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Robotics Biotech Space Science Technology

NASA Performs Zero-G Robot Surgery for Mars, Iraq 106

Posted by Zonk from the not-sure-i'd-trust-that dept.
An anonymous reader writes "With rapid-response surgery needed in Iraq and super-long-distance medicine a far-off necessity for a manned trip to Mars, NASA recently sent eight astronauts, roboticists and surgeons on its 'Vomit Comet,' pitting real doctors against new robotic ones. As if the prospect of a portable robo-OR deploying to Iraq by 2009 weren't enticing enough, one of the surgeons on board promised this in his flight blog: 'So far, surgery by hand is still the most efficient way to get the job done in a mobile, extreme environment. But robots are advancing rapidly... The solution that roboticists are working on now is to CAT scan a patient's entire body and beam the results back to Earth. Then a surgeon could program an operation and beam it back to upload into a robo-surgeon, which could carry out procedures like a player piano.'"
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NASA Performs Zero-G Robot Surgery for Mars, Iraq More

NASA Performs Zero-G Robot Surgery for Mars, Iraq

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  • I'm sure (Score:2, Interesting)

    by moogied ( 1175879 )
    I'm sure someone is going to write:

    "I don't know if I trust a robot to perform surgery on me.. i mean what if it crashes?"

    To them I will simply remind you that whenever you go under any type of surgery if the "system crashes" you're dead or at least in big trouble. Having heart surgery? If the pumping machine dies, you go with it. Having tonsils removed? What if the thermal blade(or laser) they are using suddenly goes ape shit and burns you too hot, or misfires? You're screwed.

    Point is, its more c

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by trolltalk.com ( 1108067 )

      You're already in trouble if you need open heart surgery. The risks are "acceptable", considering the alternatives.

      The mars scenario, on the other hand - the idea of scanning someone and waiting for advice won't work. Even if they could be scanned in zero seconds, and a diagnostic reached in zero seconds, the time delay is between 10 and 50 minutes..Heck, look what happens with only a 4 minute delay http://www.jamesoberg.com/2004marsconquest.html [jamesoberg.com]

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Sanat ( 702 )
        that was some experience -simulated of course. Imagine what it would be like to have even a greater time lag between communication.

        Thanks for sharing the URL

         

    • Re:I'm sure (Score:5, Funny)

      by Arthur B. ( 806360 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @12:07PM (#21255995)
      A quick internet search will show there's no ground for your blame of capitalism. In the future we'll have robotic sex-slave with downloadable procedures. The day the bj.bite virus hits is going to be a very sad day.

      • A quick internet search will show there's no ground for your blame of capitalism. In the future we'll have robotic sex-slave with downloadable procedures. The day the bj.bite virus hits is going to be a very sad day.

        So you're telling me Lorena Bobbitt is teaching programming now?

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Big Hairy Ian ( 1155547 )
      It does give BSOD more emphasis
    • It sure gives The Blue Screen of Death a whole new meaning!

  • Beware ... (Score:3, Funny)

    by foobsr ( 693224 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @10:51AM (#21255037) Homepage Journal
    which could carry out procedures like a player piano.'

    ... if the patient is not well tuned.

    CC.

    • Paging Dr. Joplin... (Score:4, Funny)

      by Rob T Firefly ( 844560 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @11:19AM (#21255397) Homepage Journal
      I, for one, can't wait to have my life-saving surgery done with a ragtime score.
      • Funny that is, but wait until you have to pay for the right to the "score" that is used to "perform" the surgery on you're loved one and SIAA (surgical industry AA) is knocking on your door wanting to look at your hard drive to see if you made that available over the internet for others to use. Sure it's one thing, and fair-use mind you, to go ahead and do the operation on you sister, kid, neighbor, they can't really stop that. But if you leave that thing lying on the front porch and people start doing thei

  • It will work like this: (Score:5, Funny)

    by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @10:51AM (#21255047) Journal
    sternum cut... done. Pericardium incision ... done. Heart stop ... done. ....buffering.....

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Hanners1979 ( 959741 )
      If you don't have private health insurance, you'll end up with RealSurgeon, that fills you with tracking devices, then starts buffering data endlessly and kills you in the process.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by timeOday ( 582209 )
      "SRI wants to move away from remote telesurgery and closer to autonomy. The company plans to build a system for NASA that could treat an astronaut on Mars, where communication delays of more than 20 minutes would make telesurgery impossible. "

  • Propogation Delay? (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    How do they plan on performing surgery to someone on mars? There is a rather large prorogation delay, even if data is sent at the speed of light, this is not fast enough to perform surgery. Things happen quickly, the surgeon needs feedback, etc. If the surgeon cuts a little too much, he won't know for 10 seconds, after cutting way too much? I'd rather have an untrained pilot (or the doctor they send to mars) perform surgery.
    • That's apparently the whole purpose of their work: to have the robot work solo from a human-produced procedure.

      • Re:Propogation Delay? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Entropius ( 188861 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @11:12AM (#21255327)
        Right, but the idea is that simply recording motions from the doctor and playing them back with a robot won't work.

        The player piano only works because a piano is a predictable, static thing. It responds in exactly the same way to the same stimulus, every time. The body is not. Fast-acting feedback mechanisms are important for all sorts of things, from maintaining balance to doing surgery.

        If we're using musical metaphors: if you take a choir and teach them a piece, then give them earplugs and ask them to perform it, they'll drift out of tune rather quickly; singers rely on constant aural feedback to stay in tune with each other.
        • So it's tough. Preferably the computer would be programmed to recognize things like bleeders and react accordingly.

          We're working on machines that can operate on an unrestrained eyeball - lids are clamped out of the way, but the eye is free to move. That's pretty awesome right there.
          • That machine is still only having to compensate for two degrees of freedom (phi, theta), though. It's frickin' cool, but not something I'd want doing general-purpose surgery where any number of things can happen.

    • >" performing surgery to someone on mars? There is a rather large prorogation delay, even if data is sent at the speed of light, this is not fast enough to perform surgery. Things happen quickly, the surgeon needs feedback, etc. "

      The delay isn't 10 seconds - its between 10 and 50 minutes, depending on the relative positions of the two planets. By the time they see the cuts not in the right place, the problem will have solved itself - the patient will be dead.

  • Well Duh (Score:5, Funny)

    by Wellington Grey ( 942717 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @10:54AM (#21255095) Homepage Journal
    the robot seemed to hold its own--until its compensation software was turned off. "The difference was huge," Kamler says. "It was virtually impossible [for it] to tie a knot."

    Well, you try turning off some vital part of the human surgon and see how well he does.

    The human surgon did very well until we removed his eyes. "The difference was huge," said the robotic overload. "Not only could he barely tie a knot, but he also couldn't stop screaming."

    -Grey [luminiferous-aether.net]
    • On a serious but related side when using those robots on battlefield, a robot does not suffer from stress in a dangerous environment and will therefore stay at 100% efficiency until actually damaged (at this point, a human doctor won't be very usefull either).
      • Worse, a damaged human surgeon is likely to take out two surgeons (IE him and somebody to work on him), while you discard the robot and stick a spare(that you hopefully have) in.
    • the robot seemed to hold its own--until its hydraulic fluid leaked out. "The difference was huge," Kamler says. "It was virtually impossible [for it] to tie a knot, let alone move its arms."

      On a more serious note, unless they plan on deploying these things in the rear lines of Iraq, this is going to turn into another armor and weight versus speed and efficiency battle. If AK-47's can punch through kevlar armor, what are the chances of a mobile-OR robot surviving a some shrapnel? One or two lucky hits can

  • brilliant (Score:3, Funny)

    by circletimessquare ( 444983 ) <circletimessquar ... m ['gma' in gap]> on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @10:54AM (#21255107) Homepage Journal
    1. use robot surgeon to excise iraq from earth
    2. float iraq to mars in zero G
    3. use robot surgeon to graft iraq onto mars
    4. iraq problem solved!

    that's what the article was about, right?

    what is this RTFM acronym i keep seeing mean?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Obvius ( 779709 )
      ..unless you happen to live in Iraq.

    • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

      by Grandiloquence ( 1180099 )
      I'm guessing this is what it will take to finally get the neocons to support manned space exploration. After all, we'll need to fight the terrorists "over there" instead of "over here"!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rvw ( 755107 )

      what is this RTFM acronym i keep seeing mean?
      It means: Return To F*cking Mars, but strangely enough applies mostly to those posting it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mcrbids ( 148650 )

      what is this RTFM acronym i keep seeing mean?

      Wow. Not only not RTFA but not RTFC!?!? (comments) Ain't nobody here saying RTFM around here, but you wouldn't know that since you have to READ SOMETHING to find that out...

      This is like a fractal post - it recurses into itself to infinity...

  • In Soviet Russia the robot operates YOU!
  • hmm, most player pianos I'm familiar with aren't full of pulsating liquids and big squishy things -- some of which are rather important -- that move around when you touch them. Not clear the analogy works that well unless there are plans to freeze the patient solid before proceeding.
    • hmm, most player pianos I'm familiar with aren't full of pulsating liquids and big squishy things -..
      ___

      Yep, those full of squishy things are piano players.
    • All you need to do is replace the human with a robot human, that way he won't be so squishy, and moving.
  • How do they propose to compensate for all of the uncountable variables involved in surgery? Humans are imperfect, messy, squishy things to work on. It would be tricky enough to get a robot to reliably do repair work on electronics that have been out in the field -- let alone to do repair work on nonstandard, moving, ill-defined human parts.

    Even if the surgeon back on Earth does a great job and is extremely careful, what happens if some part of the patient moves a bit? A surgeon would see this and make a c
    • On a general case, I would agree with you, but the robot is designed to be used in cases where there is no surgeon withing a million km radius (for an interplantary mission, do you want a real doctor plus his backup in case he will be injured or a machine and two more scientists? you may want the former, but the later means way more bang for the buck) or not enough to waste them on the battlefield, where some guys could be saved by a quick and dirty intervention aimed at stopping their bleeding and keeping
      • At least for on earth combat use - you'd be able to have real surgeons standing on hand to make near realtime adjustments. You could even have him teleoperate, though ideally a surgeon robot wouldn't be limited to human movements.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by FlyByPC ( 841016 )
          Teleoperations when there is no real delay seems fine; a human operator could easily correct for any changes. That sounds like a great idea. Where I don't see it working well is where you have large (say, >500ms) latency, and it becomes difficult or impossible for a surgeon to see what is happening in time to correct for it.
          • Which is why I specified on earth operations. It'd quickly become untenable for space work. You need a much more capable robot for that.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by datablaster ( 999781 )
      ambitious plan--perhaps too ambitious. why not start with a robotic ointment-squeezer or band-aid applier...see how that works out first
  • I don't remember Vonnegut mentioning the fate of that profession in Player Piano. I'm imagining it would have been replaced with machines like everything else but engineering and management. Though reading it in the early 2000s I realized that really, machines will eventually design machines (they already do a fair portion of the work with things like automatic place-and-route), and at least middle management is conceivably replaceable.

    Vonnegut's musings on the impact on the human soul aside, it's still p
    • Not give them weapons? Bah, a robot has no need for weapons! I ask you, what self respecting robot can't crush a puny meatbags skull with it's bare hydraulic fist?

  • which could carry out procedures like a player piano.

    I'm pretty sure this must be an inaccurate way of describing it. A player piano works open-loop.. no feedback is involved. An open-loop surgical robot would simply carry out the instructed movements in a straight-forward way --- no matter whether it's cutting the right tissue or poking a hole in the wrong place.

    I think the article is trying to describe a more intelligent robot which actually uses visual and sensing feedback to tell whether it's doing

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DFDumont ( 19326 )
      High speed communications does not solve the issue of the speed of light limit. Latency measured in seconds can be achieved simply by bouncing a signal off an orbiting satellite. Even sub-second latency that you'd get by crossing a few states, or an ocean, would be enough to be the difference between stopping the scalpel before it nicked the heart muscle - or not. Without fully confining the motion within the scope of the area of treatment - i.e. the robot has to know what its doing and must know when to
  • You want to strap my anesthetised body on to a gurney over which crouches a robot on autopilot with scalpels for fingers and programmed to cut me up? No thanks... I'm ready to die the good old fashioned way...

  • Cool, but possibly taking the wrong approach. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by moosesocks ( 264553 ) on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @11:09AM (#21255283) Homepage
    Forgive me for possibly being naive, but wouldn't it possibly be a LOT more practical to simply keep a highly-skilled physician on board the mission?

    After all, ocean ships have been doing this for hundreds of years. Today, Antarctic expeditions usually have a surgeon on hand, along with a minimally stocked OR, because it's virtually impossible to get anything to or from the interior regions of the continent in the wintertime.

    Given that a good portion of the research NASA does is biological in nature, I imagine that there are quite a few individuals who are already qualified for this role. Sending a trained doctor to Mars seems like a no-brainer.

    On the other hand, sending a CAT Scan machine up into orbit (and then to Mars) seems hilariously over the top. On the list of big and bulky machinery, CAT Scan machines are pretty high up there. Why not send a locomotive and some track up so that we can drive around on the surface once we get to Mars? After all, they're fast and energy-efficient!

    On the other hand, if they were developing a similar technology, but remained focused on keeping it cheap and portable, the applications for it would be HUGE. It'd still be fantastic on the battlefield, and could also be used in remote regions (especially in developing nations) where the local population cannot support having highly-specialized doctors in their area.
    • Agreed. A ship's surgeon seems like a better idea to me... is this another case of "the russians use a pencil"?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Firethorn ( 177587 )
      What if it's the surgeon who gets sick/injured and needs surgry? Killed in an accident? Now we're up to two needed.

      Surgeons are becomming specialized - what if the operation is a complicated one? A telepresence capable robot would be a better option.

      Given enough development, a robotic surgeon can do more complex tasks faster than a human. Like the one designed to be able to work on a mobile human eye. A heart would be easy after that. Imagine, open-heart surgury while the heart is still beating.

    • Forgive me for possibly being naive, but wouldn't it possibly be a LOT more practical to simply keep a highly-skilled physician on board the mission?

      Not really - because after months-to-years of no surgical practice, he isn't going to be a highly skilled physician anymore. On top of which, there isn't going to be enough room on the crew who isn't wearing at least two hats, which mitigates against having more than average skill (if that) as a surgeon.

      After all, ocean ships have been doing this for

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kabocox ( 199019 )
      On the other hand, if they were developing a similar technology, but remained focused on keeping it cheap and portable, the applications for it would be HUGE. It'd still be fantastic on the battlefield, and could also be used in remote regions (especially in developing nations) where the local population cannot support having highly-specialized doctors in their area.

      This is NASA. Cheap isn't in their vocabulary. They'll get a CAT scan machine the size of a book and be quad redundant as well. Only problem i

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by NMerriam ( 15122 )

      Forgive me for possibly being naive, but wouldn't it possibly be a LOT more practical to simply keep a highly-skilled physician on board the mission?

      That's great, but what happens when the surgeon gets hurt? Or what happens when your highly skilled endocrine surgeon suddenly has to deal with brain damage? There are hundreds of surgical specialties, and no way any surgeon -- or team of surgeons -- could be prepared to handle them all. Unlike Antarctica, you can't get on the phone or video link with a speci

      • Hmm... I'm not entirely convinced...

        For one, TFA doesn't make any mention of the system being completely autonomous -- look at the picture right up front. Likewise, the trials certainly didn't have anything like a 30 minute delay added to them.

        I'd imagine that the cases where a semi-autonomous robot would require intervention would be the same cases where an inexperienced doctor would need to phone back for help.

        That said, the number of medical conditions you're even remotely likely to encounter in space w

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by NMerriam ( 15122 )
          This one particular experiment isn't intended to solve every problem in space medicine. There are dozens of groups working on different aspects of these problems.

          Nobody wants a completely autonomous system -- I don't think even a semi-autonomous one is on anyone's radar for actual use. But using robotics and haptics as a guide, as a training platform, as an assistant, those are all things very high on the list of medical schools around the world as well as NASA. Nobody is going to Mars without a pretty comp

    • [snip]...and could also be used in remote regions (especially in developing nations) where the local population cannot support having highly-specialized doctors in their area.

      Not to be a dick, but why do you think that a doctor is needed in the sick, isolated, poor parts of the world? So that the population will grow at an even faster rate than it already does? They don't have the food or resources to sustain themselves now, why create a situation in which they will have to distribute their few resources about even more people?

      Or do you want to send them your food and your money as well? Including paying for the doctors who are ensuring that they will live to need it?

    • Forgive me for possibly being naive, but wouldn't it possibly be a LOT more practical to simply keep a highly-skilled physician on board the mission?

      The latest technology is almost always impractical, by definition. Using robots to make cars used to be impractical. The point of R&D is to further technology with good prospects of becoming practical. I think this is great research. Using human surgeons with 16 years of training for every operation is simply not working. Many people worldwide die ea

  • New Amazon Service (Score:3, Funny)

    by nacturation ( 646836 ) <nacturation&gmail,com> on Tuesday November 06, 2007 @11:17AM (#21255375) Journal
    I'll wait until Amazon rolls out the sequel to its Mechanical Turk concept, the Mechanical Doc. You pay thousands of people $1 each to perform incisions, clamp stuff, remove this, stitch up that, and voila! Open source surgery! After all, one pair of eyes may not be able to spot a problem but thousands of eyes should be able to correct any ailment.
     

  • You mean? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by iminplaya ( 723125 )
    They can't be doing this in that big ol' fancy space station they got up there? Hmm, I thought this was the kind of stuff it was built for.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by NMerriam ( 15122 )

      They can't be doing this in that big ol' fancy space station they got up there? Hmm, I thought this was the kind of stuff it was built for.


      It costs a couple thousand dollars to get space and time on the plane -- it costs a couple million to get space and time on the ISS. Most taxpayers would agree it's a good idea to make sure we only spend the millions on things that have already been tested as far as they can possibly go using less expensive means.
  • Simply send T-1000's into Iraq. If it moves, kill it!
  • One of the problems that human surgeons sometimes have when working from CAT scans is that the organs inside the body tend to move around and change shape after you cut it open. As the incision spreads, pressure is relieved and of course fluids can be released, changing the internal geometry. Are they really going to steer the scalpel with the pre-incision geometry?

    I suppose for massive trauma injuries, it might be OK, but it seems like interactivity is a pretty strong general requirement for surgery.
    • One of the problems that human surgeons sometimes have when working from CAT scans is that the organs inside the body tend to move around and change shape after you cut it open.

      ARF! ARF! ARF-ARF!

      "What is it, Lassie? Timmy fell in a well? Engineers have solved the problem of patients that move while they are being treated?"

      The present design of the CyberKnife derives from the original concept of a frameless alternative to frame-based radiosurgery. The CyberKnife consists of three key components: 1)

  • Did I get that right, that they want a robot to perform rapid response surgery in space by having it CAT scan the patient, send the data back and wait for a real surgeon to program the actual surgery and then send it back? By the time the CAT scan results arrive on earth, the patient will already be dead. Then again, that makes the robot's work much easier, because he will have a stable, non-moving target to work on, when the surgery data arrives back on mars 4 hours later. Rapid response surgery is somethi
    • Minor nitpick: the greatest distance between the Earth and mars is about 400 million kilometers. Signal time lag would then be 20mins each way (so 40 mins between sending a signal and receiving a response), not 4 hours.
      • I'm aware of this. What you seem to forget is that the real surgeon will not be able to perform the programming surgery in a nanosecond. So, assuming data travels 20 minute to earth, where a surgery team is ready to diagnose the problem and perform a dummy surgery, and then data travels back for another 20 minutes. you have 40 minutes for data travel alone, plus any amount of time it takes to diagnose and operate the ailment. Minor surgery might take only 15 minutes to operate, but the more complicated stuf

  • Just let me die on Mars without mutilating me with a robot. The damn thing wouldn't even know if I was knocked out or not. Just give me a good supply of morphine in the event of an emergency, I'll make sure I go peacefully. This sounds like doing surgery with a milling machine. When we have human level AI, maybe. A "blind knife", no way.

    In the event that I was to die on Mars, I'd request that you leave me there. My corpse would be smiling and flipping you all off from across the solar system.

  • "Please state the nature of the medical emergency."

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Sanat ( 702 )
      Finally a real purpose for Clippy. Even the name is appropriate.

      "You seem to be trying to perform an open heart surgery..."
  • I didn't realise that Iraq had no gravity.
  • as a physician, i realize how much resource you need to do things that are routine. when i perform surgery, there has to be nurses pre, inra and post operatively. we need anesthesia, sterile equipment,etc. it's amazing what has to run right in order to get things done. you then have to get that into space, and then do surgery? that's going to be an interest problem to overcome.
    • Your tagline: Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony

      A physician that can quote Monty Python...... As long as your next words aren't, "It will have to come out!!!!"

  • Many people are afraid of doctors, and many people are afraid of robots. And a few are hemophobic. Combine all three and you will have a very interesting situation if wakes up in the middle of surgery. Yikes.

    • Hold on a sec:

      Combine all three and you will have a very interesting situation if the patient wakes up in the middle of surgery

      There we go. Why oh why do I never use the preview button?
  • .... will it run Vista?
  • This guy either has 3 hearts or you should take your radio outside.

  • Mars and Iraq (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by merikari ( 205531 )
    This is wildly off topic... wait no it isn't. Iraq and Mars in the title are just too excrucuiating for most people who want the a manned Mars mission to happen. Enough already. With the price of Iraq you USians would already be in Mars. For example, with Mars Direct, with the initial price tag of $55 million, you could have set up several missions already (even if the estimate would be doubled or tripled) for the price tag of the Iraq Invasion.

    Sadly, I believe that you have a president who really couldn't
  • It seems to me that sending an operating room to Mars to serve a crew of 10 or less is a HUGE waste of taxpayer dollars. With all due respect to the astronauts, Lewis and Clark did not have a mobile OR robot, and they did just fine.

    For the millions or billions this system would cost, we could build a couple Earthside hospitals and save some innocent kids or something.

    The ONLY possible rationale for building this would be if it would lead to expanded capabilities here on Earth, but I still don't think we sho
  • This is another example of capitalism's drive to de-skill the work force. Having lots of highly skilled and highly paid surgeons on staff is a drag to the enterprising HMO's bottom line. Instead the HMO-run hospital of the future will have one or two surgery programmers on call at any one time, being asked to program dozens of surgeries in one day. The modern surgeon will end up just like many machinists did when lathes and mills went CNC, out of work with an obsolete skill (but way more school loans).

    Th
  • I've got an idea. How about the troops don't get shot in the first place, lol. If they invented a powerful, mobile force shield generator, they could put it on troops and also use it on spaceships to Mars and it would be a better use of technological investment money.
  • . . .welcome our scalpel-wielding remote controlled robotic surgeon overlords. . .er. . .sumpin'. . .

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