Intel Releases USB 3.0 Controller Interface Spec 374
hardsky submitted thrilling news about everyone's favorite interconnect cable by saying "USB 3.0 is set to deliver data-transfer speeds of up to 5Gb/s, initially over tweaked connectors and wiring and, later, over optical links."
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:One Question (Score:5, Funny)
Does USB 3.0 assist in the more rapid delivery of porn to my PC?
Why, yes of course! The internet tubes will be replaced with USB 3.0, which is easily done because USB hubs are very cheap. When this is done, everybody will have 5 Gb/s!
Not ready. (Score:5, Funny)
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I hear USB 6.0 is actually slower than USB 5.1
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
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No no no, that's Firewire, it's a completely different product.
Come On (Score:2)
If not even the editor posting a story isn't interested, I'd think that would be an indication that it might not be worth posting.
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Damn it.
Three edits later, and it still makes no sense. I obviously meant to say "If not even the editor posting a stroy is interested".
[Goes to hide in a corner until he's able to type again.]
Re:Come On (Score:5, Funny)
Damn it.
Three edits later, and it still makes no sense. I obviously meant to say "If not even the editor posting a stroy is interested".
[Goes to hide in a corner until he's able to type again.]
Hvae you seen taht rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy taht syas it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/ [cam.ac.uk]
Re:Come On (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Come On (Score:5, Interesting)
it might be because the characters aren't normal for her, since english is my second language and it's not a problem at all, but I use the same set of letters.
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Same thing here. English is mu second language, and I only had to stop once to recheck a single word while reading.
However, I did notice I was paying more attention (making more effort, maybe?) while reading it than I usually do.
Re:Come On (Score:5, Funny)
That's a lie and you know it. Nobody on slashdot has a girlfriend.
Re:Come On (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Come On (Score:4, Funny)
I am a girlfriend, you insensitive clod!
Re:Come On (Score:5, Funny)
Yes but the point is, no one on Slashdot HAS a girlfriend ...
Or ... err ... are you a girlfriend with a girlfriend on slashdot ... because that would be like ... whoa!
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I think this is pretty interesting. I'm going to write a little program to randomize text in this manner, and then I'll feed some ebooks through it. I wonder how readable chemistry texts will be after this kind of treatment.
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Thank you Riddley Walker.
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Yup. I have seen the research, and I clearly needed to step away from the keyboard.
Although I think my point stands, when the entire discussion on this article is on my crappy spelling and grammar, rather then the oh-so-exciting USB 3.0
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That does not actually work all that well if you really randomize the letters.
.
.
.
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Taht deos not aalstluy wrok all taht wlel if you ralely rzaomdnie the ltertes .
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typoed the "c"
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Re:Come On (Score:5, Funny)
You know firefox has a build in spell check these days, you might want to look into that.
Oh the irony...
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The problem is that build and built are both words and so a computer spell checker can't tell if you get them mixed up.
Actually, I can't tell if someone else gets them mixed up unless I force myself - the bizarre thing about reading is that if you're reading for meaning rather than spelling, errors like this get 'error corrected' away at some level beneath the conscious one, particularly if you're reading stuff on the internet where most people are pretty sloppy.
I suppose 'Grammar Nazis' just never learn th
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That's fine if people are trying to express "standard" or "normal" aka boring stuff.
If you are trying to communicate unusual meanings to somebody else, it doesn't work so well if you are sloppy.
On Slashdot I'm expecting the discourse to be on a higher level than "Me hungry. Want food", and that at least some people here will post stuff that is out of the ordinary and hopefully interesting.
In such a case, in addition to figuring out whethe
Re:Come On (Score:5, Funny)
You know firefox has a build in spell check these days, you might want to look into that
Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Still the same symmetrical plug design....stupid, stupid move. Would have been that hard to add a ridge on one side or something, so you don't have to stare at the end??
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Informative)
Embossing (Score:5, Informative)
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But I have four devices that have usb cords sitting here, and one of them is properly embossed.
In fact, one them that is not has a "mold mark" from cheap assembly on the *bottom* of the plug, which feels like an emboss mark if you didn't know better. (That would be the data cord for my phone, and it has the same mold mark at both the PC end and the micro-usb end, and both of them are on the bottom instead of the top)
I've taken to using a
But the USB socket is not (Score:3, Insightful)
Hub, use a hub, I said to use a hub (Score:2)
And how are you supposed to work out which way is "up" with a socket that is on a tower case or PCI bracket?
On the majority of USB hubs, up is obvious from the printing on the hub's case. For a tower case, up is generally away from the motherboard. PCI USB cards are less predictable, so I'd recommend using a hub with those. You should be using a hub anyway (or the front-panel sockets, if present) for any device that you routinely plug and unplug.
(subject explained [ytmnd.com])
Re:Embossing (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem is that the host-connector has no markings, and sometimes "up" might be either left, right, up or down relative the up of the device itself.
What they should have done, from the beginning of USB, was to have the connector truly symmetric, so that you could plug it in either way.
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What they should have done, from the beginning of USB, was to have the connector truly symmetric, so that you could plug it in either way.
Connecting +5V to ground with a wire is inadvisable. The magic smoke is let out of the chip, which then ceases to work.
Seriously, how many connectors out there do you know of that let you plug it in any way you feel like? All connectors have to be oriented so that the signals and power goes to the right place.
Please do not come if I ask for someone to jump my car.
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Maybe not symmetric, but "genderless". See Anderson PowerPole connectors:
http://www.powerwerx.com/assembly.asp [powerwerx.com]
No male/female parts, and there's only one way it will fit. Doesn't solve the problem of needing to line up the "tops" of each half of the connection.
It is possible, however, to have a plug/socket set that allows you to plug it in "up" or "down". You just need double the number of contacts as signals and put all your signals on one half of the plug and wire each signal wire in the socket to two cont
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Seriously, how many connectors out there do you know of that let you plug it in any way you feel like?
Oh, I don't know... Ever used headphones? [wikipedia.org]
How about at least some power [wikipedia.org] connectors? [phidgets.com]
I can't even imagine it being easier to manufacture this little square thing than to manufacture something, you know, round like that.
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Oh, I don't know... Ever used headphones?
Tip-ring-sleeve connectors on devices for home use don't often carry both power and signal. The iPod Shuffle is an exception.
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For starters, my car keys.
It can be done, but it requires duplicating contacts in an axially-symmetric way.
I would have been happy with a trapezoidal or semicircular connector.
Re:Embossing (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously, how many connectors out there do you know of that let you plug it in any way you feel like?
Vagina is the first one that comes to my mind.
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For starters, my car keys.
Yes, they're for starters.
*ducks* sorry, couldn't help it.
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What they should have done, from the beginning of USB, was to have the connector truly symmetric, so that you could plug it in either way.
Connecting +5V to ground with a wire is inadvisable. The magic smoke is let out of the chip, which then ceases to work.
Seriously, how many connectors out there do you know of that let you plug it in any way you feel like? All connectors have to be oriented so that the signals and power goes to the right place.
Please do not come if I ask for someone to jump my car.
Trivial, my dear Watson - just have two sets of contacts on the male connector
that are centrally symmetric. This way regardless of orientation you have proper polarity.
If you are worried about EM properties of the connector make the host have two sets as well - this way you will not have dangling ends.
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Done, it's dead easy. Even on one with the USB logo on one side and the D-Link logo on the other I could still tell the difference.
Sand down the cable (Score:2)
That's great, except I have USB cables that are either embossed on both sides, or embossed on the wrong side.
If your cable's connector has bumps on the bottom, sand them off before using the cable.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
Most UBB connectors have a USB symbol on one side which means (this side up). I'd never really thought about this until someone gave me an iPod. I then found that I was forever struggling to get the connector in.
What I concluded was happening was:
1. I'd sub-consciously worked out that the connector is inserted USB symbol up.
2. The Apple USB connector has the USB symbol on, but on the other side it has an Apple symbol.
3. My sub-conscious was in fact not distinguishing between USB symbol and Apple symbol. Instead the logic was something like, "that side has a symbol on, I'll put it facing upwards".
I'm quite sure that the "symbol faces up" convention is a part of the USB spec. I never needed to know this because my brain naturally worked it out without it ever entering my consciousness. This is a truly wonderful piece of human interface design and yet those morons from Apple go and break it with an inane piece of branding. Way to go Apple. Anyone who ever thinks that Apple cares about usability should think again.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Funny)
Try the correct way.
Try the other way.
Try the correct way again.
Look at plug
Insert screwdriver to bend plug back into shape
Try the correct way.
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I've not had that, though I have managed to ruin a lead and one of the ports on my desktop; I had something plugged in and caught the lead as I walked past. The plug ripped out of the port, leaving that internal bit in the port.
Oh well, I had plenty of other leads and ports...
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You forgot the step where you realized you stuck the USB connector into the ethernet slot. It fits, I kid you not.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
Plug rage (Score:2, Informative)
Don't laugh. I've seen power plugs glued to drives.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Funny)
Please stay away from my computers. Thanks.
Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)
I once worked with a guy who just broke things. We'd have the same laptop, and after about three months his had cracks in the case, missing keys, and half-torn out power connector. Mine would be pristine after over a year and a half, except the paint on the keycaps would be worn off.
The guy wasn't dumb or irresponsible, or even clumsy. He was just rough with machines.
Some people have a lighter touch with machines than others. My car is a standard, and when my wife drives it I wince every time she shifts and the transmission makes a "kerr-lunk" noise. When it's time shift she just steps on the clutch and shoves the shifter from one position to another. She doesn't take that tiny fraction of an instant to feel that point where the gears will mesh smoothly and silently or bother to get the engine RPMS just right.
It's not that our value systems are different or anything like that; we both regard the car as a way to get from point A to point B and other than that just an inconvenience. It's that she doesn't have that kind of unconscious awareness of what the car is up to that most drivers do.
Connectors of all sorts are sources of trouble in the real world. I've worked on mobile applications, and you wouldn't believe the difference in longevity of PDAs with a cradle and those that have to be plugged into a cable. I've seen tons of problems with proprietary connectors on cell phones. I've seen CF card slots torn off their PCBs by vigorous card insertion. Now I could probably insert a CF card ten times a day for ten years straight and never once do anything like that, but there are plenty of people who will do this, reliably, within a hundred insertions or so.
Connectors ought to be completely bulletproof and foolproof, simple to connect and disconnect, tolerant of rough or sloppy connection or disconnection, tolerant of accidental disconnection (as when a cable is snagged), but stay securely connected otherwise, and work consistently for thousands and thousands of connections and disconnections. Oh, yes, and if it goes on the end of the cable, a large person should be able to step on it without damaging it. That's a tall order, and no connector is perfect, but many connectors, particularly proprietary connectors, are truly awful.
Motorola for years on some of their phones had a connector that had teeny tiny little spring clips that were supposed to mate with teeny tiny little holes (if I recall) on the receptacle. This was,I suppose, supposed to give the connectors a positive lock. That was a stupid idea unless the receptacle is built like a piece of climbing equipment, but what was worse was that it was mushy and didn't give any tactile or auditory feedback. So people just shoved the cables in and yanked them out. Most of the cables I saw had the little spring clips broken off or bent after a month or two. Many of the phones had damaged receptacles and seriously bent or even ripped out connectors weren't unheard of -- from one of those rare occasions when the connectors did lock together.
The six pin firewire and full size USB "B" (device end) connectors are pretty good. The four pin Firewire and full size USB "A" (master end) connectors are middling-lousy. The mini-USB connectors on some PDAs and phone are reasonable, and a huge improvement over some of the proprietary connectors they often replace. I don't know about the USB EMU type connectors.
Barrel type power connectors are usually pretty good, although in some cases they are susceptible to causing equipment damage during accidental disconnect (the classic foot tangled in the power cord scenario). Some of them are fine, others tend to take a bit of the device with them when they go. There really ought to be a break away plug design where you plug a small flexible extension into things like laptops, unless the cord and connectors are designed to survive a strong sideways tug.
In any case, it's too damned bad that the type A connector is being kept. It's not the worst connector in common use. It's probably OK to plug your printer into your PC once and leave it there. But it's too fragile (both the male and female) for field use where connections are made frequently.
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Scary (Score:2)
Can you imagine how he puts on a condom?
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Funny)
If you push hard enough, it will go in the wrong way as well.
Re:Sigh (Score:4, Funny)
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I only ever use "safely remove" for USB drives, I've never had a problem with just yanking out other random USB devices. I don't think anything can be done about having to unmount your drives first. As it is now USB supports hot swapping the drives fine without unmounting first. I mean it won't damage the device, but what do you expect them to do with the data you were halfway through copying?
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3 things i hope they address:
* it's not UNIVERSAL serial bus if the other end of the cable is allowed to be proprietary. nightmare when travelling and you've forgotten your cable. it's never in the public interest to create a hidden cost (expensive proprietary cables)
+1! I HATE proprietary cables. Use the damn standards. THAT MEANS YOU APPLE! I don't care if they ALSO have a non-standard connector, but charging and data should be available via USB Mini-B (or the new micro-B if your device is REALLY small).
Great! (Score:4, Interesting)
Will we ever see a storage medium that can move data that fast?
Re:Great! (Score:4, Insightful)
Doesn't matter. It is a universal serial BUS.
This means that traffic to and from many slower storage devices can share the path so any speed increase is still a good thing, right?
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Re:Great! (Score:5, Informative)
simple answer: yes
Complicated answer:
Progress is inevitable and we definitely need that kind of speed. Its not only about hard drives but also about Audio visual components. Such as an USB HDTV Dongle which is a bit slow for USB 2.0. It is also one of the reasons why webcams currently max out at 2.0 megapixels. anything more than that the current USB 2.0 cannot handle. It is quite easy to eat through those 600MB/s, Just think of the USB 3.0 replacing 1000mbit ethernet.
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Just use an external raid hard drive rack, with 4 HD pushing over 1.5 gbs you'll max out the incoming bus speed already..
SATA 3GB in a software raid (Score:2, Insightful)
In theory, you could take two SATA 3GB drives and put them in a dedicated box that treated them as a software-driven RAID-0. That would give you peak theoretical data transfer of 6Gb/sec, but that's likely to happen only if you hit the drives' on-board caches. Connect that to your box using USB 3.0.
Of course, I'd probably prefer 1Gb/sec Ethernet, so I could see the data from my network not just one machine.
Seriously though, widespread use of the full bandwidth will probably not show up until 6-12 months a
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Well, first, I imagine it would make a USB 3.0 hub support far more of the slower variety.
But consider that USB 2.0 isn't fast enough for standard desktop hard drives, and it's obvious we do need more speed. Whether we need that much more speed is up for debate, but I'd argue that if we're going to spend all that money on an upgrade, we may as well make it as fast as we can, just in case.
My god (Score:5, Funny)
My humping USB dog [thinkgeek.com] will be a blur!
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Will it run Linux? (Score:3, Funny)
I for one, welcome our new dongle overlords.
I just like to say dongle.
Everyone's Favorite? (Score:5, Funny)
"hardsky submitted thrilling news about everyone's favorite interconnect cable..."
Don't know about anyone else, but my favorite interconnect cable is something very, very, different.
Re:Everyone's Favorite? (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)
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All this sexual innuendo is giving "hot-swapping" a whole new meaning...
Is this really faster? (Score:3, Interesting)
Will this really be faster or will it just be bigger chunks? Also, will this spec require more cpu overhead? My interest is not for SLR and video cams, but for live audio and instruments where speed, or latency is an issue. USB usually requires more cpu, is prone to more contention and overall offers lower quality for realtime audio processing. And why do people say its faster or higher speed? Maybe your transfers don't take as long, but I am willing to bet that small chunks won't see any benefit.
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"Almost certainly, because unlike Firewire, USB ports are "dumb" and all of the processing is done at the CPU. More data will mean more processing required. Whether the increase is linear or parabolic I cannot tell you."
The fact that it is designed and supported/sponsored by a CPU making company which will die if people don't upgrade their machines (CPUs) every year is just a co-incidence right? :)
Where is the "standars" body (Score:4, Insightful)
Intel has provided chipset makers with a draft specification for a USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller Interface (XHCI), making good a promise it made a couple of months ago.
I thought we had a standards body that would release such a spec to developers. This development in my opinion, might have other chip makers release a "renegade USB 4.0" promising new features and the like.
Question is; is it up to manufacturers to think of ideas, name them and release these to the general public? What's up with IEEE Standards group, whose global standards include Biomedical and Healthcare, Nanotechnology, Information Technology and Information Assurance among others?
Re:Where is the "standars" body (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Where is the "standars" body (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a USB standards group, of which Intel has historically been the driving force. The various USB logos are trademarks of that group, so any "renegade" claiming to have USB 4.0 would be committing a trademark infringement if they tried to decorate it using recognized symbols and logos.
USB remains one of the great industry success stories, designed by Intel and then licensed out at extremely low prices with a very inclusive policy. USB gained as much traction as it did because Apple used to insist on upwards of $1 in royalties per chip implementing Firewire, on top of the difficulty of implementing Firewire in the first place. The margins on peripheral chipsets are so low that there was no way to manufacture cheap Firewire devices at those prices. They still want too much in royalties even today, which is why budget motherboards never include Firewire, and no low-end devices connect using Firewire. Ever seen a Firewire flash drive?
Meanwhile Intel understands the concept of a truly mass market, and designed a simpler standard that uses less silicon to implement and less money for permission to implement. The price is higher CPU usage, since USB chips don't do very much work. Then Intel was clever enough to grab a golden opportunity and create a higher speed extension to the standard that suddenly brought it squarely in contention with Firewire, while being totally backwards compatible. Firewire answered, with Firewire 400, but without USB pushing them, they probably wouldn't have bothered to create a higher speed Firewire. Now Firewire 800 is on its way out, but going up against USB 3 at up to 5X the speed, while still having liberal licensing terms. Is it any wonder that camcorder manufacturers are jumping ship and abandoning Firewire?
What real world throughput? (Score:3, Insightful)
Will Intel be integrating the Larabee core into it's USB 3 host chips?
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Throughput will be just like real-world performance of 802.11b/g/n and USB 2.0. Claim some huge ass number, but reality ends up being nowhere near that value, but it doesn't matter because you can market it at the former.
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USB 2 does get the speed it advertises, but it advertises a misleading number. The 480Mb/s speed is the wire speed. This is the same as the 100Mb/s you get from ethernet - it's the speed bits are sent along the wire, not the speed at which you can transfer useful data. On top of this, you have a protocol which wraps each blob of data into one or more packets with some routing and error checking information. It will also intersperse timing and control signals into the bit stream.
The amount of overhead
eSATA? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm certain that USB3 will be "supposed to be" backward with USB 1; 1.1; 2, but will likely only be backwards compatible with 2. Right now, a Hard disk cannot keep up with eSATA at 1.5 Gb/s, nevermind eSATA at 3Gb/s. For the past year or so, many of us have been buying $15 eSATA cards for our old computers, and new computers with eSATA built in. Considering that external HD cases with eSATA connectors cost only about $16 (something with 4 eggs, at Newegg) what is the benefit?
Possible benefits would be increased transfer speed to peripheral devices, but can we reasonably expect devices that fast by then? Personally, I would hope that 10Gb/s ethernet would come down in price by then. The only real benefit I see with the proposed USB3 is something for a processor core to do....
$.02
PS: I will give a possible something to do mention to Hard Disk (Solid-State) video recorders... but they could use eSATA as well & still be saturated..
Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
Connector simplicity? (Score:2)
Don't have time to read the article, but historically one of the advantages of USB has been that almost any perpipheral, high speed, or low speed, can be plugged into the same type of connector, so users don't have to worry about which plug to plug the keyboard into, which for the mouse, which for an external hard drive, camera, thumb drive, etc. That is the real beauty of USB - the 'universal plug'. Which is one reason I'm worried about an 'optical' version of USB - because that would seem to require a new
at how much cpu and system bus load? (Score:2)
USB 2.0 can't even hit it's full speed and the slower fire wire 400 beats it and with firewire 1600 and 3200 that uses the same cables as fire wire 800. USB 3.0 that needs new cables to hit it full speed It will be a long time for it to get any ware and will 3.0 usb cards with there own cpu and heatsink on them?
5 GB/s (Score:2)
Now all they need to do is make a motherboard and hard drives that can push 5 GB/s though the bridge and stream the data to a hard drive that can actually write 5 GB/s.
Wouldn't that be great.
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I believe that firewire is peer to peer, while USB is master/slave. In theory that means that you can connect any two firewire-capable devices and have them talk to each other, which is not possible with USB (you need a hub). I've never actually tried that though, and so cannot personally confirm it.
Re:Where is FireWire going? (Score:5, Informative)
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I believe that firewire is peer to peer, while USB is master/slave. In theory that means that you can connect any two firewire-capable devices and have them talk to each other, which is not possible with USB (you need a hub). I've never actually tried that though, and so cannot personally confirm it.
The iPod was originally designed to be able to share files by simply connecting two iPods. Once the iTunes possibility presented itself, it was one of the first things to be disabled to satisfy record label interests, along with the ability to record audio.
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Wireless USB would be totally nonsensical, at least to me. It would break one of the most useful features of USB, the ability to charge/provide power to portable electronics and accessories.
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Pointless (Score:2)
We already have a wireless standard for this purpose. It's called Bluetooth.
USB means you can plug things directly in, and have them either charge, or be entirely powered by the socket. It also means you can physically see where it's plugged into your computer, and short of a freaky tempest attack, it's safe to enter your password on a wired USB keyboard.
Wireless means you don't have to deal with wires, but you do have to deal with batteries. It also means that unless you really understand what's going on,
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I would be OK with firewire going away if Firewire 3200 is outperformed by USB 3.0 without hogging to many clock cycles.
Define "too many" -- in my mind, it ultimately comes down to price. While it's overly-simplistic, a dual-core CPU costs about $50, and a triple-core costs about $100. A cheap firewire adapter is less than $20...
So, if it required a whole extra CPU, it would be a bad deal. But I doubt it requires that -- and at that price, it would have to be using more than $20% of the CPU, all the time, for firewire to make sense.
And that's assuming all other things are equal. In my experience, outside of a few niche high-
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It is not just the dependance on the processor that makes the "slower" FireWire 400 beat out USB 2.0 (the fast one... whatever they are calling that today). A rough outline:
1) FireWire allows devices to allocate a specific slice of time to their needs for a period of time. This slice of time can then be used exclusivly by the device to transmit that round of data. This keeps devices from interupting the flow durring those periods. USB has a part-way analog to this, but it is not nearly as efficent.
2) FireWi
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Person marked me as "flamebaiter" would be surprised but I am not really a big USB2 hater. For example, my colour laser is connected via USB2 and performing really good. Also my scanner, my time machine backup drive and so on.
I seriously wonder if Intel really stopped such childish "use CPU" or "don't include overhead in speed" tricks as they are in very good shape now.
I will plant 120 meters of cable just because of USB2 CPU overhead, imagine that. I seriously didn't know the overhead could hurt that much.