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Power

Mobile Fuel Cells Soon? 158

Posted by CmdrTaco from the plug-addiction dept.
Mark Leaman writes "Motorola has made a strategic investment in Vancouver based, micro fuel cell developer Tekion with a view to the inevitable rise of the fuel cell as a power source for mobile products. Tekion is creating a new "personal power source", known as the Formira Power Pack, that will fit inside mobile products and enable consumers to stay connected for as long as needed. "
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Mobile Fuel Cells Soon? More

Mobile Fuel Cells Soon?

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  • Honestly, it's about time that we got a new type of power source for mobile products (I'm thinking Cell Phones in particular). Honestly, after I've walked around with my phone for the whole day, I've got 1.5 hours talk time, max. My only questions are: When are we going to start seeing these, and how much is this going to add to the price of a phone?
    • Yeah, but now you'll have to buy thirty different fuel cells for all of your gadgets.
      Make portable mains power. I'd have no problem carrying that around, and it would make a great joy-buzzer.

      • Re:It's about time (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Soruk ( 225361 )
        I have a system based on an auxiliary battery and an inverter, which lives in my car, and can charge when on the move. 240V AC, wherever I want it :)

      • Re:It's about time (Score:4, Insightful)

        by plover ( 150551 ) * on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @01:33PM (#13990154) Homepage Journal
        While your comment is a clever joke, it may not be far off the mark.

        I am concerned about the standardization of the "refueling" functionality. If every fuel cell maker out there uses different valves, nozzles, ports, connectors, whatever for putting fuel in and removing the wastewater, we will jump directly into a confusing nightmare of incompatible plumbing. "Oh, yeah, my cell phone takes a 0.7mm bayonet fuelling nozzle, but my PDA takes a 0.05 inch tapered friction connector." So you still carry four little fuel tanks with you to power your cell phone, PDA, iPod and laptop.

        A different question is what airline is going to let people take devices powered by flammable liquids on board, when they're already disallowing butane lighters?

    • Re:It's about time (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jolyonr ( 560227 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:49AM (#13988761) Homepage
      Honestly, if 1.5hrs talk time on a cellphone is too little for you, then you made a poor choice when deciding which phone to get (ie the features vs battery life dilemna). I keep my old feature-free Nokia 6310i for when I just need a phone, and my nice shiny new 6680 for when I want to pose with a fun gadget.

      We've already had batteries exploding in Nokia phones, can you imagine it with fuel cells - "Oh, the Humanity!".

      Jolyon

    • Re:It's about time (Score:2, Informative)

      by entirety ( 909951 )
      Honestly, the more you say Honestly the more you sound like a liar. :-)

      Am I not a liar?
    • But when will they have little tiny gas pumps to refuel your cell phone? And how much is that going to cost per milli-liter?

      Will this bring back waiting lines at the fuel cell pumps? "Hey! I have an important call, hurry up!"
    • Honestly, it's about time that we got a new type of power source for mobile products (I'm thinking Cell Phones in particular). Honestly, after I've walked around with my phone for the whole day, I've got 1.5 hours talk time, max.

      What kind of ancient phone are you using that gets only 90 minutes of talk time? My first phone (an analog model from Motorola that I bought back in '96 or '97) did better than that.

      • I had one of those first generation Nextel 2 way radio phones and it had horrible battery life. It would last 2 days if you didn't use it but lucky to make it til 5:00 at work if it rang a few times.

        My Nokia 6600 is one of those gadget packed phones and I only have to charge it about once every 2 days. Funny thing is the battery is about 1/10 the size of that old Nextel/Motorola phone.

    • Re:It's about time (Score:3, Insightful)

      by zogger ( 617870 )
      You could have longer talk time, but "the public" insists on smaller phones/laptops whatever every year. If consumers would be content with the size phones were 5 years ago, not giant bagphones like in the olden daze, just what size was common back 5 years ago, with smaller and better electronics but bigger batteries, they would last much longer, even with todays battery technology and more powerful features. When you shrink *both* the battery and the electronics, it's like, what do you (anyone you I mean,

  • Great... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by altoz ( 653655 )
    Now there's no excuse for me to not pick up a call.
    • Now there's no excuse for me to not pick up a call.

      Maybe if your phone was running Windows? Hmmm...

    • Re:Great... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Patrik_AKA_RedX ( 624423 )
      That depends... "Well I was smoking my sigarette while refilling my cellphone and then I woke up in the ambulance. "

    • Re:Great... (Score:2, Funny)

      by Soybean47 ( 885009 )
      Well, you may have lost one excuse for not answering the phone, but you just need to get more creative.. First of all, if you do answer, realize that this won't improve reception. You can still always pull the "Oh, I'm going through a tunnel..." <poorly simulated static noises> "...you're breaking up... what was that?..." Done!

      There are a number of other options too. None are quite as good as the battery one, but you could try:
      1) I forgot to turn the ringer back on after ___________ (e.g. movie, meeti
      • No reasonable person answers their phone in the bathroom

        I reckon I'm pretty reasonable. Why wouldn't you answer the phone . . . just shuffle forward a bit to avoid making a splash.

  • As long as needed? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by LehiNephi ( 695428 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:48AM (#13988746) Journal
    will . . . enable consumers to stay connected for as long as needed.

    The problem is this: battery life is never long enough. This is true for three reasons. First, as battery life improves, consumers come to expect more. Second, electronics manufacturers will see the marketing opportunity in "we have the smallest $gadget on the market", and will put in the smallest acceptable battery. Third, as we have seen with computers, manufacturers will continue to pack (some useful, many not) features, sapping that additional power.

    Granted, fuel cells have considerable energy-density advantages over current chemical cells, but it will never be enough until we have devices that will *never* need a recharge, battery replacement, or refill.
    • Yup. All we need are some RTGs. What do you mean I'll get cancer?
      • All we need are some RTGs.

        Precisely. Though I'm still holding out for SRGs and other more efficient heat engines.

        What do you mean I'll get cancer?

        What d'ya mean, what d'ya mean? You could shield Alpha radiation with a sheet of paper, and Beta radiation with a bit of foil. You'd get more radiation exposure from the Earth's crust than you would a hundred Plutonium-powered cell phones.

    • Re:As long as needed? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Patrik_AKA_RedX ( 624423 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @11:13AM (#13988956) Journal
      Right, the day the fusion-reactor-on-a-chip is available, they'll sell cellphones with build in 50MW laser cannon.
    • Granted, fuel cells have considerable energy-density advantages over current chemical cells, but it will never be enough until we have devices that will *never* need a recharge, battery replacement, or refill.

      "Bart, we obey the laws of physics in this house!"

    • Re:As long as needed? (Score:3, Informative)

      by Ismilar ( 222791 )
      Who is saying that the device needs to be turned off to get a refill? Maybe these things *can* stay connected for as long as needed (as long as you carry around a large jug of fuel and have access to more before the jug runs out).

    • Re:As long as needed? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Surt ( 22457 )
      I don't think that's true. Consider that most people sleep at night, for at least 5 hours on average. Most of us sleep in a place with an electrical outlet. If your device carries a 20 hour charge and can be recharged in 4 hours or less, and a standard ac-plug is folded into the device, will consumers really care that much that they still have to remember to plug in their device before they go to sleep? And with all the attention that processor and device manufacturers are putting on power consumption n
    • It's not the features that take up the power. It's using all the features at once. If you have a phone that plays MP3s, when you aren't playing MP3s, it shouldn't have to draw any more power than a phone that can't play MP3s. It's all in the power management. If you decide to use all the features at once (assuming the device multitasks well enough for it) then yes, it will drain the battery. Otherwise the architecture should be smart enough to step down the power and disable devices not in use. I'm no

  • Water? (Score:4, Funny)

    by dascandy ( 869781 ) <dascandy@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:51AM (#13988773)
    Don't those fuel cells (which iirc commonly work on hydrogen and oxygen) produce water? So you're going to be walking around with a wet spot in your pants...

    Is that your phone or are you happy to see me?
    • They'll probably use ethanol or simular simple alcohol as it's much easier to handle. The wet spot might be embarrising, but getting CO2 (or CO or whatever. I'm not going to look up the exact chemical reaction, as someone would probably point out I made a mistake in it and make me look bad. This way I just look lazy.) poisening on a bus full of cellphone users would be worse.

      Ofcourse I'm joking. Most likely the amount released by each phone would be very small compared to what comes out of a human.
      • Ofcourse I'm joking. Most likely the amount released by each phone would be very small compared to what comes out of a human.

        I'm sure it will be a target for the cause of global warming. Yeah, it's small, but it's adding to the overall green house gasses (assuming your guess of CO2 is right) and that small amount might be just enough to push us over the edge.
        --
        Q
        • If the ethanol comes from say, fermented corn or potatos, the CO2 would already have been "in the loop" so to speak. Its the stuff we're pumping and digging up out of the ground that's adding to our CO2 levels in the atmosphere.

          • Re:Water? (Score:3, Informative)

            by qray ( 805206 )
            Its the stuff we're pumping and digging up out of the ground that's adding to our CO2 levels in the atmosphere.

            But isn't that stuff we pump and dig out of the ground just plant/animal material made up of CO2 that those, once living, things obtained from the atmosphere when they were alive?
            --
            Q

            • Re:Water? (Score:3, Informative)

              by Naffer ( 720686 )
              Carbon in the form of petrochemicals that has been under the ground for several million years is no longer part of the carbon cycle. Reintroducing it to the atmosphere has serious dangers associated with it.

      • Re:Water? (Score:3, Informative)

        by whitehatlurker ( 867714 )
        They'll probably use ethanol

        Apparently [fuelcellscanada.ca] it uses Formic acid [wikipedia.org]. "Things" would get rather itchy if the battery were to leak ;-)

        Of course it begs the question on how the formic acid is produced, and whether it is a "green" process or not.

    • Re:Water? (Score:3, Funny)

      by Red Flayer ( 890720 )
      If you're referring to the wet spot, I think the question would be:

      "Is that your phone or were you happy to see me?"
    • Although this raises the question of having to refuel your phone - I much prefer to drop it onto its base station than having to refill my phone's battery like a Zippo lighter. Or am I missing something?
      • A refill is a lot faster than charging a battery. Imagine going on a camping trip with a backpack full of refills and having a week's worth of charge available. Sure, if your device has removable batteries you could take a lot of batteries with you but that would be expensive and a lot heavier.

  • As long as needed? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tgv ( 254536 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:52AM (#13988780) Journal
    Whoever wrote "as long as needed" probably has some interest in the company, since that's clear marketing speak. Another example of Slashvertising? Or just an attempt to raise the stock price?
    • It's news because it's Motorola, not some self-styled inventor. If Motorola buys in it's likely this will actually happen sometime in the next few years.

      As for "as long as needed," it could work. If they put a tiny backup battery in there so you could switch fuel cartriges without disconnecting your call, you could go on forever, without a large investment in expensive batteries.

  • Capacity is nice, but recharge speed is nicer (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bushcat ( 615449 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:53AM (#13988789)
    I'd like to think that one benefit of a fuel cell is that it can be recharged more rapidly. Given the choice between an 8-hour traditional battery that needs me to be tethered while it's charged, and a fuel cell with a 2-hour life that can be recharged in 2 minutes from a bottle, I'll go for the fuel cell. For most people, it's not battery life that's the problem, it's recharge time.

  • From Ants to Apps (Score:5, Informative)

    by digitaldc ( 879047 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:53AM (#13988791)
    Our technology uses Formira(TM) as a fuel (as opposed to methanol which is used by most other micro fuel cell developers). Formira(TM) is purified and modified formic acid. Formic acid is abundant in nature and its name was derived from the scientific name for the red ant, Formica Rufa, which produces it in large quantities. The high power capability and simple chemistry of Formira(TM) fuel cells allow us to build a product that is less complex than methanol systems and actually fits within portable devices.

    It is interesting that a fuel cell that is very technologically advanced uses formic acid, a chemical produced by one of the smallest of animals, the ant. How many other innovations can be derived from studying the chemical processes in nature?
    Nowhere on the Tekion site does it say how long the cell lasts, but from the chart shown here: http://www.tekion.com/business/index.htm [tekion.com] you can derive that it will be at least twice as long as a conventional Li Ion battery. Excellent work!
    • I'm a little torn on which I'd rather have break open and spill into/onto my clothes and skin: something flammable which will evaporate pretty quickly, or something that will sting like hell and give you a nice chemical burn. Perhaps some chemists can comment?
      • The formic acid battery, when ruptured, is marginally less toxic than the matter-anitmatter battery.
      • Formic acid is not your friend.

      • Re:From Ants to Apps (Score:5, Informative)

        by Xugumad ( 39311 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @12:12PM (#13989414)
        http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/FO/formic_acid.html [ox.ac.uk] gives a good guide to formic acid safety. Highlights include "Corrosive, causes severe burns. Harmful by inhalation, ingestion and through skin absorption. Readily absorbed through skin. Very destructive of mucous membranes and upper respiratory tract, eyes and skin. Severe eye irritant. Inhalation may be fatal." (emphasis theirs).

        I'm thinking I'll go with the flammable myself..
      • Meh. The contents of your typical well-sealed battery, rechargeable or not, aren't very nice to have spilled either.

        Granted, this means you won't be refilling from a gallon jug -- you'll be locked in to some form of replaceable, well-sealed cartridges.

        OTOH it WILL take a bit of time for their safety to be proven and accepted. Will they let you take these things on a plane, for instance?

        (Even if refil cartridges are safe in normal use, could they be willfully forced open and used as some sort of weapon? I wo

        • Re:From Ants to Apps (Score:5, Insightful)

          by ScentCone ( 795499 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @01:13PM (#13989980)
          Granted, this means you won't be refilling from a gallon jug -- you'll be locked in to some form of replaceable, well-sealed cartridges.

          And I think this is my point. We're talking about a supposedly convenient new thing... but it only works if you have access to carefully sealed, probably proprietary injectors of nastiness. A pocketful of Li-ion batteries would probably be just as easy to maintain, and still get you that long usage. Just develop some nice little solar handkerchief to unfold and charge them, or something. But I don't find much liberty in having to depend on a source of formic acid - however stabilized - for my phone to work. It's just like printer ink.
          • Lithium Ion batteries make really good bombs; they tend to explode if not handled, charged, and discharged very specifically. That's why all consumer Li-ion batteries have built-in circuit breakers, are encased in strong plastic, have chargers with the appropriate computer circuitry to monitor the status of the battery and deliver the proper charge, and have proper discharge circuitry built into the device.

            If you want to have some fun take a discharged Li-ion battery, hook it up to an 18v transformer, then
          • Folks, there are acids and there are acids. When a lot of people hear acid they think of something like auto battery acid (hydrochloric acid) or aqua regia or some such, the kind of caustic stuff that burns holes in leather.

            Formic acid is an "organic" acid, a very close cousin to acetic acid, otherwise known as vinegar, and their acidities are not too dissimilar. (The pKa of formic acid is 3.75 and of acetic acid about 4.75.) So when you think of formic acid, you're best off thinking it's a lot like high
    • Produced by the ant, patented by the man
    • Formic acid is also produced by our friend, the Stinging Nettle. Definitely want to seal that up really well, or ensure that if it does leak, that it gets neutralized in the process.

      But batteries also contain scary stuff, and it's been a long time since I've had one leak on me.

    • So this means that if I attach that old ant farm to my cell phone I won't have to ever recharge my cell phone? Cool!

      Now the real question is will I be able to get this through security at the airport and on to the airplane?
    • Ant: "I, for one, welcome our ant-harvesting human overlords..."

  • more detail, please (Score:5, Insightful)

    by HawkinsD ( 267367 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @10:55AM (#13988803)
    Boy, that's a light press release. The main question is unanswered: what does it use for fuel? Gin? Composted elderberries? It says "non-flmmable." Does that mean that the fuel cell itself won't catch fire while you're using it? Does it require a handy liquid-hydrogen refill tank?

    And what the HELL is the deal with the light-blue on white typeface?

    • Re:more detail, please (Score:4, Informative)

      by tradiuz ( 926664 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @11:16AM (#13988984)
      Our technology uses Formira(TM) as a fuel (as opposed to methanol which is used by most other micro fuel cell developers). Formira(TM) is purified and modified formic acid. Formic acid is abundant in nature and its name was derived from the scientific name for the red ant, Formica Rufa, which produces it in large quantities. The high power capability and simple chemistry of Formira(TM) fuel cells allow us to build a product that is less complex than methanol systems and actually fits within portable devices. From TFA.
  • Imagine a cell phone that doesn't need recharging. I'm sure that rescuers at a hurricane scene would have killed for an emergency transmitter like that. Even if something like this isn't as portable as modern flip phones, it could still mean the difference between communicating, and not being able to when electricity from the wall isn't available.

    A golden age of energy accessibility may be at hand, and could open up parts of the third world to modern technology too, if it has a readiliy available power so
  • Will there be some sort of recycling program when they are used up? Or is this another use and toss?
  • that cars are moving toward batteries and electronics are moving toward fuel?
  • In the future, Americans will never leave our cars. At first we'll need whole cars to carry the 5+KW power packs, a charging base station on wheels. Later the cockpit will detatch into a Rascal, like Commander Pike or Jabba the Hut (depending on whether we live on the Coasts or inland), docking in our homes, offices and shopping malls. Eventually they will shrink to truly portable exoskeletons under our recyclable paperlastic suits (with little hoops floating at the cuffs).
  • The fuel cell reactant will come in little cartridges that will use propriatory interfaces. These will be thoroughly patiented to keep 3rd party manufacturers away from the party. They'll use cartridges that stop working after a certain date or when there is still some reactant left. Chances are that use of another manufacturers cartridge will automatically void the warrenty on your phone or laptop.

    Soon, methanol or formic acid (Formira, or whatever the hell they call it) which were previously cheap indus

  • I don't care if it's a fuel cell running alcohol or fusion-on-silicon, what I want is a limited set of standard battery sizes. You know, like we used to have the main four sizes: AAA, AA, C, and D. Last time I went to look for a phone battery, there were about 50 different sizes/connectors/capacities. The only way to buy gadget batteries now is online, because it takes too long to find them in the actual store (where they're not searchable/sortable except using the bluez3 row-by-row algorithm)

    We need a set
  • Buckaroo, givu me za formira...

  • Question (Score:2, Interesting)

    by flyinwhitey ( 928430 )
    One of the main problems with batteries in general is their tendency to become discharged without use.

    Would it be possible to store one of these fuel cells for an extende period (months) without losing the "charge"? I haven't really read much about this particular property of fuel cells. In fact, I can't remember seeing it discussed.

    Any ideas?
    • Well, it's probably more like not running your car. The gasoline just sits there. No degradation of your power supply.

      Batteries discharge because it's possible for the chemical reaction that discharges them to proceed without the external circuit being complete. It's just a lot slower. The problem is that the battery has all the chemicals it needs to run the reaction. You've just put this "valve" (the external circuit) that prevents a good flow of electrons from one side to the other.

      In the case of the

  • Some facts about HCOOH fuel cells... (Score:5, Informative)

    by orzetto ( 545509 ) on Wednesday November 09, 2005 @12:37PM (#13989668)

    I was at AIChE 2005 [aiche.org] (Chemical Engineering stuff if you don't bother to click the link), and followed the fuel-cell topical. These cells did make a few appearances (also last year in Austin already).

    The cell is being researched by professor Richard Masel [uiuc.edu] and his group. It has a relatively low power density, but that's enough for mobile electronics (no, it will not be usable on cars). The reason Masel's group is the only one working on these is that previous results discredited formic acid as a fuel, but Masel's group found out that they were using the wrong catalyst: platinum was being used (as in any other fuel cell), but for formic acid the correct one was actually palladium. Apparently, formic acid has much less problems in membrane permeation than methanol (that is, it does not burn without you using it), and has already passed tests of over 2500 consecutive hours of power production without failure.

    Masel actually complained a bit that this very press release had been delayed one week, last week he could have had the press release at the same time of the conference, and could have mentioned the name of Motorola explicitly.

    Another curious fact is that probably everybody of you reading has eaten some formic acid (it's in various foods), even if the high concentration at which it is used in fuel cells makes it unsuitable for a snack (it is actually going to be "burn" the skin).

    For those interested, here are some abstracts: Present Status of Formic Acid Fuel Cells [confex.com], High Performing Air Breathing Passive Direct Formic Acid Fuel Cell (Dfafc) [confex.com], Magnetic Resonance Imaging (Mri) Microscopy of Operating Direct Formic Acid Fuel Cell (Dfafc) [confex.com], Formic Acid Electro-Oxidation by Pd: Particle Size Effects [confex.com]. Proceedings are however not free for the taking, and one has to buy the CD [omnipress.com] (135 $). No guarantee they contain anything more than the abstracts for the given papers, however.

  • I don't want to read anohter fuel cell article that doesn't link to a product ready to buy. It's been what, a decade? Two? Get with the program.

    These articles are about as useful as powerbook rumor threads. At least the Blacklight Power article was mildly educational.

    Like clockwork, these things appear when people are looking for money. I imagine there will be a Ballard Power article up next.

  • All the red ants running on tiny treadmills inside the cell will be able to escape and will probably bite you!
  • Hi!

    Is there a comparison between expected fuel cell capacity (for a specific size) and LIPO/LION capacity?

    Many thanks,
    Michael
  • BTW, this product is a result of DARPA-funded research at University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign. Here's some info from 2002 about research in progress on batteries (you'll have to scroll down a bit to get to the part about formic acid research at UI-UC).
    http://www.batteriesdigest.com/broad_spedtrum.htm [batteriesdigest.com]

    I've snipped the bit on formic acid cells: "The University of Illinois is investigating small formic acid micro fuel cells. These cells run successfully with formic acid concentrations between 5 and
  • There certainly are a lot of fuel cell fans here, and the "coolness" factor always seems to keep them from thinking about the real pain of having to use fuel cells. Think about the days when you had to buy new alkaline batteries for everything that didn't plug in. You were always buying new batteries. Your batteries would run out, and you would suddenly realize you don't have any extras. You would realize you only had the wrong size batteries. You would realize you forgot to bring extra batteries with you.
    • mmmm it doesn't sound like you understand that these fuelcells ARE "rechargeable"... you simply pour more fuel into them (or insert new cartridges, if that is how the manufacturer decides to construct them. For example, with the methanol cells, just pour some more methanol into the cell and that's it...
  • Well, formic acid, anyway.

    It's interesting because hydrogen or methanol seems to be the preferred fuel, but these guys have chosen formic acid, which is produced by fire ants. Tekion claims the energy density is about double that of other FC technologies.

    ExtremeFuelCells.com link [extremefuelcells.com]

  • So, I know how development cycles go, but release dates on these things always remind me of the old slapstick routine where the guy goes to pick up his hat, only to kick it, tries again, kicks again, ad nauseum. That and it's already not possible to get on a plane with a lighter, there are resrictions on shipping lithium ion. Good luck on getting through the airport with your fuel cell. >;^)
  • There is no magic wand here. As Scotty (RIP) used to say, "Ya kanna change the laws of physics, Captain!" As we try to cram more and more energy into a tiny metal (or plastic) box we must confront the facts. Unless we discover a radically new technology (such as solving the issues involved in commercial manufacture, packaging, and disposal of radioisotope-based power systems) we are confined to how much "oomph" we can shove into a cubic centimeter using a chemical reaction.

    A high-capacity battery is basi

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