HP Shows Off Power Over Ethernet Thin Client 202
angry tapir writes "HP has unveiled an all-in-one thin client capable of being powered by an Ethernet cable. The t410 AiO supports the Type 1 Power over Ethernet (PoE) standard, which means it is capable of drawing its power from a network connection, although it can be powered by standard AC power. It uses an ARM-based processor and has an integrated 18.5-inch monitor, and it is capable of being used for virtual desktops through Windows RDP, VMware View and Citrix ICA."
But... (Score:2)
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Probably could play it over Onlive (et al).
Forget web browsing (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Forget web browsing (Score:4, Insightful)
But for point of sale, front counter, and callcentre work it'll be just fine.
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It supports VMware View (PCoIP) and Citrix ICA.
Both of these natively support Flash/Video just fine (I'm playing a 720P Youtube Video in my VMware View session right now...)
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We are about to migrate to a VDI infrastructure. My team is scared, as the 'standard' terminals are the RDP-Only Wyse jobbies. But there is an option that we may get the PCoIP ones. I saw a demo and that is less scary.
How have you found it so far? Sounds like video is OK so that's a relief...
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Some of the $30 - $50 Chinese thin clients are a lot more flexible than that. Your other option is XRDP.
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No, my other option is not XRDP, my options are RDP and if I am lucky, PCoIP as stated :)
Unfortunately, we do not get any say in such matters when it is a different department doing the rollout :(
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Been awhile since I've looked but tschn.com [tschn.com] will have some but you can find more on aliexpress.com if you don't mind doing a bit of hunting.
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using Hyper-V for the host of the VDI's and using the RemoteFX adapter fixes a lot of the video playback problems..
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Compare to AVC-playing phones (Score:2)
Does a 15W PoE client have the juice to decrypt and decompress a fullscreen, full-resolution video display?
How much juice does an AVC-playing phone use with the brightness turned all the way down?
What sort of server horsepower is necessary
There's a reason Intel is putting IGPs on its CPUs: to assist in video encoding and decoding. Remote desktop becomes not unlike OnLive.
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I do this all the time on my HP thin clients running from a linux server. you can run flash and java natively on the thin client. at least the X86 ones.
but in a corporate environment, that is not an issue, 1000bt streams the remote session quite nicely for windows playback.
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Don't know about your impression of modern thin clients but the XenDesktop remote supports HDX and full screen flash video playback without a problem. I even hook up USB webcams to the thin clients for video conferencing.
Remember, this is basically just a machine that will remote desktop into a machine with much more horsepower behind it.
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Average Joes doesn't use Thin Clients of PoE.
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s/use/buys/
The average Joes and Janes in our shops and work floors *use* them all the time. They have no clue what that small magic black box actually is, and how it's different from their kids stuff back home, but they use it just fine. ;-)
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people interested in that would rather really buy a 250$ netbook and a hundred bucks monitor, tape the netbook to back of the monitor and run a power cord than buy a thin client that runs over poe. it's going to be cheaper too.
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Power over Ethernet? (Score:2)
I guess that it runs on Mana, if Ethernet can restore it to full power.
For serious though, this is pretty cool, although I wonder how this standard holds up when under load.
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I don't see the point in this idea.
If you have a thin client and you have made it efficient enough to only need 13W, then non trickle-charged PoE is fine.
If you have a thin client(TC) that needs more than 13W, it must be inefficient (As HP can do it in 13W) so rather than develop a trickle-charge TC, develop an efficient 13W system.
If you have an efficient TC that needs more than 13W, then what is it trying to do that warrants the extra power need?
What is a *fat* thin client? A thin client is merely an endp
Plenty of great uses for this (Score:3)
Receptionists, POS terminals, all kinds of good uses. This is the way I set up my computers at home - good desktop, cheap laptop with RDP. I could use one. Unfortunately no idea of the price. At $200 these will sell like crazy. At $400, may as well just get a big netbook. Knowing HP, they'll sell at $450.
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Lower cost of maintenance (Score:2)
They might have a lower overall cost. Although since they're purely a thin client and not just web terminals, you might still need a bunch of far more expensive server hardware to support them.
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Based on monitor prices, I'm assuming at least another $100 for the version with a monitor. Quite possibly $400 for a monitor that keeps within PoE energy use limits and reduces cables and loose bits to wander off....
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Knowing HP, they'll sell at $450.
Just wait a few months til they drop to $99
Yawn (Score:5, Funny)
Wake me up when it can do power over wireless ethernet.
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I don't would you anymore wake under that radiation!
The Takeaway (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The Takeaway (Score:5, Informative)
If it's a thin client doing RDP or such the speed to the thin client is negligible. I use RDP clients over 2mbit internet connections nearly everyday and it works fine - even with the increased latency. Keep in mind all the file access and disk I/O is taking place on the RDP server, not the thin client. The only data going to and from the thin client is information about how to render the video output. You could even use Photoshop effectively through this.
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Absolutely. Some of the RDP connections I make are over 256kbit VSAT connections with greater than five seconds of latency at times. Drop the resolution and color depth and it's usable. But I what I'm saying is that from my experience 2mbit and reasonable latency of 100ms RDP can *seem* like using a 'local OS'. Maybe just a bit sluggish PC ;) But in turn, some aspects can be far superior. Like disk I/O, for example, if you are running an RDP session on a 32 core system with SAN access and want to compress a
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My experience with RDP is that the mouse cursor is always a couple of pixels off, making it difficult to hit small targets. For example, I find it nearly impossible to resize columns by dragging in Windows 7 Explorer. So Photoshop via RDP? No thanks.
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How so?
Gigabit ethernet is overkill for a thin client running business software like a spreadsheet or a word processor, no? These are business machines, and not designed for employees to slack off and watch 720p video streams.
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The takeaway from the article: ... which drops to 10/100 when using PoE, thereby making it only marginally useful for very thin applications.
Marginally useful at 100MB? Uh, since this is a terminal primarily designed to run thin applications (RDP, Citrix) which were developed and can be optimized to run over dial-up, I'm failing to see your point here. Even negotiating at 10MB I doubt you would see an impact in an RDP session.
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Right. That is what I said. What part of marginally useful don't you understand? If it was Gigabit, with PXE [wikipedia.org] then it would be relatively useful. Anybody who employs thin clients for RDP and Citrix is wasting money. The cost of paying someone for their time spent waiting far outweighs the cost of the hardware. And yes, I know about TCO claims. The fact is that this approach is outmoded and outdated, and with good reas
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You appear to be arguing that enabling POE renders the networking connection "marginally useful", or "less useful" because of a speed drop from 1Gb to 100Mb.
In the typical corporate environment, 100Mb is more than adequate even for a regular managed desktop PC, let alone a thin client. For nearly all thin client use cases, even 10Mb is quite adequate.
Or, to put it another way, your assertion is wrong. In a typical corporate environment, a 100Mb network with POE is almost certainly going to be *more useful
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That would be the part where you're making a sweeping, generalised judgement call. It seems reasonable to assume one of the most common scenarios would be encompassed.
Howev
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Pure latency considerations will make it detectable that you aren't sitting at the computer; but thin client protocols are designed to be usable even over boring residential internet connections, 10/100 is comparative luxury.
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The takeaway from the article: ... which drops to 10/100 when using PoE, thereby making it only marginally useful for very thin applications.
You are incorrect, sir. 100mbit is rather more speed than is necessary for almost any thin client use. RDP, for instance, transmits basic window metrics (ie. "draw a window at x1,y1,x2,y2", etc etc), so is highly bandwidth efficient. In fact, with no fancy GUI effects, RDP can run quite comfortably on 10mbit, or even less. I know this for a fact because I work remotely using RDP quite often.
Is 100mbit enough to run a RDP session displaying 1080p60 video? No. But, then, that isn't what RDP is for, and
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and this things display only runs at 1366x768.
And you hit the nail on the head with that one - 80% of users in our call center use dual monitors, some with as high as 2560x1600. But it will work fine for some POS stations or reception desks, I'm sure.
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I also wonder how much power the 4 USB ports can deliver. Presumably the keyboard and mouse occupy 2 ports. What would happen if you attached a USB-powered hard drive?
Nothing.
Seriously, nothing would happen. The disk would probably lay there, and won't even have enough power to turn on, pretty much the same thing that happens when you plug on into a really really old 1.0 USB port.
Late to the game (Score:2, Informative)
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... except the JackPC doesn't power the monitor. HP's new thin client does.
What this means is that a thin client can be connected and powered using a single cable. Why bother with a thin client that is PoE if you still had to power a monitor?
I say "Bravo" to HP for the achievement.
How well does it run LTSP? (Score:2)
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If it boots via PXE, or the equivalent, it might be fairly easy to support (for someone in the know). Provided, of course, hardware drivers exist but TI is usually fairly encouraging of free software, e.g. beagleboard.
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Didn't we do this before? (Score:2)
Mind you back them we called them Ethernet killers, and boy was the light show good.
Awesome! (Score:3)
Uh, no. I can't think of any either.
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PoE means a single UPS to keep all the thin clients alive during power outages. Think call centers in countries with spotty power grids...
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Or, for that matter, if you have dirty power coming out of your main line, you'd only really need a power cleaner in one location for one group of machines.
Power isn't so rare (Score:2)
Most offices, POS, warehouses, etc are already going to have power outlets already. You know... to run other stuff.
PoE Standard is 15 watts (Score:2)
According to HP this draws 13.5 watts when using PoE and yes, that includes the damn display.
Now if they'd offer similar setups with Linux support, I'd finally be able to get my NetBoot setup working correctly in the office. Much nicer to simply use a thin client that can be easily replaced in moments when they die while ensuring all of the damn data the employees actually need access to are on the servers and properly backed up.
Re:Back, to the Future... (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you seen a PoE terminal before? I think that was the point of this one...
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(yes, I did get the reference)
You just need a high enough voltage (Score:2)
How thick is the insulation on your 22AWG wires?
Re:Back, to the Future... (Score:5, Funny)
What happens if you put a PoE device on each end of the cable? Free energy...?
Re:Back, to the Future... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not if you wanted to setup a call center with 400 desks you would not. That is what this is for.
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If those 400 desks need a desk lamp? I'll use standard Thin clients and plug them into the outlet in that cube.
Now if all 400 desks do not have any power ran to them, this is a viable solution.
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Typical cube farm - think Wal-Mart filled with cubicals. Overhead lighting, nothing local. It would discourage people from the "I'll plug my phone in at work" mentality.
Perfect for the typical call center.
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I'll plug my phone in at work
Oooo, or space heater.
-l
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I was thinking in the context of a dozens or hundreds of desks spaced apart and connected only to the power outlets. I'm too lazy to look up how the 500Mbit/s AV powerline systems handle sharing the medium but I bet it does not permit scaling up to support very many thin desktop clients. Also, managing the solution is probably not straightforward in the same way as even a modest corporate switching solution could be managed.
I would have thought that there might be a gap in the market for something more upsc
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They don't. Those cost money, and generate heat that costs more money to get rid of. Their is overhead lighting. You should see the cost savings by firing anyone who brings in anything that plugs into the wall.
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Pretty cool, but didn't we have this back in the 80's with the uber-futuristic concept of these things called Mainframes and Terminals?
"Marty, here's a $50 - go get yourself a Pepsi."
Thin clients are all the rage these days. They work great with "The Cloud"
Re:Back, to the Future... (Score:5, Insightful)
And they eliminate 50% of your IT staff needs. no more dealing with workstations and idiot users, I can replace a failed thin client in 35 seconds and the user has no loss of data or any workflow interruption.
a general office is dumb to buy desktop PC's anymore. Thin clients for the sales, marketing, accounting, and general office, workstations for the people that actually use computers and you are done. Spend the money in the back office.
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I was thinking the same thing, "ethernet", No wifi? No bluetooth? No USB? If not (no I didn't RTFA) this thing is a complete throwback except that it doesn't use a CRT.
Re:Back, to the Future... (Score:4, Funny)
I hear it also has less space than a Nomad.
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??? Do you think this is going to be marketed to home users? Norton Internet Security (trial edition), Yahoo toolbar, and Wildtangent Games all don't run on ARM.
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No apps run on the client, it just boots the os and then runs the apps on the server.
I suggest looking up what thin clients do and how they operate, you surely dont think they have an ARM version of office 2014.
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I've had some good experiences with their mid and high end servers, laserjets, thin clients and even their high-end business laptops. Their desktop/workstation PCs generally suck as much as their consumer grade equipment.
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Some of their printers were friggin' tanks. I'm thinking specifically of of the HP 4, 5 and 5n LaserJets. Those things could not be killed.
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The designers of the Raspberry Pi system are strongly considering PoE in their next incarnation. Depending on its capabilities it might do what I need, even if I have t
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You can't just plug these into "any" ethernet. They require specific switches that provide that capability, so I seriously doubt this will ever be aimed at home use.
They don't seem to have caught on, at all(more's the pity, everybody hates wall-warts); but you can get an otherwise wholly undistinguished 8-port switch that will support 50-60 watts worth of PoE devices(some on all 8 ports, with devices below maximum draw limits, some on only 4) for under $80...
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Your reasons there are for any thin clients, not specifically for PoE thin clients. Neither of your reasons mentions, or requires, PoE...
I agree with the parent too, this is not a *consumer* product, there is just no need for PoE thin clients at home. Unless you REALLY want to reduce desktop cable clutter...
It's all about savings with large numbers of clients.
Re:Back, to the Future... (Score:4, Insightful)
No. The entire thing with this product is that it supports PoE, not that it is a thin client.
Saying that we had the same thing before would be like saying "Didn't we have that in the 1890's" when someone shows up with a flying car just because it's also a car.
What is neat here is that they have reduced the power consumption to less than 13W to be able to run it on PoE.
Removing the need to install power-cables in a class-room or similiar is pretty nice.
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Hp thin clients all do support X on their own, or at least historically. The last few were just X86 pc's that you netbooted what you wanted, so I was netbooting a linux to do remote X sessions.
Re:How long... (Score:4, Funny)
more important, how long until someone makes a wireless version of it?
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more important, how long until someone makes a wireless version of it?
Powered over Wifi? Or maybe, using photovoltaic cells?
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Power beaming, like the satellite power station idea.
Too bad it will only work if your microwave is set to high and the door is left open.
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They have these things called "rechargable batteries" and walls all have these things called "power outlets."
Battery life (Score:2)
Re:How long... (Score:5, Informative)
Also of note, their non-WinCE clients have, historically, run a badly butchered version of debian(and, unless they've finally decided to fix the problem, several years later, one that has amazingly trivial exploits to get to a root shell even in 'kiosk' mode, much less in admin mode). I don't know if they've played bootloader games with their ARM models or not; but unless they've tightened the hell out of their linux firmware I strongly suspect that at least the non-kiosk mode will still have a way to sneak into the guts of the stock image. Also, since they tend to support running a browser locally(either WinCE's delightful IE build, or a slightly elderly version of Firefox, I'm assuming that X11 is already set to go, for local use, in the stock firmware.
I'd give it "about as long as it takes for one to get on ebay". HP's prices for thin clients are...optimistic... given their hardware specs; but you can find them at pleasingly low prices once they get shuffled off to support-contract-expired corporate retirement land. They make decent little mini-PCs for the price.
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Maybe because in a large homogenous environment, small power savings can add up?
I am not sure on the relative efficiencies between PoE and a small switching power supply on every desk, but I imagine if the runs are not too long to the closet, that the PoE would be more efficient.
Not to mention, less cables for the users to get all confused & tangled with. Just plug it in & go...
Re:Why ? (Score:2)
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Our desks actually have 2 sockets on the UPS, so that point is moot here :)
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This has a display built in.
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Because you don't have to pay for cubicles with power in them? Because you can save a ton on electrical costs? This could easily save more than the cost of the endpoints if you open a new call center.
These are real problems, that you clearly lack the experience to understand.
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Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:4, Funny)
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Is it possible to power an 18.5" monitor (and a thin client) with POE, even if it's LED backlit?
That's what the article is about.. HP has just developed this.