Brand Names Take On Generics In PSU Showdown 223
The Raindog writes "The power supply is perhaps the most overlooked element of a modern PC, and yet it's the one component that can irreparably damage the rest of a system. The market is littered with generic PSUs that are often much cheaper than name-brand alternatives, but can you trust them? The Tech Report aims to find out in its latest power supply round-up, which compares the performance, efficiency, and noise levels of a collection of reputable PSUs with some budget, no-name competition. As it turns out, any money you save on a generic PSU purchase will likely cost you more in the long run."
Also check your UPS (Score:5, Informative)
And before you think that all your PSUs are failing because you bought them on the cheap, you should also check your UPS. I had 13 PSUs die at Suso and thought it was just horrible luck with power supplies, until I realized that the 5 year old UPS that those servers were on was having issues. Since I replaced it, haven't had any problems since. *knock* *knock*
Re:Also check your UPS (Score:5, Insightful)
Plug in a Kill-A-Watt. $24.99 on Amazon. [amazon.com] It'll tell you your line voltage (with or without load), power consumption, and energy usage for the duration it's plugged in. If nothing else, you can figure out where your electricity is going, how much energy your computer(s) is/are using, and how well your UPS is living up to its promises (unplug it and watch its performance).
I don't work for them or anything, it's just a good way to see what your UPS is up to and learn a little about your household energy usage.
Of course, if your problem really is your PSU rather than your UPS, all this unit does is narrow down the problem rather than solve it... Still, I consider it worth my $25.
Re:Also check your UPS (Score:4, Interesting)
It will even transfer the measurements to a SD card. It comes with a English text. manual. Continental Europe socket.
Voltcraft ENERGY LOGGER 3500 [conrad.nl]
If you search for this stuff in amazon.de you will find one that claims to have ranked 2nd in a German magazine testing of energy measuring devices. This is the new version of the one who got first.
I have no relation to this shop, or manufacturer, I just love the gadget.
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De link werkt niet voor anderen omdat deze afhankelijk is van je sessie-cookie. Als je aan de rechterkant van het artikelinfo schermpje kijkt zou je daar als het goed is een boxje hebben moeten staan met "directe produkt link". Die doet het altijd.
Anyway, we now return you to your scheduled programme.
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ENERGY LOGGER 3500 [conrad.nl]
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I got mine in LIDL. Wait for them to come around again...
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It looks like most UPSes make systems *less* reliable on balance. How frequent is a power failure compared to a UPS failure?
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It looks like most UPSes make systems *less* reliable on balance.
that seems to be true. I had an el cheapo UPS that wasn't very stable. at times, shit hooked up to it just froze. then I sprung for a nice rackable MGE which has been running like a champ for 8 months now. no more freezes.
How frequent is a power failure compared to a UPS failure?
my logs tell me theres about 2-4 minutes of power loss every few months. and I had an UPS last for about 4 years before it croaked. YMMV.
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Dual power supplies are your friend. 1 plug goes to the UPS, the other to an independent UPS or the wall. That said, UPS failures are rare if you perform regular maintenance (AKA replace batteries etc BEFORE they fail on you). I suppose it depends a lot on the individual area, but in an are alike mine where severe thunderstorms are common, power outages happen a couple times a year minimum, vs UPS failure that are very rare. Not to mention, you get what you pay for. Office Supply store brand UPS are not g
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Did your system really go down every few days before you got the UPS? I'd say the manufacturer's logging software has an incentive to over-report how many times it has 'saved your system'. A faulty UPS unit that switched to battery several times a day even though it didn't need to would 'save your system' even more!
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I don't know about "software" but the management cards you can put in to the higher end units don't lie. It actually doesn't catch power bumps under a second; only after 2 or 3 seconds. I have and older SmartUPS 700 on my computer because the power quality at home is horrible - the lights regularly go bright/dim several times a day - and it'll switch to battery briefly, but it's not in the event log unless it's over a second. If I didn't have the UPS, I'd probably be in a fit of range from daily power inter
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Re:Also check your UPS (Score:5, Funny)
One of the more ironic examples:
The truck delivering a new UPS unit to a Danish ISP accidentally hit the electric installation on the street outside the server center and cut off the power supply to the server center.
Of course, the old UPS was disconnected at that time to make room for the new unit.
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A good, solid UPS is very reliable as long as you keep it maintained. The major issue is keeping the batteries good, not continually exposing them to deep discharges, etc.
Actually, the UPS in question had just recently had its battery pack replaced. And this was an APC 1400VA rack mount UPS, nothing cheap. I know another sysadmin that said he had the same problem once as well. So apparently something else very critical can fail inside UPSes besides the battery.
For more information, this is in a data center with diesel generator that kicks in after 30 seconds, so the UPSes generally only see 30 seconds of action maybe once a month.
In other news... (Score:2)
Buying cheap crap that's pumping out power to sensitive electronics can damage the things it's connected to can make things go horribly wrong!
In other news, your computer is not a good thing to use as a coffee table, puppies should not be left unsupervised near cabling, and you should not leave your cell phone in your pocket while washing your clothing.
Is this surprising anyone?
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Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Another important thing (Score:2)
Is better capacitors. Good PSUs use higher quality ones, and often ones with a higher thermal rating. This is important since electrolytic capacitors degrade over time. If you have crappy ones, they can degrade faster. At some point, their performance drops to the point where the PSU doesn't work right or at all. Good caps are well worthwhile in a power system.
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The main things you'll see in a high end PSU:
1) Voltage stabilizing in case the power coming to the PSU is not very good
2) Quieter fans
3) Output voltage/watts and efficiency stay within reason at higher load
4) Some generic heat up quite a bit.
Don't forget power factor correction (PFC). Especially in a datacenter.
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Electrolytic capacitors are one obvious place cost can be cut.
There are a couple of topologies [st.com] that are applicable. Most computer powersuuplies are (I think) single-switch forward converters. The topologies with more switches provide better performance, but more switches means more expensive transistors.
Higher frequency switching generally provides more stable output, but requires "faster" transistors and transistor drivers, which again, are more expensive than "slower" ones.
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I don't know.
But I do know that 2 of my eMachines had bad power supplies - they died after just 1.5 years. The first time was no big deal, but the second time damaged my hard drive causing me to lose all my nudist beach pho..... er, data.
The $100 replacement supply has lasted 4 years so far with no sign of quitting.
Re:In other news... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a partial list:
I've seen companies use components rated at or just below their stated current rating in order to save money (using 8 amp transistors in a 10 amp supply, for example). They'll often work right out of the box, but, since there's no margin built in they will run hot and eventually fail. As to component quality, take it from someone who designs and manufactures precision instrumentation, I can tell you that there can be an enormous difference in quality from one manufacturer to another. "considering all the parts are mass manufactured, anyway" is not a valid argument.
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I'm more worried about crowbar input. That damn PFY just came around talking about "forced upgrades".
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I've only built a few computers, so I may not be as experienced as you, but here's how I approached the quality issue on a parts by part basis:
"What is the worst that can happen?"
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Funny.
I've been "doing" computers since the early 90s. I've never had much problem with power supplies. And I do mean *never*.
I took an ancient, generic 286 computer, and upgraded it through 386SX, 486 DX/2, Cx 6x86, and AMD Athlon motherboards before finally switching to ATX. It was a cheezy, god-only-knows-who-made it power supply that came from a 'not-quite-aluminum-foil' AT case.
And I've done plenty of computers since. I've *always* bought the cheapest, craptastic cases and power supplies, and generally
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The thing is my above observation means absolutely nothing as the sample is far to small to be of any statistical significance. I expect the same is true for your experience with PSUs. If someone has done testing on a reasonable scale, in monitored condition then it would be of real use to peopl
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In my case I'm overclocking everything. I kick more power through all of my components than is technically safe, to get the most out of it.
Which is why I use a nicer PSU
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I've been "doing" computers since the early 90s. I've never had much problem with power supplies. And I do mean *never*.
Give it time. It's possible that you'll never experience problems with a cheap PSU, but likely that you will.
My personal experience: I've been "doing" computers for a bit longer than you have, and the only components I've had fail on me (so far) were: ultra cheap motherboard (two of them, the same brand and model, both died within a year), and ultra cheap PSU (three of them, various brands). The difference between the dead motherboards and the dead PSUs was that when the PSUs died, they took the hard drive
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Lots of problems with this statement:
What does HP use??? (Score:2, Interesting)
I have owned several HP/Compaq machines and NEVER have lost a PSU. And all of the ones I have built myself with parts (Antec) have had a PSU fail multiple times...
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I have had two PSUs fail on me. One was in an expensive Dell workstation and it exploded overnight, leaving a very interesting smell. The other was an Antec provided with a case, and it just stopped working for no reason. I didn't think PSUs could suck so badly, but I've learned my lesson.
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I've always bought whatever was cheapest for the wattage I needed and have never had a PSU fail or a PC fail as a result of anything I can really guess was power related (Well, I suppose technically, it's impossible to know but hard drive failures for example when they don't die outright i.e. crashing heads seem unlikely to be power related).
The only exceptions where I have spent a bit more on a PSU I've found they offered me no notable advantage other than that described (quieter, more cables maybe). Payin
Re:What does HP use??? (Score:5, Interesting)
We've had the opposite experience of HP power supplies, we just had to replace 70 HP supplies. When machines started failing in the field, I found that there was massive amounts of ripple on the 12v and 5v lines. When I disassembled the PSU it wasn't hard to tell why - bulging and leaking capacitors.
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You had to replace 70 PSUs at the same time or rather short amount of time to one replacement after another? If so I would look into the UPS those systems were using (if one or so many was used) or have the power feed checked coming off the outlets you're using because that's just a damn near impossability to have so many PSUs die at once or you've had one really horrible batch.
I've gotta agree. (Score:5, Funny)
These days, you can't really be sure (Score:3, Interesting)
...As it turns out, any money you save on a generic PSU purchase will likely cost you more in the long run..."
To such statements, I say "Ohh puhleeze!" I use generic power supplies for all my PCs, which I never switch off by the way. Apart from increased noise after about 3 years of constant humming, I have no complaints for a product that costs me about 18 dollars.
I heard Google uses the same stuff too.
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Your experience is clearly different to mine, since I have replaced many generic power supplies that had failed. Some of those failed power supplies also took out the motherboards they were attached to.
Re:These days, you can't really be sure (Score:4, Insightful)
Google may use cheap shit, but they can do so because their reliability comes in the form of redundancy. When you have a lot of systems, you can set them up so that no one failure has any real impact on your service. It's like a RAID-5 array. The disks themselves may not be that reliable but the overall array is because if one fails, you lose nothing you just replace it. Likewise a RAID-6 is more reliable since two can fail, and so on.
However, people at home don't have that luxury. I have one main computer. If it fails, I'm SOL until I get replacement parts. If a bad PSU takes out other components, I'm more screwed. So I have to go through reliability of the components themselves, get better components so they fail less often.
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I heard Google uses the same stuff too.
With the risk of sounding cliche, I'd like a citation for that.
To such statements, I say "Ohh puhleeze!" I use generic power supplies for all my PCs, which I never switch off by the way. Apart from increased noise after about 3 years of constant humming, I have no complaints for a product that costs me about 18 dollars.
Generic PSU's do not undergo the same rigorous testing that "brand" name ones do. You might get a good batch. You might not. PSU's that a company is willing to put their brand name against perform consistantly. The voltage stays within a given spec. The load and wattage stays within a spec. A "spec". Yes, the better PSU's have specs that they adhere to. Not to mention the often better cable management which can lead to overall cooler systems.
No surprise at all (Score:3, Informative)
There aren't very many factories that actually make PSUs. You'll find that a great many PSUs share designs. So you can have cheapies that look like brand name PSUs. Ok so what's the money difference? Parts quality. The company making generics says "Ya give me the cheapest caps, fan controls, etc. I need lowest cost no matter what." The good brands say "Give us higher temperature parts, better quality, etc." Just because they look the same, doesn't mean they are built ot the same standard.
The difference between good and crap in electronics can often be as simple as the parts used. However, good parts cost more money so you are going to pay more for the finished product.
Personally, I'm a Corsair fanboy. They seem to spec really high grade electronics in to their powersupplies and those things do a great job.
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But all, for me, have never had issues. I've had some crappy PSUs in pre-built machines just die on me and when I'm spending $2000+ on a high-end system, I'm not going to save $40 on a cheap PSU. I'll spend the $100-$150 on a good PSU. I know it's worth it.
Check for UL approval (Score:5, Informative)
They should have checked each power supply for a UL marking, and an entry in the UL Certification Database. [ul.com] Things seem to be getting better, though; the power supplies tested did not blow up or catch fire at full load. That's a big improvement from a few years ago.
The basic UL requirements are 1) no overload problems at full load, 2) no explosion or fire under output overload/short conditions, and 3) no single component failure can cause a fire (i.e. there should be a fuse of some kind in there.) It's permitted for an overloaded unit to fail and never work again; that's not a safety issue. Some no-name power supplies had real problems meeting those basic conditions.
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I can't tell, is that one in with all the other fancy logos on the side of This [jonnyguru.com] Allied branded Deer PSU that exploded when jonnyguru tested it?
No, it isn't UL approved (Score:3, Informative)
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Well, all things considered I'm pretty sure that it being prone to failure by means of exploding makes it undesirable regardless of it's status elsewise.
Not necessarily (Score:2)
This PSU could be perfectly safe mounted in the top of a steel PC chassis, but dangerous in a plastic chassis. That's why it shou
Though not in EU, of course (Score:4, Interesting)
I think most problems would be with older equipment made in the days when both the US and the EU countries were trying to make inroads in the Chinese suppliers. For a time the certification bodies seemed to go a little crazy and let the Chinese get away with murder because they all wanted to be the primary Chinese certification body. One of the best incidents I remember was an auditor going around a Chinese plant with ISO 9002 certification. All the documentation was there, all the procedures written up. In English. And no-one in the entire factory spoke English. I doubt this is the case with electricals any more.
Overlooked (Score:2, Insightful)
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Judging by the number of online reviews and by the 560 (!) power supplies available at Newegg,
They just overlooked those.
Hmmm.. (Score:2)
If you have any interest (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree on all but one ... (Score:2)
The pizza box works sometimes. I've got a dump here of mainboards, graphics cards and other stuff; they didn't die on the pizzabox but before.
My three holy rules:
Had a few times a bad PG e
Spotting a winner. (Score:3, Insightful)
"We've narrowed our focus on PSUs in the 350-500W range, which should be enough power for most budget and mid-range systems."
This isn't quite true. The more important question is the amps on the +12V Rails? Even better if yours has a monorail design were all the power-hungry parts can get what they need. Also sustained rating is important. Not peak. And last even the better brands can be/go bad. My PC Power & Cooling 750 silencer was recieved DOA. It happens even to the best...much like hard drives.
My two cents... (Score:2)
So, uh, go Duro...
No PC Power and Cooling? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Sadly, PC Power & Cooling is no longer an independent company, but was bought by OCZ last year. I'm not sure how this might affect quality in the future, but I still buy PC P&C PSUs for now.
no sparks (Score:2)
After several bad experiences, even with UPSs, I have adopted the superstition of avoiding power supplies made by companies with "spark" in their names. Since this decision several years ago, the worst failure I've suffered is a drive that spewed SMART warnings for months -- but kept working -- until I finally RMAd it.
Check for country of origin (Score:4, Interesting)
(OT) don't worry about Indian medicines (Score:2)
Wow. What do you people do to your PSUs ? (Score:3)
After ~20 years in the industry, through thousands (probably tens of thousands) of PCs - everything from no-name dsektops to high-end IBM blade servers, I think I've witnessed (or received direct reports of) 3 or 4 PSU failures ever.
Heck, if someone asked me to rank the components most likely to fail in a computer, the PSU would probably be sitting just above screw holes and mounting posts.
WTF are you people doing to your computers ? Is the power supply in Australia really that much better than the rest of the world ?
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I've also been working on computers for about 20 years, and I agree with you. For PCs, I've only ever seen one or two PSU failures, and in the enterprise world, I had 3 of 12 PSUs fail in a big Sun rack. None of my personal machines have ever had a PSU failure.
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It probably depends on the quality of your powergrid, too.
I've heard the american grid, on average, delivers much more fragile and "dirty" electrons than, for example, the european grid.
I guess it makes a difference whether your PSU has to deal with spikes and brownouts on a daily/weekly basis or whether it's just humming along on nominal line voltage.
Nexus (Score:2)
Suggestions on no "power hum"? (Score:2)
Is there a recommended brand/model of PSU that emits no/little/minimal RF interference for clean audio? I'd love a power supply I can't hear(fan), but also can't hear in my system's audio output or recording. Surely there's some better PSU that has the modular power cables(oh that is nice).
First real PSU reviev i've seen (Score:2)
kudos to the site for actually going to the trouble of building a test rig that can actaully load down PSUs in controlled increments.
Re:Antec is the worst (Score:4, Informative)
Oh, and the Antec PSU in my personal machine died one day, possibly because it was plugged into an 11-year-old surge protector. I got a free replacement (minus shipping), and the replacement is a nicer unit and handles more power.
Say what you will, but their service is nothing to complain about.
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It sure is interesting that they chose to test the only antec psu that doesnt have a pci-e connector. The 380W and 420W earthwatts have one, and the 500w basiq has one.
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I use Antec or Thermaltake, both are great. I don't know what GP is crying about.
Yet another case of "I got a defective unit, noone should buy this product" crap. Get warranty, if they keep failing, then start posting on slashdot with the facts, not "it's bad, buy what I've been told is good".
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Uhm. Maybe they're knock-off PSUs just labelled Antec. Seriously, I've never had an issue with antec supplies. I get nesteq or zalman ones now because of quiet-pc-addiction, but never had an issue with antec.
Nope, GP is correct. Antec puts out a lot of crap power supplies. I've had similar experiences with them myself, and will never buy another PSU from them.
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Re:Antec is the worst (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Antec is the worst (Score:5, Informative)
silentpcreview.com nicely complements jonnyguru (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, I agree that jonnyguru.com is the best review source for PSU stability (noise and transients are measured with oscilloscope and compared with ATX specs) and build quality (inside pics and commentary on components used). If you additionally care about the noise your PSU is making at various loads, silentpcreview.com has those measurements. I bought a couple of power supplies based on the review on to those two sites, and never had issues stability or noise wise.
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I wonder who made their Smartpower range? I had one of those fail last year, I took it appart to see if it was just the internal fuse that had blown. What I found inside was one of the worst examples of electronics manufacture I have ever seen. (I worked in this area for 17 years).
The live and neutral mains wiring got reversed by the time it was connected to the pcb so the neutral was fused and the soldering on the underside of the pcb looked like it was done with a red hot poker. The cable looms were like
AngryTec is the worst. (Score:4, Insightful)
"You can hide a multitude of sins behind one of those "Warranty void if broken" paper seals. ;)"
Slashdot has one of those.
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Hahaha, seriously? I was about to come in swinging since I've never had an Antec fail on me or any of my end users... but I only install Earthwatts series.
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Except, of course, for the Antec EarthWatts. And the TruePower series. Both of which are... made by Seasonic.
Not entirely true.
The older EarthWatts were made by Seasonic, the newer ones are made by Delta.
Source: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=110 [jonnyguru.com]
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Except, of course, for the Antec EarthWatts. And the TruePower series. Both of which are... made by Seasonic.
Not entirely true.
The older EarthWatts were made by Seasonic, the newer ones are made by Delta.
Source: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=110 [jonnyguru.com]
Argh. I've got nothing against Delta (don't know much about them), but I think the "EarthWatts" model name earned its good reputation by using Seasonic. It's like when LCD models change panel suppliers (and sometimes panel technology), but keep the same model name.
For decent value-priced PSUs, I guess I'll just go with OEM models from Seasonic and FSP Group, which are made by... Seasonic and FSP Group.
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Yea, I only buy Seasonic and you're right, EarthWatts have their good reputation because they were made by Seasonic.
I bought an Antec NSK 4480, which comes with one, and am happy with it.
The case, on the other hand, is..well, it was considerably cheaper (150EUR at the time) than an Antec P182 + a Seasonic PSU.
Once had a bequiet! which was neither quiet nor any good, so I don't trust them anymore.
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I don't know what they're power supplies are like, but their cases are excellent.
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Agreed. I stick with SeaSonic. Good combination of quiet and reliable.
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All the Antecs I use are Seasonics.
Re:Antec is the worst (Score:4, Interesting)
Right. Bose is one of the best brands of speakers, and neon lights make your computer go faster. Sorry, but Antec is all marketing and no quality. All the ricer overclockers want to believe that Antec PSUs make their computers +0.2% faster, but the truth is, Antec uses some of the lowest quality parts in their PSUs and if you check something like badcaps.net, you'll realize that Antec is one of the most commonly reported brands in the PSU category, and most widely complained about brand in the forums.
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Granted, they might have been vastly underrated for upgrades, but still, two machines! That has to be, like, common?
The big OEMs have some shitty PSUs, second highest failure rate (after the system boards) when I was at Dell.
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Nobody panic, it's just a pumpkin this time.
isn't the golden egg either! (Score:2)
I've had 2 SilentPSU's from Yesico before, they were "ok" but not perfect at all.
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Wow. I think I could do a better solder job with a torch and 1/4" plumbers solder.