Charge in 5 minutes, Drive 500 miles? 319
ctroutwi writes "In the wake of rising gasoline costs there have been plenty of alternatives seen on the horizon. Including Hybrids, Biofuels, fuel cells and battery powered all electric cars. CNN has recently posted a story about a company (EEStor) that plans on offering Ultra-Capacitor storage products. The claim being that you charge the ultra-capacitor in 5 minutes, with approximately 9$ (~$.45 a gallon) of electricity and then drive 500 miles."
daddypants email link broken? (Score:5, Informative)
( ERROR: Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at... Line 126 )
On a sidenote, what seems odd to me is that not only is this a dupe that is currently visible on the index [slashdot.org] of slashdot, but that the article summary is almost identical to the earlier submission, and is even from the same submitter. Insert Matrix deja-vu quote here.
Mods, try to be on the lookout for copy and paste karma whores (man, plagiarism annoys me). Unfortunately with 700+ comments on the last discussion, this may not be easy, haha.
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On a sidenote, what seems odd to me is that not only is this a dupe that is currently visible on the index [slashdot.org] of slashdot, but that the article summary is almost identical to the earlier submission, and is even from the same submitter.
Yup:
500 Miles on a 5-Minute Recharge?
"In the wake of rising gasoline costs there have been plenty of alternatives seen on the horizon. Including Hybrids, Biofuels, fuel cells and battery powered all electric cars. CNN has recently posted a story about a com
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Re:daddypants email link broken? (Score:5, Funny)
I emailed the on-duty editor (regarding this being a dupe), like any good little
( ERROR: Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at... Line 126 )
On a sidenote, what seems odd to me is that not only is this a dupe that is currently visible on the index [slashdot.org] of slashdot, but that the article summary is almost identical to the earlier submission, and is even from the same submitter. Insert Matrix deja-vu quote here.
Sorry couldn't resist
Jaj
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Trinity: What did you just say?
Neo: Nothing. Just had a little deja vu.
Trinity: What happened? What did you see?
Neo: A Slashdot article was on the index, and then I saw another that looked just like it.
Trinity: How much like it? Was it the same article?
Neo: It might have been. I'm not sure. What is it?
Trinity: A deja vu is usually a glitch in the Matrix. It happens when the editors are lazy.
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Battery reloaded!
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Cost/gallon of electricity is a new and fascinating unit!
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I still have several gallons of electricity from before the y2k scare. They're stocked up in a storage closet in the basement. Luckily, I bought it at $.27/gallon before the price was driven up.
Hmmm... I wonder what the shelf life of a gallon of electricity is. Maybe I should divide them into quarts or pints. Maybe even sell it off at $.45/gallon and make a profit!
But to be fair... (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's more fun to bitch about people, but you ought to hand out some kudos every once in a while too. We could do with a bit more of that on the Intarweb.
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Improvement is.
If you emit nothing but negative feedback, if even improvement is met with negative feedback because the improvement doesn't make it to "perfection" or some other standard, the psychological result is as predictable as the sun rising tomorrow: Lack of interest in continuing to try and ever diminishing performance. It's a bit odd that anybody thinks relentless negativity can have any other effect. (But there are entire major
He Should Resign. (Score:2)
Personally, I would consider this a sackable offense. The occasional dupe will slip through, paticularly when a lot of time has passed since the original story. The odd one may slip in if two different submitters submit substantially different summaries. But this isn't the case.
S
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Editor? You keep using that word... (Score:2)
More like "automated poster of random articles, without the application of any thought whatsoever." Seriously, a well-trained rat could hit the "Publish" button and accomplish pretty much 99% of what
I swear you could write a script to spellcheck article submissions and post some random subset and
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Don't go China (Score:3, Funny)
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Have you ever seen a capacitor explode? Have you ever seen a large capacitor blow up a screwdriver that shorted across its terminals?
It doesn't matter if it's gasoline, Li-Poly, Li-Ion, Hydrogen, etc. We use it because it's easy to extract energy from it. It's easy to extract energy from it because it's very reactive. There are many ways to blow up a fuel tank - but we've had a century of design information and now they rarely go up like they could (except in movies). When we ha
Energy density (Score:3, Interesting)
This time around I have thought of something to say.
As we strive for higher energy density in our laptop computers, electric cars, mobile phones, etc; we are creating devices which can potentially release much of their stored energy in a short space of time. It doesn't have to be a chemical explosion. I have in my workshop a melted bicycle tail light and four cooked NiCD batteries from cycle commuting years past when I put two batteries in the wrong way and created a short circuit.
So IMHO battery/capacitor explosions are the way of the future, certainly much more than the backyard LPG explosions we get from time to time here in Australia (LPG is a cheap substitute for petrol, but a bit volatile.)
How is Alan Cox going with his hair? Is it growing back yet.
An accident waiting to happen (Score:2)
Gas prices seem to be about $2.50 [bakersfieldgasprices.com] per gallon, so this is charging with the same energy as 24 gallons.
Equivalent to 5 gallons of gas per minute.
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But I think if they install fuses right into their capacitor or connect it to a sensor such that when the car flips over/has a major accident/fal
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paid editors, for what, exactly? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, I expect there are a bunch of comments to this effect about the dupe.
What I'm wondering is why these guys call themselves editors. I'm frustrated that ad revenue and subscription fees go to these people who totally disregard all semblance of professionalism. I wish I had a cushy job like that, where I could sit back, press 'Accept' once in a while without even reading the blurb or the front page, and get paid for it.
More information here (Score:2, Funny)
stupid editors... (Score:2, Interesting)
were ever accepted. (Ok maybe your standards are higher than mine?)
But THIS? For crying out loud this story is such a DUPE it appears
TWICE on the same web page!!!!! This proves the
smoking bananas!
900KW (Score:2)
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It takes 900KW to charge the Slashdot Dupe Engine?
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Batteries and such (Score:5, Interesting)
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Having said that, the energy density of gasoline or diesel is still far better than that for electric storage. That more than anything else is why electric vehicles still haven't taken off. In addition to the obvious performance issues, you also can't cram as many power consuming options (air condition
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It wasn't me!!! (Score:4, Funny)
Please define (Score:2)
Really. I'm curious.
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Metric system (Score:3, Funny)
I dont know if anyone had heard this... (Score:2)
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Those figures do make sense (Score:5, Informative)
Supposition: 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, with $9 worth of electricity.
$9 worth of electricity = 100kWh
100kWh = 360 megajoules
500 miles = 804 kilometres
Force = Energy / distance
= 360e6 / 804e3
= 447 Newtons
(of course the above is only the average force available for that journey)
F_drag = 1/2 * Drag_Coefficient * Cross_Section * AirDensity * Velocity^2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient [wikipedia.org] gives Drag as around 0.3 for an average car. Cross-section is probably about 3 square metres.
F_drag = 0.5 * 0.3 * 3 * 1.29 * v^2
= 0.581 v^2
55 mph = 24 m/s
F_drag_55 = 334 Newtons
Which is well within the average 447 available; and gives scope for losses. So; it turns out it's not crazy to suggest you can get 500 miles on $9 worth of electricity.
I wonder how far my house would travel a month...
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500 kWh in 9 minutes is 3333 kW
at 115 volts nominal, looks like 28985 amps!
Electrical code allows 20 amps in 12 gauge wire, 12 gauge is 3.3 mm**2 cross section, we need over 3300 mm**2 cross section - call it sqrt(1000) mm.
That charging cable's in the neigborhood of a foot in diameter! OR the voltage must be much, much higher.
So, sounds like you still need a "gas station", or rather "charging station", with a substantial infrastructure. Or, you put a dupli
More details.. (Score:5, Informative)
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01
A breif run down:
-S
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The product weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours.
And how is that supposed to be enough to drive 500 miles? A typical car requires something like 25 hp to maintain 60 mi/hr, IIRC. (That's about 34 kW to maintain 97 km/hr.) So, then 52 kWh is enough for just over 1.5 hours, or less than 150 km. That's more than a little shy of 500 miles, ain't it?
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$9 to go 500 miles seems like a great deal (we're talking about cash here, not the environment. That $9 of electricity was probably generated with coal. Renewable sources can't even cover what we use *now*, so they don't stand a chance if we signifigantly increase our electricity usage), but if you only drive 20 miles and then park for three days only to come back to a discharged cap, then you can keep it and I'll sti
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Consecutive with the same battery? 5 million minutes = 9.5 years
Don't know how they cycled it, but maybe they had a test rig that could handle really high amp charging/discharging cycles. In which case, you might be able to do a "cycle" (charge up to X% of full capacity and discharge down to Y% of capacity) in a matter of a few seconds.The math isnt very promising on this ! (Score:2, Insightful)
A capacitor bank to store that much charge (100 to 200 KwH) is going to cost, retail, at today's prices, oh, about $220,000 to $440,000 AND take up most of the space inside a minivan. . It's unlikely these folks have made that much of an improvement in cost and density.
That much energy stored in a capacitor bank will make Jerry Brukheimer really envious-- every such car out there will explode on impact.
Most houses are only wired for 100 to
Nah, It is 500 discussion threads (Score:2)
Slashdot does 500 discussions on a single news item. In just two days.!!!!!
Can't wait for the used/after market (Score:2)
Dupe it again and it becomes "tripe"... (Score:2)
VC backer (Score:2, Interesting)
Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers [wikipedia.org] were early investors in Amazon, America Online, Compaq, Electronic Arts, Google, Macromedia, Netscape, Quantum, Segway, Sun Microsystems (just to name a few). Looks like it is more serious than virgin snake oil.
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Now, I'm not one to complain .... (Score:2)
Have a gander [headru.sh].
OK, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Tom Caudron
http://tom.digitalelite.com/ [digitalelite.com]
TANSTAFL (Score:2)
My father is fond of the acronym "TANSTAFL" to describe situations like this. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. I don't care how hard you squeeze your eyes shut and wish for this, there is no way in hell y
Oh, really? (Score:2)
Theoretically possible, but... (Score:2)
So it is certainly possible to envision a capacitor-driven car, b
Odd math.... (Score:2)
$0.45 / gallon of electricity?? Huh? Could I get that in kilo-watts of gasoline, just so I have a better frame of reference?
...capacitor? (Score:2)
So how wide is the blast radius when it short circuits?
No RiverWorld references? (Score:2)
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Re:How Much Does the Capacitor Cost? (Score:4, Insightful)
You mean like the "electrical energy stations" mentioned in TFA, from which a 5 minute charge may be obtained?
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Stop thinking! No progress allowed! Be a team player! Team players get food. People who think and speak get fired! Be a team player! No progress!
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If everyone's car magically transformed into an electric? It would be disastrous. However, worst-case, everyone buys an electric as the gasoline cars wear out. The transition would take 10+ years, and the grid would expand to cope with the increased demand.
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You don't. But in general, once demand rises for something and manufacturing processes are in place, the cost begins to fall closer to that of the raw materials. I somehow doubt that the raw materials for these capacitors will be more expensive than Li-Ion and Li-Polymer materials.
Significantly better than batteries.
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This is only a problem if the cost/effort of replacing them is significant. Otherwise, it's part of your normal service schedule.
An 18 ton capacitor? Yeah, it would cost a bit (Score:5, Informative)
So if you want to store about 90 kWh in a bank of those, you'd need anywhwere between 18,000 and 30,000 kg worth of ultra-capacitors. Yes, between 18 and 30 metric _tons_. Not quite a commuter car, you know? I'll also go on a limb and say that buying whole tons of them will cost a pretty penny.
Also, transferring 90 kWh in 5 minutes means 1080kW power. More that 1 MW. So, yeah, I don't think your average power socket can do that. At 2.7V that means 400,000 A, too.
So, basically, it's just snake oil. It ranks up there with the promises to make energy out of water by changing the orbits of electrons in hydrogen. Some fraudster figured that he can get tens of millions of dollars VC to pretend to make such a thing. And given the IQ of some VC these days, they probably will too.
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Packing that in 152 kg? Ooer. That still requires a 70-80 times improvement in capacitor technology, compared to the best of the best ultracapacitors available today. It's a jump from being 10 times worse than a chemical battery t
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You usually think of Kleiner Perkins as investing in real things.
If they're using barium titanate (as a later post mentions) in place of the usual ultracapacitor formulations then they could run higher voltages.
It's a capacitor (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, if you RTFP (Read The F***ing Patent), it _is_ a fancy capacitor, plus circuitry to get a constant voltage out of it. In fact, it's downright the most classical kind of a capacitor, with two surfaces separated by a thin dielectric material. Only they use a fine powder to achieve lots of surface.
So, yes, it _
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Re:Regular house current (FYI) (Score:5, Informative)
220V * 30amp = 6,600 watts * 5 minutes = 0.55 kilowatt hours. You're only a few orders of magnitude off from "$9 worth of electricity", specifically 52 kWhs for EEStor's product. To charge 52 kWhs in 5 minutes, you'd need to be chugging through ~600 kW of power, or about 2.7 kiloamps at 220V.
Bye, bye wall plug.
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I also checked their patent [uspto.gov], which seems like a reasonable decent use of a patent for a change provided it actually works. Think of the T [teslamotors.com]
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read the patent, I posted all the information on it yesterday at the original posting
sheesh!
dupe posting and dupe commentary...
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With this method you could even schedule your capacitor to cahrge during the night where electricity is cheaper (at least here in europe).
What are the advantages vs a battery? Well your local Shell station could be running massive capacitors for you and you could just plug-in real quick w
Re:Regular house current (FYI) (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as costs, of course the cost of electricity is going to go up for everyone. However, with transmission lines, you build them (once) and then the power keeps coming. So after the initial investment, you are going to save money over gas. Gas has to be brought in by truck, which costs money in labor and fuel and truck insurance, etc. Then you have pump maintenance, etc which is no longer necessary. On the other end you have a regional distributor who takes a cut, a refiner who takes a cut, a global distributer who takes a cut of the crude oil, and then a producer who takes a cut. Not to mention the people doing the transporting between each of these middle-men.
With electric, you are going to cut out a lot of middle men. The utility, if fossil powered, will buy in large bulk quanities that will be delivered to one location, probably by ship. So, just by moving energy by transmission line we are cutting back on the total energy use required by the country. It's all a big chain reaction.
I hope they can make this thing work.
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The issue most people are bringing up is the "$9 of electricity in 5 minutes". Mostly by people with real engineering experience. And they have a point. $9 worth of electricity is a LOT of power, enough that if you try and transfer it in 5 minutes, things WILL melt. This isn't some vast conspiracy to keep this technology suppressed, it is common sense.
FWIW, I think the press release has padded the numbers a lot, like it is really going to be $3 worth of electricity that they will charge $9
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http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Proclaimers/500-
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Jaj
A quandry wrapped in an enigma.... (Score:2, Funny)
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What's weirder is that I love cryptic crosswords. You may even be surprised to know that it has helped my spelling etc..
Jaj - Weird and proud of it
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Feature request already on Source Forge (Score:2)
-Rick
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My solution is to have every electric car have a bagpipe player walking alongside it, playing 'Scotland the Brave.' This will ensure that electric cars are just as safe as the quality cars that are currently on the road.
Just a thought,
General Motors
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Editors used to have recursive macro's to apply -1 moderation to controversial posts, so even if 50 users moderated something up the post would tank.
Today I think it's more benign editor abuse -- they simply MISUSE the "friend or foe" system so they can sometimes publish t
DON'T MOD PARENT UP!!! (Score:3, Funny)
In an discussion under a duped article we have a post that refers to Deja Vu that was modded Redundant! It doesn't get better than this folks!
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