Small Electric Car May Usher In Big Changes 575
An anonymous reader sends us to a profile in CNNMoney.com on a Norwegian car company that is building a compact, plug-in electric car, the Think City, that will go on sale in Europe early next year. It could hit US markets in 2009. The CEO is working with Silicon Valley VCs and with Google, Tesla Motors, PG&E, and Dean Kamen, inventor of the Segway. Plans are to sell the car only on the Web. No dealers, cheap manufacturing plants, and a battery pack that you lease, not buy — there's potential here for shaking up the auto industry the way Dell did PCs.
Big Changes, huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
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They don't need rolling gyroscope toys. There are few good economic applications of Segway; it's niche and its hype was, well, hype.
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The option is neat when it's available -- but it's not.
This [gemcar.com] is a good option, though -- which I've considered. Still too pricy for the options I want, but it's getting closer.
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Of course, same drive during the non-peak hours was 20-25 minutes at an average speed of 50-60MPH, which only goes to highlight how incredibly inefficient and wasteful our 9-5 culture is.
Re:Big Changes, huh? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Big Changes, huh? (Score:5, Informative)
And for Europe the price isn't bad, particularly as many countries have lower taxes for electric cars. Most people commute short distances where speed is limited anyway (I'd challenge anyone to try to get anywhere near top speed with this car in London during rush hour - average speed is between 10 and 15 mph), and so the limitations of this car means very little to most people. Since gas is more expensive here too, it can be economical at quite a higher price point than in the US.
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This may be true, but using taxes to artificially distort markets into what some people in Europe would call socially egalitarian outcomes is generally very bad economic policy since it masks the inefficiencies of particular economic choices from the consumers actually making them resulting in a dead weight loss to the economy. If these technologies are better then let them compete on the merits, but it
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I really don't NEED 100+ mile range. I'd be happy with the 30 mile range of the GEMs for all my local stuff.
Re:Big Changes, huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
I suppose you own the gasoline that goes into your car, but your relationship to it is transitory. It is consumable.
Your relationship with your car battery is somewhat more enduring, but it still is a consumable, what's more it is a consumable that presents you with a disposal problem at the end. Leasing the battery saves you this trouble, and makes it much easier and more efficient for the manufacturer to recycle it -- into more batteries.
I think the magic number here isn't $5000, it's more like $20,000. You would not want such a small car with a 112 mile range to be your only car, but most households have two, and increasingly often three or even more cars. If you could buy it at the same price as your next ICE car, it'd be more than viable, and help alleviate the parking problem in many households. There are four people in the house next to me, and there are four SUVs and a motorcycle. One or two of these could easily be a car like this, especially if the Stirling engine was an option that could be bought for, say $5000.
Come to think of it, one of the cool things about the Stirling engine is that you could share it, or you could keep it when you traded in your old car. It'd be much more like a one time investment.
The main obstacle to this car in this country is that Americans have become such friggen stick in the muds. We've been top dog for so many years we've gotten allergic to change. I don't know if many people noticed, but the most significant thing in this article for me was how close this thing was to production, then was dropped by Ford when the CA regulations were dropped. Our big companies, it seems, only innovate when there's a regulatory gun to their head.
If a significant number of second household cars, and most if not all third household cars were like this, we'd take a pretty big bite out of our foreign oil dependency problem for no real practical inconvenience.
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Um... so? Keep in mind that the article points out an attempt to target an AMERICAN market.
And at an estimate of $7.3 per gallon, you can expect to get about 27 gallons of gas for the same cost of the estimated $200/month "battery fee" (not counting the cost of electricity).
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The United State of America is BIG.... (Score:3, Insightful)
most Americans live in urban/suburban areas (Score:3, Informative)
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I dunno, they may rename this to the iCar...in which case it does not have a user replaceable battery.
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ummm, no. (Score:4, Insightful)
Other than possibly streamlining the car buying process, how does electric car company compare to Dell? It's not like people in the US are jumping to replace their SUVs and trucks with little electric cars.
Re:ummm, no. (Score:5, Insightful)
Almost...
Several years ago, when gasoline prices doubled, I noticed a hell of a lot more old and small cars on the road... Cars that you could barely sell months before, seemed to be at every stop light. Their only possible positive attribute being their 35MPG fuel economy.
Hybrids have been a huge hit over the past couple years. So, given the lack of any fully electric cars, that's about as close an equivalent as you can get. I'd say people are at least clamoring for SOMETHING different. The rich aren't going to toss their leather-clad Hummers, and those that need trucks will continue to buy them, but I expect there's a whole lot of demand in the market for some, ANYTHING that doesn't use up lots of gasoline.
Hybrid SUVs are coming... and they will rule. (Score:3, Interesting)
Combine this with the fact that many new technologies being developed to create hyper efficient small cars can also easily be adapted for big vehicles and pretty soon you'll be back to where you started.
In fact, its far easier to make the big SUV and trucks this way. They have more slack in their price than small cars meaning
Re:Diesel is coming... and they will rule. (Score:4, Informative)
Diesel is going to make a bigger impact that hybrids in the coming years.
Re:Diesel is coming... and they will rule. (Score:4, Interesting)
They already have, in Europe. Diesels account for 50% of car sales in some countries. But diesel isn't without its problems. Governments worry about particulate emissions (and are considering road tax increases to dissuade people from buying diesels).
There's nothing to prevent hybrid systems where the ICE component is a diesel. There isn't one available now, because the European car makers were concentrating on diesels instead (and on catching up with the Japanese in manufacturing efficiency and reliability). They were caught off guard on the whole hybrid idea.
A hybrid drivetrain can be more efficient than is possible with an ICE (petrol or diesel) only.
The next trend that's going to have a big impact is smaller, more efficient petrol engines. We're seeing the first cars come out now where a 2-litre engine has been replaced by a 1.4 with a turbocharger, with the same max. power output while using less fuel and better emissions figures.
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Don't get me wrong, I am very excited that clean diesels are coming to the states, and that more diesel cars are available - diesel engines are more efficient... I just wanted to point out that comparing MPG is kind of meaningless, since diesel crams more energ
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"Not a car" (Score:3, Informative)
Recently Top Gear magazine paid for one of these to be subject to the most basic testing - the results were pretty horrific.
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In europe these vehicles are not classified as cars and as such do not have to subject themselves to the Euro NCAP.
Recently Top Gear magazine paid for one of these to be subject to the most basic testing - the results were pretty horrific.
If so, they are not allowed to go faster than 40 KM/H. That's the same speed as a moped or scooter may do. I prefer to be in one of those stupid electric vehicles than on a moped when in an accident. Furthermore, if this would really become big, security will improve fast, and city traffic speed will become slower.
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Would you prefer to be in a vehicle that, in the event of an accident (head on at least) will keep you trapped, with crushed legs and chest, that can take an eternity to get out of, or a mope
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If both cars are equal weight and the collision is straight-on, they will both experience a deceleration from 30mph to 0mph. Exactly the same as if they each hit a wall at 30mph.
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After collision, you will have a (Hummer+car) construction, going 18 mph in the direction the Hummer went (assuming the cars lock in accident, and won't jump back).
So, the Hummer just hit a wall at 12 mph, while the other car hit the same wall at 48 mph.
Better to be in the Hummer
You would not get back up (Score:2)
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The reason for the horrific tests results for the Wizz was a horrible design. It is not something that is specific to electric cars in particular. The pseudoengeneers from one well known country who designed the Wizz have built it around the battery. Th
Strawman argument. (Score:5, Informative)
Some other poster pointed out your strawman is called g-wiz(made in India), which is a different vehicle
Informative? Hardly. (Score:4, Insightful)
According to the article, the Think cars have a top speed of 62MPH (which their agreement with Tesla hopes to raise to 85-90MPH. It will very much be a highway car, and therefore subject to American and European safety standards. Lumping the Think and the G-Wiz together as "these cars" is like lumping your pet rabbit and your sister-in-law together under "these animals". Did that analogy make sense? No? That's my point: it's nonsensical. If Chewbacca lives on Krykkit, you must acquit.
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Not that cyclists help themselves sometimes.. driving in the dark with dark clothing and no hi-vis (I'd say the same about pedestrians too.. crossing the road in the dark with a dark jacket on and not near any street lights.. aargh!). I'd mention running red lights but car drivers to that just as much as cyclists (probably more, if round here is anything to go by).
Expect li-ion prices to go up (Score:2)
Get real (Score:2, Interesting)
Bawhahahahaha!!!
That's a good joke, they should take this act to Vegas.
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A 5-year loan on a $15000 car will be around $300/mo (5% APR). That extra $200/mo adds 66% to the total mont
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You will pay approximately the same for a smart [smart.com] and even more for something like a Volkswagen Polo, and that's without gas! (Today about $1,80 for a liter at my nearest gas station!) The price is reasonable for Europe.
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Right, Sherlock. (Score:3, Informative)
The price is actually from Germany. That's where I saw a Gas station this morning, now I'm in the Netherlands and here it's more around $1.90 or $2.00 for a liter.
For an international price list take a look at this [gasoline-germany.com] (prices in EURO).
and how much do you spend on gas a month? (Score:3, Interesting)
at current prices, even for a small car, that's $35-$40 a tank. generously, that's $140 a month for gas.
$100 monthly fee for a battery? sign me up! there's flexcar or rentals for long hauls.
twice in the last 6 years I've had commutes of between 40 and 60 miles, which was costing me upwards of $80 a week, and that was at lower prices. this is well within the range of one of these cars.
Carbon Free? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Carbon Free? (Score:4, Informative)
First, this car is produced in Norway, where the overwhelming majority of power is generated by hydro-electric plants.
Secondly, the manufacturer was bought out by a company that specialices in solar energy.
So yes, it makes perfect sence for them to talk about a 'carbon free' car. Off course, the marketing blurb, reality in Norway and reality in [country of your choice] isn't always the same thing...
Nuclear + Wind (Score:5, Insightful)
Nuclear (70%+ of all electricity around here)
Wind is already competitive price-wise with coal. Its main problems are that they require massive initial investment, and that it takes A LOT of time to get over all the Nimbys. Wind also happens to be unpredictable, but that's a non issue as far as battery charging is concerned. All that's required is a broadcast flag to tell the charger to stop sucking current when not enough power is available.
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Unlike the diesel, it doesn't have to idle when stopped. Unlike the diesel, it can use regenerative braking and not waste energy to slow down. Unlike the diesel, one huge powerplant is much more efficient than lots of very small powerplants (our local power station, a combined cycle gas turbine which uses any remaining waste heat to heat the nearby swimming pool has a pretty amazing thermal efficiency -
This is car enough (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's a good idea with a lot of potential here in Europe, maybe not in the US.
For me it's definitely enough car. For most people it would make a great second car.
From their homepage: [think.no]
Range: 180km
Speed: max. 100km/h
A max. speed of 120km/h would be nicer, but range and speed are sufficient for all of the routes on which I prefer car over train.
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There are already plenty of electric cars, but most don't go past 120 miles, and neither does this one. I have a small car with a small gas tank, and I have to refuel every 250 miles and I find it a hassle. Some electric cars can only go 70-80 miles before a recharge, and when you factor in having to drive home, that means driving 40 miles out and 40 miles home.
In a city like LA where people often live pretty far out from where they work, i
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How much of the driving in LA is at slow speed in heavy traffic? Under those conditions a petrol engine will be less efficient, and an electric drive line will be more efficient.
L.A. traffic (Score:3, Insightful)
For an electric car -- or fuel cell, or anything else -- to be practical for me, these are the requirements:
* 0 to 60 mph in 11 seconds, max. This would p
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Refill? (Score:2)
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Do you think cities are going to put outputs in front of every parking spot in a city? Who is going to pay to install them? Who is paying for electricity used to recharge the cars?
Frankly, a plug-in car can really only be charged at your house. And until they can go 200 miles (100 mile each way) before a recharge, I don't believe they are feasible.
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Re:This is car enough (Score:4, Interesting)
So, drive 40 or 50 miles to work and plug the sucker in. It charges all day and you drive it home. A small overnight boost will get you back to work again!
Doing something like this would be a useful kick-start to the technology, and once it becomes more commonplace it should also get cheaper and drive the technology forward!
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There are a few details to work out, for sure; but first look to the campsite industry, where they probably already use something similar.
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and if they sell it for a good price, i'll buy it next summer - it would be the perfect car for me.
I thought so too... until (Score:2)
You can buy a, very fuel efficient compact import for a third less. Frankly, that thing makes a Kia look cool. Any savings in fuel are utterly obliterated by the cost of leasing the battery and "fees". I want an electric as much as anyone else, but that's a lot of cash to lay out. I'm sure they'll sell some to people who just want an electric car, but novelty isn't going to drive an industry.
I hope they're around long enoug
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Also add in the eventual expense of electricity as demand grows. Much of the US is at peak demand for large chunks of the year. There is not excess capacity on the grid for a large number of people to be charging electric cars. Electricity prices will skyrocket with demand.
Electric cars are not a magic bull
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Well, if it's payable.... Meaning much less than for example a Smart car, I'm all for it. When I was young and crazy, I bought an small roadster, which really is a gas guzzler at 10l/100km (~23.5mpg according to Google) and I still have it to this day. Selling it won't bring me enough money to buy an eco-friendly car and I don't want to invest in a new car. I mean if I have to add another 15k€ on the selling price, it'll take years before the savings start to kick in. It's stupid to replace a perf
Stirling Engine (Score:5, Interesting)
Thanks to AKAImBatman for pointing me at Stirling engines; I first read about them on his blog.
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Pretty much EVERYTHING is more efficient than old gasoline ICEs.
Turbo Diesel engines (which are Internal Combustion), however, certainly can be more efficient than Sterling engines, not to mention cheaper.
Turbines can thoroughly beat Sterling engines on efficiency as well.
There are problems external combustion engines as well. You're going to have to have an impressive engine assembly to withstand the extremely high tempe
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Ah, yes. Thanks for clarifying that. If I implied that internal combustion engines only run on fossil fuels, that was accidental. I am well aware that they run on other fuels, as well, and I actually plan to convert my (future) car to run on plain vegetable oil.
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Now that would be cool. The catalytic converter could be turned into a bread maker, so you have fresh bread when you get where you're going. "I get 1.25 loaves/100km" you would tell people.
More seriously though, i'm not sure that flour would provide adequate lubrication, and the 'fuel' delivery system would be a nightmare to design, as would the exhaust.
Diesel-electric hybrid is coming (Score:3, Interesting)
Metallurgy (Score:3, Informative)
"mobility fee" of $100 to $200 a month (Score:3, Insightful)
Please wake me when I can help save the environment without declaring bankruptcy.
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For the rest of us, no. It's insane. I want to spend ~$8k-$1
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Cheaper one from India (Score:5, Interesting)
Sure, it can only do a top speed of around 50MPH with a range of 60 Miles per charge, but I guess that's enough for city driving? I don't know, but is USD 9K too much for a small electric car that can carry two adults & two children in your place? In India, it is a viable option as a second car, for the growing numbers of nouveau rich at least.
Warning: Businessspeak (Score:4, Interesting)
I have no idea what they mean by describing the car as "open-source". Also, they can't seem to decide whether it's a car, a glorified terminal, a power generator, or an iPod.
I also get the eerie impression that it is vaporware. Golden mountains are being promised, but will they be delivered? With so many rich people being enthusiastic about it, there is just a chance, but still, I don't want to get my hopes squashed again.
All in all, it looks very cool. I want one.
Car dealership is required (Score:5, Interesting)
Not really new, but still great (Score:2)
Think cars [wikipedia.org] have been around in Norway for quite some time. They have a number of supporting measures from the government, such as lower taxes (taxes on a new car are about as much as the car itself over here), they can use reserved lanes and are exempt from city toll rings (fairly common, even if they removed the one where I live).
A thing you will have to get used is not to rely on your ears when crossing a road. These cars are very silent, once I almost got run over by one because it was so silent that
It's all about the battery (Score:2)
Email from Think (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the text:
Clueless (Score:3, Insightful)
Plus, without a way to recharge the battery in roughly the time it takes to fill up a gas tank, what the hell are these things good for? Short distance commuting? Corbin already tried it, with a better looking mini-car, and failed. Miserably. Americans generally have no use for automotive unitaskers - most of them have long highway commutes and the occasional road-trip, and they want to do both in the same car.
Ugly cars also don't sell well. I don't mean "Quirky styling" like the Scion xB or Suzuki Aero, or bland styling, like a Chrysler Sebring or Toyota Corolla. I mean, East German levels of "Couldn't Be Bothered With It" styling: truly and deeply misguided design choices no-one paused to give a second thought to, complete with panel gaps you can see with the naked eye from low earth orbit and colors chosen for their complete inability to catch the eye.
Efficient and cheap isn't going to get you anywhere near public acceptance. It's got to offer a lot more... the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius look goood, they're slick productions with a lot more to offer than 50mpg. The Prius in particular has been successful because it offers near-luxury comfort and conveniences with econobox mileage and futuristic styling. (The other hybrid makers are also having a hard time grokking this, so we get Hybrid Civics and Mariners no-one is particularly enthusiastic over.)
The Smart FourTwo is a tiny, inexpensive car with great styling and sybaritic creature comforts, and Daimler =still= won't bring it to the US because there's no real market for it here. The Think, an ugly plug-in doo-dad, is doomed before it even starts. Dell? Try Osbourne.
SoupIsGood Food
Re:Clueless (Score:4, Informative)
When I lived in Houston, I was quite unusual amongst my friends having only one vehicle.
Damned Right! (Score:3, Interesting)
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That's why a European company is doing this. In Europe. Where small cars sell.
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The typical American family is a two car family. One of these cars will be a sensible sedan. One of them will be a truck - Pickup, SUV or minivan. This is because big trucks are practical for moving people, carrying stuff anf towing things. Otherwise, they'd be spending like no tomorrow on muscle cars l
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The interesting thing is that many Americans think the same way (I _need_ a big car), however compare an American suburb to a European one. There isn't much of a difference. So why on earth would you need a SUV to drive to the mall while us euros do fine with our Peugeot or BMW?
You need to haul plywood around. So do we. But we tend to rent a trailer, which is always possible at our Home Depot-lookalikes. And honestly, it's not like you need to haul plywood around every fracking day. The same if we
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The problem is that there is.
American residential lots are bigger and mixed commercial/residential areas don't really exist in suburbia.
The practical differences of all that space are much larger than you're giving them credit for.
We can't walk anywhere. We don't have mass transit worth a damn. So we drive. Everywhere. And even we don't like all this driving, so we combine trips. Alot. Can a mini get an adult, two kids and groceries back and forth? Sure. But not when you t
Still the wrong battery model (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, so maybe we need small, medium, and large batteries, plus a couple of bigger sizes for trucks, buses, RVs, and those 4x4s needed for all that rugged terrain around the suburban malls :-) but the last thing we need is some dipshit marketing droid inventing new and proprietary batteries that you have to get from the manufacturer. Suppose you bought a Toyota but you had to go to a Toyota garage to get your gas...
"No dealers" - but what about maintenance? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, where will these vehicles be maintained? Independent garages aren't usually the first to invest in new equipment and training to service unusual cars (e.g. handling high-voltage equipment and large batteries that can discharge at 1000 A).
I expect these cars will need less maintenance than internal combustion vehicles, though. I just had my car in for its 15 Mm checkup, and of the E 370 bill, maybe E 40 was for items unrelated to the engine (an interior filter and balancing two tires IIRC). This means routine stuff could be handled by any garage (or tire fitter, for that matter). It's just the high-voltage electric stuff that needs a specialist.
The only problem (Score:4, Funny)
$10k with the lease fee and I'm in (Score:3, Interesting)
Now for this plug in vehicle. I am a strong believer that any company who can bring back the $10k new car will clean up. My father works for GM and I know it can be done, but has been squashed just about every step of the way. If this vehicle could get to $10k (even 11k) and include the battery fee for the first year, then I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
I have a odd car dealer by my house that sells replica's and oddballs of all sorts (Once I almost bought a Delorean there) and they have been selling the Mercedes smart cars. People are flying in from all over the country daily for them and the waiting list is up to 18 months right now. The price? $60,000. Honestly, people are dying to drop 60 g's for a tiny smart car like this one... the market is there at any price, but for mass adoption and disruption of the market $10k would be it.
Who killed the (Norwegian) electric car? (Score:4, Funny)
praise be, /.ers are back to shooting down ideas (Score:5, Insightful)
Good thing slashdot isn't a frickin' VC company...I can just imagine the comments:
No, instead, we have the run of the mill peanut gallery, with their particularly ignorant insights. Don't get me wrong, a strong dose of skepticism is a healthy thing to have, but do you really think that Sergey and his band of PhD.s are not quite as clever as you when it comes to spotting and growing ideas? I'm no fan of the Segway, but you have to admit, much of the pesky unwanted energy in our machines shows its face in the form of heat, and if you can find a *relatively* cheap way to convert it to some other form, well, that seems like a pretty handy little model...
But slashdot has all the answers...it's too small, too expensive, the batteries should be $free, it's failed x times before, it's a toy, it's not safe, Joe sixpack wants a hummer, ponzi!, l4m3, FUD, w00t...whereas a couple of commenters actually get it: this could work in x conditions, but not in y, for z reasons...at least there are still a couple people left around here that haven't grown up thinking a forum is a place to pile on, the snarkier, the better.
I'm not saying it will succeed just because some heavy duty investors are behind it; plenty of ideas that fit that bill haven't made it. The point is, it could, and maybe one day something will happen that might cause people to think about energy differently, and this model will be ahead of its time, or at least some lessons will have been learned. Like a HOWTO on overclocking your chip with a stirling engine that charges your iPod...
Instead of analysis, we have negative comments modded as insightful. I suppose it's true what The Onion says, it turns out that a majority of Americans are actually NOT entitled to have their own opinions...
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Far be it from me to stick a pin in your nostalgia, but slashdot has never been any different, really. And in this case, we're right, this product has "going nowhere" written all over it.
Re:praise be, /.ers are back to shooting down idea (Score:4, Insightful)
In this submission it was questioned whether this would "Usher in Big Changes" in the automotive world. The veracity of that is entirely up for discussion and if you've evert tried to get funding for company, you'd want to post the idea here. That way you'll know all the possible failure modes.
Will this make a big change in the automotive world? No. It is not cost effective nor space effective for most people.
For single persons having two cars that carry the same amount of people is wasteful, and takes up more parking spaces in their apartment complexes - spaces they may not have available. Most families of >2 members already have two vehicles, so this would make a third one. Again most families have at most a two-car garage (and many of those are actually wide opening single-car garages). Thus the space issue hits home, no pun intended, for them.
Further, the cost of this car versus their current car makes it cost more to buy and use than to continue driving their existing car, for most people that it is alleged would be the target.
All that boils down to who the real market, targeted or not, is. People who only need this car and are OK with it's limitations (all cars have them). That market is demonstrably small. I
d even suggest that teenage drivers make the most logical target market. These markets are a small, small measure of the overall market. From this standpoint the answer to "big changes" is a flat "no".
On the standpoint of whether the method of selling will usher big changes, again, no. The reasons are different here. The existing model consists of manufacturers selling their product to dealers, who then sell it again. The automaker is already selling direct in this model. Selling directly to the customer would represent a breach of contract with their dealers. It would also put them in competition with their largest block of customers. So no, that won't change either.
It isn't a matter of opinion as to whether or not the questions asked represent a likely future, it is an analysis. Just as with the hype of the Segway. Does the Segway work as a means of transportation? Yes, it is functional. Is it cool? arguably, yes. Did it represent a fundamental shift of how we the people would get around? No. Did it cause a "rethinking" of how we get around? No.
See, that is the problem. Every "new idea" is touted as a funadmental shift, a paradigm change, a "world changing idea", or some such notion. So of course, we the thinkers, analyze that. And due to the nature of the frequency of truly world changing ideas, more often than not the answer is "no it is not a world changing idea". An idea can be a good one without being a world changing one.
Then again, if you believe that the majority of people are not entitled to their opinions, you probably believe they are entitled to your opinion.
They can supply an oil battery (Score:2)
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Oh, those were the days!
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Re:Your all MORONS!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't drive up mountains with deer in the back. I do, however, drive about six miles each way for work, and short grocery runs during the week. I bought a scooter that gets 80mpg, but I'm definitely interested in something that can get the same or better mileage but keep me out of the elements.
Just because you don't think something is useful doesn't mean other people don't.
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