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Handhelds Patents The Almighty Buck Government The Courts Hardware News

Blackberry Competitor Announced 147

Posted by Zonk from the dirty-pool dept.
conq wrote to mention a BusinessWeek article reporting that NTP has licensed its wireless email patent to a new Blackberry competitor. Essentially, they're creating a competitor to Blackberry out of whole cloth, and bolstering their case against the popular handheld device maker. From the article: "The deal comes amid dwindling options for RIM, seller of the popular BlackBerry e-mail paging service. NTP four years ago successfully sued RIM for infringing on NTP's wireless e-mail patents. After a tentative $450 million settlement fell apart in June, RIM has battled back through court appeals, holding out hope that the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office (PTO) will strike down NTP's patents." This has not been a good month for RIM.
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Blackberry Competitor Announced More

Blackberry Competitor Announced

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  • Future blackberry market? Is there one? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dada21 ( 163177 ) * <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:14PM (#14266263) Homepage Journal
    My Pocket PC PDA phone finally failed after I ripped out the charging jack by accident. A family member had an unused Blackberry 7100 phone that I threw my SIM card into. I've been using in for 2 days and I honestly believe the Blackberry is one of the worst produced handhelds I have ever seen. The scroll wheel is efficient only if you use the push e-mail, but the device does not seem very powerful, intuitive or expandable. Simple can be a good thing, but not if simple means "simple enough for the mentally challenged."

    If Blackberry's major market was offering non-techie CEOs an easy to use device, I guess it works fine. Yet as common PC users become power users, I'd guess they'll outgrow the device and want more power and expandability (and customizable user interface). Using it right now reminds me more of an etch-a-sketch combined with a speak-and-spell. The Blackberry with T-mobile doesn't even use T-mobiles GPRS Internet plan, they want me to get some Blackberry plan. Even my old Nokias use the GPRS Internet plan (a great backup if you break phones as often as I do).

    If Blackberry beats out the patent problems, will they have much of a future with a product that seems outdated by almost 5 years? Do many users here use their Blackberry and like it? I've been using PDAs since before the original Newton, and this device is just hokey. I feel like I have a trophy wife that looks nice but doesn't actually do anything. What am I missing?
    • I fulyl agree personaly i am waiting for the i-mates to hit and work in the US market.. then i too can have a trophy wife.... one that can do everything
    • So what were you using previously?

      I'm on the look out for a good PDA phone and need some recommendations.
      • I was using the HP iPAQ h6315 Pocket PC phone. WiFi, Bluetooth, GPRS, great screen, great battery, tons of expandability. This was T-mobile worst product in terms of user ratings, but it worked flawless for me. I loved the phone and it made me a lot of money over year.

        Unfortunately, T-mobile no longer has a Pocket PC PDA phone. I won't get a Treo (hate Palm and Linux isn't ready yet), I won't get a Blackberry. I could buy a phone from HP and adapt it to T-mobile, but T-mobile offers a $70 replacement f
        • I had a 6315 for some time. Awesome little device, just needed more speed. It finally stopped crashing daily after the latest patch. I missed Symbian, though, so I switched back to my old 3650 until the Nokia E61 comes out.

          Someday, someone will get it right. I recommend looking at the HP iPAQ hw6515 if you liked the 6315. You can pop the Tmo SIM into it and it works just fine.
    • Here in DC, everyone and their mother has a blackberry. To think that there is no market for blackberry is ridiculous.

    • Re:Future blackberry market? Is there one? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jcostantino ( 585892 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:24PM (#14266355) Homepage
      The Blackberry was designed to send and receive email wirelessly and it has had bits and pieces tacked on to it since then. If I'm not mistaken, the first incarnation of it was without a phone, then the phone was added, then color, they threw some games in there somewhere... it's like a screwdriver with a hammer and scissors attached to it..

      The only thing it has going for it is the push email. My MS Smartphone receives email but only when it connects and checks my mailbox. Maybe if I had an important email that was received 1 minute after it just checked, I'd have to wait 29 more minutes to have it automatically check again. If my almost half-hour were THAT important to me, I would consider a BB.

      You're right though.. they SUCK as a PDA but that's because they aren't supposed to be PDAs. It's an email terminal and nothing else. The user interface is complete crap, the scroll wheel is impossible to get used to. The only thing it does well is make and receive calls and email push.

      • The original Blackberries were B&W, and they were glorified pagers. They worked damn well at it too. They did have API's to add new programs to the device, and there were a hand full of vendors, through since the backbone networks were Datatak/Mobitex, they couldn't send to the internet without a 'middleware' server.

        I must admit that I fell in love with this product almost instantly upon using it. My only grudge was my company gave me a 950 (2x4 in. screen) vs. the really sexy (4x4 in. screen).

        Oh, and a
      • it's like a screwdriver with a hammer and scissors attached to it
        These 5 great tools come together in the hammerscissorflashspatulabrush [monkeyninjas.com]
      • The only thing it has going for it is the push email. My MS Smartphone receives email but only when it connects and checks my mailbox. Maybe if I had an important email that was received 1 minute after it just checked, I'd have to wait 29 more minutes to have it automatically check again. If my almost half-hour were THAT important to me, I would consider a BB

        My T-mobile h6315 had "push e-mail" too. An SMS notification came in to the phone, was captured by software that hid the SMS and downloaded the e-mail
    • Agreed.

      My treo 600 is far easier to use and certianly far more expandable. And unlike it's newer brother the 650 it never reboots or locks up. (It's good to have old technology)

      Yes I carry both on my belt. Corperate email on the blackberry and personal on the treo. I can answer personal email faster on my treo than on the blackberry and web surfing is a royal pita on the blackberry having to click twice on every link.

      I still can not understand why the blackberry does not have a touch screen.

      • Amen.

        I have the 650 and experience random reboots, usually when I'm trying to enter a note and oddly enough the last two times were both when I hit the 'j' button. The 650 is a really nice device though... Rip out the idiotic camera and give it a DECENT phone application and it'd be killer. (Honestly, why the fuck is the phone app so ... weak? Not just unintuitive, but counter-intuitive operation, no voice call feature for BT... ugh.) I've been looking for a third-party phone app (and SIP phone app t

      • The Treo 600 was the biggest POS I've ever had to deal with. I'd say literally 7 of 10 units were defective and had to be replaced. I'm on my 3rd - and it's been good for 6 months (and no other problems for awhile...so hopefully whatever was wrong with the batches or something they fixed)

        Fun features:
        - sucks back the power
        - run out of power and everything erases itself

        The only thing Treos have going for them is GoodLink...GoodLink is just plain awesome.

    • Re:Future blackberry market? Is there one? (Score:5, Informative)

      by jandrese ( 485 ) * <kensama@vt.edu> on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:40PM (#14266484) Homepage Journal
      I don't know. I rather like my 7100t. Perhaps it is because I'm comparing it to the crap cellphones everyone else has, but it seems pretty nice to me.

      A few points:
      1. No connector conspiracy. Uses bog standard USB to charge and the headphone jack is the most generic one available.
      2. Integrated browser seems to work reasonably well, although it's kinda slow
      3. The address book could use some UI tweaks, but it's loads better than most address books on phones that I've seen.
      4. The text input works reasonably well. Occasionally it gets tripped up on a word (and I usually know what words it's going to have trouble with, so this isn't as bad as it could be), but it is a bit awkward to go back and edit stuff. Still, it's the fastest text input I've seen this side of the full size Blackberries. Blows regular cell phone (multi-tap) text input out of the water.
      5. No MP3 support, no camera. The lack of a camera is a big plus for me, I work in places where you can bring a cell phone in, but not a camera. The lack of MP3 support isn't an issue for me either because I own an iPod.
      6. The phone is largely unrestricted as to what you can load onto it. There's no rediculous charge to load ringtones or backgrounds. You can either load these from your computer or just over the network (any picture you load in the browser can be set as your background).
      7. You can use the phone as a modem--although not over the Bluetooth. :(, it is a bit clunky with the USB cable attached.
      8. Battery life is pretty reasonable. I've had it for 7 months now and the battery still lasts for 4-5 days without being turned off. Playing games on the phone drains the battery faster (can only play for 5-8 hours or so before the battery is dead). I've never killed the battery with talking, but I'm not a big talker.
      9. The screen is gorgous. Among the best screens available in cell phones. It's a great when paired with the web browser, but it's also good for reading emails if you set the font size small and have good eyes.
      10. The included belt clip is a bit disappointing. The cell phone will fall out if you move too vigoriously, and sometimes it falls out when I'm sitting in low riding cars. It will also scratch the screen if you're working in an environment where there is sand or other abrasives in the air.

      Overall I'm very happy with the phone. It seems to hit the sweet spot between performance and functionality IMHO and the integrated email works like a charm. I'm going to be sad if RIM is forced to close down due to some stupid submarine patent.
      • 1. No connector conspiracy. Uses bog standard USB to charge and the headphone jack is the most generic one available.

        This is huge. My one poblem with USB charging has been the slowness in the past, but I believe this has been "fixed." I spoke with an HTC alpha tester and it seems HTC has offered manufacturers a USB port instead of a proprietary one, but the manufacturers prefer the proprietary one. Hopefully this will change soon.

        2. Integrated browser seems to work reasonably well, although it's kinda sl
    • Simple can be a good thing, but not if simple means "simple enough for the mentally challenged."

      Remember the intended audience. CEO's and self important VPs. They can't handle complicated technology. Face it the blackberry is just a replacement for the standard etch-a-sketch that most PHBs have trouble with. :)
    • The thing is.. the BlackBerry was made to send and recieve e-mail messages, and thats what its specialized for. The other things that it has are basically add on's.

      Its kind of like why did iPOD's become to popular when we already have PDA's that can do almost everything that it does and much more.

      Its all about simplicity towards the end user. They want to get from point A to point B as fast and easily as possible. And the fact that the balckBerry and the iPOD have been huge successes says enough..

    • Re:Future blackberry market? Is there one? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by marauder404 ( 553310 ) <marauder404 @ y a h o o.com> on Thursday December 15, 2005 @03:14PM (#14266777)

      There are many devices that do a lot of things better than a BlackBerry, but no one does Email better than a BlackBerry does. When you have full Enterprise integration with wireless sync, it's almost like having Outlook everywhere you go. If you read a new email on your BlackBerry, it gets marked as read in Outlook (via Exchange). Reply to an email and it shows up as "replied" and a copy of your email is inserted into your Sent box. It takes some time to get used to, and I didn't like it at first, but now I can't imagine going back to not having it, and I know MANY people that can't live without it.

      If you're using a BlackBerry device with only POP3 accounts or with Exchange without Wireless Sync, there are many other devices, particularly Treos, that are much better suited. The 7100 (which is what I have) has much better phone functionality than previous BlackBerries, but it's not nearly as good as modern, dedicated phone interface (like a Samsung or Sony Ericsson). You really have to be close to your email to appreciate a BlackBerry.

      • That's interesting. Before my h6315 died, I had one of my programmers adapting the SMS-email-notification software to open my Outlook Web Access instead of POP3. Our beta software worked very well, and handled everything the BB seems to do. I _can_ understand how people love it for its simplicity in doing e-mail, though, but for me it just isn't enough. E-mail isn't even a major communication channel for me anymore, there's a myriad of other ways I receive communications, so that is likely why the BB fa
      • I've always wondered why sync two mailboxes when we already have standards like IMAP. 1 mailbox that can't possibly get out of sync.
    • If Blackberry's major market was offering non-techie CEOs an easy to use device, I guess it works fine.

      It isn't just for non-techie CEOs. It's pretty much for ANY non-techies. That includes Salespeople and middle management.

      The Blackberry with T-mobile doesn't even use T-mobiles GPRS Internet plan, they want me to get some Blackberry plan.

      This is most likely because the BlackBerry really shines when connected to the push email server (via the BlackBerry Enterprise Server). If memory serves, T-Mobil

    • Funny, most Blackberry lovers look at it in exactly the opposite way - that their devices are lean, functional, stable machines for doing real work. The Palm and Windows Mobile devices are "pretty" and have lots of useless gadgety features that make them unstable and unsuitable for critical applications.

      Why do you think government, police and financial companies are some of the biggest die-hard Blackberry users? It's because they live and die by e-mail, and the Blackberry is the only device that is really
    • Time marches on... missing is the R&D investment sucked out of RIM to advance their platform. The NTP litigation has done that. What you have in your hand is circa 1996 technology. Missing by todays standards: color, backlight, speakerphone, pda functions, etc...

      What you are missing is that despite the shitty earpiece design RIM got the BusinessClass form factor right. What you are missing is that despite T-mobile's loser Blackberry plan, the functionality RIM got right for the BusinessClass.

      RIM spe
    • I worked at a lawfirm that used Blackberries for everything. You had instant, two-way access to everything that was in Outlook: calendering, contacts, email, attachments (with editing capabilities), the document management system, research and conflict of interest systems, real-time transcription systems, etc. There are so many add on technologies for Blackberry it's not even funny.

      OBTW, most of the representitive part of federal government (The House and Senate, mostly) run off these things.

      I agree, it isn
    • As far as expandability goes, the problem probably lies in that earlier models were very much closed. All the recent (including, if I am not mistaken, 7100 you are referring to) are Java-based (and this is the best Java appliance I have seen so far), hence are very much expandable in terms of additional software. There is not too much stuff around (yet), but like with all the good OSS stuff -- you've got an itch, you can now scratch it :)

      I would have to agree with you a aon a few other points, though: scr

  • Patents? What Patents? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Dynamoo ( 527749 ) * on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:16PM (#14266275) Homepage
    What patents does NTP actually have? None, it seems [engadget.com]. The USPTO has so far indicated that NTP's patents appear to be invalid. So what are they licensing? Pixie dust? What do they actually make? Anything? Have you ever seen their web site?

    So Visto have managed to licence what appears to be a non-existant set of patents from a company no-one has heard of. They must be betting the barn that the US legal system continues to come down hard on RIM and they have to shut up shop. Visto aren't new though, they've been around providing push email services for a while.. so perhaps they just bottled out when the NTP lawyers turned up.

    One final point.. do you think that RIM would be having these problems if it was a US company rather than a Canadian one? Microsoft gets away with infringing patents all the time, but it's yet to be proved that RIM actually *has* and yet they are punished far more harshly than Microsoft ever was.

    • do you think that RIM would be having these problems if it was a US company rather than a Canadian one? Microsoft gets away with infringing patents all the time, but it's yet to be proved that RIM actually *has* and yet they are punished far more harshly than Microsoft ever was.

      I think that is a stretch (and you could target many US megacorps). RIM likely doesn't support Congressional candidates with much cash. I believe the location of a corporation has little effect if that corporation subsidizes campai
    • "So what are they licensing? Pixie dust?"

      Everyone knows pixie dust was patented by Hewlett Packard.

      http://amo.net/NT/07-21-01HP.html [amo.net]

    • Re:Patents? What Patents? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by krbvroc1 ( 725200 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:30PM (#14266408)
      What patents does NTP actually have? None, it seems. The USPTO has so far indicated that NTP's patents appear to be invalid. So what are they licensing? Pixie dust? What do they actually make? Anything? Have you ever seen their web site?

      If you read the link you posted you'll notice that you are stretching it a bit. USPTO rejected 1 of 8 patents they are reviewing. The battle is far from over.

      NTP is a company who exists solely to own a 'patent' portfolio. In my opinion its an example of how bad our patent system is. The founder/co-founder of NTP died in 2004 so this is most likely all being handle by the estate and attorneys who will drag this out forever.

      • I thought it was they finally rejected the last of eight. The 7 others wree rejected previously. But the rejections are not final so the jury is still out.

      • Re:Patents? What Patents? (Score:5, Informative)

        by morzel ( 62033 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:48PM (#14266542)
        If you read the link you posted you'll notice that you are stretching it a bit. USPTO rejected 1 of 8 patents they are reviewing. The battle is far from over.
        Actually, the USPTO rejected the last one, the other seven were already rejected in June. See here [theregister.co.uk] for one article about it. Although these are "preliminary" rejections from the USPTO, they're more than likely to be invalidated.

        NTP has a case as long as at least one claim of one patent is infringed upon. The moment that the USPTO strikes them down definitively, their case ceases to be. Therefore, NTP wants to force a judgement/settlement as soon as possible, while RIM obviously wants to await the final verdict from the USPTO.

        I agree with you that "IP firms" such as NTP are absolutely bollocks, as is the system that allows this to happen (over and over again).

      • I stand corrected. USPTO did just reject the last of 8 patents. All the rejections are preliminary so until they are final, they are not formally invalid though. Due to the glacial USPTO pace, this should be resolved in probably a year.

        Imagine if you dont have hundreds of millions of dollars to defend against this? I also wonder if it werent for the high addiction factor of Blackberries on Capitol Hill whether the USPTO would have even acted at all.

      • Re:Patents? What Patents? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Surt ( 22457 )
        I tend to think the US patent system is awful, but this particular aspect I find perfectly palatable. If you accept for a moment that some patent might be valid, it is then easy to make a leap that one way for an inventor to get a fair payout for his invention would be to sell that invention to a patent holding company with the resources to handle licensing, and to pursue claims against violators. Many many inventors do not have the resources to do all this themselves (yet surely we'd still like to encour
    • So what are they licensing? Pixie dust?
      Actually, I think IBM may already have a patent on Pixie Dust [ibm.com]
    • A case... which without proof that they are actively pursuing the development of their technology is shakey. NTP have proved they are willing to blackmail the market for using its technology. Licensing to Visto takes the BlackmailMonkey off NTP's back and positions their IP in terms of serving a marketplace.

      I don't think it serves their RIM case but is a firewall defense to future litigants.

  • What a Stupid Headline (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:21PM (#14266319)
    Bullet Points with a Passion:

    * NTP licensed their patents to an existing player named Visto. They also gained a stake in them as a result.
    * This is the same Visto that sued Microsoft today for patent infringement [com.com] with their Windows Mobile 5.0 software and it's ability to send/receive e-mail.
    * This "new" competitor has been in business since 1996. I've been personally aware of their e-mail solution for the last couple years.
    • Let's see. Visto "licenses" invalid patent tech from NTP (Visto gives some money to NTP). NTP acquires an equity stake in Visto (NTP gives Visto their money back). Visto files suit against MS.

      Now, why did Visto do this if the patents are invalid (at least on a preliminary basis per the USPTO)? Was the Visto "IP" not good enough to sue MS without the NTP "IP"? If so, why didn't NTP sue MS?

      Somethings smells very fishy.

  • Information (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Spazntwich ( 208070 )
    This seems relevant, and it's been on my mind for a while, so I might as well ask it here.

    Does anyone here have a working understanding of how software patents came about in America, or how they got so out of hand? This one strikes me as particularly idiotic, being that they patented... wireless email.

    Hell, I sent out an email a few minutes ago and I'm currently on a wireless LAN. Does that mean I or Yahoo! (technically) owe these fucks royalties?
    • Does anyone here have a working understanding of how software patents came about in America, or how they got so out of hand?
      It's in the US Constitution. However, given any system, (information, political, legislative, or otherwise), the entropy of human nature drives the system to perversion.

  • zzzzz (Score:1, Redundant)

    by tehshen ( 794722 )
    Announced? Wake me up when it's released, please.

  • Corporate Cannibalism (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Saint37 ( 932002 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:26PM (#14266373)
    Wow, a ridiculous patent system backed by corporations now results in the very same corporations going after each other based on ideas that are almost intuitive. Pretty soon some company will patent the process of breathing. Think it's far fetched? We'll living things are patentable.

    http://www.stockmarketgarden.com/ [stockmarketgarden.com]
  • It comes with the default "straw-" skin but will come with different skins: "blue-", "red-", and "rasp-". Even a novel skin "black-" will make it's debut when RIM goes down in flaming glory after the Strawberry squashes the Blackberry.

  • Plan (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Spy der Mann ( 805235 )
    1. Patent obvious idea but never implement it
    2. Wait till a fool does
    3. Sue / License
    4. Profit!!

    Don't we love America? :D

    • Re:Plan (Score:4, Informative)

      by JeffSh ( 71237 ) <jeffslashdotNO@SPAMm0m0.org> on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:33PM (#14266432)
      "A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted upon the new machine, manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required."

      http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/i ndex.html#whatpat [uspto.gov]
      • "A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted upon the new machine, manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required."

        Oh yeah, because that's how things have worked this past decade. Someone writes up 100 pages completely dodging any real description of the "machine" and it's considered an explanation and therefore v

      • And fortunantly we all know that rule is actively enforced. Anti-Gravity Patent [nationalgeographic.com]
      • Yeah, but that doesn't mean it has to be in production. Many mega corps like IBM, MS, HP, etc, are patent engines. They come up with cool ideas, build a prototype, and presto, the "new machine" requirements is compete!

    • Re:Plan (Score:4, Insightful)

      by RedCard ( 302122 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:41PM (#14266498)
      1. Patent obvious idea but never implement it
      2. Wait till a fool does
      3. Sue / License
      4. Profit!!
      Don't we love America? :D

      That's the thing about RIM, though.
        Live [theregister.co.uk] by [theregister.co.uk] the [theregister.co.uk] sword [theregister.co.uk] and all that...
      • The only concrete example, in those you linked to, of RIM suing for patent infringement is for the QWERTY keyboard on a handheld device. Note that at the time, RIM not only held the patent, they were also actively producing a device using the patent. This is not like NTP, which simply sat on its patent until someone made tons of money off of a similar idea, then loosed the attack sharks.

        • Re:Plan (Score:3, Interesting)

          by RedCard ( 302122 )
          The only concrete example, in those you linked to, of RIM suing for patent infringement is for the QWERTY keyboard on a handheld device

          Oh really? Well, here you go. [google.ca] You can pick through them on your own time, as there are an abundance of examples.
          • Well, I picked through the first two pages. Still, all I found were three cases of RIM initiating a lawsuit. The first was against Handspring, for allegedly infringing on their keyboard patent. However, it's not just a keyboard patent. One of the links on the google search you sent me to explained it a little bit more thoroughly [theregister.co.uk], while taking a stab at the professionalism of The Register as well.

            The patent is in fact for a QWERTY keyboard _and_ thumbwheel, optimised for use with the thumbs, on a mobile
            • I'm done with it.

              But I'm going to have to close by asking the same question that The Register did of the (apparently only) letter sent to their site that mounted a similarly enthusiastic defense:
              "Are you an employee or shareholder in RIM?"
              • Nope. In fact, I'm even a bit prejudiced against them, as I've seen the crap they make some of their employees put up with. I'm simply defending a company with an actual product that injects value into the economy, against a patent squatting firm that does nothing of the sort.

                It's clear, however, that you can't take the time to support your viewpoint. So I'm content to let it drop as well.

                Cheers.

  • Palm Treo 650 PDA (Score:1, Redundant)

    by digitaldc ( 879047 ) *
    http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo65 0/ [palm.com]

    Why isn't this a Blackberry competitor?
    • I believe because email is pushed to the blackberry ... with this device i believe you poll the mail server ...

  • Suing Microsoft (Score:4, Informative)

    by thebdj ( 768618 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:28PM (#14266392) Journal
    On a side note, the company NTP signed a licensing agreement with, Visto, also filed a lawsuit against Microsoft yesterday claiming infringement on the three of the patents they hold. Alas, I have submitted the story and awaiting for approval, but it appears that NTP also acquired a stake in Visto. Interestingly enough, it seems the Visto claims are somewhat similar to the NTP v. RIM, but that could just be the media talking again. It is possible the patents in question actually deal with another part of the wireless e-mail chain and that the media is just getting confused amongst the technology again.
    • One more step on the path for Microsoft to take over RIM's market.

      Watch for Microsoft to 'settle' with Visto, they'll exchange money and cross-licensing agreements. Microsoft will then have clear license to these patents. Since NTP owns part of Visto they'll be able to continue to fight RIM with the money from Microsoft.

      At some time in the distant future the Microsoft/NTP relationship will become clear.

      You didn't really think Microsoft was going to allow RIM to be more successful than Microsoft in an area

  • Is the Treo next? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mpath ( 555000 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:29PM (#14266399)
    With such a generic patent (wireless email) and success against RIM, will they go after the Treo next? Other "smartphones" ?

  • Could be good long term...hear me out (Score:5, Insightful)

    by geoffrobinson ( 109879 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:37PM (#14266454) Homepage
    How many mayors, governors, Congressmen, CEOs, executives have Blackberries? A lot.

    Maybe if they feel the pain of the patent system they will put pressure on to change it.

    Granted, nothing may come of it. But change rarely happens without convincing people of a need for change.

    How many times have you gotten your server/whatever by on a limited budget. What's the best way to get the appropriate amount of resources without requiring unnecessary heroics? Let something break so people see the need.

    That can backfire, but it is still the best way.

  • "We felt [NTP's] patent portfolio was something that would provide our customers with the added insurance on top of what our portfolio provided."

    Added insurance.

    Not a better technology, just insurance that the products and services we sell you wont be ripped away. Is that what the patent system has become?
    • the quote sure does make the corollary between a patent portfolio and mafia-like activity an easy one.

      president of NTP says: "Hey, yous want some insurance against these hooligans? im sure it would be good for your business... if you know what i mean."
    • I used to work for a company that had infringed on a seemingly obvious patent. The solution was to arrange a licensing arrangement that included indemnification of our clients against further suit. Fortunately for that company the patent expires in two years.

      My point is, this isn't an uncommon arrangement.

      These companies provide a valuable service in our economy:

      You an inventor build a widget, X. You invest a lot of time and effort into this and, as a sort-of reward/encouragement, you are granted a monopoly

  • Another take on this story..... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by 8127972 ( 73495 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:41PM (#14266493)
    From Canada'a Globe And Mail:

    http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM .20051214.wrimm1214/BNStory/Technology/ [globetechnology.com]

    Of note from the story:

    "Donald Stout, a patent lawyer and co-founder of NTP, said the deal should help his firm's case before the patent office. "RIM has been saying our patents are no good, but we have had three major companies sign up to license them. If there was nothing there, no one would deal with us," he said. "This suggests we can do business with people and licences get worked out.""

    • ...has been saying our patents are no good, but we have had three major companies sign up to license them


      Why does that quote remind me of the Rambus debacle when they claimed patents on SDRAM, they also got companies like Samsung to "license" their technologies, at least temporarily.

  • My Idea for Patent Reform (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rolfwind ( 528248 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:41PM (#14266496)
    1. Go back to old way patents were done - which includes working implementation upon application. Thus ideas become unpatentable. Same with business methods. It will also render 90% all the unreadable legalese to obscure what you are patenting obsolete.

    2. Punish non-English application. No, I don't mean application in a foreign language, just the ones that read like they are. Plain english is a must. Jail time in Gitmo otherwise.

    2. Raise price to apply for patent to $10,000 - while it may seem to screw the "little guy" it actually will kill corporations trying to patent every little thing. Even a little operation will be able to afford to patent 1 worthwhile application, but will corporate America still be able to afford to apply for 10's of thousands of trivial patents?

    3. Part of application fee (say 1/2) will go as a bounty to anybody who can disprove it - in other words show prior art, etcetera. This could be anybody - college students, professors, employees of another company.

    That's it:)

    • Raise price to apply for patent to $10,000

      If you figure in lawyer's fees, it already costs more than $10,000 to apply for a patent. I frankly doubt that application fees would help in any way whatsoever -- speaking as the named inventor on 9 patents and a pile of applications.

      The only workable solution I can think of is imposing liability on the inventor to find prior art and prove novelty: if your patent gets invalidated, you are held liable for restraint of trade. I think a lot of folks -- particul

      • The only workable solution I can think of is imposing liability on the inventor to find prior art and prove novelty: if your patent gets invalidated, you are held liable for restraint of trade. I think a lot of folks -- particularly "IP speculators" -- would walk away from their patents in that environment.

        Then raise the price, $10,000 is figure thrown out there.

        I think the key is the bounty system. It's would be a good adversarial system (most good systems in nature are, capitalism is supposed to be good

    • I think the biggest thing that needs to be done to patents is make them the property of the inventor, and non-trasferable to anyone else. if a company wants to lisence the use of the patent they contact the inventor, if they want to make a portfolio of hundreds of patents, they'll have to hire all the people that invented the items, if that person dies, the patent expires on the spot.

      this still provides the incentive to create that the patent system was designed for, while providing a strong discouragment t
      • ...if that person dies, the patent expires on the spot.

        So, correct me if I'm wrong, but if the patent has expired anyone is free to put it to use?

        Then what is to stop patent inventors from being killed off so that Big Evil Corperation A so that they can use the patent without paying a fee?

    • Raise price to apply for patent to $10,000 - while it may seem to screw the "little guy" it actually will kill corporations trying to patent every little thing. Even a little operation will be able to afford to patent 1 worthwhile application, but will corporate America still be able to afford to apply for 10's of thousands of trivial patents?

      First, I'd like to point out the humor in you having two number 2s.

      Second, I like most of your idea above, except this point. I think it does screw everyone over

    • 3. Part of application fee (say 1/2) will go as a bounty to anybody who can disprove it - in other words show prior art, etcetera. This could be anybody - college students, professors, employees of another company.

      Yeah, that's a good idea. Possibly even *all* of the application fee should go as bounty; that way the patent office makes a *loss* on revoked patents. You don't want the patent office making a profit- that's the current system and that's why it's so easy to get a patent.

      You also want to give

  • BB vs Treo vs Windows (Score:3, Interesting)

    by syslog ( 535048 ) <naeem@NosPAm.bari.cc> on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:55PM (#14266594)
    We develop software for various Black berries, Treo 650, several Windows PDA Phones, as well as some symbian based phones as well. Here is my take on it.

    The BB has probably the best j2me support. Very easy to program for. Supports many JSRs without much nonsense. I don't care for the form factor or the scrollwheel though. The push email is very nice, though not necessary, for me.
    The Treo 650 is a pretty sweet device. This is my primary phone/pda.The latest software patches seem to have made it fairly stable. The keyboard is the best, the screen is amazing. Developing daemon software for it in j2me is not feasible, however, since the device suspends java apps when the screen turns off (which is all the time). However, we are dedoing our app in Palm's native stuff, and it is not bad.
    The windows phones are not too bad either (Sprint 6600, 6601, 6700). We did have to redevelop our software in .Net for it, but again, this was not a huge deal. I don't like the keyboard much, but otherwise, not too shabby.

    So, for anyone to select what they like from these devices for daily use, it would probably come down to personal preference. My favorite is the Treo 650. But the others definitely have their own stuff that can make them more attractive to users of a different profile.

    -naeem

    [shameless plug]Check out our company, Agilis Systems [agilissystems.com] for GPS tracking and Mobile Resource Management software[/shameless plug]

  • whole cloth? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Fishstick ( 150821 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @02:58PM (#14266627) Journal
    not being entirely sure of the phrase's meaning:

    Cut out of whole cloth [phrases.org.uk]

    CUT OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH - "Wholly false; without foundation of truth. Back in the fifteenth century, 'whole cloth' was used synonymously with 'broad cloth,' that is, cloth that ran the full width of the loom. The term dropped into disuse along in the eighteenth century, except in the figurative sense. In early use, the phrase retained much of the literal meaning, a thing was fabricated out of the full amount or extent of that which composed it.But by the nineteenth century it would appear that tailors or others who made garments were pulling the wool over the eyes of their customers, for, especially in the United States, the expression came to have just the OPPOSITE meaning. Instead of using whole material, as they advertised, they were really using patched or pieced goods, or, it might be, cloth which had been falsely stretched to appear to be of full width." From "A Hog on Ice" by Charles Earle Funke (1948, Harper & Row)

    So when they say "they're creating a competitor to Blackberry out of whole cloth", what are they implying?

  • Blackberry marketplace (Score:4, Funny)

    by __aamcgs2220 ( 792986 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @03:07PM (#14266718)
    It's surprising to me that there is one very large group in the portable email device market that is consistently overlooked: Drug dealers. If there is any group that depends wholly on reliability of their Blackberry devices and could benefit from competition, it would be the miscellaneous crack, heroin, and meth dealers that inhabit our neighborhoods, hallways, and emergency rooms. They provide an invaluable service to congressmen and other miscellaneous lawyers, airline pilots, musicians, school bus drivers, doctors, clergy, SCO executives, Courtney Love, and daycare providers across the country. Their lives are on the line every day, and if there is no reliable wireless email system for these upstanding members of society, the entire industry will fail to thrive and eventually die. WE CAN'T LET THIS HAPPEN! OUR TRADE GAP WITH CHINA WILL SOAR! Without the drug dealers, there would be no DEA! And what do you suppose we would do then?!?! Go NTP go!

  • NTP's patent is irrelevant (Score:5, Insightful)

    by penguin-collective ( 932038 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @03:22PM (#14266853)
    NTP's patent is pretty much irrelevant; there are plenty of ways of getting real-time E-mail to your device, with polling and IMAP IDLE being the most obvious choices. RIM is only stuck because NTP zeroed in on them early and because (apparently) their implementation infringes.

    RIM could probably have worked around this patent easily. But my impression from using their product a little is that they aren't very good technically anyway.

    So, let NTP and RIM destroy each other; hopefully, companies like Palm will benefit from that.

  • What's the big deal? (Score:3, Funny)

    by duffer_01 ( 184844 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @03:29PM (#14266916) Homepage
    I don't really understand why everyone is getting so upset about this. Do you really think the US government will allow anything to happen to RIM? What is it that one high level government official said? Something like: "You can pry it out of my cold dead hands".

  • To all the Blackberry haters (Score:4, Informative)

    by enantiodromia ( 895412 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @04:10PM (#14267366) Journal
    I have had my 7290 for about two months now, and it is by far the most useful PDA or phone I have ever had, by miles... You think it's only useful for sending mail, and no good as a PDA? I will venture to guess you were not using a Blackberry + BES + Exchange server. Writing myself a task or note, having it sync with the Exchange server is the most useful thing ever. Having full on Exchange Contacts, Tasks, Mail, Calendar, etc., a QWERTY keyboard, an extremely well thought out interface... what more do you need in a PDA? I dont even need to sync it with my laptop, ever, because I use BES. It's all done over the air, in about 2 seconds. I leave my laptop at work now over night, since I have full access to my mail server and all its goodies, plus SSH through the Idokorro SSH/telnet client, on my Blackberry. Help me understand why this is not a good PDA?

    • BES.. it's great when it works. (Score:4, Informative)

      by don_bear_wilkinson ( 934537 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @05:21PM (#14267966)
      I worked six months as a TechSup Engineer for the largest Exchange hosting company in the US/World and I learned a lot about handhelds and who uses them for what.

      We supported ActiveSync, OMA, Good and BES. Not mention IMAP, OWA, etc. By far, the BB/BES piece was the most broken. Now, I left the co. just as BES Server 4.0 SP2 was rolling, so it may be better now, but we got easily 4-to-1 gripes for BB/BES over Good and or Activesync. The most common, but not the only problem? Over and over and over - wireless synchronization with the server would just break.

      No, not because we did not know what we were doing, either. The company I worked for was a Microsoft Gold Certified partner and they consulted with us for their development and QA of Exchange Server (especially) as a hosted service. We had great access to information and support at M$.

      We would spend hours diagnosing BB h/w, Exchange server, BES Server, wireless networks, etc. Sometimes wiping handhelds, sometimes deleting and recreating accounts on BES (and losing useful message status info), sometime replacing the BB, etc. It was often a mystery as to what went wrong and which of the several things we tried might have actually been the fix. Sometimes, it would just fix itself, if you struggled long enough.

      And then there's the cost. Of course, most BB owners seem to be mucky-mucks that aren't paying out of their pockets in the first place. Their BB is paid for by you and me... err, their company/gov't... who gets their money from you and me. If you run your own BES server, there's a very substantial licensing cost. Then there's the "Blackberry Enterprise" mail service that most WSPs hit you for.

      Then there is the Treo650. Except for the unconscionably small amount of usuable RAM, it seems to be a great device. More apps, an interface and form factor most people seem to prefer, etc.

      The Pocket PCs seemed to be a really strong product too. Especially with expansion slot/card options. Add free ActiveSync built into Exchange Server and no extra charge from your WSP and you're in nice shape.

      I don't own any of them, but when I go to buy, it will NOT be a BB.
    • I agree - I bought an 8700 a few weeks ago, and I'm already hopelessly addicted to this thing. I've been on a search for a decent smartphone for a year now, starting with the Treo 650, looking at Windows Mobile solutions, going to the old "flip phone + dedicated PDA" route, and finally landing on the BlackBerry. There's no going back (and yeah, OTA sync with a BES is incredible).

      The only thing I wish for is a decent Exchange client for OS X (for some reason, Entourage won't connect to my Exchange serve
    • I've got a t7100. I hate the smart keyboard. It's not smart enough. I should have gotten something else. The regular black berry is to large. The t7100 is perfect size, it's just that the keyboard sucks. Also, I would like to kill T-Mobile for *disabling* features of it. I should be able ot choose how I wish to use the bluetooth. It should work with my BMW's bluetooth if I want it too, but T-Mobile decided for me that it won't. I should be able to transfer data with bluetooth to my computer.... No

  • Blame Canada (Score:3, Insightful)

    by GISGEOLOGYGEEK ( 708023 ) on Thursday December 15, 2005 @04:53PM (#14267736)
    American courts helping a Canadian company?

    no way. Goodbye RIM, no matter how invalid NTP's patent scam is.

    • Who modded this Insightful? If anything it should have been Troll or Flamebait. I love how everyone hates the United States, yet almost everything they enjoy in life is in response to how the United States has changed the world. (Not the the US did it all, but the US inspired the rest of the world) Capitalism gave you the Internet, remote control, and incredible amounts of other technologies today due to the space research. (I like how some people give CERN credit for inventing the Internet, they didn't.
      • So, only the USA can do anything at all useful, and if you didnt do it, you think you should take the credit for somehow inspiring us.

        So the CANADIAN company that created the blackberry was somehow inspired by a stinky dipshit like you? sure. You can barely write a coherent sentance and you think our greatness is derived from you. You probably don't even know where Canada is!

        Of course the USA has changed the world. The world now knows that regardless of any logic or any LACK of evidence you will freely ru
  • The patent office has soundly rejected all claims of the NTP patent on reexam. The Examiner does not sound happy. See PTO PAIR site [uspto.gov] for the rejection, entitled "Reexam - Non-Final Action."

    Now you too can deal with the horrible USPTO PAIR website.

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