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Power Sony Technology

Sony Develops Buckyball Fuel Cell 188

Jonny Marx wrote to mention a post over at Digital World Tokyo detailing Sony's latest fuel cell technology, which uses Fullerenes (Buckyballs) to achieve a lot of power in a little space. From the article: "... The technology looks like a significant step in the right direction toward the development of DMFCs powerful enough to supplement or replace lithium batteries for handheld gadgets. Methanol leakage and power output have been the devilish details that have stopped DMFCs becoming widespread, along with regulations that are still being hammered out to allow methanol to be carried aboard passenger aircraft, and a methanol fuel infrastructure, i.e. being able to pick up refills at Japan's ubiquitous konbini (convenience stores) for example."
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Sony Develops Buckyball Fuel Cell

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  • Trixy! (Score:5, Funny)

    by mister_llah ( 891540 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:33AM (#14177153) Homepage Journal
    Wait a second! You tricksters!

    That's not fuel! That's a fruit roll up!

    [if you don't get it, at least LOAD the article]
  • by jimmyhat3939 ( 931746 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:35AM (#14177162) Homepage
    Is it just me, or is anyone else weirded out by the notion of carrying around a tin full of methanol to power up your gadgets? Can you really imagine being, say, on a plane or in a subway and whipping out a can of this stuff to "top off" your gadgets?

    Realistically, I think they'll have to develop some kind of disposable delivery system, maybe something that looks like batteries, that you jam into your gadget and throw away when it's out of fuel (or maybe it could be refillable). Question would be, how much fuel do you need to give you, say, 15 hours of play time? Would it fit in one or two double-A size batteries, or would you need to carry around a jug of the stuff?

    • I think it's just you. Can you imagine what life would be like if some biological machines had to carry around some fuel to top off their own tanks from time to time? Yeah, that's right, we do the same thing carrying around a snickers as you'd be doing carrying around a tin of methanol-and-buckministerfullerene-laced gellatin.

      Most likely this technology would be rechargeable; soak it in a special bath and it "recharges". Of course, in order not to deal with volitale chemicals at home, you'd send it off t
    • by David Hume ( 200499 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:09AM (#14177256) Homepage
      Is it just me, or is anyone else weirded out by the notion of carrying around a tin full of methanol to power up your gadgets?
      The year is 1908. One man on horseback is talking to another men on horseback as they see their first Model T Ford.

      Sam says, "Is it just me, or is anyone else weirded out about driving around while sitting on top of a tank of gasoline?"

      "No, partner, it ain't just you. Flicker may gave me trouble at times, but at least I know he's not going to explode," replies Dusty.

      Sam, thinks and says, "It's not like I'm I'm afraid or nothing, but it looks like those things can go pretty damn fast, and there are more and more of them every day. Can you imagine the things running into each other, each loaded with gasoline? Can you imagine the fires and such?"

      • I'm always amused by these buggy whip analogies.

        It's always so simple to dismiss legitimate concerns with a flip of the luddite name-calling (this attitude usually comes from the software people who have never actually built anything).

        The automobile replaced the horse - do you have a replacement for the automobile? Could you even begin to start studying a replacement for the automobile without a few dozens of millions of dollars?

        In the model T days, a few smart guys could get together and tinker and c
    • by pilgrim23 ( 716938 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:16AM (#14177273)
      BuckeyBalls? oh my...has anyone been cruel enough to say: "Fuller Up Please!" ?
    • by shmlco ( 594907 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:24AM (#14177293) Homepage
      Yeah, to me this is going off in entirely the wrong direction. Which would you rather do? Plug your notebook into any available electrical outlet to recharge it, or continually buy gallons of fuel at the store just so you can bring them home and use them to fill up little fuel cells?

      Maybe if they can scale it up for automobiles the technology will be worthwhile, but for consumer devices? No way.

      • If you use your laptop until its battery dies on the train, aircraft etc, you're screwed until you can plug it into a power socket, and leave it there an hour or two. Whereas if you have a fuel cell laptop, you pick up a disposable recharge at the airport lounge, psshht into a refueling hole, switch back on, ready to go.

        Fuel is the most compact chemical energy store. That's why a car can run much further on a tank of gas than a whole bank of batteries. So a fuel cell will last longer than a battery, and you
        • If you often find yourself in such a situation I'd get the spare battry. I mean, if you're going to be carrying a spare "recharger" in the first place, one is as good as the other.

          Again, this is back to the razor-and-blades, printer-and-ink model of power delivery. I don't want to buy a gallon of fuel, or a couple of six packs of cartridges every week just to use my notebook. Assuming, of course, that I can, and that the vendors don't sell sealed cartridges "designed" to "work" only with their notebooks.

    • I'd be no more weirded out by carrying arount methanol cells to power stuff than by carrying regular batteries (you know, those contain flesh-eating acids!). Or by the amount of places where you can buy 5-20% solutions of ethanol, just to ingest.

      Fuel cells, if properly standardized, would be a great replacement for regular batteries and most rechargables. Perhaps not for laptops, because the battery in there is really more of a backup scheme than anything else - as soon as you see a power outlet you want to
      • But things like phones, cameras, MP3 players and PDAs usually have a Li-Ion battery which can be easily recharged by docking station, plug in cable or (potentially in the future) induction chargers. Fuel cells of any flavour have no such 'easy' top-up system unless there's a way to run the fuel of your choice to standardised wall sockets, and then to the device.

        However, I can see the benefits of using them as top-up devices for an internal battery, for example you dock your PDA and it charges the Li-Ion usi
        • The thing is, I have separate chargers for my PDA, phone, laptop, MP3 player, etc.

          What you want is either
          a) a standardized charge(r) (like, 5V, 1A - which isn't likely to please everyone)
          b) some way of hooking up some sort of energy cell in series, so you can get whatever voltage you like in 1.2-1.5V steps

          AA batteries do the latter. Problem is, they don't pack much of a punch, even the NiMh ones (which you need to charge, incidentally). Li-Ion cells pack 3.6V, which is a tad much for some applications; they
        • Empty cartridges could perhaps be traded in for a discount on full ones, and then be refilled and repackaged externally.

          Yeah, that worked out well for bottles and cans.

          Unless the stores themselves have the equipment to recharge them, shipping costs alone would probably negate the benefit of reusing a container, let alone testing them before they're resold.
    • Is it just me, or is anyone else weirded out by the notion of carrying around a tin full of methanol to power up your gadgets? Can you really imagine being, say, on a plane or in a subway and whipping out a can of this stuff to "top off" your gadgets? Realistically, I think they'll have to develop some kind of disposable delivery system

      And what about filling vehicles with inflammable liquid fuel? That'll never catch on. They need a sealed, disposable fuel unit to throw in the landfill.

      Anyway, I'd rather

    • It's just you. Last time I checked, airline companies have no problems with someone carrying tax-free cask strength whiskey (60% ethanol) onto their planes - they even serve alcohol in glasses there! So a small bottle of, say, 20ccs 30% methanol used only to drip a few drops into a fuel cell would be no issue.
    • This immediately made me think about how airport security is only now (after 911) starting to let people carry nail clippers and such on board planes. I wonder what they'll think of the many business travellers wanting to board aeroplanes, potentially each with a small flask of very flamible methanol. They'll think of something to make it work, but it will probably cost the consumer a lot more.
    • I have a long time interest in liquid fuelled small devices. The Origo company in Sweden still makes alcohol fuelled stoves for boats and campers, and the fuel is held in an absorbent matrix in the tank which allows it to be inverted without spilling. The same goes for the traditional kerosene powered miner's lamp; I have one of these pieces of very low tech, and unlike a battery torch it can safely be refuelled while still burning. Now try having your only battery powered torch start to die on you and try
      • iirc only the larger LPG bottles are generally refillable the smaller ones (used by single burner gas stoves etc) are generally disposable.
      • I have one of these pieces of very low tech, and unlike a battery torch it can safely be refuelled while still burning. Now try having your only battery powered torch start to die on you and try to find the batteries in the dark.

        Presumably, you would go find new batteries before the battery powered torch went out, just like you would find the fuel and refill the kerosene lamp before it went out.

    • Smokers that use zippos do this sort of thing now.. So why would it be 'weird'?

      So do some techs that use those butane powered soldering pencils.
    • People carry butane lighters and hip flasks all the time. Hell, they sell more concentrated alcohol than this on most long haul flights already. At least pouring it into your device instead of your mouth won't cause intoxification.

      You do realize that carring a bit of diluted methanol is no less dangerous than carrying a nip of stron brandy, right? (Unless you drink it. Don't drink methanol. It'll be fun for a bit, but then you'll be blind, and nobody likes being blind.)

      People like you need to work on changi
  • So... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:35AM (#14177164)
    This week we like Sony?
    • Re:So... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Pantero Blanco ( 792776 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:40AM (#14177178)
      Not necessarily. We just realize that there are good things and bad things that come out of corporations. Then we try to decide which ones are heavier.
    • Re:So... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Sithech ( 858269 )
      Only until people discover the RFID chip in each cell that's hooked to a micro GPS receiver and calls home so that it can be remotely deactivated if your leave the country or violate other terms of the licensing agreement.
    • This week we like Sony?

      This is probably Sony marketing 'droids putting out press releases to enhance Sony's "feel good" factor after it took a hit with the DRM crap.

      The "feel good" factor is very important for most people when they decide what to buy and thus affects Sony's bottom line.

      Expect to see lots of press releases masquarading as articles in the coming months about all the wonderful things Sony is doing.

      ---

      The majority of modern marketing is nothing more than an arms race to get mind sh

  • by Capeman ( 589717 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:36AM (#14177166)
    On Wikipedia [wikipedia.org].
  • by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:36AM (#14177167) Homepage
    power density of about 100 milliwatt-hours per square centimeter.

    Could someone convert this to furlongs per LoC and tell me what other competing techs like today's laptop batteries have?
    • What makes it even sillier is that the milliwatt-hours is not a unit of power (but rather energy), and square centimeters is not a unit of volume (but rather area). It's about as bad as trying to measure your weight in feet, or the distance from NYC to LA in pounds.
    • Well, modern laptop battery store something around 100 watt-hour. That mean this bucky-ball fuel film should have 1000 square centimeters surface to have the same energy capacity. Into what volume this surface could be packed I have no idea, but if one layer is around 1mm it should be something about the same size and capactity as modern battery.
      • if one layer is around 1mm it should be something about the same size and capactity as modern battery.

        Finally! All the convenience of batteries with none of the hassle of not-occasionally-blowing-up.

        I didn't double-check your math or read the article (I'm a busy guy. I've got Tivo-ed episodes of Will and Grace to watch. I'm beginning to think Will might be gay.), but I hope there's room for improvement on that.
    • It means that if a AA battery was made out of the stuff, you would need 2 of them in a row to get 2/3 the power of one normal dry fuel cell AA battery. Not very efficient, and current technology means that this is not cheap.

      It also means that even the worst laptop battery outlasts this tech by several miles.

    • You only have to know that it's enough power to render toy story in real time.
    • As a power engineering student currently studying fuel cells: this is mostly because the operational characteristics of a fuel cell are almost always desciribed as cell voltage (volts) as a function of current density (mA/cm). If I recall correctly, this has something to do with the gram-cenitmeter-second system being used with the first cells.

      If you want truely evil units of measurement, you should see what happens when the fuel cells' performance is integrated into chemical reactions--grams, kilomoles,
  • This comment is the obligitary flame against Sony for its recent activities, Root-Kit, PSP, etc...
  • by trudyscousin ( 258684 ) * on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:38AM (#14177174)
    ...but I've decided to cut my nose off to spite my face by boycotting Sony because of Sony BMG's recent DRM-o-rama.

    Seriously, this is the Sony I once knew and loved, when it did things like this all the time. Maybe those of us boycotting the entire company because of last month's debacle should adjust things a bit?
    • Considering that very few people I talked to had heard about it before I mentioned it, and most of these people were fairly intelligent, I think that you're hoping for too much. At least they didn't react with apathy when I mentioned it. Don't be cross with yourself for boycotting Sony.If thy hand offend thee, cut it off. If it makes a difference in the big picture, good. If it doesn't, well, at least you didn't compromise your values.
    • Maybe those of us boycotting the entire company because of last month's debacle should adjust things a bit?

      Ya think? I mean, it's like not having anything to do with Joe because his cousin Bob robbed the 7-11 and went to jail. But he's got the same last name, so let's ostracize him! Punish the right people for the right crime, or you turn into the same blind, hatred-spewing zealots you most likely despise.

      • Punish the right people for the right crime, or you turn into the same blind, hatred-spewing zealots you most likely despise.

        Um, Sony is "the right people."

        This isn't the case of Joe and Cousin Bob having the same last name. Sony Music and Sony the Buckyball Fuel Cell Makers is the same company.

        If everyone goes out and buys six trillion dollar's worth of buckyball fuel cells, then Sony will use that money to fund Sony Music when everyone decides to hell with them so that they can keep pumping rootk

        • another way to see this scenario is as the parent's parent described. Lets say Sony is the father and Sony BMG is son #1 and Sony Fuel Cell is son #2. They run a business together. The father takes care of the major stuff but has given son #1 almost all control over the music aspect of the business. Son #2, the smarter one in the family, is in charge of R&D and invents many cool things. However, all money made, no matter what, goes back to the dad and he decides how to redistribute it.

          The parent is wron
          • The real question should be, what's the purpose of the boycott? To kill the company or to make them change their ways? Everyone's answer would probably be different, but to me, a successful boycott would mean the company would apologize and change their ways to make the consumers happier.

            Yeah, but how likely is the company to actually change its spots?

            On a related issue, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestle_boycott [wikipedia.org] about a boycott of a major (probably bigger than Sony?) company that has been going on

          • They're actually expecting to make money from their music business and if sales drop even 5% and they find out it was because people are boycotting them because of the rootkit, you'd think they'd shape up.

            Then you and I disagree, because I don't think they'd shape up. I think the first thing they would do is blame piracy. There is precedent for this. In spite of studies that show numerous causes of CD sales slumps including lack of good products, normal business cycles, increased sales of alternative

    • ...but I've decided to cut my nose off to spite my face by boycotting Sony because of Sony BMG's recent DRM-o-rama.

      Seriously, I think that boycotting Sony in its entirety is a little overkill just because one of their divisions did something outrageous. The rest of Sony still does great things, and boycotting Sony BMG should be enough. In a company as large as Sony, there is enough competition between divisions anyway that a boycott of Sony BMG may hurt their budget just as much as boycotting an indepen

      • I can't imagine what you think Sony, the entire company, has done that would ameliorate what Sony/BMG has done.

        I'm not a good candidate, as I was already boycotting music CDs and movies, and Sony is never going to notice that now I'm boycotting anything that has their name on it, but it would be nice to hear a logical reason why that wasn't the appropriate next step.
    • Maybe those of us boycotting the entire company because of last month's debacle should adjust things a bit?
      Sony could create a perpetual-motion machine and I still wouldn't go near them. Fact is, whatever products Sony come out with, someone else will soon produce a product that does more and/or actively promotes a homebrew community. Buying anything from Sony is just mortgaging your future.
  • by sloths ( 909607 )
    Does this mean in ten years my MiniDisc player will be powered by fuel cells?
    • Sort of. Clearly, it'll be powered by Sony FuelSticks(TM), which are in every way equivalent, but in no way compatible with any other fuel cell technology for no good reason at all, but which cost slightly more.

      You know they're planning it.
  • You'll probably need to hack these to keep them from messing up your equipment. Now where did I put my Scotch tape...
  • Too bad... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ConfusedGuy ( 791335 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:48AM (#14177195) Homepage
    It's too bad that Richard Smalley, co-discoverer of the buckmeisterfullerene, died [acs.org] a few weeks ago. I'm sure he would have loved to finally see some of his research hitting practical consumer markets.

    Rice University hasn't been the same without him. He was sort of a big deal around here.
  • The main problem - which is still not being addressed - is that the decepticons will just steal them for energon cubes.
  • So.. (Score:3, Funny)

    by aurb ( 674003 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:57AM (#14177218)
    ..how long until they create robots powered by alcohol?
    • Re:So.. (Score:3, Informative)

      by kimvette ( 919543 )
      Hubert Farnsworth already did that, about 900 years from now.

      {if you don't get it, you need to watch Futurama}
      • {if you don't get it, you need to watch Futurama}

        (And joke explanations should result in a mandatory 5 hour viewing of Carrot Top and relinquishing of any and all karma).
  • Efficiency? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by headkase ( 533448 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @02:59AM (#14177228)
    The question is how much energy is lost by converting it to this form. If the conversion(s) from sources of energy to user-forms actually pollutes or wastes more transforming along the way then it still needs work or other alternatives should be explored. Practically all the energy (excluding nuclear and gravity) we use originates from the Sun (oil used to be plants, topsoil is mostly plant material...) itself so the ideal solution considering thermodynamics would be to have the form to be a minimal number of transformations from the source as possible.
    • Efficiency doesn't matter.

      This is a replacement powersource for your laptop or other portable device. The purpose of these things is to eliminate the hours it takes to recharge a device. Efficiency, while a factor, is not a primary factor.
      • Efficiency is a concrete factor and being such can be measured independently with matching results, other factors such as "environment", "convenience", "safety" are sometimes much more difficult to measure.
        You're right though, efficiency is usually not the primary factor in most designs.
        • Sure, you can always measure it. But personally, do you really care if the efficiency of a fuel cell 'battery' for a laptop is 50% worse than a Li battery if you get runtimes 8 times longer than the Li battery? For the small amounts of power we're talking about here, efficiency isn't terribly relevent.

          It is far, FAR more relevent when we're talking about using fuel cells in things like cars. That is still a long way off, unfortunately.
    • Practically all the energy...we use originates from the Sun

      That's why we need to extract energy from dirt, so we're not so dependant on this "sun" thing.

      Wait a minute.. forget I said anything.

      *Scribbles patent*

      *Sound of footsteps, door slamming, and car starting and peeling off*
  • by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:01AM (#14177233) Homepage Journal
    I love flying Electric RC stuff. One of the major considerations for an RC power system is weight, which is why NIcd is going out, and LiPo is all the rage now.

    The article was really scant on details, does anyone know approximately what the weight of this device will be? Will fuel cells be able to replace typical LiPo batteries in RC aircraft?

    PS, typing this live from my Karaoke show [7bamboo.com], stop by and say hi :)
  • by woolio ( 927141 ) * on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:01AM (#14177235) Journal
    I thought I once heard that buckyball molecules were extremely hazardous to humans (they would slice/punch holes in cells due to their hardness and not easily got rid of)

    And this device is supposed to be powered from methanol?

    Only in Capitalist America would a device constructed of hazardous materials, fueled by a flammable substance be allowed on an airplane while strictly forbidding toe-nail clippers. (or did the ban on them end?)
  • ... on your laptop will be installed by the battery pack.

  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by gamer4Life ( 803857 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:35AM (#14177316)
    ..but one thing you can't deny is that they innovate, unlike other notorious companies (ie. M$). Their engineers have developed some really great technologies over the years, but unfortunately, some screwballs within the company keep messing things up with excess baggage such as copy protection schemes.

    It's funny how their media business has made alot of money, but it's also their media business that is handcuffing their electronics division from doing better. The executives then look at how well their media business is doing and then appoint the person in charge of it all (Howard Stringer) as CEO. So now their electronics business is even more screwed since they have a content guy in charge. So instead of content supporting their electronic sales, they have electronics supporting their content business.

    Sony should get back to it's roots (no pun intended), and focus on innovative new technologies, and tell it's content and media business to stay out of it.
  • They're using an extremely unusual way of representing the power but lets have a stab at working out how close this is to a battery. 100milliwatts/hrs per square centimetre. Assume a device has a surface area of 4cmx5cm where the stuff could be placed, thats 20cm^2 so that's 2watt hrs. A rechargable NiMH AA is 1.2volts and can go up to 2500mah so 1.2volts * 2.5amps = 3watt hrs So this currently provides 2/3 the power of an AA in a surface area roughly the size of a battery compartment for two AA's. Not a
    • A capacitor can be measured using area, yet how closely you pack the layers determines its volume. Let's assume we can pack a layer of this magic stuff and its insulation/fat in 1mm thickness, and our compartment is 10mm thick. Then we have 20cm^2 * 10 = 200cm^2 of "area", and (assuming your maths is right) 30watt hours - which is a significant improvement.
  • I, for one, will not be inserting any Sony products in any orifice of any computer, without significant pressure and wearing protection.
  • by NeuroManson ( 214835 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @06:26AM (#14177660) Homepage
    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6458 [newscientist.com]

    Carbon molecules called "buckyballs" - which hold great promise for nanotechnology - but have been shown to harm fish have been made safer by scientists.

    The soccer-ball-shaped carbon nanoparticles were shown to cause brain damage in fish and kill water fleas in a study in March 2004. But now a team at Rice University in Houston, Texas, US, has come close to understanding how buckyballs - more formally known as fullerenes - kill cells and how their toxicity can be lowered in human cells.

    Although the toxic nature of the carbon-60 nanoparticles may be useful in medicine, for example in fighting cancer, there are concerns that their potentially widespread use in fuel cells, drug delivery and cosmetics could mean they find their way into the environment, and so into animals and humans.

    "There are a couple of different manufacturers that will, and are, mass producing fullerenes," says Christie Sayes, one of the team. "They could make it into consumer based products: fuel cells and batteries or make-up," she says.

  • Instead of carrying a flask of flammable fluid, or many methanol modules, I can carry alkalines around always. They stay fresh for years, ready for me in case I can't make a quick swap-out of my NiMH rechargables. Plus no blindness, no death due to defects and accidents.

    Is this too complex for people to think about, as they search for the One True Powermedium? Do we have a monomania blinding our judgement, that we have to live up to consumer merchandising a'la Buck Rogers and Trek?

    The only fuel cell I've ev
  • Sounds like a better energy strategy than, say, invading Iraq.
  • Why depend on the current failing "disposable" infrastructure, like buying replacements at convenience stores ("bodegas" in American)? How about rechargers that draw wall power to generate methanol (CH3OH) from water (H2)) and air (CO2, O2, Ar)? Even better, how about a fuelcell powered by natural gas [wikipedia.org] (CH4, C2H6, C3H8, C4H10, H2S) from existing pipes that generates methanol (and pure water)? The distributed system would sequester dangerous atmospheric carbon, reduce the packaging waste and replacement energ
  • by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @01:01PM (#14179028) Homepage Journal
    These buckyfilm batteries still have a way to go. At 100mWh:cm^2, rolled around gaps for methanol flow, they might get 1W:cm^2, which is 3.6Mj:liter. Battery volumetric energy density [millenniumcell.com] about 1Mj:l, while the same (biased) source reports their own sodium borohydride offers 26.3Mj:l, (over 7x), while the more practical and directly comparable DMFCs they mention from their competitors offer about 17.3Mj:l (4.8x).

    The buckyfilm offers a flexible material, which combined with tactile sensor fabrics [slashdot.org] and flexible displays [google.com] will make mobile computing even more convenient. With this early effort already within 20% of the efficiency of inflexible DMFCs, we might be very close to smart clothes and upholstery, integrating computing into all common devices without transforming them into "computers". That might sound pretty dull, but "pedestrian" has come to mean both "completely ordinary" and "conveniently mobile". Fabric is one of the older technologies on which our civilization is based, and revolutionized us when we became smart. Maybe its time to do it again by returning the favor.

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