The Death of Aibo, the Birth of Softbank's Child-Robot 152
New submitter pubwvj writes: Sony is killing off their robot Aibo, stranding the 150,000 or so owners with no support, repairs or parts other than cannibalism. Now we have another Japanese company, SoftBank, releasing a robotic 'child.' Eventually, they too will discontinue the production of parts and support, beginning the process of killing off all those 'children' that are spawned. As robotics become (far) more advanced at what point will it be murder for a company to discontinue a product line?
it's murder, already (Score:5, Insightful)
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I'm sure the executives make a killing on this deal, while the engineers scream bloody murder to the marketing department in their cubicles. The marketing department accuses the financial division of suffocating their projects to death, naturally. The scene behind the CEOs door will be pure, murderous mayhem.
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But of course, then it won't be acknowledged.
Just print your own parts (Score:5, Interesting)
By the time we have to worry about sentience, won't we have good enough 3d printing?
Of course it's also a little worrying to imagine an AI that's sentient and impossible to murder.
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By the time we have to worry about sentience, we'll have been extinct for over a century.
Seriously? (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, I'll bite: when it's sentient.
This place is going to hell lately.
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When will it be murder to not donate organs?
Same answer.
Re:Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
OK, I'll bite: when it's sentient.
Chimps fit most definitions of sentient. They can use language, and express complex thoughts. They are self aware, and recognize themselves in a mirror. They can work together to coordinate complicated activities. Yet killing a chimp is not considered "murder".
Re:Seriously? (Score:4, Insightful)
[...] Yet killing a chimp is not considered "murder".
Perhaps it should be?
Re: Seriously? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: Seriously? (Score:2)
Your English is clearly fantastic; infinitely better than my Francais (five years) and my Nihongo (ten years); the problem is your inability to grasp an incredibly complex issue in anything but the simplest, emotionally-loaded terms. So no, I don't want to see only politicians' daughters able to murder their unborn children (I won't lower myself to phrasing it any other way) without having to resort to a rusty back-alley coat hanger...
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If you want my take on the matter, it isn't about abortion versus killing chimps. Humans thrive on killing. It's our innate nature. We do it because we enjoy it.
And please people, that is not deniable. We fuss and moan about how "war is hell" and all that happy horseshit, but we do engage in it endlessly, murder each other over the remote control of the televisio
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As a Christian: all killing of other people is murder (i exclude accidents) - your turn now!
Means I accept your argument. I agree mostly. Abortion is stupid, but then again, so is denying easy access to birth control.
Problem is that many of the anti abortion people are actually pro birth. And anti sex for purposes other than procreation.
To which I offer, which is the greater sin: Aborting a fetus, or wearing a condom/using a diaphragm/using birth control pills?
I am pragmatic. Idealists of all stripes hate me. And we are no more going to stop people from engaging in sex than we are going to
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I, as my church, am anti-sex outside marriage and pro-sex inside marriage - this is bo
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It's funny. Having an abortion is wrong, in your eyes, yet people such as yourself have no problem with women smoking, drinking, doing drugs or being obese while pregnant.
Apparently it's a crime, in your eyes, to "kill" the fetus in one fell swoop, but slowly strangling or poisoning the unborn is perfectly acceptable.
When you and your kind start protesting around pregnant women who do/are any of the above, or work toward laws to force pregnant women to lead healthy lives to, you know, protect the life of
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>It's funny. Having an abortion is wrong, in your eyes, yet people such as yourself have no problem with women smoking, drinking, doing drugs or being obese while pregnant
What is it called when you state your opponent's position and then attack it.
asshattery?
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Note that I'm specifically not addressing the topic of abortion at all, for the sake of my post, I'm referring the to the killing of a human that exists outside the womb.
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It makes the Bennet Haselton era look like a golden age.
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The consumer rights aspect is more interesting. The sell these things as something you can bond with. In Europe things like washing machines have to have a 10 year supply of parts..
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Toploaders are the way to go. Frontloaders can suck it.
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Well, you can at least draw a parallel to withholding medicine from a patient who can't quite pay.
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A more apt comparison would be a drug company stopping the production of an important but unprofitable drug. I imagine there are still people who own fully functional Aibots but not the number isn't high enough to justify Sony continuing to make spare parts.
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It rather depends. Is that just giving up doing it themselves, or does it also include preventing others from doing it?
Never ? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not even murder to kill a cow to eat it. It's not murder to euthanize your old and sick cat. It is not murder for a woman not to have childrens. Why could it be murder to NOT PRODUCE a robot, which is a even barely an assembly of plastic and metal pieces ?
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Is it murder to refuse to perform a heart transplant, even if one is available? Probably not.
Is it murder to withhold a supply of insulin from someone who needs it to live? Maybe more so.
Is it murder to voluntarily stop producing new insulin shots while retaining a patent that prevents others from doing it? Complicated.
Of course if robots never advance to the point that you can consider them alive, it's all irrelevant here.
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Is it murder to refuse to perform a heart transplant, even if one is available? Probably not.
Is it murder to withhold a supply of insulin from someone who needs it to live? Maybe more so.
Is it murder to voluntarily stop producing new insulin shots while retaining a patent that prevents others from doing it? Complicated.
Of course if robots never advance to the point that you can consider them alive, it's all irrelevant here.
By that time, however, they'll probably seize the factories and start producing Terminators.
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http://www.technologyreview.com/article/401750/electroactive-polymers/ [technologyreview.com]
robot muscles are real. this makes human shape robots one step closer.
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The issue isn't about not producing a robot. It's about not producing spare parts for a robot. Does natural wear and tear on the elements of a mechanical being compare to the natural aging of a human? If so, does the refusal to produce spare parts (or perhaps allow others to produce spare parts) equate to the intentional withholding of medical care to a human?
This doesn't matter so much when they're just bits of simple code, but should a sentient AI ever come to exist, this may become a much more serious
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The Aibos don't compare. But later robots may, if they reach a state of sentience.
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Cow - Same basic generic structure and common inheritance chain, very similar basic biochemistry, quadruped limb structure, similar basic brain structure, and many other similarities. So not only is it 'murder' it is 'cannibalism' too. It is only modern convention that stops us eating other humans.
An old basic rule of xeno-biology is that (by generalization) you can only eat your own relatives.. (life from Earth) :D
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Again, she doesn't need to have either abortions or use the pills not to have babies. Stopping a robot factory is the same as a woman deciding that she will no longer / never get pregnant because she's had enough / too many / never wanted one (or is simply not into man) and I have a hard time imagining that a woman deciding not to make her eggs viable would be considered a murderer anywhere in the world.
Thus, even if murderer can be applied to a larger subset of things if we remove the human requirements, i
When it can say "I don't want to die". (Score:1)
Then it will be able to organize political parties.
dumb (Score:4, Insightful)
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This is the dumbest post I've seen on Dicedot.
You must be new her... oh.
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Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. WTF is going on at Dice?
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That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. WTF is going on at Dice?
You posted a comment, right? In their mind, that means more ad impressions. Maybe it's even true, somehow and somewhere down the line; it makes the site more likely to come up in a search.
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well, they think that since they posted singularity stupid AI shit last week they should post some this week too.
seriously, the editors don't even try to EDIT. what's the point of even having them?
I mean, fuck.. it would become murder to discontinue to produce robot parts??? like what the fuuuuuuuck??? driving over an AIBO is not murder. it's a stupid discussion that should be had only after the subject if the discussion would be capable of being murdered in the first place!
Blackfellers are people too, Bruce (Score:2)
Strewth, Bruce! You know it's against rule number two.
The real question is... (Score:5, Informative)
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Exactly. I've seen boring, annoying and even silly articles on Slashdot, but this one and the divide by zero are a completely different breed. I feel like I'm being subtly trolled. It's reassuring to see at least a few posts like yours.
Re:The real question is... (Score:4, Insightful)
I actually though the divide by zero post was interesting -- not because I took the suggestion that language designers define x/0 to be 0 seriously, but because I thought it was an interesting challenge to explain to someone who thought this might be a good idea why it's really a terrible idea.
Also there are applications of algebra to sets of things other than numbers, like the permutations of a Rubik's cube, or to matrices, or to error correcting codes. These applications are called "abstract algebra", although in truth they're really no more or less abstract than the usual kinds of algebra. In these kinds of applications questions might arise that sound really strange, like "Is 1 necessarily different than 0?" Ask 99.9% of reasonably educated people that question and they'll consider it stupid, but press them and they can't provide any better answer than "it just is."
I think it's always interesting to try to explain something that most people think is "self-evidently" true -- by which they mean they have no idea why it's true. In 1984 when O'Brien torments Winston Smith with the non-sensical assertion that "2 + 2 = 5". But I doubt that a mathematician would find such a statement particularly disturbing; it depends on what you mean by "2", "+", "=" and "5".
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It isn't that it is self evidently true, it's that by simply posing the question you appear to be so idiotic as to dumbfound the person you question.
The numeric symbols and arithmetic signs you are using are very clearly and universally defined. It is only when used in certain very specific contexts by people too lazy to make up different symbols to express a non-standard meaning that there is any reason to presume that they mean anything other than the normal and obvious definitions.
You might as well argue
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The numeric symbols and arithmetic signs you are using are very clearly and universally defined. It is only when used in certain very specific contexts by people too lazy to make up different symbols to express a non-standard meaning that there is any reason to presume that they mean anything other than the normal and obvious definitions.
That's certainly not the case for the arithmetical signs, which have non-arithmetical interpretations in many abstract algebras.
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Which is exactly what I said. Instead of creating a new symbol to represent a different concept an old symbol is being co-opted. Those abstract algebras are edge cases, and if there is no indication that someone wants to speak in those terms the rest of us presume that the normal rules for arithmetic apply. And in many, possibly most cases, people aren't even aware that such non-standard uses are even possible.
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When simulating analogue systems using digital systems you ideally want both 1 and 0 to be in the same noise margin, so effectively 1 does = 0. Of course in reality you normally have considerably bigger noise margins but 1 still equals zero. /0 is a similar kind of question and a pretty important one given that its at the very heart of calculus h = limit(n --> 0)..
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I should have scrolled down prior to my last comment. Well said...
Never, that's when. (Score:1)
Death comes for everyone (Score:2)
Why shouldn't death come for a robot? Where is it written that robots should be granted immortality, even if they are sentient?
All things come to an end. Even metal and plastic.
Re: Death comes for everyone (Score:2)
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No spoilers from me but I want to point out that that movie had a completely mind-fuck ending. I enjoyed it a great deal. I was not expecting it to end like it did and the twist was well done. I do recommend this movie.
Re: Death comes for everyone (Score:2)
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Apparently you haven't seen Galaxy Express 999.
There though human consciousness was transplanted into machine bodies to achieve immortality. Unfortunately, the end product usually winds up acting like a selfish entitled prick.
Four year life span (Score:3)
Aibo: "I want more life, fucker!"
Re:Four year life span (Score:4, Funny)
Aibo: "I want more life, fucker!"
Uh, someone should have probably told him/her/it that we now live in a disposable society.
It's also become rather obvious that the disposal rate mirrors our attention spa...woah, is that the new iPod in a different color?!?...
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Aibo: "I want more life, fucker!"
ITYM "Rye ront rore rife, rucker!"
Never (Score:5, Funny)
But I feel like I died a little reading crap like this on Slashdot.
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I miss the days when Slashdot tags were sort of a group vote, the more people that entered a tag, the more likely it would show up. Crowdsource publicly visible tagging, But then Slashdot realized that it was used more for people to point out the flamebating, slashvertisement, and just generally fuckwitted posts than it was to actually tag the article's content. A feature that got dropped like a hot potato, and which I am very much missing right about now.
The Difference (Score:2)
The difference is that humans can't live forever due to medical/technical realities (as yet), whereas a robot theoretically could.
At the moment this is just another case of a supplier refusing to supply proper maintenance support and spare parts when it suits them (bastards), but if robots ever become sentient then it could be akin to murder, by denying the "necessities of life"
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Fundamentally theoretically humans should be able to live almost forever.. Aging is effectively a suicide program, because to nature once you have reproduced you are disposable..
I think (Score:2)
Not in my lifetime, my lifetime, mi lyftm,...Dave?
Never (Score:2)
A likely outcome/transition point we will see during the Singularity.
Re: Never (Score:2)
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Saying that a strong AI controlled robot can't do something because a human can't is like saying that a computer can't do huge numbers of calculations in a second because a pigeon can't.
Re: Never (Score:2)
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And yes, that does assume that it has both mobility and dexterity. Why on earth would you have an AI robot that didn't have those things? So it can look at you and have deep thoughts? You can do that with a computer and a webcam.
Re: Never (Score:2)
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I never said we would have AGI robots on "day one". I said that by the time with have robots with AGI, they will be able to repair themselves without continuing support from the manufacturer.
We have shared AI resources RIGHT NOW, including a massive skill repository on Youtube that some AI's are already using to learn tool use.
could be just a rumor, but... (Score:1)
I hear the guys over at 8chan have ordered several dozen of these robotic children and a 55-gallon drum of axle grease.
Never (Score:2)
Never.
Sony is getting to be as bad as Google (Score:2)
Bought a laptop 16 months ago, now the backlight is dead. Of course, they scrapped that division and nobody makes replacement parts. When you get tired of something, just ditch it - no need to concern yourself with support.
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Sony has pretty much always been the worst in the industry as far as after support of their laptops. They stop providing new drivers almost immediately. That was a real bitch back in the days when you could really only ever get mobile drivers from the OEM because the GPU manufacturer wouldn't supply them. Neomagic ugh.
Two literary references (Score:1)
Just the robot equivalent of organlegging [wikipedia.org]
...what (Score:2)
The first "cute" robot (Score:2)
The death of share, the resoration of comments (Score:2)
That's what I'd like to see on Slashdot.
Dumb question (Score:2)
at what point will it be murder for a company to discontinue a product line
At a point likely atleast several centuries (if not millenia) in the future.
3d scanning/printing ... Duh (Score:2)
We're not without options. Get over it.
It the consumers that drive the market (Score:2)
If the consumer wants to keep their robot around the parts will be there much like you can still get parts
for cars made in the 1980s. As patents expire robot parts for mass produced robots will be made by secondary sources.
Sentimental attachment to a sentient being would be far stronger than attachment to a preprogrammed toy.
Cannibalism? (Score:2)
I don't see how eating my neighbor gets me parts for my Aibo - unless he has one, too.
I think you meant that "cannibalizing" (i.e., removing parts from other currently functional) Aibos might be the only way to get said parts - similar words, two VERY different meanings. Even so, functioning Aibos need not necessarily be cannibalized, as I'm sure there may be one or two broken Aibos lying about for parts, too.
Say a Binary Prayer (Score:1)
Unfortunate Edit by SlashDot (Score:2)
Unfortunately SlashDot editors deleted the key take home paragraph and instead sensationalized my submission. Aibo and the 'child' robot are not the point. Murder is not the point. The point is product support. The last paragraph, which SlashDot editors deleted from the submission, was:
"This leads to the thought that it is time for all products that are discontinued to be forced into the public domain, to be open sourced. If a company is going to discontinue something then they need to release all the infor
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Whatever that's supposed to mean...
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Poor translation between character sets. It was an apostrophe as in "it's" - no idea why that happened. Looked fine on my end until it posted on SlashDot.
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So what does "continue it is useful life" mean?
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It means a typo. But I think you should have already figured that out by now... :)
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"Unfortunately SlashDot editors deleted the key take home paragraph and instead sensationalized my submission. ..."
Sad, from my perspective its an interesting question. I am developing real Strong AI systems - that are intended to achieve self awareness.. With real Strong AI it is a very complex question. The basic answer is that the core design will become mostly unchanging once working, and that an AI can be moved from an obsolete or broken hardware core to a new one. The machines will generally also car
$commentSubject (Score:2)
It's an example.
It's a convenient and concise way to illustrate the Full Retard overclocking that's been hyping up, the entitled SJW chronic victim slash terminal offendee complex. This entitlement, the demands and imposed obligation, it draws a plain contrast will all the "IT'S MY RIGHT MY CHOICE" derping that's always going on two posts away, yet the irony seems to whoosh on.
The expectant arrogance is also ignorant. Even if, IF,
EOL OpenSource? (Score:1)
should have known (Score:2)
People should have known this day would be comming, it's been 9 years since they stopped production on the robots themselves, so 9 years later stopping the service is even quite a long time..
And with 3D printing, it shouldn't be hard to replace parts that are damaged..
And just think how far robotics would have been if Sony didn't stop the aibo, and they did sell just enough to make a small profit..
One time there was even the notion that a new aibo would be released which would have a CELL processor inside (
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There is one significant difference.
While I never owned an Aibo, I do have several Roombas. The Roomba lacks one thing Sony put an effort into with the Aibo - a programmed personality put in something that looks like what most people would be attached to: a cute clumsy puppy. This is much more amusing to interact with than a hockey-puck shaped noisemaker that zig-zags around the room bumping into things like a drunk sailor. The Roomba has the personalty of a soap dish, but I do have to admit it is someti
Ob. Red Dwarf (Score:2)
So the robots won't have unlimited repair, but will instead age and die?
...but the Abios will all go to Silicon Heaven. It must exist, or where would all the calculators go?
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I see what you did there.
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I see what you did there.
Er... unless I'm so subtle that my words sometimes go over my own head, it was just a typo.
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Is it murder what Dice is doing to SlashDot?
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You lost the bet.
Plus the Slashdot editors edit off the rest of my original post which was the important part and they sensationalized the title into something totally different. What you, and probably most people don't realize, is submissions can, and do, get heavily edited by the Slashdot editors. It looks like the edit for sensationalism. A pity.