NVIDIA Announces SHIELD Game Console 116
MojoKid writes: NVIDIA held an event in San Francisco last night at GDC, where the company unveiled a new Android TV streamer, game console, and supercomputer, as NVIDIA's Jen Hsun Huang calls it, all wrapped up in a single, ultra-slim device called NVIDIA SHIELD. The SHIELD console is powered by the NVIDIA Tegra X1 SoC with 3GB of RAM, 16GB of storage, Gig-E and 802.11ac 2x2 MIMO WiFi. It's also 4K Ultra-HD Ready with 4K playback and capture up to 60 fps (VP9, H265, H264) with encode/decode with full hardware processing. The company claims the console provides twice the performance of an Xbox 360. NVIDIA demo'ed the device with Android TV, streaming music and HD movies and browsing social media. The device can stream games from a GeForce powered PC to your television or from NVIDIA's GRID cloud gaming service, just like previous NVIDIA SHIELD devices. Native Android games will also run on the SHIELD console. NVIDIA's plan is to offer a wide array of native Android titles in the SHIELD store, as well as leverage the company's relationships with game developers to bring top titles to GRID. The device was shown playing Gearbox's Borderlands The Pre-Sequel, Doom 3 BFG Edition, Metal Gear Solid V, the Unreal Engine 4 Infiltrator demo and yes, even Crysis 3.
Re:This advertisement brought to you by Dice (Score:5, Informative)
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Yes.
Exactly.
Product launches are not news.
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Dice floods Slashdot with product launches as "news".
I wonder how much the vendors are paying them to promote their products?
I don't care what class of hardware they're shilling on a given day. Product launches belong on hardware review sites, not an IT related discussion forum.
WTF is there to "discuss" about a product launch? Whether you hate/love the vendor? Whether you believe their "increased spec X" claims? To rant that you'll never buy one or rave that you've got to have one?
Where is the m
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Recycled Hype? (Score:2)
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No, you're thinking of the SHIELD portable which was the same thing but with a tiny LCD and battery. They're removing that and are charging the same price.
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Except not the same CPU or memory, or really much else of the hardware other than being the same architecture.
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I was confused too, didn't this thing already exist? I really think they should have picked a new name.
Re:Recycled Hype? (Score:5, Informative)
This is actually the third "nVidia SHIELD" product. There's now a Shield Portable, Shield Tablet, and this new Shield Console.
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This is actually the third "nVidia SHIELD" product. There's now a Shield Portable, Shield Tablet, and this new Shield Console.
I'll wait for the Hybrid version, I like the gasoline option, you know, just in case...
although it would need to have a great frames per gallon ratio!
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Sony: Playstation, Playstation 2, Playstation 3, Playstation 4, Playstation Portable
Microsoft: Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One
nVidia: everything is just called "SHIELD"! (derp)
iMac (Score:1)
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But an iMac has always been a desktop computer, Apple has different names for different categories of products such as iMac, MacBook, Mac mini, etc.
The three pieces of nVidia hardware are all called "SHIELD" (all uppercaps too it seems) and it makes me believe they're all compatible with each other. I didn't bother to look it up because I don't care about it.
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MachDelta was much nicer than you.
Pirating just got a big boost! (Score:1)
More consoles that support PC games...means more developers make games for PC...means more games for ME to pirate! YEAH!!!
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Not really, I think PC is going to be the red-headed stepchild for AAA games for a long time to come - the money just isn't there as much.
Consoles will be where it's at for the time being because of the money aspect - PC ports will continue to generally suck due to poor ROI unless you're an indie developer (where ROI can be measured in publicity generated and not actually dollars).
I mean wh
Steam sales vs. used console games (Score:2)
I mean what's one of the biggest draws of the PC platform? Steam sales! Yet I see new PC games that are just a few months old going for 40+% off easy.
The publisher makes more revenue from each copy sold in a Steam sale than from each used console game disc sold by GameStop.
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yes, but each of those discs was sold new for $60.
Imagine a new console game selling 500000 copies whether disc/download at 60 bucks vs 1000000 copies at 5 bucks.
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Imagine a new console game selling 500000 copies whether disc/download at 60 bucks vs 1000000 copies at 5 bucks.
I'm assuming you're talking about 1. PC games with comparable scope to console disc games, and 2. the first year of sales, as opposed to several years later when a console disc game is likely to have gone out of print. Am I right? If so, I'd love to read a few sources.
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selection bias...we all know that PC "master race types" like you tend to be pushy about PC gaming and tend to "encourage" others to go PC and tend to only hang out with other PC gamers and know little of consoles in general And it's worse if said "master race type" is from the UK or Europe.
PC has always played second fiddle to consoles in sales in general, for AAA titles anyway. In general mindset, there are only two time periods it didn't play second fiddle.
84-86: From the Death of the 2600 to the ris
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Said link is from a forbes article that links to the actual article...which is on a UK PC gaming website. Everyone knows that the UK and Europe is console hostile!
And note that the vast majority of that revenue is from MOBA's with DLC and MMO's with monthly fees, not actual game releases. In fact, quoting from the article:
Hereâ(TM)s another amazing statistic: DFC reports that their Top 20 list of PC games for 2013, in terms of usage, doesnâ(TM)t include a single game actually released in 2013. DFC says that MOBA (multiplayer online battle arena) titles like League of Legends and DotA 2 âoedominate everything else by an order of magnitude in terms of more usage than other products,â followed by MMOs, strategy games, and shooters.
In other words, PC gamers are cheap bastard MOBA, CS, TF2 and WoW players who do nothing but basically play ONE game over and over and over.
Consoles are the dominant platform for single
Xbox styling (Score:3)
As soon as I saw the console with its angular X-styled ridges and lime green LED "V-slash" I immediately thought XBox. So possibly not a good choice in styling if you want to stand out from the crowd.
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Styling? What the fuck is wrong with you? This isn't Project Runway.
No, its not. But if you want to make your product stand out, don't make it visually reminiscent of a major player in the same market space.
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In their defense - I thought 'video card box' because this matches a lot of colors/designs Nvidia uses.
Not knowing NVidia I now see that entry into gaming console market has created a rather unfortunate combination of styles. But you'd think that their marketing team would know what anXBox was and looked like.
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I agree, it looks like a slim, vertical, modernized version of the first Xbox.
Why the CAPS? (Score:1)
What retarded backronym have they come up with to justify writing it "SHIELD"? And how about "NVIDIA"?
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Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division?
Supreme Headquarters International Espionage Law-Enforcement Division?
Strategic Hazard Intervention Espionage Logistics Directorate?
Re:Looks Legit (Score:4, Interesting)
1. The Xbox One and PS4 are established gaming consoles with known names. This is new.
2. The Xbox One and PS4 have a big array of well known and popular titles available on it with interfaces designed specifically for use with a console remote. This game has very few, and lots of Android games not designed to work with a console remote. You need an internet connection to set up a game and to play, but you don't need a high speed connection during play to stream most of the content.
3. The Xbox One and PS4 have 500GB of storage - which is pathetic, considering how cheap a 2TB hard drive is these days. But 500GB sure beats 16GB.
4. The Xbox One and PS4 can play DVDs and Blu Rays. This can't. It can stream them, but the number of potential buyers with home media centers and their entire movie collection ripped for streaming is almost certainly much smaller than the number of potential buyers with DVDs and Blu Ray disks.
On the other hand:
1. This thing is cheaper.
2. If their game streaming service doesn't suck and the pricing is good, the game selection becomes way more attractive. It's still, so far, not as good as on one of the lead consoles. But I have to admit that spending, say, $10 or $15 per month to access to 30+ games looks more appealing than spending $50 or $60 per game even though the latter can be cheaper if you don't buy that many games over the life of the console.
3. Eventually I think most people - especially kids just entering the workforce now or in the next few years - may get out of the habit of buying DVDs and Blu Rays entirely and keep their entire movie collection in Vudu/Amazon Prime/Google Play/iTunes/whatever, in which case the lack of a drive is irrelevant. I have 300-odd DVDs (most purchased used), but I'm an old bastard.
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It'll be an easy sell for me, not Sony and not MS.
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Well iff they can launch it before X Mas they might get somewhere but they have to have some more momentum.
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It'll be an easy sell for me, not Sony and not MS.
It's ability to play PC games is based on streaming them from a Windows machine, so it's tied to MS the same as any Windows gaming box would be.
3GB RAM? (Score:1)
3GB RAM??
What, did they run out of it or something?
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Its an embedded system, 3gb is not uncommon in the embedded space, especially when you are trying to hit a certain BOM price point
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That was just NVIDIA's way of turning the volume up to 11, in their own odd binary way.
It's interesting, but... (Score:2)
Unless they can get a bunch of developer on-board for *native* games, then nobody will care.
The "streaming games" thing is a red-herring. For some reason, everyone seems to think it's a great idea, and it *is*, but not as the PRIMARY way to play games. Especially if you need a fairly powerful PC with an Nvidia card to do so. Streaming over the internet is okay, but it's SO dependent on your connection quality (and your bandwidth limits). It can work, though, obviously. But I wouldn't want to be stuck with
Re:It's interesting, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Streaming over the internet is okay, but it's SO dependent on your connection quality (and your bandwidth limits). It can work, though, obviously.
Maybe it'll work in the future, but it's a pretty poor experience right now.
I have the original NVIDIA Shield, the one that looks like a 360 controller with a screen strapped to the top. Late last year they announced a free trial for their GRID cloud gaming service. One caveat was that their servers were all in San Jose, and if you're too far it warns you. I tried it from my home in Illinois, and it was predictably horrible with just a ~70ms ping. I tried it again from California and it was only slightly less horrible with a ~20ms ping.
Driving games become drunk-driving games. Another driver comes in and hits you? Good luck recovering. Forget that there's a turn at some point in the track? You'll never react to it in time. Things that require constant micro-adjustments like drifting are virtually impossible.
Fighting games become button-mashers because you can't react fast enough to block or counter-attack.
Seriously, these were launch titles! I assume 99% of testing happened with local-network latency. If I were the guy at NVIDIA who okayed go-live, I'd be deeply embarrassed.
The only thing I'd use it for right now might be a turn-based strategy games, or other things where latency really has no effect on gameplay.
Re:It's interesting, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
interesting. I have not seen this but I heard about it.
a few years ago, I had an onsite interview (full day, quite exhausting) at nvidia and it was for a group that was doing the networking stuff for this whole architecture. they pitched the idea of network streaming from their own hosted supercomputer mainframes to users 'thin consoles'. lots of questions were asked of me about networking and optimization and even more about c++ corner cases (stuff that I rarely run into, but I guess they love 'gotcha!' programming questions, sigh).
I never got the job. it did look interesting, but they went with someone else.
maybe I don't feel so bad, if they really did botch the thing up. maybe they needed networking people more than they realized. of course, it was all young kids at the interview table and, of course, they 'know everything' (nvidia people do have a problem with ego; that came across pretty loud and clear during the interview).
perhaps they'll get it right in some followon product. its not a simple problem to solve, to be honest, but they sure do have enough money and manpower to throw at almost any problem.
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I have a SHIELD tablet I bought at release, and I use both the PC to tablet Gamestream and the online GRID streaming (nVidia sure like their caps).
Both work surprisingly well. I'll sometimes play XCOM on my tablet at work during lunch break and at first co-workers were asking how I got that to run on Android. My upload at home is only 10Mbps, but it's apparently more than enough for decent quality at 720p so I can play any Steam game at work.
For GRID, I've tested a few games, but the only game I played thro
completely irrelevant (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't want a console. I have an ultra-fast system that plays games, has wide compatibility, can hook up to a TV wirelessles or via HDMI, can surf the web, run netflix, watch live TV, etc. It's called my PC and it's faster. I also have no interest in using joysticks to control anything ever.
Sincerely,
everyone
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Dear slashmydots
The fact that consoles exist means than there are people who can't be bothered to pay a lot more for a PC and figure out how to set it up. You are dumb and you should feel bad.
Sincerely,
your parents
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I can't be bothered to pay more for a console when I already have a PC.
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If you have more gamers than gaming PCs in the household, or you want to play a particular console's exclusive games (or games that are on PS3+360 or PS4+XbOne but not PC such as Red Dead Redemption), then a console might be indicated. For example, what's the PC alternative to a platform fighter like PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale or Super Smash Bros.?
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I have no idea what the alternative, they're not the sort of game that sounds interesting. Most console games fit into that category.
Of course, the idea of playing the game in a TV from my couch does sound interesting, but then you're stuck with a godawful controller that's utterly useless for gaming compared to keyboard and mouse. If you manage it then the game has a bug but you can't fix it without subscribing and selling your soul to Microsoft or Sony, can't use mods, etc. So the console ultimately is
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but then you're stuck with a godawful controller that's utterly useless for gaming compared to keyboard and mouse.
You do know that back in the early days of PC gaming, games were often configured to use joysticks? But then the masses started buying C64's and PC clones and they were too cheap to buy cards with "game ports" and they complained about not being able to control to play the ports of NES games they bought. So then PC devs added keyboard controls...for action games....which sucked then and sucked now.
The mouse is a fine pointing device, it makes pointing easy. Too easy in my opinion. You probably knew abo
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There were games on terminal before there was even the first console or gaming computer or arcade games. So keyboards came first.
I never got used to a joystick, they were always awful. And the thing on the consoles are too much like that stupid nipple mouse thing on some laptops that are impossible to use (but which somehow some people like).
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There were games on terminal before there was even the first console or gaming computer or arcade games.
Yes, yes, because they didh't HAVE any other option. Besides the number of people who played games on terminals before things like the Coleco Telstar and Atari pong became mainstream was miniscule. Bunch of bearded unix-heads.
So keyboards came first.
Yes yes, but they're not designed for games, they're designed for text input.
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or maybe that the console maker themselves are making games?
Nintendo's not going to port to a Microsoft or Sony platform anytime soon. I mean, they might go Sega but not any time soon. Nor is Sony going to port Gran Turismo. Or Microsoft Halo.
"People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware." - Alan Kay
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So are the console makers creating the games, or are there independent companies who make the games? Sure, Sony may not want to port to a Microsoft platform, but certainly a third party game maker would be interested in doing this.
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Nintendo is making their own games. Sony and Microsoft both have stables of studios that produce software for their own platforms that are wholly owned subsidiaries.
Examples being Polyphony Digital and 343 Studios respectfully.
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Dear Nvidia
I don't want a console. I have an ultra-fast system that plays games, has wide compatibility, can hook up to a TV wirelessles or via HDMI, can surf the web, run netflix, watch live TV, etc. It's called my PC and it's faster. I also have no interest in using joysticks to control anything ever.
Sincerely,
everyone
Dear slashmydots,
We don't care about what you want. Today the cool thing is producing your own consoles, even though they are all pretty much Android TV Set Boxes, and people need these things, seriously. So buy this because you don't want to look like a douche.
kthx,
Nvidia
P.S. We say 3 gigs of ram, but what we mean is 512k of super ultra fast ram and 2.5 gigs of slow ram.
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Dear Nvidia I don't want a console. I have an ultra-fast system that plays games, has wide compatibility, can hook up to a TV wirelessles or via HDMI, can surf the web, run netflix, watch live TV, etc. It's called my PC and it's faster. I also have no interest in using joysticks to control anything ever. Sincerely, everyone
Congratulations, you want a computer. Go build yourself one.
Re:completely irrelevant (Score:4, Insightful)
Dear you
good for you. i have a tiny box that consumes less than 150 watts of power that fits neatly into nearly any place I put it. Not all games are FPSes and some are actually better controlled with a joypad. I have no interest in pushing everything to the limit. I just want to turn on and play(occasional 10 minute OS update not withstanding).
No love,
some console using jerk(me)
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Not all games are FPSes and some are actually better controlled with a joypad.
I don't see how this is a plus for consoles over PC, given that Xbox 360 wired controllers work out of the box with PCs and there are PC adapters for classic joypads [retrousb.com].
I have no interest in pushing everything to the limit.
PC can serve this as well, as integrated graphics on Intel's Haswell CPUs has surpassed previous-generation (PS3) console graphics.
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For all the handwringing that happens over modern console firmware updates, very little has changed in the "I just want to turn it on and play games" space.
While I'm willing to concede that PC gaming has it's place, the superiority complex PC gamers have is really toxic.
The two points you singled out highlight that there are bigger problems here. You didn't read that I'm more interested in having a relatively tiny machine I can have sit somewhere, relatively little power at peak with very little noise that'
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Appliances that play games and only play games have a place in the market because some people just want to play games and not have to fiddle with shit to make it work.
Let me know when these dedicated gaming appliances support community-developed game mods.
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right. Mods. So what? We're not talking about what you want out of gaming. PC games aren't going away because I bought a PlayStation or a Wii U or an XBox. Nor would I want that.
All I'm trying to do is explain why anyone would buy a console and what the upsides are. I'm tired of being told by every jerkoff who has a real fetish for shitting on other peoples non destructive, non infringing choices that consoles are all awful and I should go get a gaming PeeCee because it's so much better when I've already li
What's fiddly? (Score:2)
PC games aren't going away because I bought a PlayStation or a Wii U or an XBox.
You by yourself won't cause PC games to go away. But if enough other gamers abandon PC for consoles, even more major game studios will consider the PC unprofitable.
All I'm trying to do is explain why anyone would buy a console and what the upsides are.
In that case, does this page [pineight.com] sum up something close to your position?
I want a box that plugs into the TV and plays games with out being fiddly, loud, power sucking and horrible.
Integrated graphics have become adequate, and I don't see how a PC with integrated graphics is especially "loud" or "power sucking" compared to a PS3, 360, PS4, or Xbox One. I may be willing to grant you "fiddly" and "horrible" if you can explain them.
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My consumer choices do not require your approval.
Entitled attitudes like yours are making video gaming toxic. My opinions on why I dislike PC gaming aren't up for debate. I'm not asking you or the original poster why you folks bother with PCs am I?
Just to deal with fiddly and horrible, the second you have to think about a file system or running processes or system configurations, you've blown it as far as UX for games go. So there's fiddly and horrible for you.
Loud and power sucking? Well, you can build ext
I want to help make other platforms less bad (Score:2)
My consumer choices do not require your approval.
I never meant to imply that they did. If I did end up implying so, please help me figure out where so that I can learn not to do so again. I'm only trying to understand how consoles are ideal for your use case with the intent of figuring out how to make other platforms less bad. Or is wanting to know what makes a platform good itself an "entitled attitude"?
Just to deal with fiddly and horrible, the second you have to think about a file system or running processes or system configurations, you've blown it as far as UX for games go. So there's fiddly and horrible for you.
If you're moving saved games from one console hard drive or memory card to another, or freeing up GBs on a console's hard drive for a downloadable game o
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This entire thread. It started with some other person suggesting that console games were pointless, then I said no, here's why *I* prefer console games t
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I bought my PC to build and render 3d environments and assets for my webcomic [amongthechosen.com]. The fact that Steam was the second thing I installed and the Orange Box was the first PC game pack I bought is gravy - if the hardware can't be used for productivity I have no use for it and I'm not wasting money on it. Entertainment is a secondary function.
That said, the fact that Borderlands, Skyrim, Just Cause 2 etc. are all running barely-localized console interfaces makes me feel like the PC is a second-class citizen, shov
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the fact that Borderlands, Skyrim, Just Cause 2 etc. are all running barely-localized console interfaces makes me feel like the PC is a second-class citizen
In your opinion, what should a company porting a console game to PC do to improve the PC version's interface?
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In Bethesda's case the policy seems to be "let the community figure it out." Skyrim has SkyUI [nexusmods.com], which really takes advantage of the real estate (and cursor). Just allowing for mods and having well-documented tools is a step in the right direction - the people that are bent out of shape enough to do something about it will, and the people that don't mind aren't going to be looking for UI mods anyway.
JC2 handles fine on the PC - the fact that on first run it loaded to a "Press Start" screen felt like sloppy
How to explain default key bindings? (Score:2)
Just to make sure I understand you correctly:
the fact that on first run it loaded to a "Press Start" screen felt like sloppy QA
In other words, make sure key labels are correct for the current key bindings, and not hardcoded to the names of Xbox 360 controller buttons. Also make options in on-screen menus clickable with the mouse.
clearly explaining why the keys are where they are by default
How could such an explanation be done correctly?
PC users are typically sitting closer to smaller higher resolution screens whereas console users are typically sitting further back, looking at larger, lower resolution displays.
In other words, Steam Big Picture is atypical. And what's the difference between a 1080p HDTV and a 1080p desktop PC monitor, or between a 720p HDTV and a 720p laptop monitor?
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Not hardcoding names/functions is a an excellent idea; I'd totally accept seeing "Press Start" on the title screen on a console or if I had a controller with a "start" button plugged into the machine.
Re: keys - this is a UX issue with a number of different approaches. The keybinding menu on PC games is typically a lengthy list of $function [ $keybind ] - FORWARD [ W ], CROUCH [ SHIFT ], USE [ E ], etc. Some games present the keybind menu as a list, some break it into sections ("exploration," "combat," "u
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I have yet to see one that shows the keyboard as a graphic in the way I've seen some games show the controller, as a graphic or technical drawing with clearly defined labels.
Good point. I worked on a game back in 1999 whose key bindings configuration screen showed the current bindings on top of a generic keyboard. Will players be confused if I show a generic keyboard, such as a Unicomp Model M, instead of the specific keyboard model connected to the system?
Another problem is that controllers for PCs are highly varied. Except for Xbox 360 controllers, you can't predict how the controller's buttons are laid out [pineight.com] to display a diagram without either A. restricting yourself to Xbox 3
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I don't know how a controller reports itself to the system, but it probably makes sense to take a balanced approach - if it's possible to sniff an x-box controller then present the appropriate menus; if it's unrecognized then the oldschool List Of Options makes sense - while you can account for a good number of popular variables full coverage just doesn't seem to be economically feasible, especially for small developers.
Keyboards present their own problems - the French, for example, don't use WASD - the key
We'll see (Score:3)
Honestly, I don't doubt the technical feasibility of an Android console, but they just don't seem to be catching on.
I was one of the "early adopters" that bought an Ouya. I figured I would mostly use it for XBMC anyways and the games would just be a bonus. Thankfully XBMC works OK as the games never really materialized there (the Final Fantasy ports are about the only thing decent available).
I also bought a FireTV - again, mostly as a video device (Netflix, Hulu) for the living room TV. Again - the games haven't really taken off. The Telltale games are available on it (but then again they're available almost everywhere) and I did see SW: Knights of the Old Republic was made available for it, but overall its pretty stale.
Personally, I'm not going to be rushing out for this one until it proves itself to not be another flop. The only thing that MIGHT would interest me would be the ability to stream games from a PC, but all the steaming options I've seen in the past recommend a wireless or "robust" Wifi connection, which I generally interpret to mean it'll suck over WIFI.
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Compared to Ouya most certainly, but Amazon has 15x the market cap of Nvidia. The only thing Nvidia has there is potentially better hardware specs, and a stronger brand identification with the games industry.
Although one thing that may have hobbled the FireTV was making the game controller an optional accessory. It is harder to convince devs to target a platform when only part of your userbase can really take advantage of stuff.
SHIELD (Score:5, Funny)
I was hoping for a new Shield Portable. (Score:3)
And the Shield Portable has been discontinued.
Which is a real shame, because all my friends that see mine want one - I bring it to work, and the general reaction is 'Whoa, what IS that?' followed by 'Does it run emulators?' and 'Where can I get it?' - to which the answer is now 'Ebay, for more than double the MSRP. If you're lucky.'
I really hope they make a Portable 2. The thing really is great for playing all sorts of games on.
JXD makes gaming tablets (Score:2)
You could try one of JXD's gaming tablets, such as the JXD S5110b or the JXD S7300.
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Even a dual-core scores fine in the "does it run emulators" column that damnbunni's post mentioned.
Is this the new SAGA (Score:2)
I hope so. I miss the console wars of the 90's Walking in the snow for an hour each way to rent Nintendo, SAGA and Turbo GFX games.
Woah! (Score:1)
Announcement? (Score:1)
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The new development is the small console, not SHIELD/GRID itself.
Twice the power of a previous gen console? (Score:4, Insightful)
This console is said to have twice the power of a console that was superceeded by it's next gen counterpart 16 months ago. I don't know that this is the strongest selling point for a console unless that was a typo and it was supposed to say Xbox One.
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OnLive Microconsole (Score:2)
Sounds a lot like OnLive's [cnet.com] 'microconsole' [pcmag.com], except with some real horsepower.
So it's a Playstation TV for PC gamer partisans. (Score:2)
That's essentially what it is, except it plays crappy android titles alongside GRID streaming and local PC game streaming...but ONLY from windows machines with Nvidia cards.
At least the PS TV has better native titles.
NVIDIA Announces SHIELD Game Console .. (Score:2)
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How many times are they going to launch this turdkite?
I think you meant turducken.