sure looks like my current ("discontinued") router supports IPv6. It has options for stateless vs stateful address assignment, address ranges, gateways, etc.

    • What are you basing the legacy support cost of IPv4 at $2.80 / month on? FTA:

      I reached out to Verizon, who -- as in the e-mail notice -- suggested the fee was necessary to pay for "frequent repairs" on older gear.

  • Probably not me (Score:3)

    by PPH ( 736903 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:43PM (#52549825)

    I have FiOS broadband only (not from Verizon). All I have is a 100Base-T cable from the ONT (Optical Network Terminal) on the outside of my house**. What that cable goes to is none of my provider's* business.

    *Frontier. Actually a pretty decent company to work with. When I upgraded my defunct wireless broadband to their system, they 'stuck' me with a maintenance contract (couple of bucks a month added) but said I could cancel it once the system was up and running and I wouldn't be calling for support. So when I called to cancel it, the account sales person tried reading me all the reasons I should keep the add-on, like anti-virus, O/S support, etc. I just said, "I run Linux" and she said, "Never mind. You won't be needing all that support." Charge removed, no arguments.

    **When the installer showed up and put in the ONT, he was getting ready to crawl up in my attic with their MOCA coax. I just handed him the Cat 5 cable (pulled right to the ONT location) and told him that would be all I'd be needing. He just plugged it in and left with a big grin (no crawling through the attic insulation that day).

    • Re:Probably not me (Score:4, Funny)

      by thevirtualcat ( 1071504 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @05:52PM (#52549885)

      That reminds me of a conversation I had with a FiOS installer circa 2009.

      "Er, can you run CAT5 instead of coax?"
      "No, you need coax for TV."
      "You're not installing TV, though. Just Internet. Can we run CAT5?"
      "You might get TV later."
      "Nope. I won't. And even if I did, you'd be sending out another installer anyway. Can we run CAT5?"
      "I don't know how to crimp CAT5..."

      • the cat5 port on my ONT never passed data when i tried it. it had lights, but nada.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward

          You need to call FIOS tech support to have the port turned on. This disables the coax port, and they basically expect you to maintain everything inside your home. If you have a little knowledge it isn't tough to do this, unless you need that MOCA for the FIOS boxes.

      • Maybe he was ashamed of his colorblindness, you insensitive clod!

  • Using your own gear is pretty easy with FiOS (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward

    [quote]Since Verizon FiOS often uses a MOCA coax connection and the gateway is needed for Verizon TV, many FiOS users don't have the ability to swap out gear as easily as with other ISPs.[/quote]

    This isn't really true. Their gateway isn't required for Verizon TV. Their cable boxes use a MoCA LAN to get guide and on demand data, and the Verizon Gateway has built-in MoCA WAN and LAN, but you can always use your own MoCA adapter connected to your router for LAN to the cable boxes. You can also request CableCar

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gQuigs ( 913879 )

      It's certainly never been obvious to me.. I don't actually care about TV it all.. Goes downstairs and checks...

  • What's the justification? (Score:3)

    by iCEBaLM ( 34905 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @06:36PM (#52550139)

    How in the world does it cost verizon more money if customers choose to use a certain router? This should be illegal.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cdrudge ( 68377 )

      There is a non-zero cost for maintaining supported legacy devices. Training, validation with new components, firmware, etc. I'm not saying that the fee is justified. Most of that should just come along with operating a business and be included as part of your normal fee. But you can't say that it just doesn't cost Verizon money to keep legacy hardware on the supported component list.

      Don't want to pay the fee, tell Verizon you purchased your own router.

  • chargeback for "not best support" (Score:3)

    by ljw1004 ( 764174 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @07:03PM (#52550295)

    Dear Verizon,

    I'm happy that you're charging me a fee so you can continue to offer "best support". If at any time I find you are not offering me the best support, or indeed have no occasion or need to offer me support since everything just works fine, I shall be obliged to issue a chargeback.

  • To be fair... (Score:3)

    by dohzer ( 867770 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @07:15PM (#52550351)

    To be fair, the NSA fine Verizon for every user that doesn't use one of their backdoored routers, so Verizon are just passing on this cost.

  • ISP should be forced not to change for any hardware! It must be part of the base rate or you must be able to buy it with no added fees for having your own hardware.

    Comcast forces you to rent there hardware at an added cost on the static IP plans on top the static IP fees.

  • So long as you're just using FiOS for Internet, use your own NAT router (If you're using them for TV, you'll need MoCA for the STBs). Call them up and say this:

    I want to switch my ONT from MoCA to ethernet. Please release the hardware lease on my equipment, too. I'm about to connect my new equipment.

    That's all you need to do :)

  • Possible workaround: Complain (Score:3, Informative)

    by Squach ( 177719 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @07:46PM (#52550511) Homepage Journal

    My cube-mate called up and politely said "WFT!?", and after some sighing, Verizon agreed to send him a new box for free. So that's something.

  • It's not the home router part they care about (Score:3, Interesting)

    by LamaBrew ( 3993271 ) on Wednesday July 20, 2016 @10:22PM (#52551251)

    I too got this email but it was a head scratcher since I've used my own router for as long as I've had Fios (since 2007). I called them to say I don't have one of their routers.After some back and forth they agreed I didn't - what I do have however is an old Motorola NIM100 that acts as the MOCA to ethernet bridge in these systems. I responded with "well since I don't have your router I don't have to pay $2.80/month" and the script response more or less was "we don't care what you have, we're charging you $2.80/month or buy *our* new router for $60".

    I nicely explained that since I've had this forever it clearly didn't need "support" and I was not going to pay $2.80 month. I explained that I wasn't blaming the support person for my annoyance but could she ask her manager if they wanted to lose a customer over this nickel and dime charge as I don't see any difference between FIOS and Comcast and would just as soon switch on the principal of the thing (I happen to be able to get both). She put me on hold for a few minutes and said they would still charge me $2.80/month, but credit me $3.00 month. Though only for 12 months...so I guess I'll have to call them every 12 months until they cut this silliness out, or the thing breaks and actually does have to be replaced.

    In all fairness to the support people there this is only the 2nd time I've called FIOS support and both times it was a good experience.

  • Misleading (Score:3)

    by kriston ( 7886 ) on Thursday July 21, 2016 @02:59AM (#52552115) Homepage Journal

    This affects nobody. You can use any router you want, and you do want to use the new FiOS router to get the highest speeds over the MoCa connection.

    You merely set the router you want to use to be exposed to the internet using the "DMZ" feature. I have the latest FiOS router and it works perfectly with DD-WRT just fine. I have full inbound/outbound control without restrictions.

  • Verizon is trying to get rid of PPPOE (Score:3)

    by jakedata ( 585566 ) on Thursday July 21, 2016 @06:36AM (#52552653)

    I have had FiOS as long as anyone. The original deployment used PPPOE encapsulation for traffic, and required your router to sign in before getting an IP address.

    Newer installs are regular Ethernet and simply rely on the router MAC address for access control. PPPOE and Ethernet configurations are currently co-existing on the FiOS network I am using, I can use both at the same time with two routers, one with DHCP and the other with PPPOE.

    They are maintaining dual infrastructures with entirely separate public IP address ranges. While charging their customers to encourage them to get rid of the legacy ActionTEC routers is annoying, they did send me a new one for free. I'll possibly set it up some day if I am forced to.

  • That's why you have them run CAT5 from the ONT into your house. The wire is usually there already, since they install it "just in case" you get phone service (apparently it hooks into the CAT5 port on the ONT. If you have home phone service, you have to use coax for internet since ethernet is then used for phone). Then you can use your own router (in my case a VM running Vyos). We have FiOS TV as well, so I have a device acting as a MOCA bridge (on it's own VLAN, I want their stuff isolated from my home network) and their devices connect to that via coax. You just need to make sure you forward the correct ports to the right set top box so you get the TV Guide and other features. If you have a DVR, then that's the device that everything is forwarded to, and it shares the information with any other set top boxes it sees.

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