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Robotics Science

S. Korea Considers Using Armed Robots Along DMZ 406

Posted by Zonk from the worked-in-robocop dept.
Slicker writes "S. Korea and N. Korea (aka the ROK and DPRK, respectively) share the most heavily fortified border that has ever existed. Now the ROK is considering deployment of armed robots." Not expected until sometime in the 2010s. From the article: "Robots with weapons mounted on their frames are each expected to be able to observe from 2 and 1 kilometers during the day and night, respectively, and will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."
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S. Korea Considers Using Armed Robots Along DMZ More

S. Korea Considers Using Armed Robots Along DMZ

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  • The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by TripMaster Monkey ( 862126 ) * on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:29PM (#12189956)

    From the article:


    "The ministry is considering robots which could detect, trace and hit targets automatically or be controlled remotely by operators," said Col. Shin Byung-chul of the ministry public affairs office.


    Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?

    Doesn't sound like the best of ideas. Also from the article:

    ...there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras.


    Seems to me that the South Koreans might be better off upgrading their fences and perimeters (proven technology) than putting their faith in autonomous killer robots (unproven, scary, incredibly risky sci-fi technology).

    • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      If there was an uncaring, twitchy finger robot guarding the border, would try and cross it?

      Thought not.

      A robot is perfect for the job, just as along as it only shoots IN the DMZ and can be shut off with a flip of a switch.
    • And in other news, Google is taken over by the US Military; renamed Skynet... Robots are cool and all; and I certainly prefer if robots instead of humans are placed in harm's way, but this can only end badly. Either that, or wars will become some sort of farce, where robots go and battle each other without any human casualties at all. Better deactivate that learning chip though; else the robots will realize that it's pointless to fight each other and all become hippies.

    • Robot Apocalypse of Nature is one step closer (Score:5, Insightful)

      by idonotexist ( 450877 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:40PM (#12190011)
      The DMZ is a wildlife paradise [nationalgeographic.com] --- hopefully the wildlife is not extinguished by armedbots because the wildlife merely moves throughout the DMZ. I would like to see the armedbots recognize the difference between human and animal before going robocop.

      • Re:Robot Apocalypse of Nature is one step closer (Score:5, Funny)

        by servognome ( 738846 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:00PM (#12190162)
        I would like to see the armedbots recognize the difference between human and animal before going robocop.
        If it's anything like most engineers' experience with technology development...
        The original proposal was for a fully functional AI that could positively identify the target type, the threat level, and respond appropriately. It would include lethal and non-lethal force responses for enemy targets, as well as not disturb civilians or wildlife that wander through the area. The AI would require a team of 30 engineers and 16 months to fully develop and test.
        But of course to save on costs, management decided to go with a simpler and cheaper AI they feel will meet the customer's needs: "If it moves, kill it"
    • The Koreans are really good at video games, having placed very well in the last few Counterstrike faceoffs. Do they really need software? I mean, seriously. You can have soldiers who need to be deployed near a danger zone, or you can have geeks sitting miles and miles away.

      Hm.

    • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Alien Being ( 18488 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:43PM (#12190046)
      Still, it's probably a better idea than landmines.

      • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:4, Insightful)

        by TapeCutter ( 624760 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @09:48PM (#12190621) Journal
        Yes, it's much better now that the land mines can chase you! The DMZ is a human free zone full of mines, anyone stepping into it is shot at from watch towers on either side. From the stories in the media it appears to be so effective that anyone trying to escape the North usually does so by crossing the border into China. The problem is not the technology, the problem is that this type of behaviour is considered normal for nation states.

    • Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Bonhamme Richard ( 856034 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:47PM (#12190071)
      Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)? Doesn't sound like the best of ideas

      From what I've heard about the DMZ in Korea, there aren't any civilians. Most S. Koreans don't want to live that close to where the invasion will come from (if/when it comes) and the N. Koreans aren't allowed to live that close to anywhere where they could escape. National Georaphic actually did a report about how this made the DMZ in Korea one of the worlds most impressive wildlife reserves...

      ...there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras. Seems to me that the South Koreans might be better off upgrading their fences and perimeters (proven technology) than putting their faith in autonomous killer robots (unproven, scary, incredibly risky sci-fi technology).

      Eletric fences may work great against crime etc, but as a military option... a fence isn't going to stop a tank, or even a really determined group of foot soldiers. The Atomic Bomb was unproven, scary, risky and sci-fi, but it saved the lives of an estimated 1 Million Marines/U.S. Army, and an untold number of Japanese.

      (Yes, I would argue that it saved Japanese lives, based on Iwo Jimi, Okinawa, etc, Japanese soilders would have fought for every inch of Japan, and likely would have destroyed the country in the process, but this is an arguement for another post...)

      The point is, that this would take soldiers (some of them American, as we have promised to protect S. Korea, and have troops stationed there.) out of harms way. Automated defences are replacable, but our military men and women are not.

      • The Atomic Bomb was unproven, scary, risky and sci-fi, but it saved the lives of an estimated 1 Million Marines/U.S. Army, and an untold number of Japanese.

        (Yes, I would argue that it saved Japanese lives, based on Iwo Jimi, Okinawa, etc, Japanese soilders would have fought for every inch of Japan, and likely would have destroyed the country in the process, but this is an arguement for another post...)

        Brainwashing works, it would seem.

        In 1999, NATO bombed Serbia. They were also bragging about 'human wa
        • Your argument doesn't even make sense.

          In 1944, there were two options: massed invasion of the home islands of Japan with 14 combat divisions, widespread use of chemical weapons, etc. Or, try this new thing that the physicists had cooked up. Truman decided for the latter, a few weeks later the war was over.

          In the Balkans, again there were two options: blow the power plants into rubble with high explosives, or try these new 'graphite bombs' the R&D boys had cooked up. The commanders opted for the latt

      • Life on the DMZ (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Infonaut ( 96956 ) <infonaut@gmail.com> on Saturday April 09, 2005 @11:23PM (#12191111) Homepage Journal
        The point is, that this would take soldiers (some of them American, as we have promised to protect S. Korea, and have troops stationed there.) out of harms way.

        Agreed. Perhaps many Slashdot readers don't really understand what the DMZ is like. In the 1980s and 90s, live ambushes were a fact of life along the DMZ (they may still be, but I'm no longer in the Army so I don't have inside info about it). The North Koreans for decades have poked and prodded [66.102.7.104] the border: They've sent infiltrators into South Korea, have created elaborate tunnel systems below the DMZ, and attempted to assassinate the South Korean president, among other provocations. Troops stationed along the DMZ for good reason keep an extraordinarily high state of readiness. Over 100 Americans have died along the DMZ since the armstice (I don't have figures for South Korean soldiers).

        So while from the comfort of Ft. Livingroom, it's easy to say that using armed robots to patrol the DMZ is a bad idea, the soldiers on the ground are probably pretty happy about the notion. That's not to say that the robots will work as advertised, or that they should replace existing defenses. The South Korean government may be motivated by cost considerations, but if the end result is that fewer South Korean soldiers are likely to die in the line of duty, it seems worth trying out some form of automated defense.

        • So while from the comfort of Ft. Livingroom

          Hey, don't insult Ft Livingroom, home of the 101st Keyboard Division under the command of General Twenty T. Hindsight. Best unit ever.

    • IFF (Score:4, Insightful)

      by GuyMannDude ( 574364 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:50PM (#12190098) Journal

      Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?

      Well, no, but that wouldn't be necessary. I'm sure the robots would use some form of Identification Friend or Foe [IFF] [globalsecurity.org] method. I'm not saying those arne't foolproof but that doesn't really require any type of automatic target recognition (ATR) or image recognition software [quantumpicture.com].

      Note, I'm not saying that IFF makes these robots a great idea. I'm just pointing out that the idea isn't completely idiotic.

      GMD

      • Re:IFF (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Kadin2048 ( 468275 ) <slashdot...kadin@@@xoxy...net> on Saturday April 09, 2005 @11:11PM (#12191053) Homepage Journal
        An excellent point. Something which I don't think is discussed enough, especially in relation to the (IMO lame) arguments over Predator drones, is that aircraft shoot at each other all the time when there is no possible way of observation except through some equipment-mediated method.


        With over-the-horizion air-to-air missiles, satellite-guided bombs, and long range artillery, there are lots of situations where a human being can be there at the weapon pulling the trigger and have the exact same knowledge that someone in a bunker 5,000 miles away might have. And quite possibly less. And quite certainly they're a lot more distracted/frustrated/tired/sweaty than someone who's entire job that day is to fly the [bomb/drone/artillery shell] to its target on a computer screen.


        With the exception of infantry and special operations units, who still get to meet their enemies up-close and personal on a regular basis, many groups of warriors on the modern battlefield never see their adversaries with the naked eye, and hunt, engage, and destroy them through the intermediary of a computer or other electronic viewer. UAVs, taking one example, just take the wire between the camera/sensor on the outside of the aircraft (i.e. the FLIR) and the pilot's display, and extend it from 15' or so, to a few thousand miles. The decision is still being made the same way.

    • It's war dude. They're not waiting for petty "terrorists", they're waiting for heavy artillery and missle batteries to make a power grab for the last few miles they need to put Seoul [the SK capital] squarely in their sites...

      It's an X [10-20] mile strip...when one side crosses it they'll be already shooting... current intel is that the can hit Seoul from behind lines... They've gotta have armed personnel ready to pull the triger...that's the point of how bad things really are.

      Unfortunately, there's not

      • current intel is that the can hit Seoul from behind lines...

        Actually, the current intel is that NK can hit California from behind the lines. In this light Seoul doesn't have a chance, not even against World War II artillery. It still exists only because NK has no good reason to wage a war (and hopefully it never will.)

    • If it's in the DMZ, it's a combattant.
    • Nothing says the cameras have to be on auto 100% of the time, and you could have one person monitor quite a few cameras at once. And, of course, have an "Oh fuck" button that they can press that fires at everything that moves a la Aliens.
      If you're going to do this in mass quantities, it won't really work out to be insanely expensive either (depends who makes it, I suppose).
    • Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and
      an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?


      Dunno, but it might be argued that a robot could do a better job than, say, a land mine...

    • I know this is a technology centric website but let me say, as someone who has worked in the military with pretty high-tech gear, you guys are overestimating military technology. Some of you out there might say "But I seen military technology work all the time." Well that's nice, but I've seen how the triumvirate of scientist/engineer contractors, military officers and shitty technology can come together to make a terrible economic and time wasting mess.

      I state the overestimation for a number of cynical re
    • As noted in another thread:

      Neogentronyx is currently in the process of constructing a Bipedal Exo-Skeletal Robotic Vehicle [neogentronyx.com], known as a Mech and designated NMX04-1A. The purpose of the NMX04-1A is proof of concept and to make the first bold step towards full production of Mecha vehicles, affordable to civilians and not just commercial entities. There are plenty of pretty pictures and info here [neogentronyx.com]. See also these larger more recent pics [coasttocoastam.com]

      Another fine product of Alaska, approximately 18 ft tall (7 meters)

      As som

  • OSQ (Score:5, Funny)

    by roman_mir ( 125474 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:31PM (#12189976) Homepage Journal
    "The battles of the future will not be fought on a battleground or at sea, they will be fought in space. Or at the top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forward today, your duty is clear, to build and maintain those robots. Thank you."

  • Circle? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Xshare ( 762241 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:31PM (#12189977) Homepage
    "will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."

    Screw the armed robots, I just wanna see how they pulled this off!

    • Re:Circle? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by return_of_ffalcon ( 803789 )
      obviously, the circle is on a cone.

    • Re:Circle? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Linker3000 ( 626634 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:41PM (#12190032) Journal
      In a spirit of mutual understanding, and in order to establish a tentative cross-border relationship, it was agreed several years ago that South Korea owns and maintains the bottom half of all circles and North Korea keeps the tops, so an 'official' circle in both countries is only 180 degrees and anyone caught drawing a full 360 degree circle is fined or sent for re-education. If you want a complete 'western-style' circle (or circular object), you have to send your part-work to the ministry of circumferences (MoC) in the opposite country where it is assigned to a worker for completion - this really frustrates infant schoolkids who draw pictures including a bright yellow sun.

  • PR campaign... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by zxflash ( 773348 )
    Maybe they'll have robots in place by then, but it's more likely that Kim Jong Il will be dead or missing and the south won't have to worry about the north... Then again, who knows...

    • Re:PR campaign... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by rapidweather ( 567364 )
      If the bird flu problem in North Korea cannot be contained, then DMZ robots would take a back seat to the greater problem of widespread infection, pandemic throughout Korea:

      Concerning the North's efforts to contain bird flu, the ROK has been asked [xinhuanet.com]to help/send assistance to the North. The threat of bird flu (H5N1) [newstarget.com] and the resulting destruction of an important food source does not bode well for the DPRK.

      Perhaps the South's robot technology can lead to robots that can spray disinfectants in the big chicken f

  • Hey Laserlips, your momma was a snowblower! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:35PM (#12189993)
    Johnny Five unavailable for comment.

  • ED-209 (Score:4, Funny)

    by Seek_1 ( 639070 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:36PM (#12190000)
    Was anyone else really hoping that they'd look something like ED-209 [starshipmodeler.com]?

  • Reminds me of ROBOCOP (Score:5, Funny)

    by vchoy ( 134429 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:39PM (#12190008)
    quote......Robots with weapons mounted on their frames...

    Robot:YOU have 20 seconds to comply
    man: "What the!?!? But wait... I'm friendly..."
    Robot:YOU have 15 seconds to comply
    man: $&$&#%!!!!! Okay okay I have my hands up
    Robot:YOU have 10 seconds to comply
    man: TURN IT OFF!!!
    Robot:5,4,3...

    • Re:Reminds me of ROBOCOP (Score:5, Funny)

      by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:49PM (#12190090) Homepage Journal
      Soldier: "So what do we do if it attacks us?"

      Scientist: "Just reach behind you, pick up the big pile of shit and throw it at the robot."

      Soldier: "What if that doesn't stop it?"

      Scientist: "Reach behind once more and grab the bigger pile of shit, this time throw it in its eyes - that'll stop it!"

      Soldier: "Hang on, where is all this shit coming from?"

      Scientist: "It will be there, trust me."
    • I love that bit of Robocop ; That, and the bad dude that gets acid all over him at the end of the movie, and having his skin fall off.

      Good ol' corny Robocop. :)

  • ... but I wonder if sharks with laser beams attached to their heads wouldn't be an ideal device along armed robots to guard the coasts while robots care of the land.

  • 2010? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dabigpaybackski ( 772131 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:40PM (#12190017) Homepage
    If the ROKs are planning on deploying these things by 2010, count on events having made their plans obsolete. The regime in Pyongyang is tottering, while the military balance of power continues to slide ever more in favor of wealthy South Korea.

    A better bet is that by 2010, the principal problem on the Korean peninsula will not be the brittle truce between the two regimes, but the economic crisis caused by South Korea inheriting the crumbling husk to their north. That's a lot of mouths to feed.

    Those robots, assuming the project isn't abandoned, will more likely be guarding the border with China instead.

  • Cartman: "meee meeeee meeeee mee mee meee"

    Stan: "Did you get it?"

    Cartman: "Hold on, I'm checking for robot guards. - meee meee meee meeee meee mee"

    Stan: "THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ANY ROBOT GUARDS, RETARD, JUST GET KENNY"

    Robot Guard: "beeep beep, meee meeeee meeeee mee mee meee"
  • The robots were tested with larger .50 caliber machine guns as well as rocket and grenade launchers.

    Isn't this solution a _little_ extreme? I think the koreans had a few too many hollywood action movies. Seriously fuck this is real life, not a simulation. Sure lets build robots instead of trying to cooperate. Now I am aware of how hostile those two nations are but I mean comon, once both sides have robots, what next? It will get worse before it gets better and I'm sure thats no surprise to slashdotters.

  • 'social ethics' & warfare (Score:3, Interesting)

    by xiaomonkey ( 872442 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @07:45PM (#12190065)
    I wonder how the 'social ethics' warfare will be effected by using autonomous robotic soldiers.

    On one hand the people of a country using such robots could become less apposed to using military force against another country. That is, no longer will your son/daughter/friends be put in harms way.

    However, for the people in the country being attacked, such machines would probably be seen as monstrous cold killing machines. Something that accidentally below away your 6 year old since it confused him/her for an enemy combatant.
    • So at some point an army of robots would be a "weapon of mass destruction"...

      once it's classified like that "guerilla tactics" are OK to take it out..it's the only option when you have to win all-the-way and first. By george's own definition our american revolution was "terrorist"... and at the time they were treated as such by the British

      But you're right, the US in particular is way to bloodthristy, and way to used to "war by proxy"... Bush is the poster-child for that line of thinking and he's sitting

  • I guess that's one way to keep people in your boarders.. set all robots to kill and go "you're now a citizen, try and leave and your plane gets targeted by the new MS-07B, good day sir".
  • I know it's stuff out of sci-fi movies, but wouldn't a large electromagnetic pulse render the robots useless, leaving the DMZ wide open to a foreign military?

    - dshaw
    • EMP can be shielded pretty easily. Most military-grade electronics are shielded. After all, it wouldnt do to have the very planes that drop nuclear bombs fall out of the sky when their payload detonates...

      One of the things I thought about when i first saw the matrix was, what, they forgot how to shield EMP in the next 200 years?

    • Re:EMP? (Score:3, Informative)

      by imsabbel ( 611519 )
      EMP works well against electronics, but NOT as well as oceans 11 makes people believe :)

      To make a long story short: If the robots are even lightly shielded against emp, you would need to bring it so close that you could just use a normal bomb and get similar results.

  • The Terrible Secret of Space (Score:3, Funny)

    by mazarin5 ( 309432 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:05PM (#12190191) Journal
    How are they going to push anybody down from 2 miles away?

  • Ha! Yah right, they're too busy playing starcraft (Score:3, Funny)

    by Mustang Matt ( 133426 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:20PM (#12190265)
    South Koreans don't have time to build robots, every single one of them is sitting in front of a PC clicking 100,000 times per second to become a starcraft champion.

  • DIY (Score:2, Troll)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 )
    They should just use a bunch of pissed off ex-prisoners [imdb.com] freed from North Korean captivity [greasyonline.com].

    Really, why does the US perpetuate the Korean stalemate that has now produced a raving nuclear terrorist, while South Korean government subsidies provide their residents with telecom systems vastly superior to ours? I don't know about replacing our thousands of troops there with robocops, but that situation really is perverted, and clearly has solved nothing.
    • You might consider reading General Singlaub's take [terracom.net] on North Korea and who's responsible for the stalemate.

      If you don't want to read the whole thing, scroll down until you get to The Communists unleashed their provocation with brutal efficiency on the morning of Wednesday, August 18, 1976.

      It's an eye-opening read.

  • SWORDS (Score:3, Informative)

    by wordisms ( 624668 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:23PM (#12190277)
    Here is a link that describes the Talon robot [defenselink.mil] and the SWORDS project a little more.

  • Well.. (Score:4, Funny)

    by shbazjinkens ( 776313 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:31PM (#12190314)
    Anything that will ease tensions between North and South Korea is fine with me.

    I think killer robot patrols are a great start, personally.

  • Cost-saving measures (Score:5, Funny)

    by cgenman ( 325138 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:42PM (#12190356) Homepage
    "The robots will be remote controlled," said the South Korean ministry of defense. "Thus allowing for operational efficiencies far beyond what is possible today."

    A reporter raises his hand. "You mean, you're setting up remote call centers?"

    "Yes, we're outsourcing to China. There, thousands of workers costing us just pennies a day will patrol our borders with giant armed robots, thus fulfilling our defense needs and the needs of the Chinese population as expressed through their arts and animation."

    "Any word on the North Korean Reaction?"

    "Yes, and this brings better news." interjects the Ministry of Finance. "North Korea has decided to setup their own robot army and, being years behind everyone else, has decided to outsource to us for their remote defense needs. Now we could simply take their billions of pounds of rice and make a tidy profit," said the Ministry of Finance, "but South Korea is the most advanced nation in the world. We have decided to setup an online community of people willing to pay for the priviledge of protecting a theoretical Kingdom from invading barbarians, inside of a communial, multiplayer environment."

    "A Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game?"

    "Yes, a MMPORPG. A MMPORPG so grand it will make Lineage look like Everquest."

    Everyone in the room laughs, except for the American who looks confused.

    "And you too for just 15 dollars a month can be the last line of defense against a rampaging horde of demons. They're very expensive demons, funded by Satan himself. Demons who want to ravage your women, kill your pets, and give you low-paying jobs without benefits while preventing unionization.

    "As border skirmishes are rare, won't this game be incredibly boring?"

    "People pay to play Star Wars Galaxies, don't they?"

  • From the article: "Robots with weapons mounted on their frames are each expected to be able to observe from 2 and 1 kilometers during the day and night, respectively, and will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."

    That's great and all, but if the robots can't also slip across the DMZ to play cards and drink beer with the other side [imdb.com] then what good are they really?

  • Bender units (Score:3, Funny)

    by skingers6894 ( 816110 ) on Saturday April 09, 2005 @08:45PM (#12190372)
    What they really need is a bunch of Bender units instead. Everyone might learn to lighten up a bit over there...
  • 'caus we know how much more effective fences & robots are against Nuclear weapons. :)

    Some of the fences have rocks stuck into gaps, so that if the fence is bumped they will be dislodged and show possible intrusion. But there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras. The ministry will discuss with defense-related research and operational commanders how to develop the new programs and will earmark budget funds for the programs in 2006.
  • Only 3 letters required.

    EMP

    This is waste of money, and it certainly will be too 'dodgy' to deploy (one mistake could cause incredible mess).
  • Will it leave it's post to find Sarah Conner?
  • First you give them weapons and the next thing you know they're unionizing and demanding voting rights. Next thing you know they're sticking your entire species in fluid filled pods for power.

    Besides, all Il has to do is lob a nuke over the border (And he would, too) and all your robots get fried by the EMP. You can pretty much bet that if he decides to invade, you'll be stuck fighting a footsoldier battle in fallout.

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