Intel and Laptop RAID? 366
Might E. Mouse writes "The next version of Centrino, codenamed Napa, will support RAID. Intel is pushing it as a great way for business users to have added reliability and data backup on their work notebooks. Should boost gaming performance too. Anyone for 2.5GHz Pentium M, GeForce 7800 Go graphics and a 200GB RAID array? "
Work backups (Score:5, Insightful)
If we're plugged into the corporate network, we have software running that will periodically backup everything you place in your 'My Documents' folder or some other such folder. Users know that if they want something backed up, they put their data there.
Re:Work backups (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Work backups (Score:4, Interesting)
Indeed. I learned this in an important, almost "hard" way.
I had my home system on a 2x120GB raid1 setup, with no spare. I made daily full backups to another stand alone disk.
Imagine my surprise when they both started acting up, in the same way, at the same time. Eventually, they both completely died on the same day.
What had happened was my power supply had gone bad, though not died. It was outputting dirty power, and slowly damaged both drives. It also smoked the on board IDE controller, requiring an add on replacement.
Why it did not damage the disk i had backups on, I am not sure. The only thing I can think of is that I always spun the drive down after backups.
So, excellent point you have there.
Re:Work backups (Score:2)
But if lightning strikes your laptop, raid might not help much. If someone steals the machine, raid won't be there to save your data. That is what remote backup is for. But then, of course, some data between backup and the moment of failure will be lost.
So the best bet is t
Re:Work backups (Score:2, Informative)
The first definition of data integrity from wikipedia is: 1. The condition that exists when data is unchanged from its source and has not been accidentally or maliciously modified, altered, or destroyed.
Sounds like a backup to me. Sure it won't stop you from deleting a file from both drives, but it will act as a back-up in the event that a
Re:Work backups (Score:5, Funny)
Which, on a laptop, invariably happens at 9.8m/s^2.
Re:Work backups (Score:3, Informative)
When they do fall for a while they experience a marked deceleration, and then later a huge acceleration again, much higher than g.
This is the latter they don't like
Re:Work backups (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the acceleration they feel by sitting sill on a table for example.
If you're sitting still, you are NOT, I repeat, NOT accelerating. I almost wet my pants reading this. Also, when they fall, they acclerate exatcly at 9.81 m/s^2. They would accelerate more on Jupiter but here on Earth, it's roughly 9.81.
Re:Work backups (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Work backups (Score:2)
Why do this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing beats proper backup and/or syncing tools and procedure.
Re:Why do this? (Score:2)
Which, in the example the editor posted, is a big concern with that hardware.
Some generation of laptops with fast CPU's and crappy everything-else still generate too much heat to be considered reliable. USB ports will stop working, etc. And don't even bring up those cooling pads, cuz if your laptop overheats to the point of freezing or crashing chances are that cooling pad will not make up the difference.
Re:Why do this? (Score:2)
Re:Why do this? (Score:2)
How is this idea:
Take a single hard drive and do a RAID1 on opposite sides of the same platter. You'd have half of the storage but twice the integrity.
Interesting... somewhat (Score:5, Insightful)
I have had 2 HD's (non-raid) for a couple years now. One of which is a 7200 RPM drive.
I don't think this would work as a RAID for power reasons. Unless some new battery technology really takes off... how could this be viable? I couldn't imagine if both drives were used at the same time. My laptop is normally plugged in (that's when I use the 2nd HD). But unplugged... it would be a nightmare.
Until nuclear batteries are perfected... this is vaporware in my mind.
Re:Interesting... somewhat (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Interesting... somewhat (Score:2)
Or all the classes I had in college where they explained that since hard drives were getting bigger and processors were getting faster, there was no point in trying to optimize your code. (Seriously!)
Re:Interesting... somewhat (Score:2)
You can set your drives up in software RAID right now without any trouble, if I'm not mistaken.
Re:Interesting... somewhat (Score:2)
The problem is also the screen. Nobody seems to want a 12" screen anymore. It's 15" or larger.
We want battery eating features... but don't have the power for them.
IMHO this makes giant portable computers. Not true laptops. There is a difference.
Re:Interesting... somewhat (Score:2)
About Time. (Score:2)
Re:About Time. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:About Time. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:About Time. (Score:2)
Re:About Time. (Score:2)
Well, you get performance boost from the striping and a lot of disk space from level 0. You get a read performance boost by reading from which ever disk is idle without too much of a write performance hit (if both writes can be done in parallel), a large disk space hit, a
Re:About Time. (Score:2)
Most RAID controllers offer you the option of 0, 1, 0+1 and 5.
Z.
Don't forget... (Score:5, Insightful)
issues (Score:4, Funny)
p600m w/ 16 hour battery life? (Score:2)
Eventually they'll come to terms with the fact that laptops CANNOT play the newest and greatest games, and they will start releasing laptops that can play strategy/RPGs/Emu's just fine and offer substantially higher battery life.
Transmeta started trying to do this but weren't successful perhaps we'll see it in the coming generations of >$500 laptops.
not quite yet (Score:2)
RAID isn't all about redundancy (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:RAID isn't all about redundancy (Score:2)
Re:RAID isn't all about redundancy (Score:2)
Sounds unnecessary .. (Score:3, Insightful)
Battery life (Score:2, Insightful)
Sure! (Score:2)
Sure, but that definately depends on battery life. RAIDs are old news, go see Hypersonic [hypersonic-pc.com]. But I wouldn't exactly consider those lugs laptops.
question (Score:2)
Re:question (Score:2)
Other than that i can see it adding a fair premium over models without the capabilities
Re:question (Score:2)
what's wrong with... (Score:2)
It's easy to setup and only requires access to the media [e.g. P/S ATA, SCSI, USB, whatever].
Tom
Why not? (Score:3, Interesting)
Additionally, Intel's new chips are supposedly VERY power efficient. If they can make future laptops with RAID sans the power problems... great.
But the real issue is probably COST. If you don't know what RAID is you aren't going to buy it....and its not going to increase cost THAT MUCH. But for those of us who DO know what raid is and either want increased performance or reliability.... there is a market! I don't really like having limited options when I'm making a choice, so having the OPTION of RAID is exactly what I WANTED. --Matt Wong
Re:Why not? (Score:2)
Re:Why not? (Score:2)
Then it's not RAID (Score:2)
I doubt that RAID0 will be a popular configuration for this however that's what I'd do because I hate the slowness of my laptop's HD and I backup plenty often.
That said, RAID0 generaly does a good deal better than 20% faster. In my experiance, as an owner of 3 RAID arrays all in RAID0 I found 50% better was the minimum. Although on who knows, right?
That said, most people wouldn't want RAID0 in a laptop they want RAID1 so that
Laptop Raid (Score:2, Interesting)
Nice! (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure lots of "dont need it" posts today, only downside is battery life.
Screw games, work on some server logs and try to do some statstics, give me faster HD access now. (I upgraded my 5200 to a 7200 HD, night and day difference.)
Ass Backwards (Score:4, Insightful)
Now where would I like to see a laptop raid? In a mobile media workstation! Video editors, sound guys, they'd love the extra throughput of a raid 0 that fits in their briefcase.
I don't get it? ; onboard ; memory ; solid state? (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, won't this be bad for battery life having a second 4200RPM drive in your notebook? Not to mention weight?
Third, any money says it'll use the onboard memory for its RAID controller or maybe even software RAID, meaning it, like onboard video will slow your computer down.
For an argument for it, lets turn to my former partner:
This doesn't seem to make much sense. In an age of GBe and 10GBe ethernet, wi-max, storage of files across corporate networks over the Internet, why is RAID in a laptop useful?
Personally, I'd like to see more money put into developing SOLID STATE hard drives that use less power, produce less heat, and have no moving parts- such as a flash drive, only bigger
-M
Re:I don't get it? ; onboard ; memory ; solid stat (Score:2)
First, this feature is probably targeted at "Desktop Replacement Users" whose users care less about weight and battery life and more about their penis length^H^H computer features and hard drive space. The other group is the paranoid about data security, who want a constant backup hard drive to keep their laptop going even if a drive fails.
One note about battery life, I think the power consumed by a drive (assuming constant mass distribution) is proportional to rpm^{3/2} which means that a 7200 RPM drive
Re:I don't get it? ; onboard ; memory ; solid stat (Score:2)
Ptshah!
Re:I don't get it? ; onboard ; memory ; solid stat (Score:3, Interesting)
If you are willing to pay $50 per gigabyte of solid state mass storage, go right on ahead. I'll continue to pay 1% of that per gigabyte of mechanical storage until a truly competitive alternative emerges.
Keep in mind that the costs of fabbing 1GB of flash memory is going to be on the same order of magnitude as the cost of fabb
Actually sounds like a bad idea (Score:2)
For the gamer (or other individual who would set them to striping instead of mirroring), if one drive has a 20% chance of failing after three years, then two have a 36% chance of failing. It would almost double the likelihood of a castrophic loss!
Plus, I haven't seen a laptop in years that has quick-swappable drives, which
typical intel (Score:2, Interesting)
MMX and SSE came in to boost the CPU's multimedia performance, so that people would be less tempted to take an extra, non-intel, chip to do that (for which they failed...).
The Centrino was an all-in-one Intel bundle so that you wouldn't buy somewhere else to get Wifi on your laptop.
Now it's RAID. I'm surprised, though, that they'd consider RAID a big enough market to include it in their chip. Or is it rapidly expanding with home-users?
Boost gaming performance? (Score:2)
Ok, sure, RAID can help the loading times in the game, but they aren't so prevalent compared to the actual gaming time.
Has "gaming performance" become such a catch-phrase?
Or are people so jumpy now that they can't stand the load time at the beginning of the level?
Re:Boost gaming performance? (Score:2)
(obviously, I'm a bit jumpy on the submit button...)
Furthermore, what does RAID and gaming have to do with laptops?
What is a laptop supposed to be used for? Computing on the move. Importa
and the batt life will be ... ? (Score:2)
a T42 that normally yields 4.5hrs of productivity will now be more like 3hrs...
good if u're using it as a desktop replacement
for road warriors, might be a bit heavy....
You're All Crazy! (Score:2)
Intel, you make cheap fast chips, stick too it. (Score:2)
RAID isn't a backup, its a performance tool. It makes a system more resilliant to _a_single_rare_ failure but NOT the majority of data failures. Having a redudant drive just sucks battery life.
RAID is great on a server where the disks are being used a _lot_ where high redudancy is needed becuase downtime is expensive but there still needs to be an offsite backup solution.
If someone is worried (as they should b
The battery argument? (Score:2)
I don't know about anyone else, but it is a rare moment indeed that I would use a laptop on battery power for any serious work. Browsing the internet at a coffee shop or something... sure. But serious work requiring concentration? I'm reaching for the power adapter and looking for an outlet.
I think a laptop mirror RAID is a nice idea. When in battery mode, only the main drive stays act
Quit asking why they're doing it (Score:2)
Who needs firewire? I mean, really, if you're going to edit video, why would you do it on a laptop with its miserably small, dim screen, slow internal drives, and short battery life?
Who needs a TV tuner? Why fork over $2,000 for a laptop that can't show a decent picture with a DirecTV tuner or a satellite box, and even then you're looking at a tiny screen? You can get a bigger and better TV for $150 from Wal-Mart.
The answer
This is not about laptops (Score:2, Insightful)
Where It's At (Score:2)
Don't believe the fakeraid (Score:2)
The only real good (for linux users at least) that comes from this announce
Coming Soon! Boat Anchors from Intel! (Score:2)
Never be cold again!
Only $400 trillion USD!
Offsite Backups (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Offsite Backups (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Offsite Backups (Score:2)
Why not integrate into the harddrive? (Score:2)
I miss laptops. (Score:5, Interesting)
not for me thank you very much.... (Score:2)
I do like the idea, I just don't think it's practical unless we get much smaller and lighter hard drives and longer lasting batteries. Heck, I think this IBM A31 laptop I have is too heavy.
How the hell will it boost gaming performance? (Score:3, Interesting)
- A.P.
Re:WTF for? (Score:4, Insightful)
BTW, I'll humbly mention that I predicted this a year and a half ago [slashdot.org], so at least there's prior art should they patent "RAID on a laptop".
Re:WTF for? (Score:5, Interesting)
At the university I work some of the more overhyped IT courses lend laptops to their students. Of the about 1000 laptops in circulation there are maby 3-4 dead HDs a year, and it's all due to generous amounts of gravity. :D
/greger
Re:WTF for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:WTF for? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:WTF for? (Score:5, Insightful)
RAID doesn't replace a backup. You still need to run backups. All it means is that if one drive fails, you can still keep working as it won't affect the entire machine.
Which would you rather have?
Re:WTF for? (Score:2)
And how much will that monster weigh?
Two harddrives? Two everythings! (Score:3, Insightful)
I think a better solution -- although more expensive, surely -- would be to stow an extra laptop in your baggage, configured similarly/ identically. Store your unique data on both the internal drive and a removable
Re:WTF for? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think that the loss of data argument is as compelling as the loss of use ar
Re:WTF for? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:WTF for? (Score:5, Interesting)
Automation (Score:2)
Windows XP updates itself, installs updates, and reboots on its own if you don't click in a minutes notice. It also takes over the 'shut down' button and makes it 'shut down and install updates', doing it only at the times where you just need to bolt (there's a bypass option but habit takes over sometimes).
Backups should be scheduled on all corporate laptops for example. Plug them into the Internet and they check if the speed is worthy (broadband) and starts backing
Re:WTF for? (Score:3, Interesting)
Not everyone will need/want it. Personally I'd keep mine in a RAID-0 config because laptop drives are low RPM.
Re:WTF for? (Score:2)
4200RPM drives are still available, but I'd wager are now quite a bit less popular since 5400RPM drives tend to cost the same.
Re:WTF for? (Score:2)
Personally I'd keep mine in a RAID-0 config because laptop drives are low RPM.
Personally, I'd use RAID-1, and get the same increased responsiveness during reads (which are the ones you generally notice).
Re:WTF for? (Score:4, Informative)
Others will do it for the extra reliability. Nightly backups might be good enough for you, but as I said, not everyone uses their laptops for the sort of work you do.
Re:WTF for? (Score:2)
Exactly.
It'd be a wonderful thing to have - one could easily learn, test and demo misc. enterprise apps off a laptop computer with virtualization software instead of using a bulky server or remote connection.
For example, people do that now with VMWare and a Firewire external disk. Internal RAID0 is a cheaper and more elegant way to do that.
Re:WTF for? (Score:3, Informative)
If you have backups and keep them at the home/office then you will be screwed if you are away at a conference and your hard disk drive fails on the night before you have to make a Powerpoint presentation.
Having a RAID Level 1 architecture, gives you the chance to have two hard-disk drives with identical copies of the same information. At least if one fails, you still have the other.
Although, I would hope that both hard
Re:WTF for? (Score:2)
You raise a good point, though. Laptops are already pretty crowded and internally hot, and adding another drive won't help. I also can't imagine it being any good for battery life.
But as others have pointed out, if you drop the thing both drives run the risk of getting damaged. This seems to be only a feature to protect against normal failures and n
Re:WTF for? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm still trying to figure out what is so special about including RAID in a laptop though. HP has been doing it with their upper model level laptops for at least a year now. One of my friends came back from the army with his, it had dual SATA 250s in it. Fast as all hell. Naturally battery life suffered tremendously. I think he'd be lucky to get an hour out of it.
Re:WTF for? (Score:5, Informative)
I've got an $1900 bill from Ontrack Data Recovery sitting next to me that would explain the situation nicely. In the business world, not everyone is a tech-savvy geek with a broadband connection or a secure backup technique.
Re:WTF for? (Score:4, Insightful)
And how would having RAID on your laptop prevented that bill? Let's take a look:
1. If you use RAID-0, you get increased performance but 50% higher chance of failure. Wouldn't have helped, so the rest of this assumes RAID-1
2. Assuming failure was caused by dropped laptop: Minor chance that second drive would have survived when first one didn't.
3. Assuming failure was caused by spilled beverage burning out the drive: Again, minor chance that second drive wouldn't have been affected as well.
4. Assuming failure was caused by overheating of machine: If both drives are the same model their tolerances would similar, so again there's a minor chance the second drive would have survived.
5. Assuming failure was due to drive just going bad: Very good chance second drive would have survived, assuming this was some kind of manufacturing defect/bad component, and not brought about by usage & environmental conditions.
So out of 4 scenarios, only 1 gives you a good chance that having a RAID-1 array would have saved you. And what does RAID-1 cost you?
1. Decreased battery life
2. Increased heat
3. Larger case
4. More weight
5. More expensive
Let's take a look at your other options:
1. USB flash memory - quick, small, pretty reliable. Great for datasets 512 MB; very little power usage.
2. CDRW - Available standard on most commercial laptops. Burns a backup CD in about 10 minutes, start to finish. Good solution for datasets 700 mb. Can carry backup/restore CD if you needed to rebuild on the road. Downside: CDs can be easy to scratch, although slim cases can protect against that in not much more space than the CD itself. Uses power when it's running, but otherwise little (if any) power draw.
3. USB 2.0 Hard Drive: Using a laptop HD and a 2.5" case, you can get good performance in a small, external package. Plug in once a day, do your backup, unplug it & put it back in your bag. A little more expensive than options 1 & 2, a little larger, but can get you much higher capacity (80gb now for 2.5" HDs?), and as a bonus, you get an extra drive you could swap in if your main drive fails. This also uses roughly equivalent power to a RAID array when you're using it, but if you just do backups on it then it's not running constantly.
These are all widely-available technologies available right now, that you don't have to be a "tech-savvy geek" to use - everything supports drag & drop.
I'm not saying RAID doesn't have any place at all in laptops - I just don't see the advantage of it for most business/home-class users; and I don't think data redundancy is as big of a factor as some think it would be.
Re:WTF for? (Score:3, Funny)
Because people want convenience (read: are lazy) and want to just turn on and off and never worry about until smoke comes out, but a tech (with a big S on his blue Spandex) says, "Nothing to worry about! Thanks to RAID!"
The extra drive will just make your battery last a little less longer, so you can turn your snarling, foaming visage to purch
Re:WTF for? (Score:5, Insightful)
Intel has a good chance of consolidating the underlying infrastructure across all their product lines, which would be a massive win and really benefit from economies of scale.
For Blade Servers (Score:2, Interesting)
On a side note, the napa northbridge might soon be integrated into the pentium-m die, now they will have a fast cache and memory controller: http://anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i= [anandtech.com]
Re:Works for me... but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think in the next 2 years we will be witnessing the death of desktop PC's and replacement with laptops in most circumstances as costs get closer and designs merge.
I, for one, will not welcome our laptop overlords until laptop manufacturors come up with a single set of standards. I want to be able to customize my laptop the same way I can customize my whitebox PC.
Re:Works for me... but... (Score:2, Interesting)
What? That's unprofitable? (Score:3, Insightful)
Profit for them, sucks to be us... why would they change it?
Re:Laptop RAID.. AWESOME. (Score:2, Funny)
You were thinking about it huh? A couple of days ago you say? It's a good thing i got to the patent office first then... MUAHAHAHA!
Re:Reliability or Performance (Score:2)