Sony To Unveil New Fuel-Cell Prototype 116
Nakeot writes "On Friday, Sony plans to unveil their newest portable fuel-cell technology, aimed at a variety of mobile applications. From the article: "The system contains both a methanol fuel cell and a Li-on battery" and can "intelligently switch between power from the battery, fuel, or even both under high-draw circumstances." Sony intends to show off two models claimed to power your cell for a week or a month, respectively, as well as the latest developments with their sugar-batteries that can now run purely off your favorite cola beverage. This model builds on Sony's 2008 model, their first commercially-demonstratable prototype, and could make waves with Sony's OLED devices, but will Sony be able to avoid another battery recall?"
Power my cell for a week (Score:5, Funny)
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with their sugar-batteries that can now run purely off your favorite cola beverage
And you should be able to spill that beer on your cellphone, and it will run even longer!
Although maybe a rum and coke has more sugar in it than beer......
Darwin's Award (Score:2)
Exploding Li-Ion batteries so close to my genitals is risky enough, add methanol to it and you get a contender for Darwin's award.
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Mine lasts a week as well, but I go through at least 300 minutes every two weeks, especially when the girls are around.
I don't go through nearly as much cell time as toilet paper when they're around, though. My cell battery is far longer lasting than the TP.
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Wowie, yours too! Let's get together over beers and then shove greased-up yoda dolls up our asses while watching 300!
Didn't we just do that last week?
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My phone ALREADY lasts way longer than a week. Does that mean this battery is no better than existing ones? Or that someone has messed up the summary? I don't get what the advantage is of a battery that can only power a phone for a week.
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You can dump some methanol in and keep on going. A few ounces of liquid may be a lot easier to carry around than extra batteries, or the electric grid, depending on what you happen to be doing.
These are still vapor (Score:3, Insightful)
We have been hearing about fuel cells "just around the corner" for a freakin' decade now. I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.
SirWired
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The problem is a lot of things fall at one of the hurdles to becoming ubiquitous.
E.g. Field Emissions Displays looked promising a few years back and I thought they'd end up being used in pretty much all TVs. Oddly enough LCDs which back then were crap and expensive have ended up being good and cheap and have replaced CRTs almost completely.
I thought the same thing would happen with Plasma v LCD, but it seems to have peaked. It's still quite possible OLEDs will stay in the niche market of small screens for P
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If you turn enough corners you will eventually be facing the same way you started in the first place...
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What I really want to see is a unit that can be used as a big battery for solar installations. Let me produce hydrogen all day in the sun and then run the other way around at night.
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IIRC, that's done pretty well with compressed air in sealed caves, in pumping water uphill to be used for hydroelectric at night, or using flywheels.
Large fixed-installation power storage is very doable right now, but good portable power is still desperately needed.
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Yeah, that's the good stuff.
Re:These are still vapor (Score:4, Informative)
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Hi,
You are right, and the Clarity is really oool.
I saw presentations by the FC divisions of Honda, Nissan and Toyota today at the FC Expo. 2015 is the date they are aiming at to realize a serious Hydrogen market (though this will be a bit tough). Some important issues are starting in subzero weather (the water freezes... but they have gotten pretty far on this), anode deterioration when frequent start/stop develops an eletrolytiC gradient, and other things. They want to bring the expense down by 90% too. Th
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Fuel cell buses are already prowling the streets of several cities.
Buses, prowling. Interesting juxtaposition. I imagine an animated bus like a giant Herbie sneaking along the street, trying in vain to hide behind street signs.
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and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.
Yeah but it looks so real... like I can just reach out and touch the drive.
I also like the psychedelic colors.
Seems promising to me!
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I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.
Likewise:
Flying Cars
3D TV
Fusion Power
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http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/02/25/1929244 [slashdot.org]
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I had replied to another post some days ago and was criticised about it not being "ready" for cinema viewing (people looking from multiple angles), but I was referring to personal viewing at home.
no glasses, no fuss, it just works...
flying cars are also already here (and am not talking about the one with the parachute-thing on it...), but they are simply too difficult to "drive", when your average joe-six-speeds can barely pass a test for 2D roads
not qualified to speak abo
Re:These are still vapor (Score:5, Funny)
NOTHING can be in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever. In Vegas the odds would be better of Elvis riding towards Caesars Palace on a Unicorn, on a rainbow, with a horde of screaming Leprechauns chasing after him pissed because he stole the pot of gold. Ohhh, and Elvis would have TITS. Big Ones.
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Fine. I meant big huge boobies like Dolly Parton or Jessica Love Hewitt. Not man-titties. Something with cleavage.
I have yet to see a man with man-titties so big he could make cleavage, and I fervently hope I never do.
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"Hail to the king, baby!"
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He ate all their bacon and peanut butter and banana sandwiches, too.
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Damn it! You've given away the whole plot of the game!
Now they're going to have to start all over again. I hope you're happy!
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http://anotherrandomday.com/?id=535 [anotherrandomday.com]
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We have been hearing about fuel cells "just around the corner" for a freakin' decade now. I think you can put them in the same corner as Duke Nukem Forever and that Holographic Storage thing that keeps popping up on Slashdot.
SirWired
Nah. At least there's a trailer for Duke Nukem Forever.
At this point, I'm putting more faith in that game than fuel cells.
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I saw the green bike pictured here [alternativ...-news.info] at an electric bike event in Wales last year but more people were interested in the normal battery bikes because they could buy one there and then if they wanted (and some did).
I would love an electric bike that could do up to 100km on a single charge/refill but the (un)availability & price right doen't make it feasable. Hopefully when I've run my
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Strange... (Score:1)
Big Bang Theory (Score:4, Funny)
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That's not funny. Do you really think we could even get these things onto planes?
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So that's why it includes a conventional Li-Ion battery inside as well.
So it can both explode and catch fire.. (Score:2, Funny)
From the article:
> The system contains both a methanol fuel cell and a Li-on battery
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The downside... (Score:3, Funny)
The only downside is that since it's from Sony, it installs a rootkit on your cellphone that keeps you from copying pictures you take on it to your computer...
(Yes, I'm still holding that grudge. Such is the PR price a company pays for being so mind-numbingly stupid.)
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The only downside is that since it's from Sony, it installs a rootkit on your cellphone that keeps you from copying pictures you take on it to your computer...
I believe that Verizon Wireless already has prior art [engadget.com] on that one ;)
Re:The downside... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your not the only one holding that grudge. Just like you I bring it up every single time I can. I'll release my grudge when some Sony executives go to prison.
I also object to the word stupidity. I honestly believe it was downright maliciousness and their actions were not without intelligence. They knew exactly what they were doing and thought they had the rights to do it. That was not stupid. It was evil. Calling them stupid makes them out to be fools and somehow deserving of our compassion for just being simple idiots.
In EVERY other single case of a rootkit being installed on consumers systems without their knowledge, there WOULD be a criminal court case. Sony does it.... nothing.
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I still don't buy it. I think the execs at Sony did have knowledge of what they were doing. In any case, I hope we can at least agree that *somebody* needed to go to prison here. If you are right and Sony execs were just ignorant of what their underlings brought them as an option, then fine. I want the person that knew what a rootkit was, what it did to the systems, to go to prison.
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The real evil are the individuals who made the technology and sold it to Sony. They knew what it was going to do.
or maybe the people who sold the technology to Sony knew exactly what they were doing, and specifically designed it that way because they wanted a worldwide backlash against DRM? ...see, I can make unsubstantiated claims too.
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A rootkit is the very definition of "gaining access to a computer system without authorization."
They quite literally hacked into their customers' computers without their knowledge. How is that not criminal?
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You're absolutely right, I stand corrected.
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I'm holding that grudge, too. The first thought that came in my mind whan I saw this story was "too bad it's Sony". I'll settle for a non-Sony battery that needs charging every day over a Sony battery that only needs charging once a year, because I refuse to let Sony have another penny of my money.
In EVERY other single case of a rootkit being installed on consumers systems without their knowledge, there WOULD be a criminal court case. Sony does it.... nothing.
If I did to one of Sony's computers what they di
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The enemy here is not Sony. Its corporations in general, but in particular the ones that are scared to death by the internet and our ability to copy bits.
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Its funny you should mention it, since most new SonyEricsson (arguably more Ericsson, than Sony), are known in the field for being pretty good in terms of media transfers.
Back in the day (pre-SonyEricsson) they used standard Defined file formats (jpg, gif, wbmp, amf, midi, ims) for their media formats and allowed transfer two and from via simple IrDA, or OBEX on Bluetooth devices. Even their "themes" were basically a defined colletions of gifs/png with a XML descriptor, in a tar file renamed to .thm.
This co
Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... (Score:5, Informative)
Ethanol is a less toxic and less reactive to metals (and much safer) alcohol to use. https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/89308.htm [fishersci.com]
From another methanol MSDS: "Releases flammable vapors below ambient temperatures. When mixed with air and exposed to ignition source, vapors can burn in open or explode if confined. Mixtures with water and as little as 21% (by vol.) methanol are still flammable (flash point less than 104F). Under some circumstances, may corrode certain metals, including aluminum and zinc and generate hydrogen gas. A methanol fire may not be visible to the naked eye."
Aren't many laptops made of aluminum and zinc and magnesium? What happens when the lithium battery decides to cook off? Hummmm?
(In any case, I am sure the TSA will let us all board planes with our alcohol-fueled laptops.)
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It's possible that they don't use ethanol for the same reason the 85% is as high as ethanol for cars is allowed to go. That being there are people stupid enough to try to drink it and you might actually have to limit it's sale as alcohol unless you could show that it is nearly impossible to access it.
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If the ethanol they sold at the pump was 100% pure, you could call it moonshine and be completely accurate. GP is absolutely right. You can do the googling for yourself.
Adding the methanol removes the need for a gas station to purchase a liquor license.
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you can make ethanol non-drinkable (and toxic) by adding a bit of methanol. It's called denatured alcohol. 100 percent ethanol is used as a fuel in many applications. I've used both methanol and ethanol for fueling my backpacking stoves. Ethanol has a slightly higher energy density (more joules per gram); methanol is slightly more volatile (ignites more easily). Ethanol has the edge for camping in the backcountry because I can mix it with lemonade packets for a cocktail. Methanol would make me vomit (or die
Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... (Score:4, Insightful)
Ethanol always has methanol in it. In the presence of ethanol, methanol is not toxic because the ethanol prevents it from being converted into formaldehyde. The treatment for methanol poisoning is an ethanol drip.
Methanol is used because ethanol fuel cells don't exist technologically yet. Methanol is a much simpler molecule.
Methanol is more toxic than gasoline in the sense that methanol has a very low vapor pressure and so if there were a spill in an enclosed area, you would breathe in a good amount of it, which could cause blindness.
Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... (Score:4, Informative)
Sorry, apparently my first paragraph is based on an urban legend, not facts. Ethanol does usually have a very tiny amount of methanol in it, and ethanol will compete for the alcohol dehydrogenase that will make the methanol toxic, but ethanol is not sufficient treatment by itself to make the methanol safe.
I think. I'm not totally sure I trust wikipedia more than the postdocs in my lab. Meh. Better safe than sorry though.
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Um, they limit it to 85% because if it's higher than that, most gasoline internal combustion engines will not be able to ignite it. In many cars, it's limited to 10% because the O-rings will degrade in the presence of ethanol.
Further, getting ethanol higher than 90% is extremely expensive and typically requires adding toxic chemicals such as benzene. ...
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Further, getting ethanol higher than 90% is extremely expensive and typically requires adding toxic chemicals such as benzene. .
Huh? I can buy a 750ml bottle of Everclear [wikipedia.org] for $20. It's 95% ethanol and given that it's intended for consumption I'm guessing they didn't add any toxic chemicals to it.
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$27/L is pretty expensive for a fuel with about the same energy content as gasoline.
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Thank you rcw-home, yes, I meant 190 proof, not 90%.
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Re:Methanol is toxic and reacts with metals... (Score:5, Informative)
(I study this for a living.)
Methanol is better because there aren't any carbon-carbon bonds to cleave. This makes it easier to find catalysts that will functionally convert it into CO2 and H+ ions. Smaller molecules are just generally simpler to work with.
In the end, methanol based fuel cells exist. Ethanol based fuel cells don't. I'm working on it, but it'll be a while =)
As far as safety, methanol is mostly dangerous because if it is ingested or inhaled, it will be converted into formaldehyde in the body and cause blindness. Methanol is not particularly more corrosive than ethanol/water, and while it has a lower vapor pressure than ethanol, the quantity of methanol present in a battery form factor is likely to be far too small to produce a serious hazard.
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How do you guys work on such stuff?
Is it based on "hunches" that certain materials might work in some scenarios, and then you go through the combinations?
While you're at it, how about a fuelcell that runs on hydrocarbons? After all, an efficient way to store hydrogen is around carbon chains
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I used to work on SOFC (Solid Oxide Fuel Cells) which, unlike methanol and hydrogen fuel cells, operate at high temperature - at least several hundred degrees. On of the benefits of working at high temperatures was a much wide choice of fuel supplies and better ion mobility. In theory SOFCs should be able to run of virtually any hydrocarbon that can be got into the vapour phase at the given operating temperature, in reality I think we would probably be limited to simpler molecules though. Another benefit of
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Would aerogel insulation help maintain the temperatures enough, so that the restart times can be significantly shortened?
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SOFC's currently run at about 900 to 1000 deg C which is pretty hostile to the equipment (I was working on lowering the temperature to around 700 deg C). When building a SOFC most of the cost is in building a system that can handle these temperatures not the materials they are made from - although they aren't cheap.
In other words it doesn't cost twice as much to build a system twice as large (within reason). When you build a system you want to get as much bang for your buck as you can so you build it big. T
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Aerogels can provide good insulation and they should be able to tolerate 1000C (melting point = 1200C).
Trouble is the heat will probably leak out via the rest of the stuff in the system (unless there's some clever way to stop that).
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Basically, you're exactly right. You read through the literature to see if anyone else has found something that "sort of" works, try to guess why it works at all, and then try to come up with ways to make it more than "sort of" work.
Most of the time, my thought process goes something like this:
1. It sure would be nice if we could use ethanol in a fuel cell.
2. Hey, that's great, Dr. Booringhouse found a catalyst that let him use ethanol in a fuel cell, but it's not very efficient.
3. Hmm, it's supported on ce
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Hey, someone who might be able to answer this... My question is how do you think the waste heat from the fuel cell reaction will affect the life and performance of the Li-poly battery? I'm not all that up on battery tech, but I was under the strong impression that heat is always bad for batteries, i.e. heat causes material degradation, reduces battery functionality over time, messes with chemical kenetics, and increases electron leakage due to the higher amount of energy around. Isn't that why there are lim
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Great.
You can be sure that if they could make an ethanol-based fuel cell, they would. There's a good reason their engineers choose the materials that they use. It's easy to say that there are better ones. Getting them to work, not so much.
LiIO + fuel cell (Score:2)
so this could potentially be a battery that recharges itself? That's got a really high Geek Factor (TM)
A Cell prototype? :) (Score:1)
Can't fly with it (Score:3, Informative)
Methanol makes a fine carrier for hydrogen. Too bad it's also used in lighter fluid, as in charcoal grill lighter fluid. In the picture, you can see the little tank in the cell that contains the methanol. It's pretty. Very stylish. And guaranteed to make Homeland Security put you in a small room for several hours.
Ok, so you never take it on an airplane. I know! Let's take it to school! 'cause kids listen to MP3s a whole lot on the school bus and wandering around between classes and during class (even though they're not supposed to). "Student expelled for bringing flammable materials^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H a BOMB to school" - headline coming to a slashdot near you. "'It's just my MP3 player!' says student, now permanently on a Homeland Security watchlist."
Ok, so you can never take it to school. I know! Let's use it at home! 'cause surely we can listen to our MP3s in the safety of our own bedrooms. "Rash of house fires sweeps nation" - headline coming to a slashdot near you. "Fire marshals report MP3 players dropped and broken when stepped on is soaking carpets in alcohol and igniting by their own shattered electronics."
Yes, hydrogen is a slippery element. Yes, it's hard to contain it. Yes, it'd be nice if portable electronics had better batteries. No, I don't think a methanol fuel cell is going to solve the problem...
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Once enough people want it, especially business people who want to use their laptops on longer flights. Then the airlines push back, and usually get their way. At the end of the day, you can't cost the airlines too much money up front.
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Your car analogy fails. Yes, they do run around crashing into each other causing explosions everywhere. 40,000 automotive fatalities in the US every single year. So sure, we can use methanol fuel cells in our MP3 players. Just as long as you promise not to say one goddamn word when the body count starts rising. Oh, and guarantee that soccer moms won't say one goddamn word either. You want to use dangerous technology, you accept the consequences. But guess what. The USA isn't so good at accepting con
OLD/Dupe...The Onion already had this story (Score:5, Funny)
Sony Releases New Stupid Piece of Shit That Doesn't Fucking Work
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/sony_releases_new_stupid_piece_of [theonion.com]
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Thank You. I Fucking Needed That.
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But I hear that the fuel cell blows up (Score:2)
whenever you try to use it to power your PC to run BitTorrent.
That's actually not very good... (Score:3, Insightful)
...Considering most recent cell phone batteries will already last 3-4 days. And does it have enough current capacity to RUN the cell phone, replacing the current battery?
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3-4 days?
Do you keep your phone switched off?
I would love a fuel cell which can power my phone for a full year.
I will pay good money to forget the stupid charger.
And i would love a fuel cell for my iBook G4.
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Hmmm.. surprising.
My LG KU990 gives me 2 days max with Bluetooth off. And hell it is a 3700mAh battery. I guess since its Flash-based, it sucks battery.
What about the iPhone users in this forum?
How much time do you guys get?
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For example, my office happens to be partially underground and surrounded by a lot of concrete, so I get terrible signal at my desk. Using the phone's browser (to read sites blocked by my employer) a lot, or using the IM application, will drain the batter in 5-6 hours.
The same activities when sitting in my car waiting for my wife to leave work use MUCH less battery, because that happens to see me
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Sorry for the inconvenience (Score:1)
need coffee...
But... (Score:1)
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Availability? You can buy Coke in the jungles of Peru.
I think he meant the soda.
8-)
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Ah, but Jolt Cola [joltenergy.com] already comes in cans shaped like batteries!