Apple Plans To Make Chips For Handhelds 154
Preedit writes "Apple plans to get into the business of designing microprocessors for handheld devices, according to legal papers that are part of a dispute between IBM and one of its top technology executives. IBM is suing Power chip expert Mark Papermaster for allegedly violating a non-compete agreement and accepting a job at Apple. In court papers, IBM claims Apple wants Papermaster 'to design microprocessors for incorporation in a variety of electronic devices, including handheld devices.' The suit, according to Infoweek, also notes that Apple earlier this year bought out P.A. Semi. IBM thinks it knows why."
Gosh and I wondered what they'd do with P.A. Semi (Score:5, Insightful)
When you buy a mobile chip designer [forbes.com] what else are you going to do with it?
Re:Gosh and I wondered what they'd do with P.A. Se (Score:5, Interesting)
Chip designing these days is like the child game you used to play called connecting the dots.
People use the term SoC(system on chip) to describe them. It's actually quite modular. Basically you can license a arm core or a mips core and put in all your other blocks(PCI, USB, ethernet) all on the same chip, so if Apple were to license the ppc architecture from IBM I'm sure IBM would be happy. I doubt thats what they are doing since the iPhone is based on ARM.
Not a lot of people design processors from scratch anymore.
Unless he designs the processor from scratch he's really not competing. I can't imagine apple doing something that stupid.
That article alludes to his experience with low power. He probably knows a few tricks on how to reduce power load. This is the expertise they are drawing from. He isn't competing with IBM; MIPS, ARM and intel is.
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There are several types of licenses one can buy from ARM. The most expensive type, the type Apple is rumored to have acquired, is an architectural license, which allows one to design ones own CPU core. Why would Apple buy this expensive of a license if all they were going to do was "connect-the-dots"?
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Re:Gosh and I wondered what they'd do with P.A. Se (Score:4, Informative)
Not quite true. A lot of companies still design microprocessors from scratch.
For example, look at Chinese Longsoon CPUs, nanochip, OpenCores, and so on. I also know that several CPUs are designed from scratch in Russia.
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Not quite true. A lot of companies still design microprocessors from scratch.
For example, look at Chinese Longsoon CPUs, nanochip, OpenCores, and so on. I also know that several CPUs are designed from scratch in Russia.
And I think the fact that none of the rest of us have ever heard of those chips/companies proves the GP's point. Interesting, though. Thanks for sharing.
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I think I qualify as 'one of the rest of us' here, and I've heard of them. A lot of chips that go into embedded devices don't get a ton of press.
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Well if you only look at "name brand" stuff advertised on tv, instead of the components that go into it :-)
Do you think your mouse runs by magic? No, it may well have an 8 bit CPU based on a *cut-down* 6502 (who needs a Y register after all...) by WinBond in it (or equivalent).
Admittedly the mighty ARM is all-conquering, but SunPlus group design their own chip which is (in various forms) in te
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if Apple were to license the ppc architecture from IBM ...
You do know that Apple was part of the AIM alliance [wikipedia.org] that created the ppc. I don't believe they need to license it from IBM.
Yeah, I do know that. And I'm wondering why Apple is acquiring all of this PPC expertise when they're using ARM processors in their handhelds, and Intel in their computers.
You have to wonder if PPC plays any role in their future product plans. I'm not sure I see the logic of acquiring all kinds of PPC expertise to build ARM processors....
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SoC?
Apple?
Handheld?
I'm seeing visions of PalmOS again (and Graffiti).
Re:Gosh and I wondered what they'd do with P.A. Se (Score:2)
When you buy a mobile chip designer [forbes.com] what else are you going to do with it?
The same you do when you buy a 3D graphics chips designer [architosh.com] - not much? The only thing we see coming out of it is a person: Bob Mansfield - Senior Vice President, Mac Hardware Engineering [apple.com]
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If you want to squirt your friends either get a Zune or buy a sex sling, but leave my Apple stuff alone.
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Apple is designing a dedicated chip to offload gayness from the CPU
Ha! Now I know what the "G" in "GPU" _really_ stands for.
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In the original post you were an obnoxious git, now you are pathetic. You really should have done that anonymously.
Where is Apple using Power chips currently? (Score:3, Informative)
Apple isn't using Power chips in any of its current computers, is it? The iPod and iPhone are ARM, and they're not making or shipping anything but x86-based Macs.
What am I missing?
Steve's plans for world domination? (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Steve's plans for world domination? (Score:5, Funny)
Steve's more like Henry Ford than Big Brother. Any color you want as long as you don't want page-up and page-down keys.
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Huh? My first Mac keyboard (not quite three years old) has page up and page down keys. Never noticed my MacBook doesn't have them because the two-finger-scroll is so easy. They're normally buried in "Fn" hell on PC notebooks anyway.
As for colors, what color do you want [apple.com]?
-Peter
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Fn-Arrow Up Fn-Arrow Down
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You're right! Now I'm going to forget that and just scroll with two-fingers. ;-)
-Peter
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I disabled two finger tap and two finger scroll on my macbook pro, and went with Sidetrack to give me a much less annoying virtual second button that doesn't keep getting accidentally misinterpreted as unwanted mouse pointer movements.
Yes, I'm sure my fingers are defective, but it's a lot cheaper to replace a driver than my fingers.
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Option-Arrow Up
Option-Arrow Down
That'll even work on full sized keyboards. :)
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Page Up and Page Down, on the right (vertical) column in a 3(horizontal) by 2 (vertical) bank toward the right side of my keyboard.
Right where they should be.
[][][]
[][][]
Yes.
[] []
| |[]
| |[]
No sale.
[Enter]
Yes.
[___|
[Enter|
No sale.
[Backspace]
Yes.
[<-]
No sale.
No standalone number pad, no sale.
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Your second design shown in ASCII art: what is that? Is that the form with an over-sized delete button right next to a page-up and page down pair, with the home and end keys on top?
Yes. I have a couple Logitech keyboards that are like that. It takes a while to get used to the different layout. It kind of makes sense, since the Insert key is probably never used by most people.
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Right.
It's the only keyboard layout I'll ever buy.
I'll accept some shitty media buttons that I'll never use as long as they're not in the way, don't add 5 pounds of ugly, and don't do stupid shit like put the system into standby if I accidentally hit it.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126012 [newegg.com] is what I currently use.
The volume controls on the top right rarely get touched. I'm a firm believer in a full signal from the system (as long as your sound card is decent), and volume controll
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That is honestly my prefered keyboard layout too, although I don't mind having media buttons. I will tolerate other keyboards, but there are some things I will not accept.
I will not accept Power management buttons that can be accidentally pressed. (The sleep button on my current keyboard is level with the plastic face, amking it hard to accidentally push. It is also at the extreme top right corner, in the area where the status lights would normally be. That works OK for me.)
I will not accept the Rotated L e
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As for other things, the indented Windows keys Microsoft now mandates (Since the release of Vista) should really be flat, although that is not a deal breaker.
What is this? .
The DELL keyboard I'm on right now (which I think it actually of a Logitech pedigree) has the windows key just like the alt key, excepts it's got a circular indentation with a raised windows logo in a circle. Similar to the top 2 here: http://static.flickr.com/36/113313821_90211ff7ec.jpg [flickr.com]
Is this what you're talking about? I don't like i
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Yes, that is what I was talking about. It is definately not a deal breaker by any stretch, but they key really ought to be flat. There is no good reason for the key to be other than flat. It's not like it actually gets used so frequently it needs an aid to be able to quickly find it with your little finger.
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More like scroll lock and SysRq, whatever the hell they're good for these days. Good riddance.
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Does anyone use the Menu key on a windows keyboard (right of the space bar). I use scroll lock on Linux and FreeBSD to lock the scroll on the console, on those rare occasions that I'm not in X.
Do we really need a print screen key, other than to have Windows use it as a hot key for some obscure functionality or OSX to use it as some sort of optional extra function key?
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Steve's more like Henry Ford than Big Brother.
So you're saying Steve Jobs is an antisemitic conspiracy theorist?
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Everyone did business with the Nazis. Germany was (and is today) an economic power. I assume that before the US entered the war most knew that the Nazis were a totalitarian regime, but is there is historic evidence that the general public knew what was going on in concentration camps. There is a big difference between imprisoning an ethnic group and torturing and murdering them (including children). I am skeptical that BMW, IBM, and hundreds of other major businesses were keyed in to what was going on until
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Maybe they want to move back?
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/23/1119241 [slashdot.org]
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That didn't stop them last time.
Actually, the last switch wasn't that bad. Yes there were problems, but considering the size of the effort..um.. I don't know how to finish this sentence.
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How about with "~"?
Re:Where is Apple using Power chips currently? (Score:4, Informative)
Nope. PowerPC is not coming back on the desktop anytime soon for Apple. The P.A. Semi purchase is about SoC likely built around ARM for small devices (aka iPhone).
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Nope. PowerPC is not coming back on the desktop anytime soon for Apple. The P.A. Semi purchase is about SoC likely built around ARM for small devices (aka iPhone).
That story was a lot more credible before they hired IBM's premier expert on Power. Why do they keep acquiring Power expertise if they want to build ARM processors? I'm not seeing the logic here....
Re:Where is Apple using Power chips currently? (Score:4, Interesting)
OS/X is portable. They are still supporting Power based Macs last time I checked.
The next IPod touch could be moved to power if they are low enough power.
The next AppleTV could use a Power CPU.
A netbook could use Power as well. That might be a big win for Apple since they wouldn't takeaway any sales from Macbooks.
Now I am just waiting for Apple to buy AMD and Foxconn :)
I think they have the cash on had for AMD for sure.
Re:Where is Apple using Power chips CURRENTLY? (Score:2)
But they're not using any now. You don't need *replace* chips you're not using anyway.
I think IBM's smart enough to be able to check the Apple store and notice the complete absence of any obviously Power PC based products, from iPod Shuffle up through the 8 core Xeon-based XServes. So who am I to doubt IBM's word that they're making and selling systems using Power PC? Clearly I'm doing a bad job in my search, and figured someone here could point me to the missing Powermac or Powerbook they're still shipping
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Note the past tense:
IBM also claims that Apple considered replacing the IBM Power chips used in some of its computers with chips made by P.A. Semi.
Apple was in talks with PA Semi long before they bought them and before they stopped making PPC computers. It was rumored that Apple was going to switch to their chips for their laptops but instead decided on Intel.
So IBM is more gullible than MacRumors? (Score:2)
So you're saying IBM claims they believe in a rumor that was proven false three years ago in a lawsuit filed today?
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AMD? not going to happen. Too hot, and as poor architecture for hand held devices that need a lot of cycles.
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AMD is going to roll out 45nm CPUs soon. A duel core 45nm version of their latest CPU would make a good laptop cpu.
Add in that there 780g gpu blows away what Intel offers.
Then throw in the ATI line so Apple can have access to the latest and greatest GPUs.
It might not be a bad buy for Apple.
But hay I don't write the checks.
The thing is if Apple did buy AMD and Foxconn they would have complete control from the ground up. I can see Jobs going for that idea.
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Calm down Francis. The conversation was about AMD v Power. It not AMD v. Intel
Laptop? we're talking about hand held devices.
AMD and ATI aren't doing so well. So buying them means your tied to them as they lose market share.
IF they were tiny, and moving Apple products would increase their sales, then yeah I could see that.
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OS/X is portable. They are still supporting Power based Macs last time I checked.
As I recall snow leopard or whatever the next version is called is dropping support for Power based Macs. If they were planning to switch back or support the chips on handhelds or something, why drop support on the G5s etc.
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Dropping support is not the same as not being portable.
Do they claim support for ARM? I don't think so but the iPhone uses one.
Power on the desktop? No I don't think so.
Power on the iPhone, iPod, and maybe a netbook?
That I can see. But we are all just guessing.
Unless I am right. Then I am brilliant and insightful.
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IIRC, the reason PowerPC was dropped was power consumption/heat on notebooks, so it probably wouldn't go in a laptop.
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Dropping support is not the same as not being portable.
I realize that.
Do they claim support for ARM? I don't think so but the iPhone uses one.
They don't have an officially supported ARM release they are dropping support for either.
Power on the desktop? No I don't think so.
They ALREADY have PowerPPC on the desktop / laptop, and its currently supported.
Power on the iPhone, iPod, and maybe a netbook?
Again, what would be the point of dropping support for the PowerPC if they were planning on using it in the near
Re:Where is Apple using Power chips currently? (Score:4, Insightful)
OS X ran on Intel the entire time it was in development. They didn't mention or release an Intel version until 10.4. I wouldn't put it past Apple Inc. to have an internal version of OS X for PPC, or anyother architecture, ready for the right moment.
Chip supply is a major weakness/obstacle for Apple. Smart business practice will have options should the current supplier have trouble with yields or other issues, not to mention forward looking technology ideas. Apple is not just smart about tech, they're smart about business. They won't risk their whole business on the fortunes of Intel. Let me repeat that, they won't risk their whole business on the fortunes of Intel. And t
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Now I am just waiting for Apple to buy AMD and Foxconn :)
I think they have the cash on had for AMD for sure.
Let 'em buy Foxconn, not like anybody likes that OEM shit.
But keep yer dirty hands off of AMD.
(Power on SFF devices by Apple would be nice. Even if it's just Apple TV and handhelds at first.)
But this is not a three year old lawsuit. (Score:2)
Hold on, this is what IBM has put in this lawsuit. This NEW lawsuit. This lawsuit started AFTER the whole Power PC transition was complete. I know what was rumored THREE YEARS AGO, but why is IBM referring to it NOW?
Good luck with that~ (Score:5, Informative)
non compete employment agreement are not viewed very favorably in California.
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/08/08/california-supreme-c-1.html [boingboing.net]
http://www.workforce.com/section/03/feature/25/82/12/index.html [workforce.com]
http://www.employlaw.com/noncompete.htm [employlaw.com]
Re:Good luck with that~ (Score:5, Informative)
Prolly why IBM is filing in NY.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/31/apple_ibm_chipper_lawsuit/ [theregister.co.uk]
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Prolly why IBM is filing in NY.
Wait, aren't we the California of the East Coast?
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haha, you wish!
Here is a quick check:
How many times during the summer can you see a women in a bikini? If walking behind her can you see the sides of her breasts?
Has it been warm enough to layout in your swim suit and tan in the last week?
I am of course talking about the real California, not those hippies in the middle or the tax leeches in the north~
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Oh, My bad.
Both are in CA, so I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Thanks.
Still, New York is a tough place to try and enforce non-competes as well.
non-compete == BS (Score:1)
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Why? If you spend 5 years at a company and learn 'the trade' on their dime they should be safe from you running to the next company and spilling everything they worked hard to make, at lest for a short time. It would be massively unfair for me to take your designs for "insert tech here" and run to "insert corp/country of choice" and beat you to market , or, very closely join you.
Re:non-compete == BS (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:non-compete == BS (Score:5, Insightful)
Stealing designs is already illegal in the first place. Non compete agreements prevent you from taking a similar job after your current job has been terminated, even if you have no intention to steal your former employer's trade secrets.
The real aim of non compete agreements is to lower your negotiation power. Take this salary cut, and no you can't go to the competition because of the non compete.
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that may be true in some cases, but given that "IBM offered to pay Mr. Papermaster one year's salary in exchange for Mr. Papermaster to respect his contractual obligation to refrain from working for an IBM competitor for one year," i don't think that's the case.
it seems to me like they just don't want to lose their trade secrets to their competitor. and in a hi-tech field like chip design, a year's lead on the competition would be very significant (or at the very least enough for the trade secrets held by a
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Re:non-compete == BS (Score:4, Insightful)
Why? If you spend 5 years at a company and learn 'the trade' on their dime they should be safe from you running to the next company and spilling everything they worked hard to make, at lest for a short time. It would be massively unfair for me to take your designs for "insert tech here" and run to "insert corp/country of choice" and beat you to market , or, very closely join you.
Yea..the keyword there is if. If you do that, then you should suffer the legal consequences (if there are any), but you shouldn't be punished simply because you could do that. In any event, treat your valued professionals like they are valued, otherwise somebody else will. Like it or not, the labor market succumbs to the same market forces that every other market does...
Re:non-compete == BS (Score:5, Insightful)
If they can't keep you there by treating you well, providing you opportunity to grow or paying you well. Then why does a company deserve to hold a monopoly on your employment?
The other problem with non-competes is that there have been numerous cases where employees are laid-off, but their NC are enforced preventing them from getting jobs in the industry.
Also a company should not be defined by an individual contributor. A company's success depends greatly on the culture and teamwork within that company. Something that is not easy to export (or import, as many merged companies have found out).
Also "trade secrets" and patents are outside of the scope of a non-compete clause. And you are liable for civil damages if you distribute trade secrets. Even if you no longer work for that company.
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If an employee is ethical, non-compete clauses aren't necessary.
I've been in a situation where I have moved jobs and been asked by my boss at the new employer for technical details of something I developed at my previous company, and refused - my position was that I would happily develop something different but equally effective for my new employer, but that the particular formulation belonged exclusively to my previous employer. I was prepared to use my expertise, but not any knowledge of the other compan
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"Why? If you spend 5 years at a company and learn 'the trade' on their dime they should be safe from you running to the next company and spilling everything they worked hard to make, at lest for a short time."
That would be true if they just paid you to hang out and learn. Their "dime" goes to pay you for the work you did to help their company prosper.
You can't take any trade secrets with you, but the general knowledge you gained belongs to you.
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God forbid people show some personal responsibility and not work for companies that force such agreements. Of course since it seems people will put it with anything as long as those numbers next to the $ are slightly bigger than at another company I'm not surprised.
Papermaster? (Score:2)
"Mark Papermaster"? What is it with all the oddball last names in the technology business? There's Faith Popcorn, but wikipedia says her birthname was Faith Plotkin. But "Papermaster" sounds like someone who should be running either a D&D game or Dunder Mifflin (or Wernham Hogg, I guess).
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Well in the olden days many people were named after their occupation. Maybe this guys forefathers were masters of papers?
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Well in the olden days many people were named after their occupation. Maybe this guys forefathers were masters of papers?
Larry Niven had an early short story [larryniven.org] (a precursor of his Known Space series) in which a future society had resurrected this practice. Along with Farmer, there were people with surnames like Accountant. Sadly, there was no one named Temporary Part-time Libraries North-West Inter-library Loan Business Unit Administration Assistant [cnn.com].
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Well who knows?
By the way, I like the age rating: May contain bloody violence. I guess bloodless violence is ok then.
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Maybe this guy's forefathers were masters of papers?
You mean like these people [animenewsnetwork.com]?-)
Probably more like this person [animenewsnetwork.com]. Why point to the sequel when the original is available? But who am I to talk; this was the first time I'd heard of this. No, I'm not a huge anime fan, but I occasionally watch it on CN, Spike, and G4. I'll keep my eye open for it.
IBM has a case (Score:5, Informative)
except non-compete agreements were ruled unconstitutional [capoliticalnews.com]
And rightly so, I shall add. Non-compete agreements are total crap and I hope IBM gets smacked down hard in court over this frivolous lawsuit.
What, you thought I was going to support IBM on this one? Don't believe everything you read in the subject line ;o)
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You might want to look into that a bit further. First, from the article that blog quoted, I think the blog is wrong about it being unconstitutional. It's just against state law -- CA law. Second, even by "state law" the article meant "constitution", the decision only applies within CA, which has stronger pro-worker laws than just about anywhere else in the US. IBM is suing in NY. So this decision probably means almost jack squat for this case.
Re:IBM has a case (Score:5, Interesting)
I prefer French law on non compete. If you have one of your employee sign a non compete, three conditions must be respected:
-limited scope on geography
-limited scope on time
and the better one
-while your former employee is unemployable due to the non compete, you must pay him a compensation for his unemployability. I don't remember how much but it's a certain percentage of the salary.
Re:IBM has a case (Score:5, Informative)
don't know about the first one, but IBM seems to be meeting the last two requirements:
-they're only asking that he refrain from working for Apple or another direct competitor for one year.
-they offered to pay him a year's salary (on top of his default compensation package) in exchange for his abidance with the non-compete clause.
while i think that non-compete clauses definitely have some potential for abuse by employers, i don't think IBM is being that unreasonable in this instance.
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Anything less than 100% would not be acceptable IMHO.
I predict this will be a failure (Score:5, Funny)
Apple chips are bland and only favored by dieters and health nuts. Now if the company was called 'Tortilla,' well, then...that would be delicious!
Perfectly Legal (Score:4, Informative)
I want some of whatever the hell IBM is smoking.
jdb2
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I want some of whatever the hell you Apple fanboys are smoking.
This case is not about Apple's or IBM's rights to the Power architecture. It is about an employment non-compete agreement.
I know I shouldn't be, but I am surprised to see an Apple fanboy turn a case about employment rights into a harangue about Apple's licensing rights.
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I think the point was just made that it really cannot be argued that IBM and Apple are competitors when they are in a cooperative agreement that covers the technology that this guy was privy to.
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So where is a chip designer supposed to go? (Score:2)
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And what was the last company that thought designing their own chips was a good idea. NVidia right?
Um, nVidia has no option but to design their own chips, they're the top GPU designer in the world. A better question would be why Intel bothers designing their own GPUs instead of partnering with nVidia.
That ended in epic fail.
The failure wasn't in the chips, it was in the mounting.
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A better question would be why Intel bothers designing their own GPUs instead of partnering with nVidia.
Might be because nVidia's chips are heavily based on licensed technology, which would restrict what Intel could do with it.
Wasn't there a problem with Microsoft being pissed off because of nVidia's license for the XBox GPU, making them go to ATI for the 360?
Something like that, don't remember where I read it though.
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Why did I have to read right to the end of the comments to find the first really insightful one?
And from an AC, at that!