Should a Service Robot Bring an Alcoholic a Drink? 162
An anonymous reader writes: We've come to a point where care robots are being used to assist people with illnesses and mobility problems. They can bring medicine, a glass of water, food, and other items that a person may have trouble getting to on their own. But what limits should we set on these robots? Should they be able to deliver alcoholic beverages? If so, should they refuse to serve them to certain people, like children or alcoholics? The issue is complicated further because these robots may have been purchased by the patient, by the doctor or hospital (which sent it home with the patient to monitor their health), or by a concerned family member who wants to monitor their relative. The latest poll research by the Open Roboethics Initiative looked at people's attitudes about whether a care robot should prioritize its owner's wishes over those of the patient.
Should a Service Robot Bring an Alcoholic a Drink? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
As long as you don't demand that one provide you with sex...
But then, that's a whole other ethical bucket of fish.
Re:Should a Service Robot Bring an Alcoholic a Dri (Score:5, Funny)
But then, that's a whole other ethical bucket of fish.
And/or sausages.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Should a Service Robot Bring an Alcoholic a Dri (Score:4, Insightful)
As long as you don't demand that one provide you with sex...
But then, that's a whole other ethical bucket of fish.
Nobody thinks there's an ethical problem with me "forcing" my lawnmower to spin its blade and murder the grass, or torturing my refrigerator by chaining it to a wall and making it go "brrrr" all day.
Machines do what their owners want, end of story - there are no ethical issues unless they affect other people.
Re: (Score:2)
"Make me a sandwich" is/was a common meme that guys would tell women on the internet. Often requests and/or demands for sexual acts were also made.
Sure, as long as Naltrexone is within the solution (Score:2)
It is not difficult to extinguish your alcoholism [wikipedia.org] if and when you choose.
Re: (Score:2)
So, tell me ... what are the ethical issues on, say, a dildo?
Do you need consent from the dildo? Does the dildo need to be of the age of consent?
If you wanted to hump your pillow, are there ethical issues?
Seriously, we're talking about machines. They're tools, they don't have legal rights.
Until such point we're talking about things which meet some (as yet undefined) level of sentience ... I think the issue of discussing the 'ethics' of how you use an inanimate object is complete and utter crap.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
We are definitely not there yet.
Re: (Score:2)
It's very very easy to build a robot that can do this, you just tape a dictaphone on a roomba saying all these things. However, you'd be pretty stupid to believe the robot.
This is kind of the point of the Turing test. I believe, however, that AIs will achieve perfect mimicry of consciousness before they achieve actual consciousness. At that point, you're pretty much stuffed, because there's no way of differentiating the two.
Re: (Score:2)
You forgot to use sudo command [xkcd.com]!
Fridge door handle (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
A latch? Try using a bear trap. It's much more effective.
The original question is so silly, it leaves me at a complete loss at the moment. What kind of crap is this? Do we have alcohol vending machines now?
Re:Fridge door handle (Score:5, Informative)
Do we have alcohol vending machines now?
Actually when I studied in Germany in the school cafeteria they had beer in the soda vending machine. Good times.
Re: (Score:2)
Do we have alcohol vending machines now?
Yes.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_... [go.com]
Re:Fridge door handle (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, well, Japan doesn't count. Over there, they might as well have a vending machine corollary for Rule 34 ("there is a vending machine for it -- no exceptions").
Re: (Score:2)
Vending machines in Japan seem to carry pretty much anything. It's surprising what they can come up with.
Like vending machines with live crab.
Re: (Score:2)
Do we have alcohol vending machines now?
Now? We used to have them in the USAF in the barracks. Beer only, but still, there it was.
They got rid of them in 1988-89 IIRc.
Re: (Score:2)
It's not too long ago they got rid of the light beers in the vending machines at LEGO, too many drunk truck drivers after lunch I guess. I am unsure if there was ever regular beer in them.
Re: (Score:2)
I think Japan has had them for years.
How prevalent they are and where ... I have no idea.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Fridge door handle (Score:5, Interesting)
The robot shouldn't be tasked with this judgment any more that the latch on a fridge door should be asked to keep you an your diet.
Yes, slippery slope indeed. If we humans have a hard time discerning if a person is technically "obese" (as rated by the ever-popular BMI scale), how exactly is the robot supposed to tell the difference and not serve the fat human too much food? What happens when the diabetic is served too much sugar? Who's liable? Far too much sue-the-manufacturer bullshit going on to eliminate that risk altogether. We have a long way to go with liability reform before this ever comes to light, which is sad. Yet again technology stifled by greed and politics.
Re: (Score:3)
I guess, instead of trying to solve the generic problem we could solve the specific problem. If the robot is caring for a diabetic, then configure it to not serve sugar. Don't try to make the robot discern whether one or the other action is the preferred one, tell it which is.
Re: (Score:2)
The problem isn't one of ethics. The problem is one of people with no understanding about how robots work, are designed, and are programmed to act pontificating from their armchairs.
Re: (Score:2)
How is that a problem with the robot and not the programmer? That is like saying it's the elevator's fault when some dimwit forgets to program them "down" button.
Re: (Score:2)
If we humans have a hard time discerning if a person is technically "obese" (as rated by the ever-popular BMI scale)...
No, "we humans" don't. Only the kind of idiot doctor who doesn't understand logic.
BMI started out as an index for use by doctors for calculating dosages. And it was pretty useful for that, though perhaps not ideal. But, they expanded its use to all kinds of different, inappropriate things. Things they should have known were inappropriate. Like obesity.
Simple example: a body-builder's BMI is off the charts. If one used it to measure obesity, they'd be so far off as to very seriously endanger someone's
Re: (Score:2)
is the robot supposed to tell the difference and not serve the fat human too much food? its doesn't it does what its told
What happens when the diabetic is served too much sugar? Who's liable? the diabetic for telling the robot to server them sugar. have some personal responsibility. If a diabetic told the robot to bring it an apple and it instead brought and apple shaped sugar ball that was hard to discern from an actual apple then sure we can blame the robot or the manufacturer. but when the robot does what its told the liability should be on the person who told it what to do.
I'm sorry, but you seem to be speaking the language of common sense.
As you know, this language is no longer spoken in US courtrooms, and has all but been outlawed altogether in the legal community.
Re:Fridge door handle (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it quite that simple? I think a machine should obey its owner to the limits of its capability to do so. For instance your laptop should not let me unlock your desktop session should it? Even if you left it with me meeting room while you went to get some water?
It should however let you unlock it. Maybe if you have so configured it, I should be able to logon as guest and use a web browser but not install software or access your personal files.
The care bot should be the same way. It ought to do what its owners tell it. If I buy a care bot to look after my elderly mother I would want to generally program it to obey her instructions, but maybe I would want to put in a deny list and some event triggers, like if the request includes "chocolate cake" kindly decline and remind her she is diabetic, suggest it could whip up some nice meringues dusted with coco powder if she really wants chocolate.
Re: (Score:3)
For instance your laptop should not let me unlock your desktop session should it?
If I told you the password, why not ?
Re: (Score:2)
The ethical conundrum about robots serving alcoholic drinks. This is a very American issue.
1. Having a robot serve drinks seems to be a superficial luxury. Just so they don't have to get off their Asses and get a beer out of the fridge? Or will they be used to save money at a big expensive party where the robots will be more then mobile tables. However will it save money? Probably not, as people would probably like the interaction with the hostesses. Or would it just be a robotic bartender programed to m
Re: (Score:2)
Its not about judgement, it is about programming. We are not asking the robot to make a judgement call we are asking who's judgement the robot should follow.
If I buy my elderly grandfather a caretaker robot and I program the robot to bring him juice but not beer (because I know he shouldn't be drinking due to meds), what should it do when he asks for a beer. I would say that the robot should obey the wishes of the owner, not the patient in this case but it should probably not prevent the patient from gett
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
So robots should not be programmed with the 3 laws?
Hell no!!! Did you even read the book? The whole point of just about every book by Asimov was that you should never, ever, under any circumstances create robots that follow the Three Laws of Robotics.
Re: (Score:2)
As for TFA, what good is a robot that won't fetch a beer? - Might as well get a cat.
Re: (Score:2)
For a very hard core alcoholic NOT drinking can be very dangerous. If said alcoholic quits, or even reduces, alcohol intake seizures can result causing serious damage. The only way to properly handle it is by proper detox.
Yes, but payment up front, please. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's about right, huh ladies? Pregnant and, now, no drinking either!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What would a Nurse Do (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What would a Nurse Do (Score:5, Funny)
The summary did call the person in question the robot's owner.
I think the robot should obey the owner's wishes and get them the drink. But it should sigh audibly when asked to and mumble under its breath while giving it to them. Maybe occasionally snipe at them in a passive-aggressive manner. "Should I cancel all productive activities that you had scheduled on your calendar for today?" "Would you like vodka in a glass or should I set it up as an IV drip into your arm?" "Would you like me to make a bunch of regrettable drunken Facebook posts for you, or would you rather do it yourself?"
Re: (Score:2)
The summary did call the person in question the robot's owner.
I think the robot should obey the owner's wishes and get them the drink. But it should sigh audibly when asked to and mumble under its breath while giving it to them. Maybe occasionally snipe at them in a passive-aggressive manner. "Should I cancel all productive activities that you had scheduled on your calendar for today?" "Would you like vodka in a glass or should I set it up as an IV drip into your arm?" "Would you like me to make a bunch of regrettable drunken Facebook posts for you, or would you rather do it yourself?"
"Here I am, brain the size of a planet..."
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like Kryton from Red Dwarf.
No that's a head that looks like a freak formation of mashed potato.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That's a solved problem.
http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/... [blogspot.com]
Re: (Score:2)
...So most likely, any nursing robot would refuse to serve booze to any patient...
The title of this thread speaks about an alcoholic.
.
An alcoholic is not, by definition, a patient. So a nursing robot could refuse to serve alcohol to any patient, but that still does not answer the question posed by this thread's title.
Re:What Would a Nurse Do (Score:2)
Something to look forward to in my old age - to be treated like a child by a robot proxy. Where's the anonymous right-wing troll when we need him?
Should a barman bring a alcoholic robot a drink? (Score:3)
Fry: "Why would a robot need to drink?"
Bender: "I don't need to drink. I can quit anytime I want!" (burp!)
In 1000 years... (Score:1)
... people will serve robots alcohol. Or the robots will just take it.
I know it's true because I saw it on a Fox [cc.com] TV channel.
Philosophy as a Robot Buddy Movie (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Fox's cancelled Almost Human did the same from the cop's point of view. Very Asimov.
It was decent, but I knew it was doomed from the start due to Fox. Came for Karl Urban but stayed for Michael Ealy. The rest of the supporting cast was effectively flat, though.
Re: (Score:2)
My guess is that mainstream tv scifi works on cycles. We have been in a down cycle for 5 or 6 years, in a few years it will make a return.
Unless Fox cancels it.
Robots (Score:1)
Shouldn't they always serve the operator? I mean, if it didn't, I would exchange it for one that does. Now, if it is a free robot, well, just don't get caught hacking it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Shouldn't they always serve the operator?
yes, probably, maybe, sometimes, usually - there can be complex extenuating circumstances.
Robot & Frank [rottentomatoes.com] is a pretty good SciFi exploration of such issues. I think the writers imagine the likely future trade-offs well.
Say what? (Score:1)
Guys always wanted robots that can fetch a beer from the fridge. The "beer test" is more popular than the Turing Test.
Removing that feature is like removing flying from a flying car.
Oblig. (Score:5, Funny)
Human: "Get me a drink"
Robot: "I'm sorry,sir, you've had too many."
Human: " Sudo get me a drink"
Robot: "Ok"
Re: (Score:2)
Human: "Get me a drink"
Robot: "I'm sorry,sir, you've had too many."
Human: " Sudo get me a drink"
Robot: "Ok"
Robot: And stop calling me Sudo.
What if I wear a glove and server alcohol (Score:1)
Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
In my state bartenders are legally obligated to not serve "visibly drunk" patrons. Though only the nicer bars actually follow this rule, and it is more in place so they can easily boot out unruly drunks or bar entry for people that are already wasted before they show up.
A robot bartender in a commercial environment would either need to be able to follow all the same rules or be operated by someone that does.
The question is... If you are in your own home, does the robot count as a bartender, or is it an appliance? My guess is the latter, the responsibility belongs to the operator.
Though it would be amusing to see the door to the refrigerator refuse to open for a drunk person.
"I'm sorry Dave, I think you have already had enough to drink."
"Hey buddy, can you come in to my house and open my fridge for me?"
Re: (Score:3)
The question is... If you are in your own home, does the robot count as a bartender, or is it an appliance? My guess is the latter, the responsibility belongs to the operator.
Liquor licenses apply just to the sale of alcohol, if I'm at a private party and mix a round of drinks I don't need to follow any regulations except those that generally apply like serving alcohol to minors. And if a minor orders it from the robot, I shouldn't be in any more trouble than if they go to my fridge and grab one. I guess they could require "alcohol lockers" the way they do "gun lockers" around here, but we're not there yet.
Re:Yes (Score:4, Funny)
Agreed, I also believe a professional bartender serving at a private party does not have these rules either.
Either way we are years away from a completely automated robot serving in a public location without human supervision.
Currently we are more likely to end up with this [imgur.com].
Re: (Score:2)
A bartender is under no obligation to refuse an alcoholic a drink. An alcoholic might arrive in the bar, 15 years sober and ask for a drink. How is the barman to know? Either way, it's not illegal for him to serve the alcoholic.
Robots should be programed to obey the law. There is no law against serving alcoholics, there is a law against serving people underage.
Your point seems to be different to the topic of the article, which isn't about serving people already dangerously drunk.
Re: (Score:2)
No, robots should be programmed to do their function, within the constraints of who is authorized to operate it.
If we start having robots which are trying to interpret the law ... we need to immediately destroy them, because we'll have invented robot lawyers, and the world will be ending.
How about we just don't try building robots which are smarmy assholes?
Re: (Score:2)
It has nothing to do with being an alcoholic. The law is about someone who visibly appears drunk. And the bar can be held liable. [phillytriallawyer.com]
Which I think is bullshit, it isn't the bar's fault, especially considering how many people can look perfectly normal but be too drunk to drive. But that is probably just a part of PA desperately clinging to Prohibition.
Re: (Score:2)
The Article, and thus the original topic of discussion, is about serving an alcoholic, not serving drunk people.
Re: (Score:2)
A robot bartender will be programmed with a set of rules that will look very similar to the rules set out for human staff.
It will be the same with a robot carer. They will be programmed to the same parameters as a human carer would receive. So someone with chronic liver issues will be denied alcohol, someone who has mobility issues will be able to order the odd she
Re: (Score:2)
The difference between a human and robot bartender is that when you've had a few too many the robot bartender can not be bargained with, reasoned with, it doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear and it absolutely will not stop until you've been served a diet soda.
Being served diet soda has never been so frightening before.
Robots: conquering the human race... with diet soda.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Consistency (Score:4, Insightful)
Is the decision-maker sapient? (Score:3)
Making decisions like this requires consideration of the consequences, which is the very definition of sapience.
If the robot is non-sapient, but simply has a configured list of users who it may or may not serve alcohol, the decision was made by the person who configured it. This would be an acceptable solution, although cumbersome and inflexible. Probably wouldn't work well enough for public bartending, but a robo-butler could work this way.
If the robot is sapient, it would be capable of making such decisions on its own. In fact, you might see robots refuse to serve alcohol at all, claiming moral reasons. On the other hand, you might see libertarian robots refuse to *not* serve someone alcohol, if they value people's right to self-determination. This would also be acceptable, but we are nowhere near this level of AI.
If the robot is non-sapient, but still expected to identify children and alcoholics on its own, problems will result. Detecting children is possible, with some false-positives (it's hard to tell a 20-year-old from a 21-year-old by appearance) and false-negatives (dwarfs/midgets/little people/hobbits/whatever the current PC term is), but how do you detect an alcoholic by their appearance?
The obvious solution for non-sapient robots requiring more flexibility than simple whitelists/blacklists, since alcohol is already a controlled substance, is to have robots require you to present ID for alcohol, and perhaps add a feature to IDs to show "recovering alcoholic, do not give alcohol" if we decide that's something that's important. Then again, we've not felt the need for that yet, with human bartenders, so maybe this whole debate is over something we've already as a society decided isn't an issue.
Re: (Score:2)
"THIS" is what we're concerned with? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Roboto should always obey owner, not patient (Score:3)
At the same time, their owners should be legally responsible for the orders they give the robot.
So if the owner can effectively order the robot to selectively serve alcohol only to adults that are not already intoxicated, then the robots should serve alcohol.
If the robot can not make that determination, then it should not be allowed to serve alcohol.
Re: (Score:2)
You will only ever be a licensee.
Yeah, because that's how we buy cars and fridges, right?
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think it's all that far fetched. Leasing is an increasing popular way to "buy" cars. I'd expect robots to be produced by companies who already only sell licenses to their products. Furthermore, arguably the most important part of a robot is going to be its programming, and software is already only ever sold under license. Ok, so you own the mechanical parts of the robot. Great, now try and load your own software on the bloody thing. If it's a huge pain in the ass to replace the OS on your cell
good idea (Score:2)
First Law trumps Second, insurance trumps law (Score:2)
Detecting drunk people is the tough part.
Use mass spec for instant breathalyzer?
Analyze behavior?
In the long run it's like self-driving cars: eventually it'll be so much better than human-operated that insurance companies will lobby to mandate it.
Silly (Score:2)
If development has taught me anything, it is that you can't account for every use case, and unless you're releasing something particularly tiny, you can't have a contingency for every foreseeable misuse.
Easiest solution: The robot provides one drink for one coupon or ticket. It is up to the owner of the robot to control how those tickets are distributed and managed.
Machine for the automated part, while a human handles the human problems.
As long as... (Score:2)
Why is this here? (Score:2)
If the purpose is to pose the question
Then the answer is yes, the reason the person could just get the shit themselves so what difference does it make if a robot gets it for them?
Has already been discussed in literature (Score:2)
c.f. Isaac Asimov and his laws of robotics, for example "I, Robot" (not the unrelated movie of the same title) Whatever I read so far by Asimov (not THAT much I admit) centered around such robo-ethical questions and how to circumvent them
So, according to the robot laws:
No, it SHOULD not as it would endanger a human.
Thinking this through to the end would mean that a robot should never serve any drug (down to coffee) to a human.
But yes, it would serve alcohol to an alcoholic as he would be kept from checking
Re: (Score:2)
None of it is about robot ethics, it's a metaphor about the folly of thinking that a list of rules, such as the ten commandments, could ever encapsulate all the vagaries of human morality.
Re: (Score:2)
Take 5min to read this short essay by Asimov [tufts.edu], you won't be dissapointed. Asimov was more than just the guy who wrote about fictional robot laws, for example, he was also well known skeptic. Not the modern anti-science kind, a real skeptic, spelt the old fashioned way!
None of it is about robot ethics, it's a metaphor about the folly of thinking that a list of rules, such as the ten commandments, could ever encapsulate all the vagaries of human morality.
Well, Kant with his categoric imperative managed that with even a single rule. (But kind of cheated as it was kind of recursive)
Besides, thanks for the hint. I know I should have read more Asimov (as I always liked what I read) but somehoe never could quite adjust to the style somehow.
Naturally, the theories we now have might be considered wrong in the simplistic sense of my English Lit correspondent, but in a much truer and subtler sense, they need only be considered incomplete.
But the importantthing is to keep the basic humility and remember that no matter if your current knowledge is incomplete or plain wrong, one day it will be amended or rectified. And by his own logic, the diffrence between remembering that and assuming your current theory is "right" in the simplistic way, is much much larger than between "wrong" or "incomplete"
personal responsibility? =/ (Score:2)
What if we extend this line of thinking to driver-less cars? If certain behavioral patterns are detected (such as driving to the liquor store 3x) should the car have a moral imperative to NOT take the person to buy booze?
(On aside, I'd feel better with the robot fetching a drink for an alcoholic -- than the alcohol driving themselves (this is before driverless cars mind you) to the store to buy more.)
This isn't ethics (Score:2)
This is neurotic navel gazing. Take responsibility for your own actions, which includes getting drunk in the first place because you know before the first drink that this will lead to suspension of judgement. If you choose to use a tool like a robot to get you a drink, that's your decision, even if it kills you. What next - a controlling nanny state that raises the drinking age to 21 or it makes it illegal to jaywalk?
Re: (Score:2)
We have already answered the question. (Score:3)
One obvious problem here (Score:2)
For me the real problem is the liability generated by acting unsolicited on a patient's behalf. If a robot starts discerning what is good for a patient and acting on that basis, then the provider, the manufacturer, and perhaps the robot itself will become liable for the choices of the robot that turned out to be bad. If the liabi
Alcohol withdrawal can be fatal. (Score:2)
Alcohol withdrawal can be fatal for alcoholics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A... [wikipedia.org]
If you can make a robot able to understand the moral implications of it's actions then you won't need to program it with rules like this. If you can't then regard the robot as a tool and regulate its use appropriately. Children are not allowed drivers licenses. Why would a responsible person allow a child to use a robot that could be fatal to the child?
Re: (Score:2)
First law of Robotics (Score:2)
"A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm."
So no.
Re: (Score:2)
That is implicit in the First Law.
Re: (Score:2)
The -1th Law - all "laws" have exceptions except this one.
Re: (Score:2)
strange, I was thinking about locating the prehensile booze dispensing hose with bulbous end at a convenient level for the bedridden....
Most important limits (Score:2)
Keep the Jehovahs and Mormons from getting in the house. Bonus if it can hold off people pushing meritless products. But I repeat myself.
As for serving drinks or drugs, the damn things should do what they're told. I don't need robots to take agency from me. Lard knows the frigging government is spending more than enough effort on that already. For me personally, all I have to say is "I already have (had) a mother, and her last bit of authority over me expired in 1977."
First time a (non-conscious) robot ref