Toshiba To Launch "Super Charge" Batteries 202
ozgood writes in to let us know about Toshiba's announcement that it has developed a new type of rechargeable battery dubbed the Super Charge ion Battery, or SCiB. Toshiba claims the new battery will mainly target the industrial market, though they hint the technology may eventually find a home in electric vehicles. The SCiB can recharge to 90% of total capacity in under five minutes, and has a life span of over 10 years. "Toshiba also says the battery has excellent safety with the new negative electrode material having a high level of thermal stability and a high flash point. The battery is also said to be structurally resistant to internal short-circuiting and thermal runaway."
awesome! (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:awesome! (Score:5, Insightful)
it won't be that small travel charger and 5A cord
these things will need power cords roughly the size of the ones you use to connect to a generator or dryer (100A+) to move that many joules of energy that quickly without melting the cord itself. And the AC/DC transformer won't be a little travel wart either.
in other words, don't hold your breath
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good luck lugging around the power cord you'll need to charge these things
And the air conditioner. Even if the power cord doesn't act like a big fuse, the battery will turn into a griddle. Maybe it will incorporate an integrated Peltier plate or something.
Re:awesome! (Score:5, Insightful)
So the random laptop battery I have handy is rated 10.8V, 4.8Ah -- 52Wh. 5 minutes for 80% charge (from 10% to 90%, you're unlikely to let it go all the way to zero) is just shy of 500 watts. Your average wall outlet is easily capable of that (12A at 115V is a nice, conservative estimate). The power brick to handle that won't be huge -- think about a 500W computer power supply, and then remember that this will be noticeably smaller and more efficient because it only has to provide one output voltage instead of the mess your average computer wants. It'll need some cooling (even at a mildly aggressive but reasonable 95% efficiency, that's 25W of waste heat), but the fan will still be reasonable.
At first glance it would appear that the cable from power brick to laptop would be huge and awkward, but that can be solved fairly easily by having the connection be more like a docking station cradle. That would also let the charger supply additional airflow for the battery with a larger fan that you'd find on the laptop itself -- the battery will get rather warm during this process, and battery heating is probably one of the limiting factors on charge rates for something like this.
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Sure, but unless you up the DC voltage to the laptop, you're looking at 40A (@ ~12V) through the cord to your laptop. So you'd have a fairly bulky cord. Not a deal killer, but something to consider. Dunno how small you c
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In reverse order... My (very limited) understanding is that waste heat from charging is one of the main limitations to charge rate for normal batteries. As such, high charge rate capabilities in battery packs without special cooling implies higher charging efficiency. 90% charging efficiency therefore seems a conservative estimate to me.
That same Google paper is the one I was basing my 95% number on, in part. You'll note the part about "our servers' power supplies now run at 90% efficiency or better."
Re:awesome! (Score:4, Informative)
TFA says it can take 50 amps. It is a lithium cell, therefore 3.6 volts.
That is 1.6 amps at 120volts. Not a big deal (and yes, I didn't account for conversion losses so say 2 amps max at 120v). Now this is for your cell phone or PDA.
So, while your wall wart will grow some and will probably end up close to the unit being charged instead of being plugged into the wall, the power cord is fine and you won't be blowing any house breakers.
Now for your laptop at 20volts which is 5 or 6 cells, you will need 8.8 amps at 120v so say 10 amps total. Still not a deal breaker but you may need 18 ga wire in the power supply to wall connection instead of 20 or 22 ga. The thing that gets big here is the wire ga to the unit itself. Now THAT could be a problem so we will probably not see a full 50 amps into the unit itself. The physical space for the leads inside the cell phone, computer, etc, get a bit large.
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48V power supplies are readily available, not too expensive, and connectors aren't too bad.
Though this might end up pushing, at least for stuff like laptops, to put the power supply on/in the computer itself. Somebody mentioned a sled - might not be a bad idea.
Re:awesome! (Score:5, Funny)
I can't ever imagine myself saying "I think I'll have a beer, watch the game, and let the battery in my computer blow up."
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Well, some times are more inopportune than others.
Having the battery explode while the computer is sitting on a desk and you're having a beer watching the game is inopportune. Having the battery explode while you're working on the computer and it's in your lap, that's most inopportune.
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Re:awesome! (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:awesome! (Score:5, Funny)
So they have 220V 20A "dryer" outlets in airports? (Score:2)
Alternatively, you could make your power cord really short - build the charger to plug directly into the wall without a cord. But it would still be big.
What next - I'll be asking for a 408V 1000A 3-phase industrial drop to recharge my electric car in
Re:awesome! (Score:4, Interesting)
Either way, here's to hoping.
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No independent tests of an actual device, no products available for purchase incorporating it, etc...
The other issue with it is that for those crazy energy densities it requires crazy voltage levels... Not exactly tame for a portable consumer device. At least a car can incorporate additional insulation and devices to regulate the high voltages.
Super charge (Score:2)
Another article on SCiB (Score:4, Informative)
According to this article, hybrid cars will be the first use for these batteries.
As long as the energy density is comparable to current Lithium-ion batteries, then this will be some pretty cool tech.
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I would imagine that this will help speed the adoption of "plugin" hybrids, which let you recharge the batteries off the grid in between drives. Who knows, we might even see the ability to charge up your batteries while you fill up your gas tank, if the charge time is sufficiently short.
The biggest bonus to plugin hybrids, though, is probably the efficient use of the power grid - people will tend charge their cars at night, wh
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No, they'll come home from work and plug in immediately, when the load on the electrical grid is highest (at least during the summer)
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As the other responder said, this is easy to fix with a timer. Combine that with time-based electricity rates (kWH which cost a fraction at night of what they do during the day), and the incentives are there for consumers to efficiently use the grid.
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The problem there is chicken and egg - you'd need a lot of people driving electric cars before there is sufficient demand for Wendy's or Starbucks to put up a metered electrical outlet. People won't want to buy the cars unless they know they can take them
Cost as always is everything (Score:2)
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That being said, not destroying our planet is starting to matter to a larger number of people who are willing to take on the extra cost. I know I'd pay disproportio
How exactly do you get that much power IN? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Suppose my 45 WHr laptop battery could be charged in ten minutes. That's 240W -- say 500W, to account for conversion inefficiencies. The power cord to your hair dryer carries four times this much. That, in itself, isn't the problem.
The problem is, how much processing do we have to do to mains power to feed it in?
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If these are large batteries with many AH, how big of a power supply would you need to charge 90% of the battery in ten minutes?
Dude, haven't you seen Back to the Future?
Problem: top current (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Problem: top current (Score:5, Interesting)
Instead of a few pumps, you see a small parking lot. You pull into a space and hook up the charger. Then you go inside and get a meal, some coffee for the road, or just make a pitstop. You then go to the counter to check if the charge is complete and pay for the electricity you used. Go back out to your car, disconnect the charger, and you're ready to hit the road again.
Re:Problem: top current (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you hit the nail on the head - if they can get a charge down to under 10 minutes and the range up to 200+ miles, it will be quite popular.
Personally, I'd like to see some sort of inductive charger for batteries like this that I can use for a laptop. Rather than cabling everything up, you just rest your laptop on the mat within range for 10 minutes, and you're good to go.
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Now things are getting interesting, with that suggestion. Take it a step further - why not embed these inductive chargers (in cities) right into traffic intersections? Give yourself a boost while you're waiting on the red. If anything, it could be used for everything from c
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just one more step to infinity... (Score:2)
So, why not go all the way embed them all over along roads and streets? Do away with batteries entirely, except for very short stretches? All-terrain vehicles and others that need to drive in dirt roads could be hybrids.
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A cassettes/VHS tape at least used to have advantages over CD/DVDs, but CD/DVDs won despite being different.
For example, people might only be willing to wait 5-10 minutes while gassing up their car, but that's partially because it's their primary activity durin
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As long as you're setting things up from scratch, why not go a step further and put some sort of RFID system/sensor into the car/charger. Just stop anywhere, plug in your car, and electricity is automatically billed to your account.
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Gas stations obselete? (Score:3, Insightful)
Battery battery (Score:2)
The remaining question is: is it pronounced skeeb, skihb, skyb, seeb, sib, sighb, or throatwarbler mangrove?
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Maybe it's pronounced Featherstonehaugh [google.com]
Amps without volts (Score:5, Informative)
Dan East
Re:Amps without volts (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Amps without volts (Score:4, Informative)
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Cordless contractor equipment (Score:3, Interesting)
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Poor energy density (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the specs on their own website [toshiba.co.jp], the energy density for their modules is about 50 watthours per kilogram (24V * 4.2Ah / 2.0kg). At 50 Wh/kg they're barely competing with lead-acid batteries, and competing quite poorly with Nickel-metal batteries, which are near 100 Wh/kg and have proven safety and durability in vehicle applications.
Modern Li-ion cells (the ones that aren't even remotely pushing the safety envelope) are over 200 Wh/kg.
Mod Parent Up - please (Score:2)
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traction battery -> capacitor -> electric motor
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Yup. First vehicular use will be marine (Score:2)
If I could replace my 80Kg of domestic batteries with their effective 1440 watt hours of discharge for long life, with 80kg of these giving 4000 WH, I would be able to run twice as long with the same real
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I don't know anything about the Prius battery (or other hybrid batteries); sorry. I'm referring to larger traction batteries that we've installed in high-performance EVs.
State of the art Li-ion modules [from A123] are getting just over 100 Wh / kg at the moment.
A123 cells may be state of the art, and they do indeed appear to have high power d
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The energy density may be poor, but the fast recharge time may make up for it.
Nope, it won't. The recharge happens while you're doing other things -- like sleeping -- so the time savings are not worth trading 3/4ths of your range. 5-minute charging is also totally unrealistic -- see below.
Let's assume a pure EV using these batteries got a range of 150 miles, which is pretty lousy by most standards. The average
Energy Density 180kJ/kg (Score:4, Informative)
Tech Inversion (Score:2)
It's a good thing they didn't have to use anions: Super Charge Anion Battery just might not make as good an acronym.
Batteriy capacity is NOT why the burn (Score:5, Informative)
If this was the case a discharged battery would be safe, yet it contains just as much lithium as when it was charged, meaning it is still a fire hazard. The problem with lithium ion batteries is NOT their electrical energy density, it is the low activation energy of the chemicals they are made of.
To really put this in perspective, your cutlery and pots all contain A LOT of chemical potential energy. Burning iron in air releases vast quantities of it. Of course, because steel has a very good heat conductivity, and as the activation energy is high, you can't really set a piece of steel on fire at normal temperatures. If, on the other hand, you were to grind that iron into a fine powder, then you better make sure not to bring it close to sources of ignition as it will explode into a fireball.
Similarly, iron oxide doesn't burn in air because it is already oxidised, but if you mix it with aluminium powder, a strong reducing agent, then you got a Thermite mix which will burn at such a high temperature that it is little you can do but wait until it has completed. Even choking it doesn't work since it contains its own oxidiser.
The reason lithium ion batteries can catch fire is simply that lithium is easy to ignite. If the energy recoverable from a battery was directly related to how strongly it burns, then you would most certainly see batteries made from titanium or aluminium, and not lithium ( which releases a lot less energy when combusted than does many other metals ).
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Except that Lithium Ion batteries don't actually contain metallic lithium. They contain lithium ions -- ie, the lithium is already oxidized. That's true for both the charged and discharged state. Some other metal (cobalt traditionally, I think iron and a couple others are used in newer experimental chemistries) is being oxidized and reduced. Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] has more about the relevant electrochemistry.
Non-rechargable lithium cells (most 3V coin type cells) have metallic lithium. The rechargable chemistries
Are these the holy grail for home power gen? (Score:2)
Let's say I have a biodiesel powered, water cooled generator (so that I can use the excess heat to warm my house or water or ?) or a wind-turbine, or some other peaking power source providing most of my house juice, along with a bank of these batteries. Plus the ability to use the house pack to charge a hybrid electric family vehicle with say a sixty mile range before I have to kick in the car's bio-diesel driven engine. Or vice versa: the vehicle's bio-diesel engine can be used to charg
the catch (Score:2)
at least 12 amps of charging current (14 gauge wire). A laptop with a 5 amp/hr battery would require 60 Amps to
charge (That's 6 gauge wire needed!).
Regenerative Braking (Score:3, Interesting)
time to ... (Score:2)
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What about storage density?? That's the big question.
Storage density is not as relevant, when you can recharge in 5 minutes.
If you're traveling somewhere you won't be able to recharge, then use an older, higher capacity battery. Otherwise, who cares if you're recharging every 2 hours (or whatever) if it only takes 5 minutes to do so?
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Re:Storage Density?? (Score:4, Insightful)
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/10/031015031752.htm [sciencedaily.com]
a researcher at the University of Missouri-Columbia discovered that the development of a plug-in fuel cell hybrid, with as little as 20 miles of range from rechargeable hydrogen, could cut the amount of gasoline consumed in the United States by more than 50 percent. In addition, this technology could be mass produced in the next five years.
"About 47 percent of al
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Given that the current advice in the UK is to stop for at least 15 minutes every 2 hours (instead of zoning out/nodding off and getting rather too cosy with the crash barrier), it could do us rather a lot of good.
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And let's do some math, shall we? Gasoline prices of $3/gal, with a car that gets 30 mpg (average consumer vehicle on the road is just under 20, thanks to old cars, SUVs, RVs, guzzling pickups, etc). That's ten cents per mile. An electric car with a range of 175mi that gets about 150Wh/mi (about average for the crop
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Some math (Score:2)
Let's see, 150 Wh/mi * 175 miles = 26250Wh.
26250Wh filled in 5 minutes, 26250Wh / (5 min /60 (min/hr)) = 315000W. This number is pretty impressive. It's at the scale of a Mini hydro.
Assume 1% of energy become heat inside the battery during the charging, that will be a 3150W heater in your battery.
Do you smell something smoking?
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3150 / 5 minutes = 630W, the equivalent energy of the sun falling on about 7 square feet on a bright, sunny day. Or the heat of a full-tower computer with all its drive bays full and a powerful motherboard and graphics card inside. Why do you think this would be hard to cool? Sounds a lot easier to cool than a gasoline engine, which requires a big, liquid-cooled radiator.
However, yes, charging will almost certainly require
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on my trip from home to college, i have a one hour stretch with no gas stations of any kind (this is on an interstate), good luck getting a charging station.
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Re:Reassuring to know... (Score:4, Funny)
WAIT A MINUTE!
Boys, we have a woman posted among us! Oh, dear Slashdot...
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(By GF also thinks that I am sexist pig and has no sense of humour
Lighten up, bud, go watch some MWC episodes.
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