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Data Storage

High-End, High-Capacity SATA-150 Roundup 234

Maxtorn writes This review is published to cover a "300GB Maxtor drive, but provides a roundup covering a few high end, high capacity drives from Maxtor, Seagate, and Hitachi. Synthetic / real world performance, thermal results, and noise output are all covered on drives ranging from 200-500GB in capacity and with 8-16MB of cache memory. A solid reference for those shopping for a new drive."
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High-End, High-Capacity SATA-150 Roundup

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  • by Limburgher ( 523006 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:08PM (#13305107) Homepage Journal
    The review isn't clear, but does this drive have both interfaces, or is it available in two flavours?

    Now I like a drive I can use in more than way. I can use this on my current ATA aetup, and if I upgrade motherboards, I can just switch cables and move on.

    • Answered my own question with the data sheet on Maxtor's site. It's two flavours, not a drive with two connectors.
      • Just an interesting FYI, the Western Digital SATA drives have only one connector for data (SATA), but for some reason have two connectors for power! The first is the new SATA power connector, while the second is an old fashioned hard drive/cdrom power connector. Because of this, I didn't realize that SATA had a new power cable when I built my new computer, and I initially had the drives plugged into the old-fashioned drive connectors.

        The entire time I was wondering what those new-fangled connectors coming o
        • I didn't realize there was a new connector either. Well, until I ordered a Seagate SATA drive and realized there was no place to plug in a molex connector. Had to wait 3 days till the adapters came in. I hate waiting.

          Now, could somebody explain why the hell they made a new power connector?
          • Hot plugging was the chief reason I believe. Don't know who in their right mind would hot-swap an internal drive while the system was on tho...
            • If you have a RAID-1 array and a server that has to be on all the time. Then you remove the "bad" hard drive and insert a "good" one while the system is on. An internal drive can be hot-swapped if it is put in a special craddle with a handle and a lock. This has been the case with SCSI drives for a long time.
              • An internal drive can be hot-swapped if it is put in a special craddle with a handle and a lock.

                Oh no, I do recall once doing some work on one of my older computers, and I did remove my CD-RW drive with the power on. It sparked, the system shut down, and my drive was dead, but i definitely "hot swapped" it. :-)
                • Must have been a pretty old system. On most of my (at home) hardware now, I'm not afraid to reseat the pci cards (Nic/modem/etc.), nor plug/unplug ide/power for the cdroms while they are running. Yeah I know it's insane, but I've never had a problem. It's fun living on the edge.
                • Unless the drives were SCSI and were meant to be "hot swapped" you shouldn't do it. I "hot swapped" an Athlon CPU before, I was testing a motherboard and forgot to turn the power off, I removed the CPU and I think that killed it.
      • It's two flavours, not a drive with two connectors.

        I think the drive probably tastes the same, regardless of connector, though the SATA drive might taste better because the connector doesn't try poking holes in the toungue.
    • The review isn't clear, but does this drive have both interfaces, or is it available in two flavours?

      The impression I got is that it is available in two flavours. The reson I got this impression is that if you look at the closeup photo showing the connection end of the drive (on page 2, IIRC), you will see that it has SATA, but no PATA connections. It's right around the paragraph about the traditional power connector still being there.

  • by ackthpt ( 218170 ) * on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:08PM (#13305108) Homepage Journal
    A look at the evaluation (from my humble pointy head):

    Pros:

    • Fastest SATA-150 drive tested to date
    No issue with speed, it's good.

    • Several capacities available, with 300GB being the highest
    Not unexpected from and industry leader.

    • Quiet operation
    Weighty consideration for the home or office, a brace of noisy drives is unwelcome while trying to watch video or listen to music on the computer.

    • Supports Native Command Queuing
    Fine.

    • Excellent value, only 48 cents per GB
    Really this is a minor concern, unless you're building a storage rack and only care bang/buck. If I want cool and quiet, I'll pay extra for it.

    • 16 MB of cache memory provides a nice performance boost
    The bottleneck isn't likely to be your cache it's your MB and OS, but always nice to have more cache.

    Cons:

    • Runs a bit warmer than other drives
    Might warrant an extra fan if running a brace or more, potentially negating and quiet running. I've got an old Quantum drive you could fry an egg on and the heat effectively is killing the bearing lubricant.

    • Three year warranty is good, but not the best
    Really, what good is a warranty, other than it's DOA? Does anyone do backups anymore? How's that MTBF? A warranty is the least of my concerns if my drive dies in the first year.
    • by SSpade ( 549608 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:20PM (#13305236) Homepage
      • Three year warranty is good, but not the best
      Really, what good is a warranty, other than it's DOA? Does anyone do backups anymore? How's that MTBF? A warranty is the least of my concerns if my drive dies in the first year.

      Drives will die, eventually. Design decisions can affect the shape of the death curve, and how much you spend in QA can affect the number that will die within the first $X months.

      A warranty provides a (strong) financial incentive for the manufacturer to make sure that very, very few die in that first few years. With a one year warranty there's no incentive to push the death curve out much beyond 18 months.

      That doesn't mean that a short warrantied drive will die quickly, but it's likely that a drive with a longer warranty has had more attention paid to expected lifespan.

      • Good point. My 3 year old IBM 60GXP Deskstar ("Deathstar") just died taking with it lots of data, digitized movies, music and tons of installed applicatoin. Not all have been backed-up. When I bought the drive I thought that IBM makes reliable hardware and I would pay more for quality. As it turned out, the Deskstar series, have been having problems and are known to fail now. IBM dumped their hard drive unit faster than a hot potato. Not sure if the failure of the Deathstars is to blame.

        Anyway my point i

      • Reliability (Score:3, Interesting)

        by WalksOnDirt ( 704461 )
        http://www.storagereview.com/ [storagereview.com] is now trying to put reliability data in their reviews. Not sure how well it works, but it at least seems better than nothing. They have not reviewed this drive yet, but you can check out how some recent drives from all the major manufacturers are doing.
    • Really, what good is a warranty, other than it's DOA? Does anyone do backups anymore? How's that MTBF? A warranty is the least of my concerns if my drive dies in the first year.

      A high MTBF is fine and dandy, but only an estimate. The length of the warranty, on the other hand, is the drive manufacturer putting their money where their mouth is. I consider a longer warranty to indicate that a company is more willing to take a risk on their drive than a company issuing a shorter warranty.

    • * Three year warranty is good, but not the best

      Really, what good is a warranty, other than it's DOA? Does anyone do backups anymore? How's that MTBF? A warranty is the least of my concerns if my drive dies in the first year.


      Seagate drives carry a 5 year warranty. I'm willing to bet those drives are better assembled than the 1-year warranty crap that's currently being shipped out.

      (Yes, I had a 300gb Maxtor drive die on me in 14 months)
      • Maxtor has had reliability issues for some time now. I remember when I was a young teen and my father liked Maxtor because they were cheap and he did back-ups. When one died - we had a lot so there were deaths frequently - we'd send it back to them, warrantee or not. If it was under warrantee then we'd get a new one for free, if not then we had to pay substantially less than had we not returned the drive.

        Seagate, on the other hand, I don't remember ever having to return one of their drives. I remember the

      • Seagate drives carry a 5 year warranty. I'm willing to bet those drives are better assembled than the 1-year warranty crap that's currently being shipped out.

        Oh, could be...

        Could also be a betting game.

        How many drives, if they had a 10 year warrantee do you think would actually make it back on a warrantee return

        • Within 1 year
        • 2 years
        • 3 years
        • ...
        • 10 years

        Could be Seagate knows and just tossed that out there. I mean, geez who's still buying 40 GB drives and those were only a couple years ago, right? Pe

        • Expecting anyone to actually keep records of their computer part purchases over on year (let alone 5 minutes after the drive was pulled from it's carton) is another study I'd like to see.

          Drives are stamped with manufacture date. I haven't had to produce any receipts to get broken drives exchanged for new.

          If there's a company that does require the reciept, I'd like to hear about it so I can avoid them like the plague.

          To me a hard drive is the one computer component I *do* want a good warranty on, beca

      • Just sent a new 300-GB Seagate Barracuda SATA drive (7200.8, 5 year warranty) back to Zipzoomfly. Total operation time before it failed completely? 22 days (running 24/7). The failed drive was in a well-cooled RAID-1 configuration with an identical Seagate and that drive is doing just fine. I've had Maxtors and Hitachis fail too, but never that fast. Regardless of manufacturer, I now take a "Trust, But Mirror" approach to all drives I use.
    • I have owned five in the last three years or so and every last one of them has died while under warranty. The two most recent failures were the very fashionable two platter 6Y160 drives (which I, like a fool, explicitly sought out) and the first one died within six months. At the time they didn't have a bootable ISO of their software on the site, either, it was "run windows and do this test or no RMA for you" so the damn thing sat on the shelf until about a month ago when the SECOND "new" drive started losi
  • Buy Seagate! (Score:5, Informative)

    by wpmegee ( 325603 ) <wpmegee@@@yahoo...com> on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:09PM (#13305120)
    I always try to buy seagate, ~$10 price difference, and the 5-year warranty is priceless. You only get a 3-year warranty on most other drives, or 1 year if you buy retail Western Digital.

    And if you see Maxtor, run like the wind!
    • Re:Buy Seagate! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by calibanDNS ( 32250 ) <(brad_staton) (at) (hotmail.com)> on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:22PM (#13305260)
      Offtopic, but I've never gotten why everyone is so down on Maxtor drives. Maybe it's just me, but Maxtors have been the most reliable drives in my experience. I just got my first two Seagate drives about 3 months ago, so I can't claim to make a good judgement about them yet, but they're doing better than I would expect out of a Western Digital. In the past decade I've had at least 5 WD drives fail on me. Someone once told me that I had to be abusing the case that 3 of these WDs failed in, but in that same case I had a 540MB Maxtor drive that was running fine (and seeing more use than the WDs). Actually, that 540MB Maxtor is STILL running just fine to this day (over 10 years after I got it). I'll be buying Maxtor (and probably Seagate) drives for the forseeable future and I've sworn off WD.
      • I'm down on Maxtor because of the three Maxtor drives I've owned, two have catastrophically died within months of the warrantee expiring. I have not had this experience with drives from other manufacturers.
      • I've only owned one maxtor, got burned on a 5400rpm 30gb way back when - received 3 faulty drives in a row - could've been the Dell system it was in, which I subsequently junked. Also had 2 WDs fail on me, one of which was my fault.
      • Almost in every PC I used from 1990 with a Maxtor hard drive it got ruined. It must be 4 or 5 disks.
        I never got an issue with Quantum fireballs, though a bigfoot broked.
      • My guess would be because they are very sensitive to overheating. I've got a few 'servers' here at work that some nut built using 5 Maxtor PATA drives in each enclosure, packed right next to each other. Each and every single one of the 6 servers built that way has had a catastrophic drive failure since they were installed about a year ago.

        You can't really blame Maxtor, though their drives do tend to produce quite a bit of heat. Most manufacturers state very clearly on their websites that you should not al

      • I have not had any dead Maxtor for quite a while, (and I'm averaging having one dead HD every 2-3 month for a few years now). I currently own 8 Maxtor HDs range from 80GB-300GB in capacity, I also own Seagate, Western Digital, and Fujitsu HDs

        I do tend to abuse (as in usage, but not in physical means) HDs alot, and I've burn out more Deathstars(IDE) and Cheetahs(SCSI) then anyone I can remember. and I've seen my fair share of dead Seagates and WDs too.

        from my experience talking to people dealing about dea
      • Hurray for anicdotal evidence!

        I've had the exact opposite experience as you. All my WD drives from the past 10 years (including the 200MB one!) are still spinning in machines right now, while Maxtor drives tend to die on me within the first 6-12 months of operation.
      • Using the 540 megabyte Maxtor drive you bought 10 years ago to gauge the reliability of their current drives isn't wise. The design of course has changed a lot as would have their production facilities.

        Recently my company got me a dell XPS Gen 3 with three Maxtor 160gb hard drives (two in a RAID 1 array). Just a few months after I got it, both drives failed, the ones in the RAID 1 mirror. That blew, though I was able to recover data from one of the drives. I also just recently had one of my external 2

        • Just to be clear, the 540MB drive isn't the only drive I'm using for reference. I also have 5GB, 20GB, and 160GB drives from Maxtor that are performing very well. I consider the 5GB old in terms of hard drives, and some poeple would say that the 20GB is old too. At any rate, from the 4 drives that I've got (covering over 10 years of Maxtor's product line) I haven't had a single problem. The WDs I've had fail on me ranged from a 1.2GB to a 40GB, so I feel that I gave them a fair chance before swearing th
          • Whoa, you've even gone all the way up to their 160GB model? Sheesh, with your data set, you might as well be extrapolating based on who made the best stone tablets.

            Maxtor had a good run from around 500MB-100GB in storage space; many of the drives produced during that period were excellent, and much of the goodwill people have for the brand is based on that period. Somewhere around 200GB, their designs changed enough that the Maxtor drives stopped being even slightly reliable. This was also the same time
      • yep, my experience has been largely the same as yours. I'm still running with the same Maxtor 20GB drive I bought six years ago; three WD hard drives have failed on me in that time span, and the Maxtors I bought to replace them have been running like champs.

        </aol>
      • I bought a Maxtor 120Gig drive about a year ago and it already died on me a little over a week ago. I had it full. FULL! And it died on me.

        This is the first harddrive that has ever died on me in 15+ years of owning my own personal computer(s).

        Does anyone know anything about resurrecting data from a dead Maxtor? Seriously!

        Because I really don't want to spend all of that time re-ripping all of my CDs to OGGs again. And it's not just music that I lost: all of my backups of software apps, games, programming pro
        • How did it die? I just went through my third 200GB Maxtor (all warranty replaced). I used dd_rhelp wrapper for dd_rescue to obtain as much data as possible. I still ended up with thousands of lost+found files, but it's better than nothing.
        • Does anyone know anything about resurrecting data from a dead Maxtor? Seriously!

          Very much depends on how it died...

          Did the controller roast? Try swapping it for another from the same exact model (and batch, if possible)... Only viable when the data has a value greater than the cost of a throw-away drive, but it works (Or at least it used to... Not sure how newer drives would work, since they keep track of bad spots on the disk and automatically avoid them).

          Does it not spin up? Drive bearings seem l
      • It wasn't that long ago that Maxtor was considered the best and Seagates were called "Sea-crates" and considered the worst.

    • Western Digital (Score:2, Informative)

      WD now has 3 year minimum warranty and 5 year for enterprise drives:

      http://www.wdc.com/en/company/releases/PressReleas e.asp?release= [wdc.com]{264FE90B-5808-489E-9DEC-05106E24AD7 9}
    • I always try to buy seagate, ~$10 price difference, and the 5-year warranty is priceless. You only get a 3-year warranty on most other drives, or 1 year if you buy retail Western Digital.

      And if you see Maxtor, run like the wind!


      I can see buying seagate... esp ones with a 5 or 7 year warranty. Going mailorder it's a very decent option.

      But that 1 year warranty isn't exclusive to Western Digital... I just bought a 200gig Maxtor Drive and it only has a 1 year warranty, but the price was $80. I could
  • I really only care about longevity and reliability anymore. Any drive on the market is going to be big enough to store what I want. They're going to be cheap enough that I can afford them, too. And I'm accustomed to dealing with the speed bottleneck that the hard drive represents. They're getting faster every day anyhow, but I can live with whatever for the most part. It's not like I'm running a commercial database server out of my house.

    Cost, capacity, speed, and noise are all good to know about, but
    • I'm not an expert on this but I've read that basically all the SATA interfaces whether on the MOBO or in plug-in cards have their throughput limited to no more than IDE by the bus speed.

      anyone care to comment on that? If so what's the point other than a groovy glow in the dark cable. Just buy IDE if you are a home user.

    • RAID1 is one thing, but it's redundancy, still not a true backup.

      Don't use Raid1. Raid does nothing to prevent the #1 cause (IME) for data recovery: accidental deletion. Instead, take that second drive and make weekly full backups with nightly incrementals.

      Also, keep the stuff you care about (photos, tax records) in a certain folder and burn it to a DVD every once in a while, encrypted. Leave the DVD with a relative or somewhere else you have a good chance of getting to it later.

      I think this wil

  • by spworley ( 121031 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:12PM (#13305144)
    After you click through the first two ad-cluttered pages, you start to see some results. They're presented in a single bar graph with dark shaded gradients.
    The graph uses the same X axis to compare three totally different quantities: CPU percentage, access time in milliseconds, and bandwidth in MB/sec. As a bonus, note that smaller values for CPU % and access time are good, but larger values of bandwidth are good.
    Edward Tufte, where are you?
    • by Evro ( 18923 )
      Slashdot used to be a great place to find obscure cool info, benefiting from millions of people browsing different sites and filtering it so the coolest stuff bubbled to the top. Now it seems to be THE place for new sites to send their articles, as a link from Slashdot = guaranteed ad views. So we get newbie sites trying anything and everything to get their site mentioned on Slashdot, which explains many of the current problems with Slashdot, and the tech news industry in general.
  • I just gotta say (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bogie ( 31020 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:16PM (#13305195) Journal
    And I know nobody is impressed by hard drive space anymore, but 300GB for only $139 truly does boggle the mind. We're at the $500 = one Terabyte point. That's nuts.
    • What are you going to use to back it up? Because I'll just about guarantee you that if you are counting on three Maxtors to provide that TB you ain't gonna have it for long.

      You could use four and a dedicated controller card and be under a thousand dollars for 900GB and you might actually have that data past the first disc failure... or you could buy three Seagates for about a hundred bucks more than the Maxtors and have a much better chance of keeping your data around until the next upgrade.
      • Simple, a backup drive. Just buy one a year to backup a Raid array with, you'll only use it a few times a year (perhaps once a week) and then after that you can shelve it, should last far longer than most other media. And even if it were to die on you in some way data recovery services could extract the data from the HD far easier than most other media as well (I've never heard of CD recovery services being as effective and if a tape shreds you are going to have a hell of a time getting stuff off it).
        • It's not $500 for a TB because you are adding a second hard drive to the mix. what you describe is basically a RAID1 with the "redundant drive" stored on a shelf. If you are going to back up a 1TB 3 disc RAID on those portable drives then you need three of them, too or you need a redundant computer to house your redudnant RAID.

          Any of that stuff costs a lot more than 500 bucks.

          • Although I personally prefer Raid 0 keeping an extra drive on the shelf as you started with, there's nothing wrong with having a second set of four disks (it would take four drives for a TB of storage, not three) that you back up to once a week.

            Note that I did not say the total would still be $500, I was just describing a good way to back it up. Yes it's another $500 but it's optional (if you don't care about your stuff much). Personally I'd prefer half a TB of stuff with a backup than a full TB with none
  • Get several of these!

    -make a personal backup of archive.org [archive.org]
    -Store digital photos of every square inch of your neighborhood.
    -ASCII pr0n. lots and lots of ASCII pr0n.

    "300 GB ought to be enough for anybody"
    • 300GB is less than 30 hours of DV footage. I was amazed how quickly I filled up the 320GB drive I use for video editing. The 80GB drive in my laptop, however, seems more than large enough for everything else.
      • HDV (high-def digital video) is even worse. I got a powermac with a 400GB drive about a month ago. A few video projects later, it's half-full. Now there is even a more affordable consumer high-def Sony Handycam (see this [google.com]), more and more people will discover that modern hard drives are just not big enough.

        The raw bit-rate in camera of HDV is 25Mb, but this is expanded, at least on Macs, into Apple Intermediate Format which takes up significantly more space again.

        Before I got the powermac, I really struggle

    • How does one back up that much data?
      • How does one back up that much data?

        Print it all out and store it in 3-ring binders, we wouldn't want to deprive future generations of our ASCII pr0n.

        Of course you'll need space to keep the binders - I suggest Nevada, they have lots of open space and not too much rain. Rain is the natural enemy of ASCII pr0n printouts.
  • by Junior J. Junior III ( 192702 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:18PM (#13305215) Homepage
    Did the editors or the submitter even read the article? The article is just a review of the Maxtor 300GB drive. It's hardly a comparison of several models and manufacturers.
    • What's even more pathetic is the submitter WROTE the article... Hopefully the "review" generated some good ad traffic since that will be the last time I visit them.

      HJ
  • These 300GB drives should be very nice for SATA large volume hw raid arrays. A 12 way 3ware card gives a 3.6 TB array, not bad for $5g. (We have several large arrays that are used for storing data. Not good for web or file serving but great to store data that is used routinely.)
  • It shouldn't be that hard for the manufacturers to be able to install more cache memory, like 64MB or even 128MB. The 8MB disks has been around for about two years now. NCQ has been around for a while too...

    The most interesting thing on that page was a link to a hard disk encryption [cypherix.com] software in an ad.

    Compare it with the Seagate Cheetah [seagate.com] wich offers 96MB/s sustained data transfer rate while the sustained transfer rate is undocumented on the Diamond Max. Same goes for the average seek time that is OK, now

    • I don't really see the advantage of a large cache on the disk. I would much rather have the cache on a 2GB/s connection to the CPU than a 150MB/s one. Bung an extra few hundred MBs of main memory, and you are likely to see more of an improvement than adding a small amount of RAM to the disk - particularly since the main RAM can be used for other things when you are not using it as cache.
    • There's an open source program called truecrypt [truecrypt.org] that seems to work on the same principal as the one in your add. I've been using it for a while now and it works great.
  • by DigitalReverend ( 901909 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @12:25PM (#13305286)
    I find it humorous when a person is obvious who they work for or who they are supporters of. Just look at the opening line.

    Maxtorn writes...

    Nice username and he submits a story about Maxtor drives. Perhaps we'll get stories from Seagated, AppleJack or Solarister next.

  • Anyone know the current status of booting from SATA? From what I see so far, it requires a bit of kernel hacking to get the modern distros to boot from one. A major pain actually...

    I know the driver support is there for mounting from an existing distro. I guess I just want to use my nice new SATA drive as my bootable drive. At least on Ubuntu...
    • by martok ( 7123 )

      I can't speak to Ubunto, but SATA works fine using the Sarge install. Just boot the linux26 target rather than linux as the default Sarge install target uses Linux 2.4 which though does support SATA, doesn't support the wealth of chipsets 2.6 does. I've done several installs on SAATA root and all have gone well.

      • I have some cheap servers that have SATA "raid" cards in them which are nothing more than adaptec chipsets that might do a little but of accelleration with the right software drivers.

        Sarge sees them as seperate drives despite the raid controller reporting them as 1 logical.

        I was able to setup software mirroring with no problems. Speed is not great.
    • by ZagNuts ( 789429 )
      Any modern distro will boot from a sata drive. I have been booting from one in Redhat Enterprise for 2 years and I am writing from an Ubuntu install booted from a sata drive.
    • When I built my current system, two years old now, I was unable to find any Linux distro that would install on it. Frankly I was shocked. FreeBSD had no trouble with my SATA drives. None at all. Which is the opposite one would expect reading the Slashdot FUD.

      Whenever I inquired in a help forum about how to install Linux on a SATA drive, I was always given a convoluted sequence of steps to negotiate. It wasn't the kernel's fault, because the kernel had SATA support. It was the distros who decided that no one
  • Fluff (Score:2, Informative)

    Where is WD? This 'review' seems like fanboy fluff to me. The access time on the Maxtor is the worst of all the drives compared and no where is this mentioned in the conclusion.

    For real hard drive reviews try storagereview.com.
  • ". . . but for that money you get 1.5 times the storage capacity (300GB vs 200GB), double the cache memory (16MB vs 8MB), and the performance edge proven by the tests run in this review [over seagate]. Sounds like a good deal to me!"

    Let's see, after actually reading the article, the Maxtor drive didn't beat the Seagate 2007.8 drive in ANY of the real-world tests and a 5 year warranty through Seagate is the best warranty I've ever seen. They've never rejected replacement from me on any drive, SCSI or IDE.
  • I'm sorry to say this, but I can hardly find it an interesting review. There are many, many sites that review these kind of drives, so I cannot see this warrant a special article all by itself.

    Nor can I understand the conclusion. Especially in the warranty, but also in the access time, this drive is beat by the Seagate. Still, it gets the highest praise (as therefore 5 stars).

    Then there are some other problems with the article:
    - SATA300 not tested (would be unfair for the competetion according to the author
  • by Call Me Black Cloud ( 616282 ) on Friday August 12, 2005 @01:04PM (#13305660)

    My favorite part is when the submitter reviews his own review:

    A solid reference for those shopping for a new drive.

    In other news, Rob Schneider says "Deuce Bigalow 2" is "a comedic tour-de-force that will leave you wanting more."

    Dan Brown, author of "The DaVinci Code", further chimed in saying, "My book is 100% factual, and the Catholic Church is teh suX0r!!!1!!"

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