Utilities Fight Back Against Solar Energy 579
JoeyRox writes "The exponential growth of rooftop solar adoption has utilities concerned about their financial future. Efficiency gains and cost reductions has brought the price of solar energy to within parity of traditional power generation in states like California and Hawaii. HECO, an electric utility in Hawaii, has started notifying new solar adopters that they will not be allowed to connect to the utility's power grid, citing safety concerns of electric circuits becoming oversaturated from the rapid adoption of solar power on the island. Residents claim it's not about safety but about the utility fighting to protect its profits." We mentioned earlier the connection fee recently approved in Arizona. Do you have a solar system? If not (or if so, for that matter), does this make you think twice about it?
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Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:2, Informative)
We do exactly that in australia.
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But here the grids are separate from the generators, so home solar only really has to interface to the grid. Not sure its the same in Hawaii.
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
in CA all the utility power is "decoupled", which means that electricity is sold at cost while the utility makes all of its money of off its installed infrastructure. This way they don't give a hoot if you get your electrons from a power plant or a solar panel. in fact, every person who installs a solar panel needs a utility upgrade to connect it to the grid, and the utility makes $$ off of that in perpetuity.
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Informative)
No they are really not. Maybe from a business standpoint but not from a reality standpoint. Solar goes from zero to max out put from dawn to solar noon back to zero at sunset. Actually it is zero for a good while after dawn and before sunset but you get what I mean. Once you get a lot of that on a grid it can become a nightmare to keep stable. Batteries are not an option yet so storage is just not practical. You need a huge amount of peaking plants to keep the grid stable. You do not want large voltage and or frequencies swings.
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
Solar goes from zero to max out put from dawn to solar noon back to zero at sunset. ... You need a huge amount of peaking plants to keep the grid stable. You do not want large voltage and or frequencies swings.
Except that renewable energy largely feeds during the peaks, REDUCING the need for peaking generation. Solar generates more during sunny times, closely tracking air conditioning requirements. Wind peaks in afternoon/evening, along with classical peak load, due to "lake effect" wind at good sites (i.e. Altamont pass, with the Pacific for the "lake" and California's central valley for the "land") and also tracks heating requirements, due both to lower temperatures during stormy times and greater thermal transfer through walls during windy times. A mix of solar and wind is normally a close match to the grid's peak cycle.
Meanwhile, generation-affecting weather phenomena, like storm shadows and weather-related winds and gusting, make output vary quickly at any given site, but with both solar and wind generation spread out over many square miles and grid-connected these variations are smoothed out. They're also predictable days in advance.
So solar and wind DECREASE the need for peaking generation.
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"So solar and wind DECREASE the need for peaking generation."
But not the need for peaking generating plants. You will still need enough peaking plants to cover the Solar and wind output! Those plants will have to be built, staffed, and maintained even when sitting static. Those fixed costs will drive up the cost of those plants for KWH produced because they will stay fixed. Also those good wind sites with lake effect are not all that common and are just not found in most of the midwest where you find the hi
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No sorry the GP is actually right. The problem is not the size of the peak. If the peak is predictable that is easily compensated for. The problem is the variance. Imagine you have one giant multi-gigawatt turbine and you're quite stably feeding an entire city. These take a lot of effort to change and suddenly shedding load can be very damaging to the machine. Pre solar the cycle was predicable during the day with only a 20% ish variance* between differing predicated days (i.e. weekends are the same workday
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I spare me the long answer, only copy one part, as I answered to a newer post of you, which should clarify some stuff.
The relative impedance of the grids also make a difference meaning that base load generation located closest to the source of the sudden power change may be greatly affected even if you have a lot of peaking capacity elsewhere in the grid. Depends how your grid is set up, germany e.g. is rather small. Longest power line is perhaps 1400km, something around 1000 miles. And everything here is
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a 20% power source that fluctuates over time.... Maybe you did not understand what keeping the grid stable means. 112v +-10% is not considered stable. All it takes for that power output of solar cells to drop like a rock is a good rainstorm to come though like a front. Guess what? In Hawaii that happens a lot so you could see a 20% drop in total out put in 10 minutes.
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:4, Insightful)
It does if you have.
1. a lot of water
2. Mountains.
The problem is that the best areas for solar power do not tend to be near large amounts of water and or mountains. Places like Texas, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida for example.
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Fluorine-doped stanene, and it's only been shown to work in some speculative modeling. Never in a laboratory demonstration.
There's no theoretical reason it can't be one, but the theory behind superconductors isn't fully understood so progress advances only slowly through trial and error.
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>>Thats the other thing, we don't need all this extra power in the middle of the day, we need it at 6 oclock at night when everyone turns on the big screens and ovens.
That's the winter power curve. During summer, consumption peaks around noon to the early afternoon, as people run their ACs full blast. This peak is also much higher (~33% or so) than the winter peak draw.
Summer at noon to early afternoon also happens to be the time when solar is at peak production, so it's very useful at helping to deal
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Interesting)
Expensive and, more importantly, dangerous - storing large amounts of power would risk a rather large flood. It would make more sense to excavate an underground cavern and pump water out of it to store power. This is (likely) cheaper, safer and allows far more height difference, thus more power per same amount of water and storage space. And of course you get a huge cistern out of the deal, too.
Let's assume we excavate our cistern so we get a water head of 100m for our turbine. Also, let's assume the turbine+generator is 80% efficient. A single cubic meter of water weights one metric ton, so we'll get 1000kg*100m*9.8m/s^2 * 0.8 = 784 kJ = 217.8 kWh out of it.
According to Reuters [reuters.com], New York State's electricity usage peaked last summer at 33,955MW, so if we'd want to provide every single watt for, say, two weeks from our reservoir when fully loaded (completely empty of water) at maximum power draw, we'd ned to excavate 24h/d*14d*33955MW/217.8kWh/m^3= 53 million cubic meters of rock. This works out to a square 10 meters high and 2.3 kilometers on each direction (plus enough to compensate for support pillars). Expensive, yes, but also ridiculously oversized and perfectly doable with today's technology. Also, doubling the depth doubles the power contained in every cubic foot of water, leading to smaller cistern required.
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Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Informative)
Because they are usually required to pay customers a lot more for feed-in power than they can generate it for, with no allowance for their internal cost overheads, etc.
Basically they become a free power storage and backup facility only paid for any extra usage) for the customers, which is great for adoption, but means that non solar customers are adding further subsidy to the solar customers (over and above the common subside via taxation/government grants).
Not that I am against private solar - I have it myself, but using the grid as backup/storage is somewhat unfair in the big picture.
Some pricing plans are a bit more in line with reality, but regulators push hard to make it 'simple for the consumer' which really tends to end up meaning
'subsidize the solar users'.
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Informative)
Because they are usually required to pay customers a lot more for feed-in power than they can generate it for, with no allowance for their internal cost overheads, etc.
Of course, and this in turn is offset by higher electricity prices. Surprise, and welcome to Ontario, Canada. Where electricity prices will jump 33% in the next 3 years thanks to "green energy." [financialpost.com] This will make it one of the most expensive places in North America to buy electricity. And what's funny? These "green energy retrofits and FiT programs" account for under 14% of generation.
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
More accurately, it's going up because of corrupt government and bad management.
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As opposed to the private sector, which is inefficient, horrible in management, corrupt, and greedy.
People who think that the private sector is necessarily more efficient or less corrupt than the public sector, must never have worked in the private sector.
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Not always. Government might be bureaucratic and slow (and possibly corrupt) but at least they don't have a profit motive driving them to cut (potentially deadly) corners. Our water company is private, and they are horrible horrible horrible. To the point where our fairly conservative town is considering buying them out. Our water quality is terrible, our rates are ridiculous, and the management is so bad that at any time we have about 4 hours' worth of water if (non-redundant) pumps should fail. They'
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This isn't entirely a bad thing. Higher energy costs spur investment in alternative energy sources and effi
No, entirely bad (Score:3)
This isn't entirely a bad thing. Higher energy costs spur investment in alternative energy sources and efficiency gains.
Which wouldn't be needed if you simply used nuclear power. Solar would improve anyway for other reasons. But in the meantime you wouldn't be wasting a lot of money better spent on forcing alternative energy on people before it's ready (or in the case of wind power, propping up a zombie until it dies once more as it does every few decades).
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Nuclear power requires huge government subsidies for liability insurance, security (they are wonderful terrorist targets), and environmental devastation (uranium mining is incredibly dirty, and we still have no workable solution for waste disposal).
Nuclear power as we know it -- uranium and plutonium fission -- is such a boondoggle that the only reasons people continue to advocate for it are flat-out corruption, a near-religious attachment to the r
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Renewables are just getting the same subsidies fossil fuels continue to enjoy.
Really? So, if I put a natural gas generator on my property the government will pay for 60% of the material and installation cost? As well as require the utility to buy electricity from me at a price above what it costs them to produce it themselves? I don't think so.
Solar must be the most subsidized electricity source out there today. I won't claim to be an expert but I've talked to people around here that are in the wind and solar business. The level of subsidies on wind and solar is mind blowing. T
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Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Interesting)
Mod parent up – and Hawaii has some specific issues.
Hawaii has basically hit the saturation point of renewable energy until a decent storage system is developed. Renewables output tends to be erratic. If the wind is up or the sun is out the utilities has to bring down their gas generators, wind dies down or the sun sets and they have to bring on the generators. In other parts of the world they could export the electricity but that’s not an option here. Basically they have hit the saturation point. If you added more renewables the utilities would leave the power plants because they could not bring them up fast enough.
Fun fact – Germany this summer charged customers who exported renewable energy onto the grid. They mainly have coal plants which take hours to take off / bring online. A few days of good wind and low demand meant there was nowhere for the electric to go. I think Germany is trying to fix that with more transmission line but it gives you an idea of the problem.
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:4, Interesting)
They mainly have coal plants which take hours to take off / bring online. A few days of good wind and low demand meant there was nowhere for the electric to go.
They should consider doing something like the Bath County Pumped Storage Station [wikipedia.org] in Virginia where:
Water is released from the upper reservoir during periods of high demand and is used to generate electricity. What makes this different from other hydroelectric dams is that during times of low demand, power is taken from coal, nuclear, and other power plants and is used to pump water from the lower to the upper reservoir. Although this plant uses more power than it generates, it allows these other plants to operate at close to peak efficiency for an overall cost savings.
I imagine this would work in Hawaii too...
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That requires you to pump water uphill, and HI has very little fresh water.
No, you want something more like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Float#Central_Hydraulic_Tower [wikipedia.org]
IIRC there were some demonstration plants that were built in the Gulf of Mexico but I have not heard if the succeeded or failed. Since I have heard nothing I am going to guess failed. The question is not so much “can it be done” but “can it be done economically?” And a quick search of wiki suggests no. Most of
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That requires you to pump water uphill, and HI has very little fresh water.
Does it have to be fresh water, 'cause I think HI has a bunch of other water [wikipedia.org] handy.
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Interesting)
That's not an entirely fair assessment. Solar feed-in is during peak power rates and the owner is at best reimbursed at the fixed residential rate which is frequently 1/4 to 1/8 of the peak rate. I agree that solar users are going to need to contribute to the grid but the power companies are being very short sided here.
Without the feed-in of peak solar output and the credits that generates there is no reason not to install the batteries needed to go fully off grid where the homeowner won't be contributing anything to the grid. There is a very fine line here where battery storage becomes viable and we are approaching it rapidly. Solar continues to fall in cost, it's already approaching price parity with nuclear power without subsidies. If it continues to fall to $0.50 a watt it's going to reach cost the amortized cost of coal generation. It's beginning to hit critical mass, the more demand the steeper costs will drop which lowers costs and increases demand more. After years of subsidies priming the pump solar is finally gaining momentum and it scares these power companies to death because they are invested almost entirely in hydrocarbons. They are fighting solar because of these investments.
The scary thing here is that if they don't turn things around and realize the potential of solar and embrace it they are going to get displaced by battery storage and then the power company is out of business. There is a very real possibility that by 2030 solar is going to be THE source of power.
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That's not an entirely fair assessment. Solar feed-in is during peak power rates and the owner is at best reimbursed at the fixed residential rate which is frequently 1/4 to 1/8 of the peak rate.
They should really be paid at the going wholesale rate, though, since they're selling electricity into the grid, just like any other power plant is. I don't get why the feed-in tariffs are based on retail rates, rather than wholesale rates.
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The other reason is simplicity. Our old mechanical power meters simply run backwards when delivering power to the grid, making the billing real easy.
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Residential networks usually have a diversity factor of about 10-- the peak of any one house is 10x the average. With solar, peak generation is generally 5x average demand. Across 100 homes with no solar in the daytime you might see 200kW load. If all the homes have "net zero" solar then the power generated is likely going to be close to 1MW. Now the utility needs 5x the infrastructure, but generates no income.
It works much better in mixed developments where no energy is exported, but they want to protect
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Informative)
Because they are usually required to pay customers a lot more for feed-in power than they can generate it for, with no allowance for their internal cost overheads, etc.
Basically they become a free power storage and backup facility only paid for any extra usage) for the customers, which is great for adoption, but means that non solar customers are adding further subsidy to the solar customers (over and above the common subside via taxation/government grants).
You cite factors that fall against solar, but miss all the ones that fall in solar's favor. The biggest is peak shaving. In many areas, usage peaks coincide with when the sun is shining. Peak power is the most expensive power. Imagine building a power plant and running it seven hours a year. Welcome to peaker plants. That's some hellishly expensive electricity. In places like Hawaii, Texas, Arizona, and southern California, when people put more solar PV in, the utility needs fewer peaker plants. This is HUGE. You know how much credit most utilities want to give to solar for that? Zero.
But if the utility does something to eliminate the need for a peaker plant, you can bet your entire net worth the utility will be asking the rate commission for higher rates to reward them.
The best work on this subject (trying to figure out what price has no one subsidizing any one) is coming out of the Rocky Mountain Institute. A good starting place is their survey of existing literature (http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center%2FLibrary%2F2013-13_eLabDERCostValue). Austin electric also appears to have done really good work in establishing what they call a "fair value of solar". By their measure, the fair value of solar in Austin is currently higher than the retail rate. As more solar is added, this rate will fall. The rate is assessed annually.
Peak demand time (Score:3)
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:3)
Well stated and less scathing than I would've been.
One additional thing you left out is transmission loss, which small generators solve. Getting 1kwh to my house over the grid goes over high tension lines from 80 mi away to a distribution point 1mi away. I don't know the exact loss, but I'd be surprised if it were above 80%. It's pretty high compared to me sending excess energy back into the grid for my neighbors to use 300 feet away.
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You cite factors that fall against solar, but miss all the ones that fall in solar's favor. The biggest is peak shaving. In many areas, usage peaks coincide with when the sun is shining. Peak power is the most expensive power. Imagine building a power plant and running it seven hours a year. Welcome to peaker plants. That's some hellishly expensive electricity. In places like Hawaii, Texas, Arizona, and southern California, when people put more solar PV in, the utility needs fewer peaker plants. This is HUGE. You know how much credit most utilities want to give to solar for that? Zero.
But if the utility does something to eliminate the need for a peaker plant, you can bet your entire net worth the utility will be asking the rate commission for higher rates to reward them.
The best work on this subject (trying to figure out what price has no one subsidizing any one) is coming out of the Rocky Mountain Institute. A good starting place is their survey of existing literature (http://www.rmi.org/Knowledge-Center%2FLibrary%2F2013-13_eLabDERCostValue). Austin electric also appears to have done really good work in establishing what they call a "fair value of solar". By their measure, the fair value of solar in Austin is currently higher than the retail rate. As more solar is added, this rate will fall. The rate is assessed annually.
No, YOU are missing a big point.
You get no 'peak shaving' because 1) the peaks are very rarely during high solar output hours (there is no midday peak), but far more
importantly, 2) the solar users ARE USING THEIR OWN POWER AT PEAK. now, I know you will argue that there is a net reduction of
peak load, which is true, but there is also an equal reduction in generated income associated with the fact that the people using solar
are far more likely to be low net users. The result is a smaller market of higher peak
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Informative)
Absolutely false -- horribly false.
On a day-to-day and month-to-month accounting basis, my utility (Salt River Project in Arizona) gives me a kWh-for-kWh credit. If I generate 20 kWh during the day, use 15 kWh during the day, and another 5 kWh during the night, I have net zero usage.
Surpluses are carried over day-to-day and month-to-month. If I have a net debit at the end of the month, I'm charged the regular rate for that electricity. If I have a surplus, it's carried over to the next month.
Once a year, in the spring, if I have a net surplus, SRP credits my account and resets the surplus to zero. And I generate about half again as much as I consume -- enough to power my not-yet-purchased electric vehicle -- so they credit me a fair amount every year. It's enough to pay the basic connection fee for about half the year, in fact, so I only even pay that for about six months per year.
But.
Rather than crediting me at the $0.12 / kWh typical residential retail rate, or the $0.25+ / kWh they purchase peak summer power (which is when I'm generating most of my surplus electricity), they pay me about $0.02 / kWh.
By my rough back-of-the-envelope calculations, they're now profiting from me almost as much as I used to pay them in total. As in, what used to be their gross receipts from me is now their net.
What business wouldn't be thrilled with such a business model?
So, do please stop spreading the lies of the Koch Brothers. The poor widdle utilities aren't being hurt by the solar meanies -- quite the opposite. They're making money from us, hand over fist.
They're just a bunch of greedy sick fucks who want to roast the goose that's laying the golden eggs, is all.
Cheers,
b&
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Insightful)
On a day-to-day and month-to-month accounting basis, my utility (Salt River Project in Arizona) gives me a kWh-for-kWh credit. If I generate 20 kWh during the day, use 15 kWh during the day, and another 5 kWh during the night, I have net zero usage.
The fair price for net-zero usage is more than $0. You are deriving a service from the grid, which is presumably why you're connected to it. In this case, you're using it to time-shift your energy usage, rather than buying your own batteries and going off-grid. So if you draw 20 kWh from the grid at some point, and feed 20 kWh back into it at another point, and are paying $0 for that, you are being subsidized.
The correct accounting would be that you should be charged retail rates for what you draw out of the grid, but reimbursed only at wholesale rates for what you feed into the grid, like any other power producer who feeds into the grid is paid.
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:4, Insightful)
When he generates an excess they only pay him wholesale for that. (2c/kWh)
I think it is actually a reasonable model.
Maintaining the lines is a pretty fixed cost = connection fee.
Generate less than you use = you pay retail on the diff like everyone else.
Generate more than you use = you collect wholesale on what you sell, same as other power suppliers.
They make a profit on selling your excess power, you get free energy storage.
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You are ignoring the excess energy which they pay him 10% of the going rate for.
Presumably for now they can sell this for full retail.
In a few years, probably not so much.
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>Basically they become a free power storage and backup facility only paid for any extra usage) for the customers, which is great for adoption, but means that non solar customers are adding further subsidy to the solar customers (over and above the common subside via taxation/government grants).
Not here in California. We get to pay a monthly fee to be hooked up to the grid that is independent of our net power generated or consumed.
Even still, PG&E has lobbied (and is still lobbying) to not have to pay
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Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:4, Informative)
I could see how it might be dangerous to electrical workers that are working to restore power to your neighborhood, if your house is putting power on the line when they expect nothing on the line, but to firefighters trying to put out a house fire?
Firefighters putting out a fire may need to cut into walls or the roof in order to put out a fire. Since there are potentially energized wires in the walls and in the roof, a hazard exists for firefighters. Normally you can turn off the power to a house by removing the electrical meter (at least here in the US anyway), which emergency personnel may do if they are concerned about cutting into energized wires. If you have a solar system or other local power generation system, the assumption that you can make the house electrically safe by pulling the meter may not be a good one. Electrical code here requires that at the power meter (where the power comes into the house) and at the power distribution panel (inside the house where you would turn off the power) there to be signage indicating that there is a solar system (or alternate power source) in place and how to disable it. In addition, code requires there to be a disconnect switch on the roof next to the solar panels. To protect line workers who are repairing a downed power grid, electrical code here requires that the solar system automatically disconnect itself from the grid if the grid is down. This prevents power from being back fed to the grid while it is potentially being worked on.
Re: There must be a very good reason... (Score:2)
They already do. There are charged for energy generation, energy transport and the connection itself. Energy generation can typically be swapped out for different companies connected to your utilities' net or those buying/selling it on the commodities market. The rest is pure profit for your utility (hint: access and transport have typically been paid for by an array of governments). If you cut into both their transport and generation fees, you're left with the monthly connection fee (~$20 around here)
Re:There must be a very good reason... (Score:5, Informative)
Because it is exceedingly expensive to do so.
The issue is that of voltage tolerance. The grid is designed to supply power form central to peripheral. The central voltage is held higher than peripheral, so that the expected voltage drop through supply impedance will result in a voltage at the customer premises which is within tolerance.
If current flow is reversed through the high impedance "last mile", then you can get severe voltage elevation at the point of connection of the generation. This can result in equipment damage (usually the customers) and legal problems for the electricity network operator.
The only way to deal with this problem is to increase the "prospective fault current" of the customer circuit by reducing the system impedance. This isn't something simple like replacing transformers, it is extremely expensive and requires repalcement of cabling with heavier gauge wire, upgrade of safety equipment to withstand the higher fault currents, and may require uprating of transformers and switchgear to handle the magnetic and thermal forces of a fault on the now upgraded circuit.
There are other issues too. Grid transformers are often not designed to operate in reverse power - the tappings are designed for voltage drop in the direction of HV to LV. Under reverse power, there may be insufficient tap range to get satisfactory voltages. Only way around this is to replace the transformer.
Finally, there are second order effects, such as reduced efficiency of transformers when operated in reverse power, due to higher levels of flux leakage from the secondary (primary windings usually go nearest the core, so that stray flux cuts through the secondary and transfers power).
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So bascially what your saying is, even if the customer has all the latest upgrades, and perfection in his local house energy-grid + two way energy connection, the incumbent last mile is still crap?
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No, there's nothing *wrong* with the last mile, per se. It does what it is designed to do--channel power from the utility into the house, and it does it efficiently and reliably. It is not designed to accept power flowing *from* the house because when it was designed, this was not seen as a possibility.
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This is true. However, you cannot install grid-connected solar in the UK without permission from your local electricity distribution network operator (DNO).
There are now significant parts of the county where the DNOs routinely deny permission because the grid is saturated.
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It is too simple. If everyone had solar panels the power companies would go broke, unless they jacked up their connection fees. But, that would unfairly impact people who can't afford to put solar panes on their roofs. It would be better if power companies bought the power from homeowners at wholesale costs during peak production hours and sold them power at normal retail prices when the sun is down. Net-metering, like the system you describe, is codified in many state's laws, including Hawaii, but I do
Connection fee (Score:2)
My electric bill has two lines, the connection fee ( a straight 41 cents per day) and the actual electrical usage fee.
Clearly the utilities can do it this way, but not all of them do.
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It's not building out their grids to accept feed-in; it's rebuilding existing grids to handle sudden surges in power at the end-points of distribution.
The voltages at the endpoints of existing grids (i.e. your house) are dependent upon the amount of power generated centrally at the power generation plants. The power company must match the power generation to the load. If they don't generate enough, voltages drop (which burns out motors in air conditioners, refrigerators, etc) Industrial motors are usually s
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It is a subsidy for an alternative energy discriminated against by a recent monopoly that is now being given a job in an affirmative action to redress past indiscretions.
Suck it up... any sentient life form is aware these cost burdens borne by the poor electrical provider will be passed right along to existing customers, those electrical consumers most likely to benefit from delivery innovations.
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> The panels themselves are cheap, but installing the batteries and storage necessary arn't, so people appear to just put up the panels, run what they can, then take the rest from the power company.
Almost. We run what we can, and sell the excess generation to the power company. We buy it back when our demands exceed our generation (mostly at night).
> This means the base load the power company has to supply at night is probably significantly higher than during the day, meaning their capacity for pea
Unbelievable (Score:2, Interesting)
If you can't connect backfeed to the grid, you can't connect new load to the grid, either.
It shouldn't matter which way the watts are flowing for a particular customer.
Re:Unbelievable (Score:4, Interesting)
Except as mentioned above, the power company becomes free off-site "storage" for your off-peak power. You generate power you don't need in the morning, and you get it back "free" from them in the afternoon when you get home from work.
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Except as mentioned above, the power company becomes free off-site "storage" for your off-peak power. You generate power you don't need in the morning, and you get it back "free" from them in the afternoon when you get home from work.
And this is still beneficial to the power company, because generally, when you get home from work, it's no longer peak usage. This gives them more peak capacity to satisfy the rest of their customers, without having to build an expensive new plant.
Re: Unbelievable (Score:3)
Stop saying "free storage". It's not. There are two things. First, the power co doesn't "store" those electrons, they SELL THEM. It's more like a loan, and you're the bank. They should pay interest.
Second, they power co benefits from your electrons. During peak times, which is generally when the sun is shining and people have their AC cranked, the power co would normally have to send tons of power out, losing a TON in the transmission due to capacitance and resistance loss. Until we get superconducting wiri
To whom the Watts flow... (Score:2)
It matters to the Utility, because of the watts are flowing OUT, then they have to PAY YOU for that power. They don't want to do this.
It all boils down to this simple axiom: "Follow the money."
Re:To whom the Watts flow...ummm no! (Score:2)
considering solar is during the day. the peak usage is from 830am to 9pm, so basically the energy company is getting cheap solar from consumer, selling it at the highest peak rates and then complaining to get more of a handout.
http://www.pge.com/en/mybusiness/rates/tvp/toupricing.page?WT.mc_id=Adwords_peak%20electricity%20hours_b_c [pge.com]
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It shouldn't matter which way the watts are flowing for a particular customer.
So you think you can run an entire factory off an extension cord? Afterall, it shouldn't matter "which way the watts are flowing", right? A simple application of common sense here would reveal that those giant overhead power lines probably carry a bit more juice than the USB charger you have hooked up to your computer. But the electricity flows along each of those conduits until reaching its destination.
Load balancing is incredibly important to the stability of a power grid, especially a small one, like, sa
I'm torn... (Score:2)
I live in Arizona, and I'm not quite ready to put solar on my roof. Getting my connection locked in and grandfathered before the new "tax" on selling solar back to the power company wasn't enough to sway me to jump. The technology keeps getting better, and the current break-even in initial outlay might recoup a lot faster in a few more years. That $30,000 worth of equipment might be $20,000 next year, and I'm a gambler. [This is the same reason I'm leasing a Leaf. Who knows how many miles the 2017 Leaf
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I live in a municipality zone at the moment for power, and they don't buy back power at all, matter of fact they won't even give credits for what solar will put back into their system. How this is legal, I don't know but stuff like this needs to be addressed, and it's easily addressed by giving the customer credit for half of what they produce on the bill.
One sided analysis (Score:5, Insightful)
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Curious... how much does a "typical" home installation cost there? (Assuming a family of 4, average house around 2,000 SF)
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It is considerably easier with SMUD, which is not a traditional for profit electrical company.
It was a lot harder to justify Solar power however, as 19 cents a KW at tier 2 takes a long time to earn back.
Sometimes you can win, however... (Score:3, Informative)
Does this make me think twice about it? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Yeah, a couple/few years ago the energy to produce a panel fell blow the energy that it would produce over its lifetime.
It passed that threshold probably a couple of decades ago.
Googling around, it appears you are referring to actually generating more energy [sustainablebusiness.com] than it took to produce, which is a threshold which was achieved apparently both in 2000 and some point in the last three years. If there is a future, large surge in solar generation installation, then there might well be another period of net negative energy production until solar generation catches up with the cost of producing it.
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it appears you are referring to actually generating more energy than it took to produce
What's the distinction?
If I have just made a solar panel, then its lifetime hasn't happened yet. So even if it can produce vastly more energy over its lifetime than it took to make, it starts operation with a net deficit. And not all solar panels are operated for their rated lifespan.
Footshooting... (Score:2)
Yes, utilities can refuse to accept power from people's solar inverters, but what that will result in is people still remaining on solar... but going with off-grid setups. Instead of the panels going to the inverters, then to the grid tie, people will be going with panels, charge controllers, battery setups, then auxiliary power panels to provide emergency power, or even just move some low current use circuits permanently off the mains.
Computers and electronics are an ideal candidate for this. A good PSW
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I could see lawsuits (class-action) if they try to outright ban homeowners from installing DC power systems in their homes. I doubt they could ever do that.
Making a direct back-feed connection to the Grid illegal? They can most likely pull that off... for a time. An act of Congress could be forthcoming to change that, too. (Remember the old Ma Bell, where you couldn't connect ANYTHING user-owned to their network?)
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I do have a solar energy system (Score:2)
Dear atavistic energy companies: (Score:2)
Ideas? SUPPLY the means of your reinvention. You've
Maybe profit is one motivation... (Score:4, Insightful)
Excess energy on the grid is a real issue, especially if there has been a significant wave of people adopting these systems. If there isn't demand for all the electricity being pumped onto the grid, there has to be a place to dump the energy. This is an even bigger issue with wind and other intermittent sources.
If the grid is overwhelmed and there is no demand, should folks expect to get paid for that energy, which could actually cost the utility money to dump somewhere?
Something else to bear in mind- the utility has to operate base load plants no matter what.
Recent literature indicates that these issues can be overcome (one example from Utilities Policy [sciencedirect.com]), but that the process will take time. Utilities are a very conservative industry and are often slow to adapt new systems because they have stringent boundary conditions.
Just playing the devils advocate here- I'm sure profit is a part of it.
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You forget that the local grid isn't isolated, it's interconnected with other grids (see http://www.infrastructureusa.org/interactive-map-visualizing-the-us-electric-grid/ [infrastructureusa.org]). If there isn't demand locally, the power will be routed across the interconnects to where there is demand, and the utility will get paid for that power. Since solar, wind and the like tend to have peak production at times when demand's also higher than baseline, any "excess" power wouldn't affect base-load plants but would primarily red
Re:Maybe profit is one motivation... (Score:4, Insightful)
You forget that the local grid isn't isolated [...]
That might be a valid point if we weren't talking about Hawaii!
Straw Man Article (Score:3)
Meeting electrical demand is a far more complicated issue then this article makes out.
Utilities aiming at their own feet (Score:4, Insightful)
I live in the Valley of the Sun, and most of the southern half of my roof is covered in solar panels. I generate about half again as much electricity as I consume. This is by design; the plan is to get an electric vehicle in the not-too-terribly-distant future, and my excess generation capacity is enough that I should be able to drive for basically free. And the whole thing will pay itself off in about seven years total; if you remember the Rule of 70, that works out to about a 10% annual rate of return on my investment.
My utility provider is SRP; it was APS who was taking Koch Brothers money to fuck over their customers.
I've got a really good thing going for myself, obviously, but SRP is also making a nice profit off of me. My peak generation coincides with peak demand here. At the same time as they sell my electricity to my neighbors at $0.14 / kWh, they're paying twice that to spool up diesel generators...and they're paying me about $0.02 / kWh for my surplus. And I've signed over all my green credits to them, as well. Sweet deal for both of us, and I'm glad for it to be that way -- that's how good business profits are supposed to work.
If, however, APS's original proposal went into effect and SRP adopted it or something similar for themselves...well, at that point, I'd tell them to fuck off, get a battery system, and drop off the grid entirely. Changing the equation like that would wipe out any financial advantage I get from my investment and hugely profit the utility -- and, remember, I'm already far and away the most profitable customer they have on the block. It would really suck to have to pay again for a battery system; I've got better things I could do with that money. But I'd much rather invest that money in real physical goods that provide me with actual benefits (including, in this case, having the lights stay on should the grid ever go down) than throw gobs of money for no good reason at greedy profiteering corporate CEOs.
I can assure you, if the utilities keep up this sort of thing...well, they'll "protect" their profits for a little while, but it won't be long before people start dropping off the grid in droves. And that will be a bad thing for everybody -- but, most of all, for the utilities.
Cheers,
b&
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Ridiculous situation, all the way around.... (Score:5, Interesting)
If we had truly privatized power companies, I'd expect this behavior. After all, it would only make sense. You invested a bunch of money to build a whole infrastructure for power generation, doing all of your cost calculations based on people relying on it for 100% of their electricity needs. You have no provisions in place to store incoming electricity for future resale to users. What upside would you have if your customers start to generate their own power?
But we don't. We have government regulated monopolies. I'm not trying to argue the merits for or against the arrangement right now, except to say this means to me, they should be required to comply with whatever the government believes is the best way forward. If government is going to issue tax breaks and incentives for installing solar power? Then it's clear it thinks this type of energy generation on an individual basis should be encouraged. So how can it sit by and tolerate the power companies imposing rules that run counter to that goal?
Personally, I think as a homeowner, my ideal solar installation would be one where I don't need to be tied to the grid at all. Tesla is working on battery packs for homes that look a lot like refrigerators, which you'd couple to a solar panel installation to provide power at night or during bad weather conditions when the panels aren't capturing energy. I've heard that currently, they make the cost of the installation a bit prohibitive, but there's a good chance they'll become successful as part of a mainstream installation in the next 3 years or so. From what I've heard, reviewers of the setup said it was possible to run the entire home for as long as 48 hours or so on nothing but the battery pack, as long as power was used somewhat sensibly (not just leaving all the lights on in the house for no reason, etc.).
Are the technical concerns legimiate? (Score:2)
In the article the utility suggested that power surges and other grid problems could be traced back to the influx of new solar. Could it be a valid excuse that the grid isn't smart enough to take in a bunch of additional inputs and they need some time to upgrade?
Sources (Score:2)
Most electricity in Hawaii is generated using petroleum and coal fired plants. These plants are notorious for their slow warm up and cool down. With enough solar feeding in during peak times they will produce excess heat before the rising demand when the sun goes down and to compensate for the diving demand when the sun comes up. Coal and oil plants are not light switches. So in effect enough solar panels could produce power than can't be used but still has to be purchased by the grid companies and the grid
HECO is not denying Solar installations. (Score:5, Informative)
Our Utility Admits It is about Money (Score:5, Insightful)
Our utility has also put a ban on "Net Metering Connects" as they call it here. They fully admit it is all about money but still try and look green. It is all a sham and a scam.
The way net metering works here is during the summer months when you generate excess power you build up a credit on your account. Then come January 1st take all that extra credit that you have built up and donate it to themselves such that you start the new year with no credit during the darkest, cloudiest time of the year. Now you have to buy power from them until you get to late summer when you've finally got a net metered credit again. Very lucrative for the power company.
So, why don't they want more connections? Because they say the people who are net metering aren't having to pay the cost of power delivery and they are protesting this by demanding a new fee and higher rates.
Pure greed.
First they ignore you, (Score:5, Interesting)
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mahatma Gandhi
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Solar power continues to get cheaper. I'm interested in the implications for the broader energy market. Even a 5% drop in demand for coal, natural gas, and oil could have a tremendous impact on the boarder market.
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Re:Solar power is subsidy of rich (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not fund research into energy storage technologies so when the grid is overloaded, the energy can be saved and used later?
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Re:Solar power is subsidy of rich (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's the practical outcome of these policies: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/news/2013/12/20/81497/baucus-tax-reform-cuts-46-billion-in-oil-breaks/ [americanprogress.org]
The tax subsidies for renewable energy are dwarfed by the tax subsidies for oil and gas. The oil and gas production industry is hugely profitable. When an industry has the top five companies making a trillion dollars profit over ten years why do they need any tax breaks that other businesses don't get?
The real rich bastards are the oil company executives. You know how they spend that vast profit? Stock buybacks. About 25% of big oil company profit is going into stock buy back programs, which is more then they spend on exploration and acquisitions. Because of way that executive compensation is structured with stock options and deferred payouts, this ends up being a huge multiplier payout multiplier for the executives. They get their stock at a ridiculous discount, pump up the value and realize vast personal wealth.
All the investors are happy because they see their valuation go up as well so they don't complain. It's short term gain over long term profit. According to this 2007 Bloomberg article [bloomberg.com], the big oil companies are effectively liquidating themselves over the longer term.
Re:Conservation Efforts (Score:4, Insightful)
Um, I'm glad you neglected the other reasons prices went up such as an ongoing drought and a growing southwestern population that has uses far more then the small amount offset by your reduced usage. But hey, go live in the middle of a fucking desert then bitch about water prices and see if I give a damn.