Recovering Moldy Electronics? 512
cookiej writes "We just completed having our basement gutted and our house decontaminated from mold. The finished basement is gone, my office floor has been removed as well as 24' of drywall around the base of the room. So, we had a full home theater downstairs along with a couple of computers in the electronics closet that were completely immersed (rainwater, not sewage). We moved them to a sheltered area outside and covered them with a plastic tarp. Since the electronics were off when the water hit them, 1) do I have a chance of recovering them? 2) If so, is there a way to clean them with some sort of liquid bath that would not damage the electronics? and 3) I don't want to bring moldy pieces back in the clean house. How could I decontaminate the electronics themselves, pre-bath? Not looking to save the speakers, just the amp, DirecTV box, video switch, etc. Thanks for any help, here, Slashdot." Read on for more details of this reader's plight.
Early last month, we had about 10" of rain in the course of two hours. Many houses in our neighborhood were damaged. We had rainwater coming in our back door and cascading down the basement steps. We have two sump pumps that weren't keeping up (and of course, no battery backup) and as the water rose in the basement, it was getting dangerously close to the breaker panel. So I made the hard decision to shut down the main power and we got the hell out.
The water reached about 6' in the basement before it drained out. Once we got back, we could not move fast enough to get all the debris out before mold set in and boy did it.
Since we are not in a flood plain, our insurance for this is woefully inadequate. While I would love to just go out and buy replacements, there are far more pressing things to re-buy (washer/dryer, furnace, water heater, etc.) and if there is a chance I can salvage some of this it might be a nice change of luck.
Oh man (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Not really... a 7ft by 7ft room would have about 25ft of linear drywall along the base of the room, once you subtract out the door.
There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
If they were not plugged in they can be dried out and probably used again. I've never seen mold growing on electronics, but if you have mold/mildew you can wash them with a mild bleach/water solution. After they are clean flush them with distilled water and let them dry completely.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
"Completely" is the key phrase. Damage to electronics due to water is actually due to unexpected circuits forming and burning out components.
So if it looks dry, wait another couple of days.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I have successfully used a warm oven to recover a cell phone that had been immersed in a kayaking accident. Oven temperature was somewhere around 120F, left the cellphone in it for about 6 hours with the oven door open. I figured that this would be about the same as leaving electronics in a parked car in the sun, but with better ventilation.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, I've found one of the best things to use is desiccant. It will provide an absolute zero moisture environment. Simply put some in the bottom of a bucket, then a layer of paper towel, then the electronics.
If you want to re-use the desiccant you can put it in the oven. When it comes out, it will be one piece (no longer powder), but you can break it up pretty easily (like chalk).
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
True. When you can deliver a relatively dry air flow to every damp critical crevice of the wet parts, a fan will be more efficient.
I wasn't interested in disassembling the cell phone to the CB level, then fussing with alligator clamps stuck into chunks of modeling clay to position each circuit board and other piece in just-so good alignment with a fan's air stream. Plus the time lost to all that fussing and re-assembly has to be factored into any measure of efficiency. So when I found that the sandwich grade ziplock bag had not been the water proof cell phone protector that I had expected, the cell phone went into the warm oven, which took less than 30 seconds to set up, and I went on to other activities.
So rather than attempting to simulate an ideal high tech wind tunnel, I chose to simulate a primordial desert rock baking under a hot Sun. Appropriate technology and all that.
BTW, one quart freezer grade ziplock bags cost little more than the sandwich bags, and are a lot more effective at waterproofing cell phones, wallets, small cameras, and similar items that the novice kayaker should worry about.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
So you're saying that if I lived in Florida, I *can* use my clothes drier to get the wet off my electronics? Neat!
It's pretty humid here. I'm going to go throw my water-damaged laptop into the dryer for a few hours.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I know you were trying to be funny, but some dryers do have a removable shoe rack that doesn't rotate. Electronics could be placed on that while the dryer blows the hot air around.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, you want to do a little more than "completely". If you use a bleach/water solution as suggested, the little drops will leave deposits of conductive material. RINSE thoroughly with distilled water, and use a hair dryer to blow as much of the distilled water off as possible. Any deposit left from water evaporating is going to kill whatever electronics you own when you plug them in.
As a preventive measure, once it's all clean and squeaky like that, maybe spray a coat of polyurethane or some other waterproofing stuff that's non-conductive onto all parts that could conduct and aren't supposed to.
Good luck!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I highly recommend against use of a hair dryer to dry out electronics, and in most cases, anything else, hair excepted. You are very likely to damage the device with concentrated heat.
The first thing you need to know is the normal level of relative humidity in you area. If it's reasonably low (ie not monsoon season) then all you need is air circulation, not heat.
I have recovered many water damaged items. A typical example would be full immersion of a digital camera, a rather challenging project due to it's
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Funny)
Let me add my own experience too, wait a long time for the electronics to dry. Once it looks *completely* dry, wait one more year. Then in 2010, turn the stuff upside down, and repeat the process. In 2011, set it on its one side. In 2012, the other side. God help you if your stuff has more faces than a hexahedron!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Careful with that, because I had a co-worker who actually did this with a laptop (his dog peed on it). He left it in for a while, then turned the oven off. He left the laptop in to cool down. His wife came home and thought, "Hey, I'll make a frozen pizza for dinner! I better preheat the oven..."
I think you can all figure out how the story ends.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I think I'd be more concerned that a dog peed on my laptop.
In fact, scratch that. I'd be more upset that a dog peed on my laptop and I just put dog pee in my oven. Mmmmm... urine soaked roast turkey... mmmm...
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Funny)
Just stop, before you end up adding parentheses and reimplementing Lisp.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Bleach (chlorine) is a very bad idea. It will oxidize the metals very badly. Chlorine is incredibly corrosive.
Better to use a pure non-oil based solvent such as denatured alcohol (pure alcohol). Remember, nothing oil based like acetone or gasoline. Rubbing alcohol contains a lot of water so it's not best either.
Re: (Score:2)
Too bad bleach is the best way to deal with mold.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Insightful)
yah but, chances are the mold can't really feed off anything in the electronics. It needs more than just water to grow. Really its all about washing off water deposits and residual mold spores.
You don't need to kill the mold, just get most of it off. There is plenty of mold in the air anyway.
-Steve
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Funny)
[bender]"Heheheheh... Lightweights! Oh, wait... Chlorine."[/bender]
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Denatured alcohol is mostly isopropyl
Well, no, last I looked it was mostly ethyl (i.e., neutral grain spirits, i.e. yum)... Rubbing alch is isopropyl.
with methanol added to make it undrinkable
Isopropanol doesn't need much help [wikipedia.org] in that category.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
I use MG Chemicals Super Wash Cat# 406B-425G [mgchemicals.net] for cleaning most PCBs. The important thing to consider is if the electronics are new enough and worth saving it probably as BGA components that water will lurk under for weeks. This chemical can has 3 power settings and setting it to HI with the straw will push the residual water out. I have recovered many water soaked laptops using this and failing to get under the BGAs will lead to failure later on.
$15 per can at your local Fry's
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Funny)
This chemical can has cheezburger
There, fixed that for you.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
That lurking moisture is why pure alcohol is so important. Alcohol will not dry water but it will sneak about and displace water so that a fan can dry the parts out. Simply repeat the dunking in alcohol a couple of times and the blowing out with a fan. You can ask your local pharmacist for pure alcohol and explain why you need it.
I used to use under water metal detectors and those critters are known to flood now and then. In salt water time is an even greater factor but usually those circuits could be saved by a quick flushing with fresh water followed by drowning them in pure alcohol and blowing them out.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
How the hell does water get *under* a BGA? The surface tension should keep it out.
The gap is tiny. Fractions of a millimeter.
How the hell does water get *into* a sponge? The surface tension should keep it out. The holes are tiny. Fractions of a millimeter.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Interesting)
Come on slashdotters, this is grade eight science!
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Funny)
Are you reading the same two posts the rest of us are?
GGP: "you will see a miniscus"
GP: "it's spelled meniscus".
Now sing with me, "One of these things is not like the other..."
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
It is called Capillary Action [wikipedia.org] my friend. That surface tension you were talking about, actually causes the water to be sucked into small gaps like this. It only works if the attraction between water molecules is less than the attraction between water and external material.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Funny)
Don't listen to him. I work for a major soup manufacturer. I recommend putting lots of soup in your dishwasher. Also, fill your car's gas tank with soup. (This is called "souping up" your car. All the real car lovers do it.) And why not buy an extra 100 cans of soup per week with your grocery shopping? Too much soup is never enough. BUY MORE SOUP.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Interesting)
No! Bleach BAD. Bleach will oxidize all the metals, including the ones you thought couldn't rust!
I have washed boards in the dishwasher before (no soap!) but that was for spilled liquids. With the presence of mold, you have a different problem.
First, remove any batteries on the board (coin batteries are common,) as they create a sparking hazard. Use pure isopropyl alcohol (not the 66% stuff) which will mix with remaining water and should help you both clean up and kill the mold. I'd start working over an empty pan, and pour alcohol over it as I cleaned it. Brush everything possible with a natural fiber brush (not a plastic bristled brush that may dissolve.) Get under components with a pipe cleaner. And no smoking around the alcohol, of course! When it's done, drain it. If you have access to it, thoroughly blow it dry with dried compressed air (air from an ordinary shop compressor will contain water and/or oil.)
Once the visible alcohol is gone, you'll still need to dry the board. It will take time, warmth, and air movement. An oven at the "keep warm" setting (no more than 170 degrees) shouldn't damage the plastics, but not while it's still evaporating alcohol fumes. A fan and some incandescent light bulbs (desk lamps up close) would probably do just as good. Warm sunshine is very good, too (and helps kill mold) but the humidity outside is usually pretty variable, so you wouldn't want it to remain outside in the evening to collect dew.
However, be prepared for disappointment. If there are electrolytic capacitors on your board, there's a good chance they were already destroyed by the water. They are not typically sealed to ward off immersion in liquids.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm just chiming in here.
A few people mentioned bleach being bad. Yes, it is.
My step son died in our home, in his bathroom Natural causes, don't be gruesome please. As much as I don't like saying it, there was a smell left behind. The coroner's office couldn't give us any advice. When people die, they leave behind a smell pretty quick. For them, they change clothes on the way out of work and don't take them home.
We tried a variety of things to clean the bathroom. After trying so many solutions, I decided to spray the entire room down with 50/50 bleach and water mix. It helped to get rid of some of the smell, but on most of the metals it touched, it corroded them almost immediately. Things like sink fixtures, outlet screws, door knobs. Think, anything metal that may be in an otherwise emptied bathroom (towels, floor mats, and even the shower curtain had already been removed).
So, yes, bleach is bad.
I've repaired some electronics that have had exposure to some liquids. Usually rubbing alcohol works well. It'll dissolve nasty things like dried soda and some corrosion. I usually use a Q-tip to do the actual cleaning. It can be rather bad on it's own too, so it's a very manual process of cleaning, rather than what the original poster seemed to want (dump it all in, bring it all out, and turn it on). Depending on how nasty it got, you could spend an hour just cleaning out the insides of a single remote control.
Any (ANY) power will lead to corrosion. Most people think the A/C power, but laptop batteries, and even the BIOS battery or other onboard batteries will cause corrosion too.
My wife left one of our cordless phones out where the sprinklers hit. Our water is filtered very well. She didn't realize it until the next day. The corrosion from the phone battery pretty much destroyed it. I managed to clean up a lot of the corrosion as outlined above, but not enough to make it work right again. I told her about the battery and corrosion. Our baby dropped the other cordless phone in the toilet. She fished it out within a minute and pulled the battery out. I just left it to sit in the sun for the rest of the day and it worked fine after that. The same quality water, and the toilet was probably worse exposure, and just removing power from it saved it.
Unfortunately, my advice for the original poster is, suck it up and replace anything that you can't get going again fairly quickly. You'll spend a lot of effort on nothing otherwise. Remember that basement theaters are cool, but not when there's a potential for flooding, which can happen anywhere.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
There's where you went wrong. A bleach solution of 200ppm (parts per million) is sufficient to kill molds,yeasts, and any kind of odor causing bacteria. It's unlikely to have any affect on metals if rinsed. It's even safe to drink if you don't over do it. A 50/50 mix is used specifically for its oxidizing properties. Like making your undies *really* white.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Vinyl phonograph albums DO mold (this happened to a friend's collection after their roof got partly knocked off -- they were almost at ground zero for the Northridge quake). They can be cleaned with soap and bleach, but may not be playable again, depending on how "soft" the mold made the vinyl.
I was given some SCSI cards, RAM sticks, and I/O cables that had cig smoke, mold, and gods know what else stuck to them. I washed them with dish soap and pet-urine deodorizer. They still work.
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Let me add to these other ideas a product named "Corrosion Block" (for the marine industry) and/or "ACF 50" (for aviation). Despite the different names, the product itself is the exact same thing, and works wonders on electronics that have been, or will be getting, wet. You can find it in most boating stores. Spray on a thin film, clean the electronics, let them dry thoroughly. A little goes a long way. The only caveat is that due to its ability/nature to "creep" over time (a good thing, it ensures even coverage), you want to use it sparingly around LCD displays so that it doesn't get inside. Living on a boat, I have had plenty of opportunity (too much!) to do what it is that you are having to do. :) Good luck!
Re:There is hope (Score:5, Informative)
Oops, should have included a link:
http://www.nocorrosion.com/corrosion-control.htm [nocorrosion.com]
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
Where did you get that information - I've never heard that...? "PB Blaster" is a great product in it's own right, though. I've used it many many times.
Comparing the MSDS Sheets, they appear to be different compounds:
Lear Corp's "Corrosion Block" - http://www.nocorrosion.com/MSDS-1.pdf [nocorrosion.com]
Blaster Products "Corrosion Stop" - http://www.blasterchemical.com/images/msds/CSP-Aerosol-nov06.pdf [blasterchemical.com]
...but I'm no chemist, so they might well be using different names to describe the same materials.
Re:There is hope (Score:4, Informative)
I've not used that on electronics, but I did use it on an old car I had. Kept the "check engine" light out from a short in the wiring harness under the hood. I only used "corrosion block" every 6 months to a year or so. Got it at West Marine. I was put onto it for this purpose by a mechanic who serviced the local bus fleet.
"T-9 Boeshield" is another product I have used in a similar manner. It leaves a film behind that is waxlike and can make a mess on glass and such. Works good for lubrication of moving parts around electrical though (power locks, same car) ...not sure about around optics in a drive. I got exuberant on the driver's side lock and took 3 or 4 tries with Windex to get the film off the glass.
There are also some products that are essentially isopropyl alcohol in a spray can. Careful that you don't strip coating off the circuits. Some coatings are natural shellac which is alcohol soluble. In that vein, stop at the drugstore and get a bottle of rubbing alcohol. Get the 97% not the 85%, yes it costs 2x as much, so that's $1.50 for a pint.
If you can't take this gear down to individual circuit board level, then there is little hope for it.
Disclaimer: I've never cleaned a full system, just components like keyboards, mice, and a portable CD player. Mold was minimal. The keyboards and mice were usually from coffee or soda, and the CD player I think was excessive dust. The CD player failed completely after a second cleaning about a year after the first. The keyboards still live, and one has been cleaned 3 or 4 times now. (college was hard on it)
Phil
bleach and mold - a summary of suggestions (Score:5, Informative)
I've done this too, but not as much as the parent, I'm sure!
I personally think mold is insidious and terrible, so I'd prioritize getting rid of mold over saving the electronics - but that doesn't mean I wouldn't try. (I rather imagine that most of the boater's stuff has to ALREADY be mold resistant, which does help stop the spread of mold.)
So I definitely recommend the mild bleach solution. This is increasing the death rate of the mold, but at the cost of reducing the life of your electronics. Since these things were submerged in water, ideally I'd recommend submerging them in a mild bleach solution for perhaps 20 min - ideally rotate/shake them a couple times during this bath.
If something has a ton of mold on it, you may want to actually WASH this - perhaps with mild soap or mild bleach, and scrubbing until there isn't a big pile of mold. Or it might be enough to let it soak longer (but with more corrosion) and shake it more.
Then to get RID of the bleach, I'd rinse them with two baths. (Because the first bath becomes bleachy just by the presence of the bleachy item you're rinsing.) In each case I'd give it some time to soak (~20 min) but esp in the first rinse, to make sure it gets all the bleach into solution.
Tap water is probably fine for the first one, but use distilled water for the second. After a couple items you should replace the second bath - and you might as well replace the first-bath with the water you just stopped using for the second bath.
Then I'd make sure they were quite dry as fast as possible, so any mold spores the bleach missed doesn't regrow on the damp you just created. The easiest way to do this is baking. 120 is pretty safe - most electronics can handle 140+ without a problem... the sensitive interior components get really hot while running, so the ones you're worried about damaging are usually the outside plastics.
40 min on one side (including getting it up to temp) and 20 min upside down is probably enough to stop further mold growth. I'd give them hours in the oven or days sitting before I turned them on, though.
Assuming you have a big pile of stuff to do this to, and 3 large buckets, and an oven as big as all 3 buckets combined, I've just described a 5 step assembly line process, where every 20 minutes you can move something ahead one step.
For smaller items, or ones you're not taking apart, the last bath could be rubbing alcohol, which would make it dry much faster. But in volume it's considerably more expensive; even distilled H20 is only a dollar a gallon.
You can do all the above things as a wash instead of a bath, IF you can effectively get to all the surfaces...
Spraying on a nonconductive corrosion resistor (like the above mentioned products seem to be) sounds like it would tend to extend the life of the device; it might also seal in any remaining mold spores, which I'd consider to be a good thing - but I'd still do a bleach-bath first to kill as much as you can.
It's a lot of work.
dunking electroncis whole is a bad idea (Score:2)
The devices that simply have circuit boards and cables can possiblly be saved by disassembly followed by thourough cleaning (I wouldn't worry too much about the cleaning agent damaging the boards, PCB assemblies are pretty tough generally just get the boards rinsed and dried thouroughly before reassembly). I wouldn't hold out much hope for cleaning the TV without destroying it though.
Re:dunking electroncis whole is a bad idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Heh. The good news was that our HT setup is a Front-projection and the projector was on the ceiling. The lens cap that hangs down had a thin line across the top third, indicating how close the water came to ruining it. And that one I don't think would have survived. Those bulbs are quite sensitive.
The screen was home-built for around $80 in parts, so I can re-create that. But the whole "down to the studs" thing is
Re:dunking electroncis whole is a bad idea (Score:5, Funny)
Apparently, you found more water after turning the power back on.
Rubbing Alchohol (Score:4, Informative)
Pure rubbing alcohol might be your best best.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:4, Informative)
Where are you getting your information? Once in college I spilled Coke onto a motherboard (not plugged in fortunately). I cleaned with pure rubbing alcohol. I let it sit for a day, and plugged it in. It worked fine.
Rubbing alcoholic has the advantage of evaporating completely away rather quickly. So unless you can point me to a source that says otherwise, rubbing alcohol is fine.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:5, Informative)
You can get some pretty good 99% isopropyl from any good pharmacy (ask for it) or computer store (I get mine from Altex, it's $8 a bottle..). While it's good for cleaning things like keyboards (because it'll cut through grease like a hot knife through butter) it does have some nasty side effects like being able to etch the anti-reflective coating off LCD panels, taking the silkscreening off of PCBs etc. :)
It shouldn't really damage tin solder or chip packages but who knows. You're probably better off with distilled water and bleach for mold. Maybe give it a wash with isopropyl afterwards, but use the 50-70% cheap stuff. The idea is that isopropyl is a solvent - therefore things will dissolve in it including all the crud. But too strong a solvent and you'll eat into the PCB and any components that aren't up to it.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Flux wash is the answer for washing the PCBs. The entire idea of flux wash is to wash leftover flux from the PCB after soldering the components on. It also removes most other dirt and grease as well. It's designed to be used on PCBs that are already populated, to the point where with (some, not this one) washes it can be used with the circuit POWERED!
You can buy it in a spray can at a real electronics store (hint: It won't have the words radio or shack in its name) for ~$10.
(Most flux wash is 99% IPA, B
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:5, Informative)
We use CMOS grade IPA (95% Rubbing alcohol) to clean boards all the time. Works a treat.
Buy a couple gallons from a chem supply company and a handful of *hogs hair* brushes (not metal brushes, obviously, and not nylon, not so obviously)
If you can't order from a supply company, then you will spend more, but get either 99% IPA or 190 proof everclear from the drugstore and soft bristle toothbrushes. Go to town, be sure to lightly soak the board under components to flush out residual water.
Bake cleaned boards under some 60-100 watt desk lights for a day or two (close enough to feel that the boards get warm) or in your oven at 110deg C for about 90 minutes (door open).
-nB
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:5, Insightful)
e.g. if you pass electricity through them while they are that hot, they get way too hot and burn up.
Whereas if you don't do anything, it's pobably a long way off from damaging the silicon.
But check the manufacturer's specs for _storage_.
Re:Rubbing Alchohol (Score:4, Informative)
Used to clean TV sets with a few buckets of distilled water, then throw a 20W incandescent inside and leave it for a week to dry.
Corrosion is inevitable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
It depends on the degree of corrosion. Since corrosion cannot be repaired, there is only a prayer. Make sure your electronics is completely dried out, then power it up outside your house on Halloween night. Kids will appreciate the sparks and smoke.
As for disinfecting it: mold is heat sensitive - it likes cold wet dark environments best (in sealed cask, furry adipocere!) - so having your electronics running outdoor for a day or two should take care of disinfecting the inards. You wash the case from outsid
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. I forgot to mention that.
That's why time is so important in these matters.
Of course if the corrosion was minimal, it still might work without problems. It would just get hotter because of the additional resistance. So check your heat sensors. Especially those not it the bigger chips, because these will not have been affected that much by corruption. Of course an external sensor on a on-board hot spot would be perfect, but who has that available?
If the electrolysis is worse, you'll get power fluctua
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, and that hot spot would be the voltage regulator (mostly to be found between the cpu and the rear ports). You recognize it by the large capacitors and small heat sinks an between them.
And it has a comical courtship behavior, where it jitters its heat sinks in a rhythmic fashion and lets its capacitors glow red to impress a possible mate. ;)
Re:Corrosion is inevitable. (Score:5, Informative)
Look for a product called Corrosion X.
It's somewhat like WD-40. It is non-conductive and can be sprayed directly on electronics. It forms a hydrophobic barrier between the electronics and the elements and may help.
It is typically used as a preventative. Often used in the aviation market to protect wing/fuselage interiors, it is also sprayed directly on avionics to reduce corrosion.
It's cheap and is worth a shot.
Ethanol (Score:5, Funny)
Copious quantities of ethanol will help, possibly in more ways than one. :)
I'd try... (Score:2, Informative)
...Isopropyl Alcohol, aka rubbing alcohol. It's cheap (1$/pt?) and should sanitize your gear nicely. Given the size of the job, you might get a few gallons and dunk your gear.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Your Walgreens sells good beer? Maybe I should give them another chance.
I'm confused about the 91% part. I'm also confused about beer not leaving a residue.
Re:I'd try... (Score:4, Funny)
Um? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I agree. It's the only way to be sure.
rubbing alcohol (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Just give the boards two or more runs because of the white residue which will appear if you use impure alcohol(70-30) and/or from chemical reactions from the soldering process.
Don't (Score:5, Insightful)
write-off (Score:2)
Consider anything with IC pins, surface contacts, etc. to be a write-off. I /suppose/ you could save some of the passives, like RCA and speaker cables, if you soak their ends in contact cleaner.
Consider buying a generator and/or better pumps and moving your electronic gear to higher ground... :/
Re: (Score:2)
Distilled water is your freind (Score:5, Informative)
I was recently able to recover a number of computers that had been in a fire and had been sprayed with water from a fire hose. They were a mess, but so far they all work (10 months and counting)
Maybe... (Score:2)
Solid-state stuff, if cleaned properly (i.e., with copious amounts of distilled water), should work just fine after *brief* immersion, as long as no power was applied (which is not the same as being turned off).
You can kiss the hard drives goodbye, and capacitors may be a big issue. How quickly did you get it out the door?
As far as the question of admitting dirty mold into your house, molds are everywhere in the environment. (Try leaving bread dough out without adding yeast and see how long it takes to sta
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Interesting)
>
Finally, where do you live? 10" of rain turns into 6' of water in a basement when you don't live in a flood plain? Why would anyone build a basement in an area subject to such problems? (I live in an area without basements, both because of shrink-swell soil and high water tables.)
Well, it was the worst rain in 135 years. So the phrase "subject to" is... well, quite subjective.
Re:Maybe... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, we are at a somewhat low point in the area, but also right next to a storm sewer. We haven't had water before this so I was quite surprised to see the water forcing itself through the bottom and sides of our back door.
Our storm sewer has been known to get clogged and start to back up toward our house. But I usually just go out, clear the sewer with a rake and that's the end of it.
Actually, I *DID* exactly that earlier in the morning of that day. Wife threw up the alarm that the water was starting to pool, so I went out, cleared the sewer... watched it all drain in, no pool... and went back in and started breakfast. Before breakfast was over, I heard something strange and thought one of our gutters was overflowing. Only to find the newest waterfall down to the basement.
Dangerous! (Score:2)
While you can probably safely attempt recovering any small battery-powered device, I wouldn't do it for anything that plugs in. If there's a catastrophic failure caused by damage, corrosion, or other problems, you could have a pretty serious fire risk.
If you must insist on recovering the hardware, at the very least keep the stuff OFF via a powerstrip when no one is babysitting it. Even then, I wouldn't feel safe doing this.
First things: (Score:2)
Well, speaking from rescuing mobile phones (the only things I have managed to get that wet that was more complicated than a wireless keyboard) I would suggest that you give your gear a solid wash under warm water (preferably before it dries out totally). You want to try to wash out all the other stuff before it gets dry and hard to remove. It was
Electronic baths (Score:5, Informative)
Water can be used to clean electronics in manufacturing processes. Most electronic components will not be damaged by water. Make sure you get all the dirt and grim out.
1.Don't plug it yet.
2. Take all electronics completely apart. Look for damage or corrosion.
3. Remove every battery.
4. Flush it out with distilled water.
5. Use electronic cleaner or alcohol(not the stuff you drink) to remove any mineral deposits.
6. Dry off with paper towel.
7. Let it dry completely. If you have any doubts wait till it's completely dry.
8. Plug it in and cross your fingers.
Non-moving parts should be OK (Score:2)
Computer fans and the like will probably be unsalvageable, but the rest should be OK after some cleaning. I'd disassemble everything, as much as I was comfortable putting back, and use some distilled water and a toothbrush to clean it. If there's evidence of corrosion on the boards, you can try cleaning/scraping it away, but your odds of a successful recovery start to go down. Follow up with some rubbing alcohol to displace the water and let things dry for a day or two before reassembly.
If you value your
Re:Non-moving parts should be OK (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly enough, one of the computers that got dunked was an old Apple Cube I used to monitor my UPS and other various cron jobs. It as no fans, so we'll see. The bad news is that it may have been powered when the water hit it. It was at the bottom of the rack and the water was at about 3' when I killed the power.
The real test will be the PS3. It was at the top of the rack and probably was barely under. Amazingly, my network gear and the UPS that powers it were all at a height of about 6'4". And never were touched.
They're cleanable. (Score:5, Informative)
Start with a rinse with distilled water. There's very little in electronics that gets hurt by water anyway -- the issues are with it shorting out, or longer term, corrosion. You'll want to open all the cases to do this, and then ideally blow them dry with a compressed air nozzle. Letting it evaporate will just redeposit all the crud you cleaned off.
Then rinse with alcohol, and again blow it off rather than letting it dry. At this point, if it looks clean it is, as far as the electronics are concerned. I imagine the same is true from a mold standpoint, but you probably know more about that than I do.
If things are being really stubborn, an ultrasonic cleaning bath in alcohol is remarkably effective (and completely safe for the electronics). 5-10 minutes should be plenty. I don't know off hand where to find a large one cheaply, though -- that may take some investigation. If you can't borrow one, I'd just take some warm soapy water and a toothbrush and work at it by hand (and then repeat the distilled water and alcohol rinses to remove any soap and such).
If any of these things have moving parts (eg DVD player) they'll be more difficult. None of this will hurt anything, but if there are any gears that are supposed to be greased this will remove that. Some rubber in pulleys and such might not like the alcohol. But, most modern cheap moving parts are unlubricated nylon, so there isn't likely to be an issue. Cooling fans are usually unlubricated, either with a plain nylon bearing or ball bearings, and so should be ok with this cleaning treatment.
Similarly, hard drives are almost certainly a lost cause. I'd try powering them up, but if they've been underwater then the water likely got in through the pressure equalization holes. I wouldn't clean them (wipe down the outside with a damp sponge, but nothing more aggressive) -- just hope for the best and expect them to have died.
Good luck, and may I suggest you invest in a more serious pump?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Good luck, and may I suggest you invest in a more serious pump?
You may. A suggestion I will follow when we rebuild the basement. Although we have TWO pumps, I intend to add a third, that HAS a backup battery. This was a catastrophic storm, as I said previous, worst in 135 years.
distilled water heat and alcohol (Score:3, Informative)
As another poster has mentioned, if there are now dissolved minerals permeating the circuitry you are probably out of luck.
Here's what you can try if you are feeling brave.
Get some DISTILLED WATER. Clean the electronics thoroughly. The more you can take things apart and get to the nooks and crannies the better.
Now the hard part. To drive off the water you will need a nice dry enclosure which can be heated to a relatively high temperature, say 130-140 deg F or so. The upper temperature depends on the plastic materials used, if it gets too hot they will start to deform. Watch carefully.
Leave things heated for at least 2-4 hours.
Now go back over things with 90% + isopropyl alcohol (it might be hard to find - do NOT use the 70% stuff).
Why this might not work : the "dissolved" materials which have stuck to the PCB and components do not get washed off completely. They are still present and when you hit the power something shorts - bright lights and probably a decent badda-boom.
The exposure which the electronics have already experienced have more than likely started corroding the potentiometers, i.e. volume, bass, etc.. controls. So even if things power up they may not work correctly.
Finally, if you can't take things apart and expose the PCBs and a good portion of the components, then your chances of success are very low. However if you can really get at the compenents this method will work.
Good luck !
REMEMBER, IF YOU TRY THIS BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN IT COMES TIME TO FLIP THE POWER ON. I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE IF YOU GET ELECTROCUTED.
junk it all (Score:2)
it really is that simple.
not the answer you want but its the smart answer.
you will NEVER clean the insides of electronics well enough to TRUST them.
plus, you just spent money de-molding the house. why even risk bringing that bad stuff back in?
sorry - but its all a 100% loss. that's what insurance is for.
the ONLY things I would hand-clean are the old ancient things that can't be replaced (if you have such things). but anything buyable should be re-bought, if its still current. family heirlooms are the on
i done this before (Score:3, Interesting)
My water damage recovery (Score:4, Interesting)
I moved from Ca to Co once. In winter.
In a storm.
In the back of a truck.
Get the idea?
LOADS of electronics got wet. Some took, literally, years to get working again.
The BIGGEST thing you can do to save your stuff is this: GET IT DRIED THE FUCK OUT. Water is corrosive to the copper in the products you have (besides the electromechanical problems, like bearings in hard drives (old ones), etc), and if left to do it's thing, electrolysis will eat them up.
I ended up having the entire back of my truck filled with the style cartons you find at 7-11 or something similiar. Split top, about 12 to 18 inches deep. My tarp had a rip in it, unbeknownst to me, and when I stopped, THEY FILLED WITH WATER.
The next day, I made my destination, and the day after that, I got the screwdriver out. EVERYTHING was cleaned off with a rag internally, and I ended up losing about 10 percent of the devices.
Don't power them up until you KNOW everything is dry.
Any transformers, if your really worried about (read, if they are HEAVY and expensive), can be desoldered and heated in your home oven, on it's lowest setting (they can take > 150 degrees easily). That will bake out any moisture.
Ditto for some really high power transistors. One trick we used in making REALLY high power CB radio amplifiers was to bake the transistors for about 2 hours. This removed ANY moisture under the caps of the 2879s (part number 2SC2879). This netted us about 2 to 3 more volts on the collectors. After talking to engineers, we found that even a LITTLE bit of moisture in there, will turn to steam after the devices reach their internal operating temp. Higher voltage on the collector = higher temperatures (more dissipation). Baking them got us 2 to 3 more volts and that equalled a few hundred more watts (for every 50 percent increase in supply voltage, your Pout doubles) (think, 24 to 64 transistors being combined).
Simple green or even lysol does well for mold inhibition. You can also do a 5 % bleach solution, but then you run the risk of losing color, faceplates, some plastics, etc.
Hope it helps.
--Toll_Free
Hose 'em out, see what happens. (Score:2)
My grandparents' house was flooded in the mid 70's. Truly flooded - water up past the first floor. Rip the plaster down clean the mud out of the studs flooded.
They had a little black-and-white TV at the time - 12" or so I would guess. According to grandpa, he just hosed it out with a garden hose and left it to dry. You couldn't see the numbers on the dials (they were still full of mud) but it worked for decades after. It might still work, I'm not sure what ever happened to it.
With modern equipment I'd be a
Re: (Score:2)
> With modern equipment I'd be a bit more gentle...
The modern equipment is more robust.
I am an insurance restoration contractor (Score:2, Informative)
Actually, we remove mold from electronics all the time. We use either an ozone machine or ultrasonic cleaning as demonstrated by this link.
http://www.arsmitigations.com/Electronics_Restoration.php
Cost vs. Effort? (Score:2)
What would it cost to replace what you bought versus sending everything to a recovery specialist, or replacing it with stuff from Craigslist?
What would it cost (in terms of dollars or hours, whatever is more valuable to you) to:
- take everything apart
- subject the individual components to any of the treatments prescribed here
- reassemble everything (except for those extra pieces, intentionally removed for efficiency's sake!)
And is there any guarantee everything will work? Speakers without rigid
Recovery is possible (Score:2)
Water and Alcohol (Score:2)
Rinse thoroughly with first distilled water and then alcohol (90% would be best). Try hard to flush out the small spaces under parts with alcohol as those are the hardest areas to get dry. Then dry with low heat. You should have done this immediately: too much corrosion may already have occured.
And file an insurance claim. They will pay off when they learn that the stuff got wet: most people believe that water always utterly destroys electronics.
A lot of pessimists around here! (Score:5, Interesting)
Many years ago I worked in the service department of an electronics OEM repairing stuff returned from the field. The OEM built two-way radios. One time we were sent a portable radio that had been recovered from the sea-bed having been dropped from an oil-rig in the North Sea six months previously. The unit had a die-cast zinc/aluminium chassis and case and standard double-sided PCBs with mostly discrete components and a few ICs. It was extremely corroded, covered in salty deposits, and naturally didn't work. I was written off immediately but as a 17yo with time on his hands I took it as a challenge. I cleaned up the unit by passing it through the tanks of hot trichloroethylene that were used for cleaning newly assembled boards. This removed most of the surface corrosion on the PCBs and chassis. An open-framed rotary switch for channel selection was replaced as it was too far gone.I ran the boards through the normal service/setup procedure. The receiver came up no problem with basic retuning. The transmitter was dead but only needed a new final stage transistor and a retune. It passed spec. It was returned to the customer along with a new replacement unit. They were astonished and very pleased with the customer service received beyond the call of duty or expectation. Whether it was connected I don't know but they placed a huge order with us several months afterwards...
The kit here was immersed in fresh water for much less time. While component densities are much higher in modern kit, I think there's a good chance it will work after careful cleaning and drying. Worth a shot anyway - what have you got to lose?
Re: (Score:2)
I guess the question is not 'can' it be fixed, but 'should' it be fixed. Yes, I'm sure everything he has could be reconstructed, given ample time, money, energy, and soldering skill. But what the hell, dry it out, plug it in. Worst case, it'll catch on fire. Best case, it'll just work!
Dishwasher? (Score:3, Informative)
The priority is (Score:3, Informative)
Getting all the mold out of them -- the second priority is having them work again.
Steps;
-- well away from any sparks or flame (ie NO SMOKING :-)
1: Disassemble completely
2: Immerse everything in wd40 -- wd stands for water displacer -- this will make absolutely sure there is no water at all left on them. Agitate in the wd40. (you can buy wd40 by the gallon)
3: Rinse with as pure ethyl alcohol/rubbing alcohol as you can find -- closest to 100%. Use plenty -- scrub with a toothbrush at this point to remove anything stubborn. This should remove anything not removed by the wd40, and will remove all the wd40 too.
4: Immerse in a second pure alcohol bath that you try to keep clean -- ie use a different bucket than step 3 -- try to get everything off in step 3.
The alcohol will evaporate quickly, leaving everything dry quite soon with no residue (the two rinse steps help with this).
-- at this point, I'd be quite surprised if there was any mold or dirt or oils of any kind left on anything.
4:Reassemble
5:Plug it in and hope for the best -- if it doesn't work, toss it in the trash.
This procedure will not work for anything with any unsealed lubricated moving parts, as it will remove *all* of of the lubrication.
It will also likely cloud any transparent plastics.
Dehumidifier. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not sure how much this will help, but:
Run a dehumidifier or two non-stop until the air humidity is under 40%. You will likely draw several gallons of water from the air itself, and hopefully dry out the electronics. It will also make the basement liveable in short order.
Good luck, whatever you try.
not as completely powered off as you think (Score:3, Informative)
Most PCs now have bios batteries. Some are very hard to get to too. (macbook for example, UNDER the logic board) We get people that bring in things like that which got a drink spilled in them and told us they instantly removed the battery. It probably helped, but didn't save it. Water + electricity =. electrolysis, and that's a great way to grow shorts.
Water can be very hard to get out of modern electronics. Surface mount chip packages can hold water for weeks or months underneath them, and the closely spaced pins wick water like you would not believe. If you place a drop of water on the edge of a surface chip like that, the drop will just shrink and disappear, as it's sucked down under the chip. Getting that back out is just as hard as you can imagine.
You can try to bake the electronics, but you really have to watch the temperature. Lots of plastics in there. I've tossed around ideas like taking a big can of desiccant (like in the "do not eat" packets) and an airtight bag and let it sit that way under a sun lamp for a few days. The idea is the heat doesn't actually remove the water, it just helps keep the humidity mobile. The desiccant WILL pull the humidity out of the air which the warmth has helped free up, and lock it away. Moving air inside the bag would probably speed the process. Remember, more heat isn't necessarily better. Dryer IS pretty much always better. (hope your caps are sealed well...) It's not the heat that dries it out, it's the difference in humidity. (a process accelerated by heat and movement of air)
Certain things just plain can't be saved. LCD panels wick water into the panel, and there's no easy getting that out without actually disassembling the panel (LCD / polarizers / light spreader / etc) But that's more of a cosmetic thing than functional, so if you don't mind the weird effect it has on the panel, ok for you.
Home electronics don't often have a bios battery, but many have "supercaps" - high farad count capacitors that keep your settings alive for a few days if power is removed. Those work just like batteries, creating electrolysis in the presence of water. They're soldered down and usually tucked away, so not easy to unplug either.
Anything with a motor in it is going to be trouble to get water out of. Copper windings can trap water for a very long time. Wire wound and thin film pots can be greatly affected by corrosion and are usually sealed just well enough to hold in water but discourage drying out.
Even water that appears to be clean can bring in other problems. Grit and light film can form in places it does not belong, interfering with optical gates, clouding lenses in your optical disk players, etc. Optical pots can get their optics clouded or blocked.
Good luck. I doubt much you do will make a difference at this point - most of your gear was doomed from day 1. Most of what you manage to save probably didn't need your help to survive. (you didn't make a difference) But you can try - just don't blow too much time or expense in vain.
Easiest Solution (Score:3, Funny)
The easiest solution, of course, is to go back in time before the flood and get everything out of the basement.
Rice (Score:3, Funny)
In addition to the above stated solutions, you might speed the drying process with rice.
It's easy... (Score:3, Informative)
1) Get you some high-grade isopropyl alcohol (not the wussy 70% stuff -- the 97% stuff they use in cleanrooms)
2) Put it in a tub
3) Rinse your electronics in it -- vigorously, but briefly
4) Let dry for a couple of days (to play it safe)
And, voila! It should all just work. Maybe. DO NOTE: this stuff is flammable like nobody's business. Don't do this in an enclosed area, and don't do it if there's any chance of sparks.
P.S. If rust has set in, ain't much that's gonna fix that.
P.P.S. YMMV, etc.
Sporaclean anti mold enzyme (Score:3, Interesting)
This probably won't ever get read, but you are seriously in need of Sporaclean http://www.killmoldfast.com/ [killmoldfast.com]. It's an insanely good product. You should get this stuff, dilute it and coat the room, and everything in it.
Water removal != mold removal (Score:4, Informative)
I've read a lot of people with great advice on removing water and even sea water. They've got a lot more expertise than I do, although I find their stories interesting to read.
The OP mentions mold. As a resident of central Texas, I think I can safely say that mold is evil. Once you get a little, it's really hard to get rid of it all, and any mold infestation will have serious health implications in the short and long term. I realize that it may be painfully expensive, but if you suspect any mold on anything, you should either quarantine it until you can thoroughly kill it or just trash it. A basement with two sump pumps suggests to me that it's not a typically dry place. If this is the case, you're in pretty rough shape structurally -- I hope you can afford a good mold removal service. If there's any delay while you save up money or have to wait for service availability, get a good dehumidifier for the affected spaces and make sure that it either drains properly or is emptied regularly. Cutting down the humidity will hinder further mold growth, although it shouldn't harm what you already have.
Mold is evil. A little leads to a lot. Kill 99.9% of it, and that last 0.1% will grow a hundredfold while you recover from the effort of killing 99.9% of it.
Re:The home theater all got wet? (Score:5, Informative)
One of the ugly little things about homeowner's insurance (at least in the US) is that it, by default, does not cover damage due to flooding.
Many people who don't live in an area where floods are a real likelihood don't buy the extra flood insurance, which is probably the case here ("Since we are not in a flood plain, our insurance for this is woefully inadequate.")
I learned the hard way a year or two ago exactly what "flood" means in insurance terms. It includes a flooded basement due to a failed sump pump. Fortunately in my case, the only loss was some 20-year-old carpet.
So here's my little PSA: Even if you don't live somewhere that can really "flood" in a traditional sense, buy flood insurance if you have a basement. At least the minimal "get the mold out" insurance.
Re:The home theater all got wet? (Score:5, Informative)
You had water up to the celing to get your projector and all the gear in the rack as well? Holy crap how about replacing the electrical panels as well as the furnace, ac and other things forst..
If you re-read the original post, you'll see that those things are of course on our list. We had the electrical panel dried out, taken apart and inspected by an electrician.
The water didn't actually reach the ceiling. It got up to about 6' which was close to (like within 3-4 inches) the bulk of my networking equipment (router, one of my UPSes, Apple Airport and the cable modem) but just missed.
Or are you calling a best buy TV and stereo a "home theater" if you did not have a projector, screen sound control on the walls, and a real integrated sound system you did not have a "home theater".
I find it cute when people call their TV and cheapie stereo a home theater.
P.S. if your surround sound decoder cost less than $3500.00 it's a cheapie toy.
Well, I've been upgrading parts here and there over the years. We had a Zektor HDMI switcher that swapped between the computers, the PS3 and the DirecTV. Had a Slingbox pro that piped stuff upstairs through the 1GB network. An older Panasonic AE700U projector projecting on a home-built 102" screen. Truly, the amp was a cheapie but the speakers were klipsch and the sub was an old NHT Sub-One. I had a Philips Pronto that I used to control the DirecTV, lights and the switcher, but no in-wall controls, so I guess it doesn't meet your criteria for a "true" home theater. *eyerolls*
Also, why waste your time, simply collect on your insurance and buy all new. You had homeowners insurance right?
Yes, of course. However if you read your fine print, you'll see that you can't buy flood insurance in the US from your insurance company unless you are in a flood plain (this is what I was told when I asked about it awhile back). If you want to get flood insurance, you need to get it through a federal program. Again, re-read the original post.