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Portables Hardware

Mobile Phone as Home Computer? 187

Posted by CmdrTaco from the something-to-think-about dept.
theodp writes "Citing millions of Japanese consumers as proof it can work, MIT's Philip Greenspun hasissued a call for comments on his hypothesis that the mobile phone can function as a home computer for a substantial number of consumers if it's paired up with an appliance that drives the phone from a full-size keyboard and display."
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Mobile Phone as Home Computer? More

Mobile Phone as Home Computer?

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  • General computers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by panxerox ( 575545 ) * on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:06AM (#13644355)
    This is already happening, as functions of the pc are co opted by smaller dedicated devices, mp3 players, pdas for contact storage and other devices. Its long been known that J6P doesn't need 512mb of video ram or a terabyte of disk storage and as the capabilities of "phones" increases this will become a viable option. Unfortunately this is probably what the content providers really want, a movement away from general purpose computers that give users too much control over the content that they buy. Os and device managers will be able to lock in proprietary file types and of course the OS themselves. No not the end of the personal computer just the end of the general computer.

    • HipTop (Score:5, Interesting)

      by tentimestwenty ( 693290 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:19AM (#13644440)
      A friend bought a new HipTop phone/PDA/camera device. It is amazing. The various functions are about 80% of what a laptop can do, but that 80% is done right and only the stuff you need. It could easily replace most of my phone, e-mail, web and photo needs plus it's always on and you can fit it in your pocket.

      • Re:HipTop (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Cowdog ( 154277 )
        Good luck to your friend ever getting their data back if they ever break their hiptop and decide to move on to anther device. The only way to get your data (address book, email, etc.) is to stay with a hiptop for your next contract, and the next, and the next, and...

        The hiptop is the Hotel California of mobile devices.

        • Re:HipTop (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Anonymous Cowdog ( 154277 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:40AM (#13644561) Journal
          >The hiptop is the Hotel California of mobile devices.

          To clarify why my comment above is relevant to Greenspun's article, if this type of model (lock-in) carries over into a device that does all your computing needs, that would be scary for consumers.

          Right now desktop systems are pretty open. You can write your own programs for them, for example. Phones are much less open. OK, all that is obvious.

          What's not well known outside the hiptop user community is just how closed some systems can be.

          My understanding of the Danger hiptop is this: To put programs you write yourself on a Danger hiptop, you must become a registered developer, and even then you can not share your programs with other users unless they are also registered developers, or unless Danger gives its official stamp of approval that your application will be THE representative application for its category (calculator, etc.) in their commercial catalog. If they have a choice of approving a free calculator program, versus a less nice commercial calculator that their carrier customers will make money from, which one do you think they approve of? That's right, the commercial one.

          Imagine if this model became the model for desktop computing. Everything goes through an approval process, where approval is based on the business interests of some gatekeepers. Not very good for consumers. So while the form factor may be capable as Greenspun suggests, let's hope the business models to not follow.

          • HipTop development (Score:5, Informative)

            by supersat ( 639745 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @02:29PM (#13645847)
            My understanding of the Danger hiptop is this: To put programs you write yourself on a Danger hiptop, you must become a registered developer, and even then you can not share your programs with other users unless they are also registered developers, or unless Danger gives its official stamp of approval that your application will be THE representative application for its category (calculator, etc.) in their commercial catalog.
            This is pretty much the way it is, but it wasn't always that way. You used to be able to freely sign up for a developer key as long as you waived your support rights (although they would provide support in most instances anyway). I'm pretty sure two things led to the demise of that program:

            1. Many high profile sites and publications (like Popular Science [popsci.com]) gave step-by-step instructions on unlocking your hiptop/Sidekick and where to get third-party apps.

            2. An application called Hiptones allowed you to add your own ringtones and circumvent T-Mobile's catalog cash cow. T-Mobile is (or was) the only provider to intentionally disable loading external ringtones via email, so the only other way to get them was to purchase them. The author of Hiptones began selling it, and this made Danger and T-Mobile very unhappy. The author and Danger quickly reached an "agreement" where Hiptones would no longer be sold or available at all, and shortly thereafter, Danger was no longer freely giving out developer keys.

            I'm really tempted to blame T-Mobile and the other carriers here. From my experiences with the Danger crew, it seems like they'd really like the hiptop to be as open as possible, but the carriers are insisting that they lock it down to pad their precious pockets.
          • Great points.

            I'd like to add that when I bought software for my old Nokia 3650 which uses the Symbian Series 60 OS, I was very often asked to register over the air with my phones ID. This not only gave me platform lock-in, but individual phone lock-in as well. The only way to get most of that software onto a new Series 60 phone, or even a replacement if my phone broke, would be to re-buy the software.

            Remember when everyone went ape-shit a few years back when Intel introduced processor IDS? You know how e

        • Re:HipTop (Score:2, Informative)

          by Badlands ( 906315 )
          Your concern is warranted. However, my personal experience with the Sidekick is just the opposite. The concerns are as follows:

          1) if the device breaks, you lose your data. I have broken 2 Sidekicks in 3 years, not surprising because I keep it in my pocket/briefcase/auto seat/wherever, without a case, it is in motion 16 hours a day. The paint is worn off of the edges of my current device. When I receive each new device, I simply move the SIM card and within minutes all of my notes/contacts/numbers ar

      • Re:HipTop (Score:3, Funny)

        by dhasenan ( 758719 )
        The main problem with mobile devices is getting a portable, convenient input method. The current system is unintuitive, involving up to five keypresses for a single letter. This is a suggestion that we change that.

        However, I'd be afraid to run Gentoo on a phone. Not only would GCC take all the space; it would take weeks to compile Openoffice, not just hours.
        • Seems to me the main problem is the number of problems. You have the input method problem, the screen size problem, the compatable periferal problem, the external storage problem and the performance problems.

          All in all mobiles phones are small, (relatively) slow, vendor specific computers. I'd prefer to wait until laptops become smaller and more conveniant (or PDA's become a little more powerful) than wait for mobile phones to become usable as everyday personal computers :-\

          Just my 2 cents.

          • Re:HipTop (Score:4, Informative)

            by badasscat ( 563442 ) <basscadet75NO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Sunday September 25, 2005 @01:50PM (#13645626)
            Seems to me the main problem is the number of problems. You have the input method problem, the screen size problem, the compatable periferal problem, the external storage problem and the performance problems.

            None of which apparently affect Japan, where mobile phones are the primary method of accessing the internet and personal data.

            It's really difficult to understate how much more advanced the Japanese mobile phone industry is than that of any other country (and especially the United States). The problem for the rest of the world that's trying to catch up is that the mobile phone culture has grown in Japan around the idea of the phone as a central hub, whereas it's the opposite in other countries. Learning to use a mobile phone as hub for those of us in the US is like learning a second language. It's not intuitive for us like it is for them.

            But if you want to look at some of the solutions they've come up with for the problems you've listed, they're easily apparent for all to see. The input issue is something that's both better and worse in Japan... typing on a computer keyboard is hardly all that fast to begin with there (you need to type the hiragana, then select kanji combinations from long lists for every word), so mobile phones are not really much different. Screen sizes there are simply bigger than they are here, as is screen quality. 3.2" QVGA screens are pretty much standard. Phones sell based on speed and interface so that's not an issue either (phones with poor interfaces - such as those from Motorola and Nokia - simply don't sell). And external storage is handled in the same way it's handled here - offsite or on a separate PC.

            People do use computers in Japan. But for most people, mobile phones handle 90% of everything they could want to do with a PC. Email, web browsing (via high-speed networks), game playing, etc. There are a huge number of mobile-oriented web sites in Japan - in fact, you really can't design a site in Japan without having a mobile version these days that duplicates all of the functions and most of the look and feel of the real thing. And I'm not just talking single HTML pages, I'm talking about sites that offer real web services via mobile. So there's no dearth of content. Many phones also have TV tuners, almost all phones have java, and most phones have 3D graphics capabilities.

            One other thing, which I think is both interesting and important: their cell phones often do more than most "smart" phones in the US, yet they both cost less than US market cell phones and they are not PDA-based. Their smart-phones grew from the cell phone form factor, whereas ours have grown from the PDA. So we pay more and our phones are less stylish - and style is a huge deal in Japan. (I also think it's a bigger deal here than manufacturers seem to think, and it's one reason why smart-phones here don't sell as well as they could. Put smart-phone type capabilities in a RAZR-like package with a QVGA screen and a 3 megapixel camera and sell it for $300-$400 and you'll sell a crazy number of units. That's what the Japanese industry does.)

            It's still debateable whether it works better to have one big laptop that does 100% of what you want, or whether it's better to have a PC at home to act as a storage and sync device and then to have a bunch of smaller devices (phone, iPod, Game Boy or PSP) to do everything else. In Japan, it's kind of important to have a very small device that you can use on the train to do things like check email and browse the web. You really can't use a laptop, nor do most people want to lug one around. And as an extension of that, over time the carriers and phone manufacturers have added other entertainment-related functions to help people get through those down times.

            I don't know that the culture is ever going to change here, and I don't know that it should either. There are fewer things people really need to use cell phones for here - the train situation, where you've got about one square foot of standing space

        • The main problem with mobile devices is getting a portable, convenient input method. The current system is unintuitive, involving up to five keypresses for a single letter. This is a suggestion that we change that.

          They are trying to solve this little issue. One solution is the T9 Predictive Text [t9.com] mode you'll find on some phones. Personally I hate T9 though, because without extensive editing of the dictionary you usually wind up 'spelling' words you didn't want.
          I just bought a Samsung SGH-P207 though, and

    • Somehow the prosepect of dropping, washing or losing my computer scares me. Why should I want to have my computer so close. For the time being phone computer's are going to be slow. If I can tolerate slow then I can also tolerate mounting my desktop and data over the internet. Eventurally phone's will pick up in processor speed and may even sport video adapters, but by then network desktop mounting will also be fast. So i'm not sanguin about the phone as computer. I'd rather have a nice slim phone wi

  • Done. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dada21 ( 163177 ) * <adam.dada@gmail.com> on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:09AM (#13644379) Homepage Journal


    For the past year, 99% of my data needs have been met with my HP iPAQ h6315 PDA Phone.

    All my /. posts, including this one, are from my phone. Right now I'm at a RR crossing waiting. 3.2 KB/s is enough.

    My news, weather, e-mail, VNC, ftp, Excel and Word apps are perfect -- no bloat.

    My home TV-PC-PVR gets its e-program guide via Bluetooth to my phone to the net. No DSL needed.

    When I'm at a customer's office, my WiFi kicks in, automatically.

    I write articles, use the built in camera (VGA res only) every day, and even use GPS with it.

    No more laptop, desktop or server anywhere. My home TV-PC is nothing but a Tivo made my way. No Internet or office apps.

    FWIW, I type with my cokehead-style thumbnail on screen faster than 90% of people with normal keyboards.

    • Re:Done. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Frankie70 ( 803801 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:44AM (#13644575)
      All my /. posts, including this one, are from my phone. Right now I'm at a RR crossing waiting.

      I am the one in the car behind you. The train has gone & the gates have opened. You are
      blocking traffic. I can't honk any louder.

    • Re:Done. (Score:3, Informative)

      by OS24Ever ( 245667 ) *
      And 10 - 15 years from now you're going to have a permanent hunch in your back from leaning forward and squinting at that tiny screen, of course your coke-bottle glasses to fix your nearsightedness from staring at tiny tiny text for so long might on a good day let you see a person across the room.

      User interfaces to these things have *got* to improve. The people that use these things are in their late teens, and early to mid 20s. Once that thing called 'age' kicks in those tiny ass screens are a huge pai
    • Interesting. I find myself typing on a normal keyboard at least twice as fast as 100% of whoever I see who type with thumbs...

      And I guess my touchtyping speed probably isn't in the top 10%.

  • No (Score:5, Insightful)

    by temojen ( 678985 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:09AM (#13644380) Journal
    So what he's saying is... the phone makes a good computer if you fundamentally change it's features? A full sized keyboard and monitor are not pocket sized. Pnoto.Net [photo.net], Greenspun's own site would be a very different experience on a pocket sized device.
    • The article mainly suggested that we replace a home computer's CPU with a mobile phone. It's implied, or outright stated, that the appliance would have its own hard drive; it'll definitely have its own display, and if you can get a new appliance with different features, you'd need to carry around an indefinite number of drivers on your phone. So your phone OS has to load drivers from the appliance, most likely.

      And why shouldn't we use a computer and a phone, and just connect the two? Viruses (and phones are

    • Re:No (Score:3, Insightful)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      The article stated that the phone can function as a home PC, which I think, if we define a home PC with sufficient limits, is true. Increasingly, the two unique functions that a person uses a PC for is web browsing and email. The other features like texting and talking are already well placed on the phone. Can everyone use the phone as a home pc? Of course not. Does everyone that with home PC fully loaded with XP gain value from that power? Of course not.

      Your second point stems from amateur design o

    • I am on my sidekick more than my computer at home these days. I just read TFA from it. I am typing this now on it. The vastly different experience you referred to must mean outside in the country like I am now.

      If only it were open and broadband.

    • Re:No (Score:2)

      by LS ( 57954 )
      Did you even bother reading the Slashdot STORY, let alone the article??? I don't understand how you got moderated up. The idea is that you would pair up the phone with a stationary device with a keyboard and monitor once you got home (or wherever). Even if this was not made explicit by the story, a tiny bit of logical reasoning would allow you to deduce that no one in their right mind (especially an MIT prof) would suggest that everyone carry around a full sized keyboard and monitor. Or did I just eat t

  • Small mainframe or big calculator? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Dogtanian ( 588974 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:15AM (#13644410) Homepage
    From the article:-

    The PC is a scaled-down circa 1965 mainframe.

    Actually, it's been argued that the microcomputer/personal-computer is actually a scaled up circa 1971 calculator; the first microprocessors were designed for calculator use, and the first microcomputers were exploitations of these by hackers who wanted their own computers. They weren't designed by someone trying to scale down a mainframe, they evolved from someone trying to build a computer from a crude microprocessor.

    But that's perhaps disingenuous; I think what he is referring to is the OS; and it has to be said that as they grew in power, personal computers took their cue more and more from powerful mainframe/minicomputer operating systems like Unix.
    • a smartphone is a scaled down ~10-7 year old pc(memory, cpu power viewpoint).

      so it's not that far from reality to think that you would someday carry around your personal computers cpu/mem etc in your phone and then use keyboards and bigger screens with it while doing work that requires such, or maybe have a built in projector and some projised keyboards.

  • Am I the only person... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by someone300 ( 891284 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:18AM (#13644435)
    .. who thinks that this endless pushing of features onto our mobile phones are stupid?

    Why turn our phones into games consoles, video cameras, mp3 players, computers and whatever else we can fit into it, if it doesn't do anything well? We've got digital cameras that can play mp3s badly, mp3 players that can take photos badly, phones that play mp3s and take photos badly. Most people I know who want to listen to mp3s will use an ipod or zen, since the quality is higher and they have more storage, and most people I know who actually take many photos carry round a digital camera. Most people I know who have a camera phone have used the camera only once or twice.

    On my ideal phone it would have a phone book, ability to phone people, and the ability to function as a modem for my laptop. Just a plain old black and white screen would be fine though. Maybe there should be an ability to keep a small diary/timetable on it, since we carry it round and it could function as an alerting device.

    • No. (Score:2)

      by simetra ( 155655 )
      I agree. It's stupid. IF I wanted to carry a phone around, I'd want one that had buttons big enough for my manly fingers. No display necessary, just a bloody phone.

      I see these things and think; Gee, I can drop this out of my backpack some day and instandly destroy my phone, my mp3 player, my camera... in other words Single Point Of Failure.

      It's crap, oh so much crap.

      No sir (or madam), you are Not Alone.

      • Re:No. (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Jeremi ( 14640 )
        Gee, I can drop this out of my backpack some day and instandly destroy my phone, my mp3 player, my camera... in other words Single Point Of Failure.

        If that worries you then buy two identical phones; they're cheap. That way you have an automatic backup for your phone, your mp3 player, your camera, etc. Sure, you'd have to carry two devices around, but that's still fewer devices than you would have to carry if you had a separate device for each function.

        As far as data loss goes, I agree with previous poster

    • What? Think about it. What if you had a small phone that was an excellent phone, took awesome pictures, was a supurb MP3 player, and played the latest and best games out? Would you want that?

      Eventually the technology will get there. It's crappy now but these are just the first baby steps.

      I know I sure as hell don't want to carry around umpteen different little devices that each can get lost, together take up a lot of space, and each have their own interface to learn when I could just have one small dev
      • Even if it did all of those things, I suspect I'd still need a computer/storage device to store all of my pictures, videos, and music. I doubt I'm going to get a phone with a terabyte drive in the near future.
        • Even if it did all of those things, I suspect I'd still need a computer/storage device to store all of my pictures, videos, and music. I doubt I'm going to get a phone with a terabyte drive in the near future.

          There's this little thing called network storage...
      • I am no fan of 5" sub-VGA displays and $1000 phones... I'd rather have a decent sub-$200 phone and a decent ~$1000 laptop. I personally have a hard time imagining my computing life below WXGA (1280x800)... I am impatiently waiting for WUXGA (1920x1200) LCDs to enter my price range. (Maybe LEPDs/OLEDDs will get there first.)

        There are many problems with cramming features in one device:
        1- miniaturization is costly
        2- more electronics use more power
        3- seamlessly integrating a disparate feature sets is difficult
    • The only good argument I've heard for having a camera on a phone is that you always have your phone on you, but you only grab your bulky camera when you know you are going to need it. And there are times when you wish you had a camera on you.

      Now, as far as mp3 capabilities, I think that any mp3 device that can't hold the bulk of your "active" collection (for me approximately 100 cd's worth of music) isn't worth having. In fact, my ultimate dream is to have a cell phone that has unlimited high-speed net ac
    • Well, you should be. Don't stop watching current, specially the bad implementations of the idea and go to the idea itself.

      For me, if i need to carry devices to do some task, carrying the less possible ones, because they have all those tasks integrated, could be better, specially if do all those tasks well. Integrating in a device that combines a cell phone, a pim, a photo camera, a somewhat flexible internet access, games, ebook reading, mobile storage for data, a calculator, etc, and doing all of them as

    • Re:Am I the only person... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by nine-times ( 778537 ) <nine.times@gmail.com> on Sunday September 25, 2005 @12:17PM (#13645102) Homepage
      On my ideal phone it would have a phone book, ability to phone people, and the ability to function as a modem for my laptop.

      And already we have feature creep, and there's your whole problem. You're saying, "Why do we have phones with all these features? Why don't we have them with only the features I want?! " Your desire for laptop/internet connectivity is another man's camera. Of course we all want the features "I want", and don't really care about anything else.

      • I have one of those. (Bluetooth modem was what I wanted.)

        Ok, it has a camera too, which I don't really care about. The thing is, its OS is complicated enough that it will sometimes just freeze and I have to remove the battery to regain control.

        This may be progress, but it's certainly of the two-steps-forward-one-step-back variety.
         
        • Might I suggest that the problem isn't that the OS is complicated, but that it's of poor quality? It doesn't really matter how many features or how complicated the device is, it's how well the features are implemented and whether the software is well coded.
        • What brand is it? You might want to look into if there is a new firmware out for it that you can upgrade to. (This can typically be done at a local provider.)

    • Re:Am I the only person... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Odd, my samsung i730 makes an excellent phone, excellent mp3 player (with pocket music), excellent medical reference system (merck manual, epocrates, isilo PDA), a good movie player (the screen is slightly small), and an ok gaming system (it's good enough so that I don't have to carry anything else around: age of empires, pinball, skyforce, and warfare incorp are decent games).

      The only thing it doesn't have is a crappy camera, but wake me up when 3 megapixel high-quality cameras start being put into these d
    • "Why turn our phones into games consoles, video cameras, mp3 players, computers and whatever else we can fit into it, if it doesn't do anything well?"

      For the simple reason that something is better than nothing.

      Game consoles: My phone goes with me everywhere. My DS doesn't. I ain't playing Mario 64 on my phone, but the pool game on my phone is good enough to eat up about 10 minutes while waiting for a movie to start or something.

      Video cameras: I don't carry around my Mini-DV camera like anywhere. My pho
    • Most people I know who want to listen to mp3s will use an ipod or zen, since the quality is higher and they have more storage, and most people I know who actually take many photos carry round a digital camera. Most people I know who have a camera phone have used the camera only once or twice.

      I use my camera phone to take quick "notes" and transport information on the go. I have a directory of "store hours" signs from some of my favourite takeaway restaurants, so I can look up if they're open when I ha

    • No, you're not the only person who thinks that.

      Am I the only person who thinks that Phillip Greenspun is just another dot-bomb self-promoter desperate for the easy press coverage of the old days who can be safely ignored?

      Am I the only person who's had enough of con artists and marketroids declaring, decade after decade, that the PC is dead and what consumers really want is vendor lock-in and endless subscription fees?
  • I think that in a couple of years when phones have hardware comparable to say, the PSP [psp-linux.org], this might be a real possibility. I think the biggest barrier to this will be that manufacturers and service providers will try to control the architecture so it is not open like the pc is. Mobile carriers like Vodafone are scared to death of users using free wifi combined with something like Skype to bypass their voice services, which is where they make all their money [economist.com] (Image taken from Economist article [economist.com]). Sony has alre

  • We like to super size (Score:3, Insightful)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:21AM (#13644457)
    Americans like bigger cars, bigger computers, amd more fries. That's just how it is. There's more space in America. And I don't know about others, but I don't like to squint to read stuff and keep clicking scroll. Maybe the Japanese words take up less pixels so this isnt an issue?

    I have heard that it's actually faster to type japanese words on a cell than english words on a keyboard. Can someone confirm or refute this?

    American innovation focuses on making things easier. It's a step backward to have to type on a tiny number keyboard. If there were a better way to input data into the cellphone (touchscreen/voice?), and to read it without squinting or scrolling, then it would sell. It's a whole lot easier to call someone than to text them.

    • We also like small (RAZR, mini's, Nano's). However, I would like to be able to use the 30" screen with a Mac mini. Best of both worlds. *grin*

    • Re:We like to super size (Score:5, Informative)

      by ag0ny ( 59629 ) <javi@lava[ ]ira.net ['nde' in gap]> on Sunday September 25, 2005 @12:21PM (#13645132) Homepage
      I have heard that it's actually faster to type japanese words on a cell than english words on a keyboard. Can someone confirm or refute this?

      Not true. Typing is always faster on a keyboard. Anyway, typing Japanese on a cell phone is WAY faster than typing English (or other roman-alphabet language).

      I'm Spanish, living in Japan, and I have a Spanish friend who's living here too. When we send email to each other from our phones we mostly use Japanese instead of Spanish (even though Spanish is our mother tongue) because it's so fast to type.

      The reason is that when you type Japanese on a phone's keypad you type syllabes (or phonemes) instead of individual letters. And most words are composed by 2-3 phonemes, so typing a full sentence in Japanese often takes as few keystrokes as a single word in English.

      However, when typing Japanese on a keyboard you actually type the letters that compose each individual phoneme. Or at least on the standard input method that most people use. In Windows and many X-Windows input methods it is possible to switch to a mode where each key is assigned a phoneme instead of a single letter. In theory you should be able to type VERY fast in that mode, but in practice you have to learn another keyboard layout [ag0ny.com], so nobody cares.
      • I agree about typing on Japanese phones being very convenient, and I also usually sent mails in Japanese rather than English even to other foreign friends for convenience. Of course, this was more because of the lack of English T9 on the Japanese phones. To write "hello" on an English phone with T9 you'd press "43556", but to write "konnnitiha" (konnichiwa) on a Japanese phone you'd press "2222200055446" (I think, don't have anything to look at). Of course, the phone will probably guess at what you're typin
    • If you read the article, you will see that it is about connecting mobile phones to devices that make it easier to view and input data. I.e. the phone takes the place of the 'cpu' and you use a monitor and keyboard with it.

      The article doesn't really get it though, all you really need is a high resolution screen(hdtv ain't it...), a keyboard and maybe a mouse. Either get storage from an additional box(perhaps your tivo/pvr/whatever) or the network. Or, in 5 years, 10 Gigabytes of flash won't be a big deal, th

  • Yeah, great idea (Score:3)

    by null etc. ( 524767 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:29AM (#13644506)
    The last thing I want is a phone that crashes and is more susceptible to viruses.
  • Slashdot seems to have an infinite source of false prophets. And the higher their qualifications are the worst prophecies they make. The Internet did no collapse as Metcalfe predicted and Tcl did not become the main language for Internet development like Greenspun told us in 1998.

    For a summary of all the stories that would qualify for that section read here [mwscomp.com]

  • Super brainy? check. Major contributor of code to the community? Check. Absurdly over-inflated sense of own intellectual superiority only offset partly by the fact that he's a professor at MIT? check... (dammit!) But let us not forget that this is the man who asserted that only fools would use a differnt technology stack than tcl (for programming) on AOLserver (for HTTP serving) and Oracle, all running on HP/UX (server O/S) for building database-driven websites. A shame, cos the book on the topic he wrote

  • difference between a computer and an appliance (Score:3, Insightful)

    by peter303 ( 12292 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:33AM (#13644525)
    Both a computer and an appliance these days may have a powerful CPU inside, interface screen and controls, and communications capability. An "appliance" hides this under a focused user interface. A computer comes up with a more generalized interface, afterwards you may select a particular fuctionality. For example people think of an iPod as "music appliance", even though it contains more memory than most PCs in the 20th century and nearly as powerful CPU. If you can "see the computer underneath" in an apppliance either the architect was making it multi-purpose, or implemented the user interface poorly.
  • ...more like supporting opinion. It probably should have been included in the article posted yesterday where the president of Sun claimed PCs are relics [slashdot.org] and advocated computing thru mobile phones.

    SSDD

      -Charles

  • A laptop is still a laptop (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ajgeek ( 892406 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:39AM (#13644553)
    It doesn't matter how small our laptops get on the inside (save for cooling purposes), it's still going to have a keyboard and a full sized screen. WE aren't getting any smaller. A mobile phone with a keyboard and a full sized screen is... a laptop, except that it's auto-connected to a wireless phone network.

  • Is this really about phones? (Score:5, Informative)

    by richg74 ( 650636 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @10:40AM (#13644564) Homepage
    After reading TFA, it seems to me that his idea is mostly about how software for "grandma" should be designed. (For exammple, he dismisses the idea of just having better interconnections between cell phones and PCs by arguing that the underlying PC system is still visible to the user.) In other words, I don't see anything that ties this particularly to cell phones, although they do have some obvious thinigs going for them, communications capability in particular.

    Perhaps I'm just being thick, but this seems like another variation on the "make the PC an appliance" theme. The idea certainly has some appeal, but past efforts toward this sort of goal (e.g., the MailStation, WebTV) have had only modest success, if that.

    One other thing: I am slightly skeptical of the use of Japan as a demonstration that a Cell phone can catch on as a general-purpose computing device. The Japanese writing system is complicated: two different sets of ideograms plus a set of phonetic symbols. I think this may mean that the difference in input speed between a regular keyboard and the phone keypad is considerably less in Japanese than in a language that uses the [Western] alphabet. (If you have ever seen a Japanese word processor, I think you'll understand what I'm getting at.)

    • "The Japanese writing system is complicated: two different sets of ideograms plus a set of phonetic symbols. I think this may mean that the difference in input speed between a regular keyboard and the phone keypad is considerably less in Japanese than in a language that uses the [Western] alphabet."

      You're close but a little bit off. Japanese has two syllabaries, and they represent the same sound combinations. This is a bit like our alphabet having two versions of each letter - uppercase and lowercase. Japan
  • What he's really describing is Microsoft's "zero administration PC" concept from 1997, where Central Control in the IT department controls everything on the machine. The user interface concept is borrowed from Go Computer's tablet machine from 1994. The I-opener, circa 1999, had many of the same concepts.

    All were failures.

    The key line in his article is this: Because nearly every Appliance will generate a $200-600 per year DSL or cable modem revenue stream for the carrier ...

    This sounds like a fant

  • This would work (Score:3, Insightful)

    by astrashe ( 7452 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @11:04AM (#13644665) Journal
    Right now, I'm using my PC via an ancient (233Mhz) laptop, via ssh and vnc. I get to use a very light laptop that I bought 3 years ago for $200, and I get the power of my PC's desktop. This laptop is too slow to run a decent desktop convincingly on its own.

    My desktop system is more of a blob of data that I latch on to with different terminals over the network. Sometimes I use the PC itself, sometimes I use this laptop, sometimes I use a computer at my parents' house. I've visted people and used a live CD.

    It doesn't really matter how big my PC is, if I run it this way. In fact, the smaller the better.

    It would be cool to carry an object that had everything in it (like a phone) instead of connecting to my desktop over the network. I think that would be an improvement.

  • if it's paired up with an appliance that drives the phone from a full-size keyboard and display.

    Yea, right. Isn't that "appliance" basically the computer then, and the cel phone the Internet access or digital modem? I guess if you want to really cripple yourself you can limit the processing power of the appliance to the point that it's useless without the cel phone, but is there any point in doing so?

  • Regrettably the point of making users know less about the technology they are using, as in lines like

    Microsoft Outlook is another good example of simplified computing

    hardly ever is good idea: Networked computers don't become less dangerous just because they end up in the hands of those who don't know what they are doing. Giving the users powerful bloatware with an oversimplified interface that obscures the complexity is not necessarily benign either.

    Even with today's PCs, "grandma at 65" as well as her ten-

  • Why phones work in Japan (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bushcat ( 615449 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @11:17AM (#13644759)
    There are some whopping assumptions here, so bear with the broad brushstrokes. Yes, internet on phones works in Japan. But Japan is way different to the US.

    1) Most people aren't at home most of the time (this is the worst generalization, but it works). So most people are not sat in front of their computer, most of the time.

    2) Most people have long commutes.

    3) Most people don't commute by car, so have time to play with the phone.

    4) PDAs don't do well in Japan. Most phones have PDA-like features, which means there is no need for PDAs but actually this is wrong because most phones don't synch with computers in any meaningful manner (and I'm looking at you, Sharp. In fact, while I'm looking at you, Sharp, I'd like to ask how it's possible for you to engineer such ill-conceived user interfaces into your phones time after time after time. Maybe you need to think on this when Vodafone finally gets a clue and asks Toshiba to lead with new-generation phones. Not that Vodafone will be around in Japan much longer unless it stops the ex-pat/in-pat/Japanese in-fighting and gets to grips with the way its phone providers make better phones for the competition than for Vodafone. Hello NEC).

    5) Cellphone charges are pretty low, in the great scheme of things, so people can use them as recreational devices.

    6) For several of the above reasons, phones are used to coordinate meeting up after school/work, are used on trains where voice is banned, and use to access content to pass the time commuting. They combine elements of recreation and communication tools.

    In terms of business models, i-mode is more business model than technology, and the i-mode approach works well where it has been introduced outside Japan. Compare that with Vodafone's idiot Live! service, which is painful in comparison.

    Well, not enough infoi there to sway anybody, but I'm in the industry and cellphones can be personal computing devices, but only in some or the majority of cultures. I don't think the US is one of those cultures right now: phones are utility devices, rather than fashion statements and recreational devices. Nothing wrong with that. But I think in Japan, gadgets are likely to be in the pocket, whereas in the US they're more likely to be on the desk.

    • 3) Most people don't commute by car, so have time to play with the phone.

      For me, this is the number-one reason I use my cel phone. When I lived in Canada, I could not understand why people would just do text messaging... "Why not just pick up the phone?" Once I came here, I understood perfectly. Sending chatty text messages back and forth with your friends is an easy way to fill up a 45-minute train ride. Not only that, but with the subways moving in and out of the service area, text messaging is pe

  • So they want to have a docking port for a phone. The average user doesn't need much more than 300MHz and 256MB RAM depending on the OS, XP is a resource hog and needs more, so something like Palm OS or the Zaurus OS or maybe even WinCE/Windows Mobile will require a lot less. Other than games the only other need for lots of RAM is playing media, DivX and other compressed video. Yes, it seems lots of people have cell phones these days and more than enough people loose or break them. Would you really want your
    • "Objection: Why not just plug the phone into a PC?"
      "The deeper problems with using an existing or standard PC include the following:"

      "A standard PC offers multiple ways to do any given task, thus creating confusion (e.g., email can be sent from Outlook Express, Outlook, clicking right on a document, using a Web-based mail system such as Gmail or Hotmail)"
      It's called options, I choose to use Thunderbird while others may pick Outlook

      "A standard PC needs to be told who are the users and what are their privileg

  • The Blackberry has come quite far along (Score:3, Informative)

    by invisik ( 227250 ) * on Sunday September 25, 2005 @11:31AM (#13644834)
    It's no full blown computer, but with a few more apps standard (Office apps) and maybe the ability to plug in a USB keychain drive to it I know I wouldn't need much more then that on a regular basis.

    I think most people will still need a PC. I mean, you're not ever going to have a good experience running Photoshop on your phone. I don't think all the attachments on a phone make it a good experience either. I'm not hauling all that junk around all the time just in case if I need to use it. There's no reason why there can't be more client-server or cached apps to access larger systems (CRM's, whatever) that would be perfectly suited on a small screen device.

    I think one issue the US mobile phone companies have to straighten out before any advanced devices can be released is the 3G and other high-bandwidth systems. You can't realistically expect to have your data hosted at a service provider or have reasonable web browsing without it. And you can't expect people to pay $200 a month either.

    Definately these new products need to be Linux-based or at least comaptible. I think the major companies are still a bit scared/confused about the Linux thing, but a lot of great apps come from open-source type projects and even more so in the Linux community. If this doesn't happen, we'd just be at the mercy of the vendor and we won't get very far waiting for them to make us apps.

    Will always be watching...

    -m

  • Or (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jswalter9 ( 695759 )
    Or, perhaps, a palmtop that can function as a cell phone? And I would be remiss not to mention that internet connectivity should continue while using the phone capacity.

    Whoever said that I ask too much?

  • A couple of likely contenders.. (Score:4, Informative)

    by Dynamoo ( 527749 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @11:54AM (#13644959) Homepage
    There are a couple of likely contenders out now or coming soon.. at least in Europe. The HTC Universal [mobilegazette.com] is a Windows Mobile 5.0 smartphone with a QWERTY keyboard, 3G, WiFi and a VGA resolution display. It's a pretty nifty device.. although it's very heavy.

    Prefer Linux? Well, maybe check out the Nokia 770 [shopforphones.co.uk] internet tablet. Despite the "Nokia" label, it's not a phone, but a compact internet tablet that you can use with a compatible Bluetooth phone or a WiFi connection. The screen is 800 pixels wide, which is pretty good for web browsing. I'm pretty sure that they'll be a keyboard available for it in 2006 when it gets its first software update. The Nokia 770 should be hitting the streets very soon for a rumoured $300 or so.

    Of these two competing products, the Nokia is perhaps the more interesting as it has a modular approach and it means that you don't have to lug a half-pound handset around just to make calls. Just how much access to get to the Linux innards is unknown, but really it's just an appliance rather than a full blown computer. You can betcha that I'm going to get one though!

  • Maybe he has a point (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Compuser ( 14899 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @12:02PM (#13645007)
    If my phone had a VGA out and the ability to run Powerpoint or
    Impress or some such (with embedded full speed video and complex
    transition effects - note that my videos are circa 1 Gb in size
    each so you figure 10 Gb of fast storage) then I guess I'd
    consider giving up my laptop.
    Actually no, I also edit my presentations before conferences so
    I'd need things like Adobe Illustrator and Matlab to run. So
    I guess I'd need a full desktop OS with 50 to 100 Gb HDD and
    a processor equivalent of 2.8 GhZ P4. Oh, it also better be able
    to read CD and DVD (and soon Blu-Ray as my lab is buying that as
    soon as it comes out).
    So no, the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of
    everything on a cell phone. In fact most people need to be able
    to read CDs or DVDs so this idea seems rather inadequate.
  • If your only use for a computer was checking email, browing websites, and basic time management stuff. For those of use to do actual work on our PC's, with larger programs, a la matlab, etc etc, a cell phone just doesn't have the same functionality of a pc. To have comparable speed, screen size, and input capability, a PC is still unmatched. I've seen tons of nifty apps for the treo and hiptop platforms, but for the large part, I still need to sit in front of a full size screen and get work done. If I w

  • Its amazing really... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zappepcs ( 820751 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @12:06PM (#13645038) Journal
    that more people continue to think in old ways. What will replace the current plethora of computing devices in the home is a voice/audio interface, and it won't matter what the device looks like. The wireless phone will become the human interface, and when a display is required, the ubiquitous television will suffice. Keyboards are wireless already, as are mice. When required (which won't be much at all) they will interact with the hidden computer that is part of the entertainment center, using the tv for display, and normally the wireless phone as the interface. If its not as simple as gossiping over the fence, it will never get past the religious OS wars, and on to something really important.

    IM-not-so-HO, until we get past fanatacism over small things, we'll never get to the larger more important issues. Computer science is really only beginning... Windows is not the end of development for computers. Think about the voice operated computer systems on Star Trek or any other scifi show. We have a long way to go. The home computer will not be replace by a mobile device... DUH ... anyone that needs that little computing power at home is NOT likely to buy a wireless device that complex.... sheeesh, I wish people would remember the human factors... all of them: form factor, human interface, money/cost, usability, coolness, function/usefulness and a few others that marketing guys at Sony know all about.

  • Right now, you get crappy internet features on phones that you need to pay for. If you got the internet and could plug it into a display+keyboard, I'd use it for maybe doing ebay on the road, and checking my email.

  • It's about data mobility (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kwahoo ( 899178 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @12:47PM (#13645286)
    This is my first post, so be kind... :)

    Versions of his idea have been floating around for some years now. I don't mean to be sour grapes, but not much novelty here, IMHO.

    I think the real need is one of mobility. We're tied to our laptops/desktops because they have OUR applications, OUR environment, configured OUR way, with OUR data. If we could create an appliance that allowed us to carry all of that with us, or network protcols that gave us fast, 24/7 access to those reosurces, then we are not tied to a specific device or place. Right now we are tied to a specific computer for some tasks (e.g. work that requires our personal environment to be productive), or to a specific device (e.g. for listening to music). This is starting to change in exciting ways, but we're certainly not there yet.

    I'm not saying we access all that data with the same device or interface, only that it's mobile. We still might normally access that data through different devices, but we would have more flexibility. So a cell phone is a reasonable candidate for this "hub"-like function, in the so many people carry it with them all the time. A wristwatch might be an even better candidate, although the interface to such a tiny object would be an obstacle.

    In short, I see the issues of data mobility and interface as distinct concerns. /K
  • except the applicance will cost as much as a budget pc, and then what happens when you change phones? oh, well sorry folks, the phone makers will make you buy another 80 dollar appliance connection cable, or the bluetooth will no longer work properly. you think pc interfaces are bad? cell phone interfaces are horrible.
  • For me, a cell phone just doesn't have the resolution I'd like for a "detached" device, and even PDAs are really too small for general purpose computing. Instead, what I've long wanted is a WiFi thin client with at least an 800x600 touch screen and little else (maybe a USB plug). This is what I *hope* Apple is working on when I see their TabletPC-ish design patents. It'd be nice if it was OS independent (unlike what ViewSonic put out), but there are also some compelling features that would require OS sup

  • same thing I told Sharp over 3 years ago-Zaurus (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Locutus ( 9039 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @02:28PM (#13645834)
    This is an excellent idea, if I don't say so myself. Especially since I told Sharp about this years ago when the SL5000 was out to developers. My idea was that they design the Zaurus so that it can slip into a sled on the back of a custom LCD( with keyboard/mouse ). There, it would get power, drive the LCD, have a fullsize keyboard/mouse, and networking. Hey, my mom still uses the IOpener for email, browsing and games, surely the power in a handheld or "smartphone" can provide these features... With a 3G phone, the network is already there.

    It goes with the fact that it makes more sense for iPod users to have the ability to play their music, automatically, to audio devices( car, home stereo, etc ) when in proximity to those devices, instead of having totally different input sources everywhere you go. That's starting to happen in the auto industry with builtin iPod interfaces but a more generic interface is needed. A lowend capability is available with that FM addon and so playback happens in both locations( home and auto ) with just a tuning change. This concept of a handheld also being your computer follows in that concept. The concept of taking YOUR data/information and access personality( applications ) with you. I like it.

    This seems to be is a step toward the STNG( Star Trek: Next Gen ) communicators, only instead of centralized computational capabilies, the computer comes with the wearer. Just a beefed up pendant. Actually, the STNG system could be somewhat emulated with a Bluetooth pendant, with the voice profile, combined with a central voice command system and an office full of SunRays. The SunRay system would have to be using Bluetooth instead of the physical ID system they deploy with now.

    I like the idea and hope it gains backing, though I see the Microsoft / PC sector fighting this like they did the network computer concept. It means fewer Windows PCs being sold, the PC no longer is the holder of YOUR data/information. Also, the idea of SIMPLIFIED computer features instead of more more more is not the one Microsoft way. But, the phone companies are quite large and would love to be THE network, and this would provide another revenue stream in sales of more devices and add-ons for them. This will be fun to watch.

    LoB

  • This is not an article about phones, it's an article about how to sell computers.

    The essential observation is that there is a large, wealthy population (including roughly no one on /.) who treat a computer as an appliance to do a handful of things (Websurf, email, Outlook, Word), and are quite dissatisfied with it, because from that perspective, a Windows PC as standardly setup is not very good -- it exposes too much of its internals, has a UI with too many modes, and has some unnecessary choice. Neverthel
  • The major concrete technical point made in this article is that the file system should be invisible to the user. This has been tried by literally dozens of groups and all of them have so far failed to produce something usable. Maybe when WinFS comes out it will change things. Steve Jobs and other people at Apple have been trying to erase the distinction between open files and saved files for years (it was done in the Newton) but it never caught on. So I think all these academics who advocate the same GUI in
  • ... are belong to one basket.

  • Locking out the amateur programmers, network costs (Score:4, Insightful)

    by unfortunateson ( 527551 ) on Sunday September 25, 2005 @03:25PM (#13646145) Journal
    The biggest disadvantage I see in having my phone be my next computing platform -- aside from miniscule storage (solvable) and tiny screen (less solvable, although the rollable OLEDs have potential to 'fan-out' a more media-friendly viewscreen) -- is that the phone companies lock these things down like the Fort Knox of revenue that they are (OK, lousy mixed metaphor, deal with it).

    F'rinstance: My Verizon-servivced LG VX4400 has a "Brew"-based OS, which is a Java-like system owned by Qualcomm. Qualcomm gives away a compiler, but alas, you can't give away your software without getting it certified by the carriers, which takes some pretty hefty fees. Because of this, I can't even get a Solitaire program on my phone without paying $2 and up a month. No other software is available for upload, even with tools that can transfer data to and from the device, such as BitPim. I don't know if there are any locks on Verizon's Treo's, I would hope it's still basically a Palm device like any other.

    Shareware has made these PC and handheld platforms what they are today. Free and low-cost software for the Palm and Pocket PC make these devices indispensible. Meanwhile, the phone companies have no interest in supporting your use of uncertified software: it costs them time and money to deal with issues they cause, and the more open the system, the bigger vulnerability to malware of all sorts.

    I'm also concerned about cost and performance of networking: high-speed wireless data is starting to trickle in, but at outrageous prices ($80/month for Verizon's service for the Treo). And that's for each handset/computing platform. I've got 6 computers in my house (one for each of the four of us, a company-owned laptop and a media server). There's no way I'd shell out those kind of fees for even the four computers for the four of us.

    More open platforms, such as WinCE-, Palm-, and Linux-based smartphones make this a possibility, but there's got to be some kind of reasonable family data plan: If I pay someone such as SBC (my local phone carrier) for DSL and cell service, is it reasonable that I can get DSL-based wireless service in my house, and WiMax or similar outside, all at one price?
  • I live in Japan and have a Japanese cellphone. I use it about less than 10% of the time. Perhaps, since I work out of a home office, and I am more used to the keyboard and widescreen it is a secondary device for me. But, whenever I travel it is indespenible. It has many functions that work effortlessley. Such as the train route finder. I can calaculate routes and fares on the go to any location in Japan rapidly. It has a SD card in it so I can move some data back and forth between my pc easily. I se

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