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Power Earth Science Technology

Shale: Good For Gas, Oil...and Nuclear Waste Disposal? 138

Lasrick writes: Chris Neuzil is a senior scientist with the National Research Program of the U.S. Geological Survey. He thinks the qualities of shale make it the perfect rock in which to safely and permanently house high-level nuclear waste. Given the recent discovery that water is much more of an issue than originally thought for the tough rock at Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository in Utah, the unique qualities of shale, along with its ubiquitous presence in the U.S., could make shale rock a better choice for the 70,000 metric tons of commercial spent fuel currently sitting above ground at nuclear power facilities throughout the country. France, Switzerland, and Belgium are all considering repositories in shale, but it hasn't been studied much in the U.S. "Shale is the only rock type likely to house high-level nuclear waste in other countries that has never been seriously considered by the U.S. high-level waste program. The uncertain future of Yucca Mountain places plans for spent nuclear fuel in the United States at a crossroads. It is an opportunity to include shale in a truly comprehensive examination of disposal options."
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Shale: Good For Gas, Oil...and Nuclear Waste Disposal?

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  • by Anonymous Coward

    I know Benzene is just a good idea to mix up with groundwater, so high level radioactive waste must be an order of magnitude smarter.

    Captcha : osmosis

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Every time they think they found the 'perfect' solution to storing nuclear waste. And every time it turns out it's not sufficient after all.

    • You mean not sufficient for politicians?
      • You mean not sufficient for politicians?

        The uncertain future of Yucca Mountain places plans for spent nuclear fuel in the United States at a crossroads.

        Yucca Mt. was a political construct from start to finish, and was NEVER a serious consideration by those in power. What left the US at a crossroads was about 20 years ago when every temporary nuclear storage facility in the US was at capacity, and nothing was done about other than this Yucca Mt. fiction.

        I think the solution to the energy crisis is never going to be solved with more nuke plants (though that may help reduce the waste problem... but with more deadly longer, more concentrated waste), but with

        • by Shadow of Eternity ( 795165 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @06:09PM (#48481795)

          3 mile island scale... you mean a media induced panic over a non-event that hasn't harmed anyone, compared to the absolutely devastating cost of coal alone to the environment and human life?

          • 3 mile island scale... you mean a media induced panic over a non-event that hasn't harmed anyone,

            I lived in the area during the TMI meltdown. It was mostly hype in regards to the general public. Though some radiation was vented into the atmosphere. Of course Hollywood had released "The China Syndrome" around that time too, so it really struck a nerve.

            However, it is not true that no one was harmed. I dated a girl who's father worked at TMI during that time. He was dying from cancer, as were some of his ex-coworkers. The plant was paying for his treatment and a sizable settlement to his family.

            compared to the absolutely devastating cost of coal alone to the environment and human life?

            Agreed.

          • by dbIII ( 701233 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @10:38PM (#48482925)
            TMI was the perfect accident, dramatic but with no deaths - a wakeup call from the complacency where the plant wasn't even monitored as well as a fertilizer plant had to be.
            It showed the dramatic contrast in attitude between the early stages of design where the containment vessels were made to be the strongest in the USA due to the risk of a plane crashing into it on approach to the nearby airport, and the implementation of the control and monitoring systems years later that sucked by any measure. It resulted in the early retirement of some other reactors that were frankly death traps and the improvement of all the others.
            The engineers of the time didn't write it off as a non-event like you are counterproductively doing. Such bleating as above harms the cause of nuclear power instead of helping it. Instead of ignoring it the engineers put in the work and extra care that resulted in nothing like the Chenobyl incident happening in the USA, despite some of the older plants initially being inherently more dangerous.
        • If the nuclear industry was so large and so powerful, they wouldn't have so much trouble securing permits and finding locations for waste disposal.
          • If the nuclear industry was so large and so powerful, they wouldn't have so much trouble securing permits and finding locations for waste disposal.

            They have no problem with continuning to do what they've been doing since they started.... just pile it up on location. There is no commercial nuclear power plant in the US that isn't also a rather large unregulated depository of nuclear waste.

        • First, deadlier nuclear waste has a shorter lifespan by definition due to a shorter half-life. Second, in the US renewable energy has received slightly more government subsidies than nuclear ($74B vs $73B).
        • > We have myriad energy solutions now... and in fact most are at parity with the cost of nuclear power (if you're honest about it, and include government R&D and subsidies in the cost).

          You sure you want to include the billions in taxpayer subsidies it takes to get 1% of our energy from solar? I don't think Comedy Central instructed you to point out that solar-electric is 4.8X times as expensive during the daytime, and far more costly at night.

          • by uncqual ( 836337 )

            and far more costly at night

            A great opportunity for an innovator to develop lunar panels to supplement solar panels! That reduces the problem to moonless nights.

          • > We have myriad energy solutions now... and in fact most are at parity with the cost of nuclear power (if you're honest about it, and include government R&D and subsidies in the cost).

            You sure you want to include the billions in taxpayer subsidies it takes to get 1% of our energy from solar? I don't think Comedy Central instructed you to point out that solar-electric is 4.8X times as expensive during the daytime, and far more costly at night.

            Billions? BILLIONS? I do not think you know what that word means. The US has likely invested close to half a trillion in nuclear energy development. Whatever change accidently slipped out of Uncle Sam's pockets and into solar R&D is, in comparison, quite nothing at all. Also, had the US invested just 5% of what they spent on nuclear energy development since the 1950s on solar, we wouldn't even be arguing. Solar would be crazy cheap! And nuclear, still where its at... competitive with coal, (not beating

            • > Also, had the US invested just 5% of what they spent on nuclear energy development since the 1950s on solar, we wouldn't even be arguing. Solar would be crazy cheap!

              No, reality does not work that way. You don't throw money at a problem and expect all scientific and technological issues to be magically solved. And besides, solar has gotten plenty of development effort, especially if you consider the insane amounts of money invested into semiconductor tech by the electronics industry. If solar is any goo

            • by Kvathe ( 3869749 )
              Please stop making up numbers and posting them all over this story. You're spreading a ridiculous amount of FUD without even attempting to back up your claims. As I've posted elsewhere, the government has spent $74B on non-hydro renewables and $73B on nuclear, including R&D [wikipedia.org].
              • > please stop making up numbers and posting them all over this story

                Since I said "billions" and you replied with a link to where someone posted $73 billion, I can only guess that English isn't your native language and you didn't actually mean to say what you said. I suppose the alternative is that you're so completely closed to the facts that in order to maintain your faith in Comedy Central as your policy adviser you've convinced yourself that $73 billion isn't "billions". That would be sad.

                FYI, citin

                • by Kvathe ( 3869749 )
                  Look closer, I was responding to catmistake, not your post. I would use EIA but they only have information on subsidies and not the government money spent on research. Wikipedia is usually a good enough source for an argument on Slashdot, but if you have higher standards then you can view the original source here [misi-net.com].
          • "(if you're honest about it, and include government R&D and subsidies in the cost)."

            If we're going to be honest about it, what energy technology isn't supported by government R&D and subsidies?

        • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

          If they nuclear power industry were anywhere near a powerful as you claim, they would have kicked the crap out of the coal industry as well as banning the infernal combustion engine. So Nuclear remains a viable backup power source to cover the next 50 to 100 years until a more advance power source is available and a more advanced society can be trusted with it. The big shift in nuclear needs to be away from high output short term energy supply to low output long term energy supply, far simpler pulsed outp

          • The demands for energy...

            Its a rather thin thread that nuclear is hanging on, if it is merely the demands for energy that have you sold on it. If the demand is there, the demand will pay for energy no matter what its cost. We don't need to bow down to the "demands for energy" like its an enemy we need to placate somehow. Fuck energy demands, seriously. Energy is not food... is not air... is not anything that the human race needs. I know this because there was no stored energy of any capacity less than 100 years ago, and for hundred

            • by Kvathe ( 3869749 )

              for hundreds of thousands of years this "demands for energy" was an unanswered cry.

              You're right, and it was called the dark ages.

              • by rtb61 ( 674572 )

                Dark ages most apt. The demands for energy now are what is needed to clean up our environment and it will take a lot of energy to do that. The need to more fairly distribute energy access across the globe along with the spread of global information as the benefits that are provided by easy access to energy become obvious to those that are currently energy starved. The balance is pretty clear, the greater the access to energy, the less natural resources that are required to supply human needs, the more land

      • You mean not sufficient for politicians?

        For decades, while wearing my "I am a geologist" tee shirt, I have been proposing a particular shale (OK, claystone : shale without marked fissility) formation as the ideal location for a high-level nuclear waste store.

        The arguments that the low mobility of water within shale ("claystone", "mudrock" ; all mean essentially the same thing) formations makes them good for isolating and immobilising all sorts of nasty materials are old, old, old arguments. And they are pe

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Kind of begs the question why this crap was started without an exit-strategy...

  • As if fracking wasn't bad enough. I remember reading some time ago a paper that was studying this exact subject and the probability of the waste migrating in the aquifers. Sadly, I cannot find the link anymore. Still, veeery smart. Hmph
  • future... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SETY ( 46845 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @04:43PM (#48481259)

    Why would we hide some of the most energy dense stuff known to man? Instead put it in long term storage, plan for say 200 years.
    Sometime down the road future generations will reprocess it and use it. Unless energy gets super cheap, then in that case...Energy is super cheap and they will have no issue cleaning up the pasts mistakes.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Why not? It's been our philosophy for centuries not to worry about the future and just expect that future generations will have more wits and basic decency than us.

      • Re:future... (Score:5, Informative)

        by khallow ( 566160 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @10:37PM (#48482921)

        Why not? It's been our philosophy for centuries not to worry about the future and just expect that future generations will have more wits and basic decency than us.

        That's an odd bit of sarcasm given that the grandparent post is actually worrying about the future in a constructive way. Fuel rod recycling is a rather odd thing to overlook.

      • Why not? It's been our philosophy for centuries not to worry about the future and just expect that future generations will have more wits and basic decency than us.

        All while complaining that the youths are worse in all ways than the previous generation.

      • by Creepy ( 93888 )

        In this case, what we call waste is actually a viable fuel. We (and I'm talking about most countries, not just the US) just have an aversion to breeder reactors that can make it so and on-site reprocessing that makes the process more fuel efficient (up to about 99.5%). Whether a need for such reactors appears before fusion is a viable alternative is the question, though if we keep throwing money at tokamak designs like ITER instead of much cheaper designs like polywell it may be.

  • That "nuclear waste" is rather a fuel for FBRs. Just so far FBRs are not financially viable but in about 50 years when natural uranium gets depleted FBRs will recycle that "nuclear waste" into a new fuel. So there i no need for too much long time storage.
    • by Creepy ( 93888 )

      Wrong - fast breeders in the United States were killed over basically proliferation concerns and safety issues. Financial was never a reason - you go from .5-5% fuel efficiency to 70% (without reprocessing) or 99.5% (with reprocessing) - that's pretty much like going from a Abrams tank to a Prius - you basically go from a subsidized industry (because it can't compete with coal in the US due to the overhead) to an industry that can sustain itself and could beat coal handily. Sadly, the "facts" given to kill

    • If you dig really deep, you will find out that all of nuclear technology is too expensive in the NATO land. Its population was brainwashed with lies about Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and Fukushima and believe nuclear is a thing of the devil. They irrationally demand nuclear is shutdown, but the pro nuclear lobby pushes back, in the squeeze the NRC (and its sister organizations) create an insane level of absurd extreme anti nuclear regulation that led nuclear power to be too expensive.
      All you need to do is

  • The link "water is much more of an issue" is broken (the "www." portion should be dropped). This link works: water is much more of an issue [thebulletin.org].

  • by mtrachtenberg ( 67780 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @04:51PM (#48481315) Homepage

    As I get older I am less impressed by the infinitesimal bit of knowledge that science has revealed and more impressed by the vast gulf of ignorance it has revealed. I hope however it is that our elites choose to bury this stuff, they invest at least a little attention to being able to dig it all up again when it turns out they were wrong about whatever.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Yucca Mountain is in Nevada and that is the reason there is no centralized repository. Henry Reid's (Senator from Nevada) political clout was enough to kill the massive, half completed project. Even with potential problems of water there, having a secure location to store the fission by-products is much better than having vulnerable piles scattered around the country.

    Almost none of the existing waste is stored in dry casks but rather water filled cooling pools . This type of storage requires a constant w

  • by godel_56 ( 1287256 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @05:06PM (#48481413)

    Most of the "waste" from pressurized water reactors still has about 97% of its extractable energy left in it. It could fairly easily be reprocessed and reused in a PWR again, or used almost as-is in the future generation IV design fast neutron reactors.

    The reason most used fuel is not reprocessed now, apart from the NIMBY complaints about the processing plants, is that "virgin" fuel is so cheap and abundant that the small extra cost is not deemed to be worth it.

    • ...and that the recycling process is how plutonium is extracted. That's why Jimmy Carter stopped the recycling of fuel rods in the US and had everything shipped to Yucca mountain instead.
      • by Anonymous Coward

        In his infinite wisdom... Nuclear power could have done more for the environment than Wind, Solar, or Wave renewable by eliminating coal power plants as an economically superior energy source. Instead: he created an ecological disaster by accumulating spent fuel rods in cooling tanks as a 70-100 "deferred maintenance" hidden cost for future generations to clean up.

        Some day: the technology required and the information to make Nuclear weapons will be available to the general public. We should do more to prepa

      • by phayes ( 202222 )

        The elephant in the room is Nuclear Proliferation.

        Most of the danger in country X having civilian nuclear reactors is that the byproducts like Plutonium are only available if the fuel is reprocessed.

        By using specifically designed "military" reactors to breed PU & foregoing reprocessing of the output of it's civilian reactors, the US has been able to take a stance against the reprocessing of civilian reactors. Yes, there are exceptions to that stance (La Hague here in France for example), but the pretenc

    • by dbIII ( 701233 )
      That's just fuel rods, and I doubt it's that high for anything other than very old designs that don't get much use out of their fuel - and probably not even then. There's a lot of other waste. I think the web page for the Harford reprocessing plant is a good starting point for fanboys that like to squeal in joy about their pet topic without knowing much about it.
      You are correct about mining and processing being a lot easier than reprocessing at this point, but it's for ecomonic and not "NIMBY" reasons. S
  • Nevada, not Utah (Score:5, Informative)

    by swillden ( 191260 ) <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Friday November 28, 2014 @05:13PM (#48481459) Journal

    Not that it makes much difference, but the Yucca Mountain site is in Nevada, not Utah.

    • by dbIII ( 701233 )
      With a truly major storage accident parts of it could be in Utah.




      Yes I know, it would have to be a "somebody started the timer on this enormous hydrogen bomb we got from Russia" sort of storage accident but jokes don't have to be realistic do they?
    • This was my initial reaction in reading this - Who, with any interest or knowledge at all in the topic, doesn't know the state Yucca Mountain resides in?!
    • by hawk ( 1151 )

      So?

      The entire Yucca Mountain plan was based on ignoring science. Why not ignore Cartography, too? :)

      hawk

      • The anti Yucca plan was based on ignoring science.
        But we should instead reprocess spent nuclear fuel.
        Leave spent nuclear fuel to cool for a few decades (at the nuclear station), the reprocess the fuel. Out of reprocessing we would get:
        Uranium = put it through enrichment again (make more depleted uranium which is harmless and some low enriched uranium for new fuel)
        Plutonium = mix with depleted uranium and make mox nuclear fuel
        other transuranics = that would go for

        • by hawk ( 1151 )

          >The anti Yucca plan was based on ignoring science.

          ???

          Did you really write that?

          The anti-Yucca in Nevada is *not* anti-nuclear; it's not even NIMBY.

          The law to choose a dump specified that every site on the list was to be evaluated, and that the dump *shall* be built at the safest site on the list.

          Not built if a site is safe, but at the *safest* of the sites to be considered.

          Guess how many sites were on the list. (if you guess 2 or more, you have no idea what you're talking about.

          So after being told that

  • oh great (Score:3, Funny)

    by slashmydots ( 2189826 ) on Friday November 28, 2014 @05:36PM (#48481591)
    Now the people in towns nearby can have flaming AND glowing water.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • by phayes ( 202222 )

      You know the video everyone has seen where a guy open a faucet, lights up the output & blames it on fracking? My father lives near the town where it was done. The town is called Wellsville from back when it was America's first Oil boom region in the late 1800s and it's surrounded by tens of thousands of primitive oil wells that they just filled in once they stopped producing enough oil to be profitable around 100 years ago. It's funny that the people blaming fracking for all the methane in the groundwat

  • If it's highly radioactive, doesn't that mean it has unspent energy in it? I think anything dangerous for than a certain number of years simply needs to be sent through again. I've heard people say anything that stays dangerous for more than a few hundred years still has unspent energy.

    • by Creepy ( 93888 )

      Highly radioactive usually has more to do with faster decay rate. As for how dangerous, it depends on the emitter and how it is absorbed. As for how much energy, it depends on substance, if it is fissile (at least for energy producing), and its neutron efficiency. Thorium, uranium, and plutonium generate more neutrons than they consume and thus can be used for a sustainable nuclear reaction. If it isn't one of those three, it probably isn't desirable - Protactinium, for example, has a huge cross section and

      • All true, but Polonium isn't produced by nuclear fission. It is a decay product of fissile/fertile material. It is produced from potential nuclear fuel we don't use.
        Nuclear reactors deal with alpha emitters with half lifes in the multi thousand to million year half life. In general those materials are far more deadly due to their chemical toxicity rather than its radioactivity. The lowest half life alpha involved in nuclear reactors is in the 50 thousand + year half life (U-233 and some plutonium isotopes).

    • For a nuclear reactor, there are essentially three types of nuclear materials:
      1 - Fissile material (hit it with a neutron and it has a high probability - from 60% to 99.9% of fission)
      2 - Fertile material (hit it with a neutron and it turns into Fissile material)
      3 - Fission products - new atoms resulting from fission

      Fission products typically are highly radioactive materials, but they have already undergone fission. Many of them are fission poisons (they are neutron magnets to make it

  • They just don't want to have to pay pennies per use for Synroc.
  • Instead of trying to find new ways to store nuclear waste for thousands of years we should be looking for ways to burn this stuff for energy, medical isotopes, and other useful things. One technology that comes to mind is the Waste Annihilating Molten Salt Reactor. The people from MIT that are working on this claim WAMSR can destroy spent fuel from conventional uranium fueled reactors while also producing electricity and/or industrial heat.

    There are two things that destroy radioactive waste, time and neut

  • I know that the fuel has a lot of usable energy left that could be used in politically toxic reactors. I'm curious how difficult it is to transport that stuff? I know we use cooling ponds ad current reactors, is that the stuff that's the most lucrative in breeder reactors? How do you transport that kind of material? Or is the good breeder fuel just the stuff that has been moved the casks/etc that doesn't get so hot and volatile.

  • Spent Nuclear Fuel is still FUEL !
    At least 98% of SNF is fissile / fertile nuclear material.
    Out of 35 tons of Enriched Uranium used to make fuel, just 1 ton is fissioned, 34 tons remains as Uranium, Plutonium, Neptunium, Americium and Curium. All of that stuff can be fissioned using a fast reactor. Using more complex reprocessing Uranium and Plutonium can be extracted and recycled into fuel any reactor could use.
    The USA isn't doing nuclear fuel reprocessing due to economical reasons, the technology is avail

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